1. Comment #389335 by black wolf on June 19, 2009 at 12:16 pm

I propose affirmative action:
We give privileged access to black people with equal qualification. Don't let anybody tell you they found it too difficult getting into atheism because all the white people were favored. :)

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2. Comment #389354 by Chris_The_Positivist on June 19, 2009 at 12:57 pm

I am not qualified to comment on how difficult it is to come out as an unbeliever in theism within the black community, but I don't think there are any negative pressures from an atheist community to shun anyone of any race or ethnicity. As most of us are well informed thanks to evolutionary biologists such as Richard Dawkins, we can see any prejudice based on race as utterly ridiculous given how we are all African Apes and one species, this nullifying any idiotic objection to equal opportunity. To think for yourself does not require permission in any case.

Again though, I am ignorant of this particular experience and of the real reasons why, there might not be quite so many non believers of other ethnicities, proclaiming aloud their non-belief. I strongly doubt the idea of prejudice coming from any well educated, free thinking atheist community though.

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3. Comment #389358 by HenryFord on June 19, 2009 at 1:06 pm

So where are all these "white atheist communities" then? Where do us "white folk" get together and gleefully delight at excluding others?

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4. Comment #389359 by bamafreethinker on June 19, 2009 at 1:09 pm

That woman has one expansive vocabulary... or one heluva thesaurus... Don't know when I've seen so many big words in one place.

There are land-mines placed throughout this interview as well.

EDIT: I smiled at the "white folk" references as well : )

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5. Comment #389360 by AllanW on June 19, 2009 at 1:13 pm

I guess I'll read the articles later this weekend but just how banal is the premise?

Let's rephrase it;

What is it like to be a Chinese non-stamp collector?
What is it like to be a white non-basketball player?
What is it like to be an African non-chess player?

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6. Comment #389362 by bamafreethinker on June 19, 2009 at 1:18 pm

Living in the bible belt, I am completely surrounded by "religious folk"... white, black, Hispanic, friends, neighbors, enemies, family. I only personally know ONE skeptic and he's deep in the closet. It's hell sometimes, but I learn to deal with it.

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7. Comment #389364 by Rev.JeffroBodean on June 19, 2009 at 1:23 pm

That's what we need, more divisiveness in the atheist community.

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8. Comment #389371 by ANTIcarrot on June 19, 2009 at 1:39 pm

"Hence, the European- American atheist community can't be truly inclusive unless there is some recognition of how privilege and positionality undergird the very articulation of atheism as an ideological space that empowers white folk to deconstruct the cultural tethers of organized religion, without having their authorial right to do so be questioned."

Is she channeling '1984' here or not? I can't tell...

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9. Comment #389372 by ewaldrep on June 19, 2009 at 1:40 pm

The interview was enjoyable but I also do not understand the inclusion of white atheist communities as discrete entities and especially those that exert influence over the expression of black atheists, or fail to understand the pressures that affect the African American community.
As Chris the Positivist mentioned, most atheists are well educated and accept that all humans are 99.9% similar regardless of any meaningless apparent differences. There is more within group variance that between group variance.
In addition, the black female author of Infidel has been welcomed and specifically mentioned in debates and other places by the "white atheist" leaders. Not so because she is black and female but because she is making a worthwhile contribution to the discourse of the role of religion in our society.

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10. Comment #389375 by Wosret on June 19, 2009 at 1:56 pm

Wow, that was a really enjoyable read. Sikivu Hutchinson sure can write. Extremely eloquent writer.

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11. Comment #389377 by clodhopper on June 19, 2009 at 1:58 pm

"Hence, the European- American atheist community can't be truly inclusive unless there is some recognition of how privilege and positionality undergird the very articulation of atheism as an ideological space that empowers white folk to deconstruct the cultural tethers of organized religion, without having their authorial right to do so be questioned."

Yeah right. You priveleged white atheist bullshitters. Stop writing books questioning dogs existence until I've authorised your diploma in ideological racial right on-ness. WHAT are you thinking off! Tch.

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12. Comment #389391 by beelzebub on June 19, 2009 at 2:38 pm

Wow, talk about cultural differences! Just what is this American 'thing' with race?
I, and probably 99% of Europeans, don't give a fig as to who is 'black' or 'red' or 'pink' or whatever, I just listen/read what they have to say. I might disagree with them, but that is not predicated on any personal attribute they may have. Can you imagine an article bemoaning the '...ideological space that empowers TALL folk'? or '...ideological space that empowers brown-haired folk'?
What (almost racist) nonsense this article is!
Let's have no more of it....

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13. Comment #389392 by prolibertas on June 19, 2009 at 2:44 pm

'Rather than allow white atheists to control the terms of debate...'

I'm sick of brown-haired atheists controlling the terms of the debate. Where are the prominent spokespeople representing the unique interests of blonde atheists?

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14. Comment #389401 by Crapsquire on June 19, 2009 at 3:14 pm

Greta says:

We're too willing to let our most prominent leaders and speakers mostly be white

I don't know about the rest of you but I tried my damnedest to make Christopher Hitchens black but it just wouldn't take and when I tried to make Sam Harris Asian all I could achieve was getting some pro-meditation crap. I will however take some small credit for letting Dawkins be white and more importantly I most definitely let Ayaan Hirsi Ali be black; Her book Infidel puts her up there as the Fifth Horseman.

By the way, in the near future I'm going to try letting Dennett be an Australian aboriginal. If anyone cares to join me in this I think it works like prayer -- you have to reach a critical mass and then, well,... it should be just as effective!

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15. Comment #389405 by clodhopper on June 19, 2009 at 3:27 pm

"......but a fundamental wariness will remain if white atheist communities continue to maintain a paternalistic stance toward both the dissemination of atheist discourse and the critique of African American belief systems.

Yeah right again, atheist dickheads. Start making arrangements to target 'people of colour' with your godless ideology instead of keeping it all to yourselves in your whitey superiority. Make it so 'people of colour' can access and share in these books and websites and for gods sake, get yourselves some colour you pasty faced heathens.

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16. Comment #389406 by nails_ on June 19, 2009 at 3:27 pm

“I am not qualified to comment on how difficult it is to come out as an unbeliever in theism within the black community, but I don't think there are any negative pressures from an atheist community to shun anyone of any race or ethnicity. As most of us are well informed thanks to evolutionary biologists such as Richard Dawkins, we can see any prejudice based on race as utterly ridiculous given how we are all African Apes and one species, this nullifying any idiotic objection to equal opportunity. To think for yourself does not require permission in any case.”

The fact that you give out your opinion of what kind of pressure there is for people of color within the community is kind of proof of the” paternalistic setting the parameters for discussion” thing discussed in the article. I really don’t agree with the idea that atheists and skeptics present a positive place for black people by virtue of understanding biology. White people opt to erase and ignore the experiences of people of color by default, I used to do it and damn near everyone agreed with my opinion of things. Stuff like equating the use of the n word with being called a cracker, proclaiming jokes/cartoons/statements to not be racist because of the assumed intent of the author rather than how actual black people react to it (this is especially horrible, as if the person who made it has to say it is racist before it is), ignoring the different experiences we all have because of race under the guise of being blind to race… I have seen it a lot within skeptic groups. It takes a lot more than not hating black people to be an ally of racial equality.

We are biologically all the same animal, but there are fundamental differences in the way that people grow up and experience the world due to race. Race is a totally imaginary line but it has extremely real consequences that need to be seen and talked about. It is the nurture component of living and there is a racial element just as economic status and culture play a part in the people we are. The way that I grew up viewing things like police, or education, or beauty and all kinds of other things were heavily influenced by being white and growing up with a bunch of other white people, with a culture that made my reality seem like the normal or standard version of living in America. There is a power dynamic present in social situations that is very hard for people in the more privileged groups to understand because it is emotionally easier not to. It is socially discouraged to aknowledge the existance of it at all. Bell hooks did a lot of writing about how black men in racial struggles often ignored the plight of women, and that feminist groups often ignored the experiences of black women, when in reality those issues are more often than not connected to each other. It is important to read the perspectives of people who have lived through it, if it doesn’t change your perception of these issues you will at least be familiar with perspectives about race and racism that you probably would not otherwise be exposed to.


"Nothing to do with skin color. More to do with education. Income, class, race -- are secondary factors as far as how much ingroup pressure there may be to be religious. Don't like the pressure -- change your peer group to independent thinking, highly literate, politically conscious, writer-teachers.
"

holy ignorance batman. I don't even know where to begin with the idea that all those poor brown people should just get friends like yours and then everything would be ok. some of them are worrying about stuff like not going to bed hungry or caring for their siblings or avoiding being a victim of crime. living in poverty isn't a freaking inconvenience it is a really big deal that makes stuff like finding the best friends instead of the ones available to you kind of a silly concern in comparison. There are heaps of information about the kind of reality people face when they live in poverty and how much more likely you are to deal with it if you are a person of color. Go look into it sometime.


income and class have racial elements, and in a lot of situations (like being involved in the criminal justice system or the healthcare system) make the upper class status of some black people irrelevant. do you think it is a coincidence that black people make up a dispropotionately high number of the poor and undereducated, or is there something wrong with them£

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17. Comment #389415 by nails_ on June 19, 2009 at 5:38 pm

I never said they were not capable of critical thinking, I never even implied it. I said that the concerns that you expect disadvantaged groups to have are somewhat trivial in comparison to the demands that things like racism and poverty present to them.

I never said all poor people are black and I never said that all black people are poor. I never even implied it. I said that there was a connection between the two things, and you would have to be blind not to see it if you go and look at the informtation available about poverty.

the 'education is the answer' thing is a lot different than the 'just change your peer group' thing. i am all for improving education, but it just isn't that simple in practice. There are social barriers that make things much much more difficult for some groups than others. outside of something being wrong with black people I don't see another explanation for their disproprotionate misfortune.

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18. Comment #389435 by Neil Schipper on June 19, 2009 at 9:07 pm

As others have suggested (and they got the quotes just right!), Sikivu Hutchinson is a pretentious windbag. Her big claim: "I'm offended".. not unlike what we hear from some other familiar quarters.

What is she actually asking for? Between the lines: expand the Cultural Studies & Gender Studies and Black Studies curricula to include courses on black atheists and feminist atheists, courses for which she and "experts" like her get to dominate the hiring committees.

The pomo radical feminists and sensitivity trainers have too much influence in the schools and universities, and have contributed (without claiming they are the most important cause) to the lowering of intellectual standards.

From her bio:
http://humanrelations.co.la.ca.us/about/staff.htm

Dr. Hutchinson has a doctorate in Performance Studies from New York University and a Bachelors of Art in anthropology from the University of California at Los Angeles. She has lectured on Critical Studies at California Institute of the Arts, where she developed and taught courses on Ethnic Studies and Women's Studies and has lectured on Liberal Studies at California State University Los Angeles. She also has developed and taught courses on racial identity and post modernism at Cal Arts, and has published several scholarly works on race and gender, including "Moving to the Center: Culturally Relevant Education and Student Agency in LAUSD," in California English, April 2002.

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19. Comment #389490 by AdamMil on June 20, 2009 at 3:28 am

I looked forward to reading this interview, but it seems that most of the actual content is vague criticism of white male atheists that I couldn't quite make sense of. Perhaps somebody else can figure out what she means?

[As usual] the assumption that white male thinkers and writers are the definitive spokespeople on atheism is highly problematic.

Well, she's black and female, and she is being asked to think and write about atheism. If she can produce works as eloquent as Dawkins' and Harris', I don't see any barrier to her becoming a definitive spokesperson. If she knows of others, why not recommend them? I suspect they simply don't exist, so how can we be blamed for assuming what seems to be the reality?

Hence, the European-American atheist community can't be truly inclusive unless there is some recognition of how privilege and positionality undergird the very articulation of atheism as an ideological space that empowers white folk to deconstruct the cultural tethers of organized religion, without having their authorial right to do so be questioned.

Perhaps I'm not smart enough to deconstruct that, but it seems to be saying very little, very vaguely. Again, how about a concrete recommendation?

... a fundamental wariness will remain if white atheist communities continue to maintain a paternalistic stance toward both the dissemination of atheist discourse and the critique of African American belief systems.

I really wish she'd give a clear example, but as it is, I can't help but think she's seeing racism where it just doesn't exist.

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20. Comment #389520 by KRKBAB on June 20, 2009 at 5:57 am

At one time, when I was younger and more insecure, I could be made to feel guilty about being a white male, but not anymore. Yes, it's great that an African-American lesbian is well spoken, educated AND an atheist. And, YES, it must be harder for her than I to deal with society, but the idea that white males are the assumed spokespeople of atheism is pure BULLSHIT. I don't assume any gender or race is the automatic favored spokesvehicle. If she wants to be a spokesperson for atheism, she can get the fuck in the arena and if she's worth her salt- she'll become a spokesperson. She'll become an African-American Lesbian spokesperson for Atheism. In fact, she just started to be one with this interview. It will be up to HER whether she is effective and liked in the atheist community. It's obvious that she is bitter about her place in society, and I might feel the same way if I was her- but that would have nothing to do with who people in the atheist community want to listen to. It's all (or should be) about merit. She also pointed out there is no monolithic "black" community. Well that's doubly true for the atheist community. In fact, I feel a little wierd even using the term "atheist community"!

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21. Comment #389557 by AllanW on June 20, 2009 at 9:00 am

Comment #389520 by KRKBAB on June 20, 2009 at 5:57 am

Hear, hear.

If she wants to be a spokesperson for atheism, she can get the fuck in the arena and if she's worth her salt- she'll become a spokesperson.

Right again. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that anyone who takes the slant of separating races in terms of atheism (as this piece does) loses their credibility immediately. Some analysis that develops credentials in terms of socio-economic banding, educational background and then demonstrates how this is a handicap predominantly for non-whites would at least be worth looking at but her take on it is to assert and take for granted way too many things.

I'm quite aware that this kind of relativistic cack is de riguer in academia in the States but it merely displays the provincial outlook and demeaning mindset of the author when read anywhere else.

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22. Comment #389584 by BlueCollar8theist on June 20, 2009 at 10:36 am

The fact that this was such a race-riddled article left me scratching my head in wonder. In fact, I HATED the the apparent fascination with the novelty of an African-American atheist. It is quite disheartening to be an American and deal not only with the over-abundance of religion, but the 'race factor' which always lingers like a bad smell in this country.

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23. Comment #389643 by Layla Nasreddin on June 20, 2009 at 12:31 pm

I probably don't have any standing to comment on the race aspect (see photograph), but this kind of jargon-ridden discourse, with all its invocations of 'privilege', 'ideological space', 'white critique', 'deconstruct', and so on makes me a bit uneasy. The speaker or writer might have a point, but stated in this way, buried under so much jargon and implicitly presupposing a certain politicized worldview, that it turns a lot of people not already in the 'club' where this language is common currency right off, not least among members of the groups (African Americans, women, Hispanics, etc.) they're supposed to be speaking on behalf of. I notice the original editorial, aimed at a general (African American) audience, avoided that kind of language altogether. (Maybe somebody should do a paper on what the use of 'privilege' and similar words signifies in terms of the speaker/author's 'privilege'?)

I can understand that women and minority groups may feel uncomfortable about the high proportion of white males among prominent atheists. Perhaps that's a topic for discussion -- do women and minorities feel excluded, are they more religious and why this should be so, etc. And perhaps the female or minority perspectives on religion and atheism aren't being fully understood or appreciated. It's possible that overly generalized remarks about the irrationality of religious belief might be taken as an insult if disproportionately more believers are female or minority -- "if they say that religion is believed in by the irrational and illogical, and so many women/blacks are religious, what are they suggesting about women/blacks?"

Still, this kind of thinking can shade into 'whites have no right to critique black religiosity!' or 'I'm a woman/person of color, therefore you have no standing to criticize anything I hold dear!' (This is not uncommon among certain Muslim or multiculturalist academics -- the 'how dare you imperialist Westerners criticize the status of women in Muslim countries!' kind of attitude that seems to think that Western criticism of the Taliban or Iran's mullahs is considerably more objectionable than what the Taliban or the mullahs actually do.)

Needless to say, that's not going to help or accomplish anything. Most people are NOT going to be shamed into sitting down and shutting up about things they consider horrific outrages simply because they happen to be the 'wrong' color or sex or nationality or because some academic says that it should be 'respected' as part of somebody else's culture.

I do think perhaps too much navel-gazing of this sort may well prove fatal to any movement, so I'll stop here!

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24. Comment #389780 by PERSON on June 20, 2009 at 7:20 pm

3. Comment #389358 by HenryFord on June 19, 2009 at 1:06 pm
"Where do us "white folk" get together and gleefully delight at excluding others?"
You miss the point. It's that we're not actively trying to seek them out or make them welcome. That's necessary because racism and history make their experiences different from white peoples'. Your personal intentions, the purity of your motives, are irrelevant to that.

There are social cues, educational opportunities and access to resources that make a big difference. How many English speaking Guatemalans are there here? How many of them and their parents are on the median wage for Guatemala? Would anyone object to the notion that (finances allowing) atheist resources should be made available to the inhabitants of Guatemala by means other than this website? If not, why the objection to another objectively differentiated demographic?

p.s. if poss, please send me a signed copy of "The Protocols of The Elders of Zion".

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25. Comment #389813 by HenryFord on June 21, 2009 at 1:34 am

What difference does it matter what colour Dawkins is? Please explain to me what the colour of his skin has to do with anything? I read Dawkins because I wanted to know what he had to say - not because of the colour of his skin. What difference does it matter what colour Ayan Hirsi Ali is? I read her because I wanted to know what she had to say - not because of the colour of her skin. Why does the colour of someones skin matter?

If the author of this piece had talked about confronting social norms or of breaking down cultural barriers, then I could have respected their points. Instead it cam across as a rambling bitching attack on "white folk". That I can not respect.

(and I probably should change my avatar. I don't call myself after that racist bastard - my name genuinely is Henry. I'll sort a new one out this afternoon)

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26. Comment #390367 by BeyondBelief on June 23, 2009 at 7:26 am

Drivel like that displayed in Ms. Hutchinson's piece is what drove me from the Ph.D track in a liberal arts college at a major university.

If you didn't say "hegemony" "Derrida" or "Foucault" in every other sentence, you couldn't be part of the group.

Orwell's essay on the importance of clear writing in political speech tells clearly why this example of her work is destined to fail. Jargon, obfuscation, unsupported assertion and (anathema to the "atheist community") repeated appeals to protection from offense...aka appeals to censorship.

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27. Comment #433314 by ladyfractal on November 19, 2009 at 10:54 pm

Wow. With friends like these...

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28. Comment #433322 by AllanW on November 19, 2009 at 11:25 pm

27. Comment #433314 by ladyfractal on November 19, 2009 at 10:54 pm

No substantive comment for your entry to this site just a mindless 'shout-out' presumably for the author. Six months afterwards.

Care to address where the criticisms are invalid? Care to enlighten us as to where the author has been misrepresented? Care to give us your detailed insight into the greatness that the article represents?

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29. Comment #433361 by The Jesus on November 20, 2009 at 3:04 am

Apparently it's "paternalistic" to criticize black Christianity while being White. But I'm brown, so I guess I can criticize it all I want.

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30. Comment #433379 by DanDare on November 20, 2009 at 5:10 am

During summer I'm kind of olive peuce, so am I barred from commenting on the web site and working at becoming an outspoken atheist? Does it frikin matter?

There is this huge strand of thinking about "racial identity" as though a minor variation in your genes means that you belong to a culture. Fuck that.

There are people in bad cultural positions, and statistically one discernible racial group or another may be overly represented, and it may be because of prejudice in the surrounding culture. But that has nothing to do with atheism, which is a universal description of people who have no god beliefs.

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31. Comment #433383 by Bonzai on November 20, 2009 at 5:36 am

Well I once almost have a fist fight with this Chinese guy who accused me of 'trying to be white'(I am Chinese too") The guy is a Ph.D. candidate in some kind of 'social studies' and is steep in identity politics. He has the habit of seeing everything through the lenses of race. I told him that the way he uses the adjective 'white' as a slur is in itself a form of racism.

I am deeply disturbed by this kind of toxic, ivory tower identity politics which aims not to build bridges but to divide people.

According to this school of thought, differences in race, ethnicity and religious etc set up permanent barriers between people. Although not put in these exact words, the belief is that this divide is not only situational, but is intrinsic, and that it almost has a metaphysical significance. Therefore there is no way to overcome it.

Ironically, if you do try to overcome it, say, by learning African drumming and participating in 'Black' cultural events, you will be accused of 'cultural appropriation' or 'cultural shopping' if you are not black,--and especially if you are 'white'.

Now having said all that, I do think that people with different backgrounds would have unique experience that people who don't share the history would not appreciate. Also, there is an inequality of power that tend to 'normalize' some voices and marginalize others.

The flip side of the toxic identity politics that I mentioned above would be a kind of dismissive attitude towards people who suggest that racial (and class) background may have a role in shaping one's perspective and that the 'coloured blind', 'universal' perspective on a given issue may just be the perspective of the white, middle class (which is the dominating group in Western societies, some may want to highlight 'male' as well)

We should aim at building bridges. It is self defeating to say that the gulf can never be bridged, like the toxic multiculturalists insit, it is also wrong to deny that a gulf actually exists for some traditionally (and still) oppressed groups like African Americans.

The argument that we have only minor genetic differences therefore race doesn't exist is entirely missing the point.

Yes, biologically it is meaningless to make a big deal out of racial differences, but historically people did think it is a big deal (some still do)Race is a social construction with little biological basis, but it is still real in affecting how people socialize and experience their lives. The black slaves shared the same genes as their white masters. This biological fact was true then as it is now. It is obviously quite irrelevant to the slavery experience of blacks v.s whites.

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