1. Comment #391766 by mattincinci on June 28, 2009 at 6:28 am

boycott the military, do not allow anyone you know to join

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2. Comment #391767 by russell_c_cook on June 28, 2009 at 6:29 am

Was this documentary made by AlJazeera?

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3. Comment #391769 by Roger Stanyard on June 28, 2009 at 6:37 am

This, in my book, is a big issue. The anecdotal evidence from the British military that has and is serving alongside the US military in Iraq and Afghanistan is that large elements of the US armed forces are riddled with religious fundamentalism and act accordingly. They see the two wars as "religious" wars against evil non-believers and, at worse, part of a larger war leading to (and necessary for) the return of Christ.

If there are any British military personnel in this forum who can provide their experience of this, it would be much appreciated.

My understanding is that a disproportionate number of US military personnel come from the Bible Belt.

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4. Comment #391776 by paulifa1 on June 28, 2009 at 6:59 am

Well I'm not in the military, but I've talked to a friend who has served in Iraq as a sargeant. He doesn't like working with US soldiers, seems to be of the opinion he's more likely to end up dead when they are about! in fact his overall opinion summed up seems to be that the common US foot soldier struck him as being very polite to all, but on average of a much lower intelligence than the UK foot soldiers over there, and a fair percentage of them believed some seriously f**ked up batshit, (his words, not mine!) he went on to tell me that from some of them there was talk of helping bring on armageddon etc. and he'd often get asked if he knew jesus!

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5. Comment #391777 by Hypnos7 on June 28, 2009 at 7:04 am

My understanding is that a disproportinate number of US military personnel come from the Bible Belt.

This seems to be the case. The Bible Belt is also a poverty belt with low educational attainment. Unlike other parts of the US, there are not alternative industries like mining, ranching or farm labor to provide jobs to those without a college degree.

The military is all that's left.

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6. Comment #391780 by vampfan30 on June 28, 2009 at 7:12 am

comment # 391777 by Hypnos7...

As one from the South, I totally agree with your statement & go further to say that Christianity also seriously influences the decision to join the military...

God & Country is a phrase heard often down here.

V

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7. Comment #391787 by JonLynnHarvey on June 28, 2009 at 8:40 am

There's a long section on this in the documentary film "Constantine's Sword" which is quite good.

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8. Comment #391801 by John_T on June 28, 2009 at 9:22 am

Michael Shermer, on his SkepticBlog posted last week, touched on this issue.

To go along with the picture in the video which says - "New Testament" on the barrel of a tank - Shermer reports - "an inscription in large red letters painted on the side of a Bradley Fighting Vehicle that reads in Arabic script: “Jesus Killed Mohammed."

From Shermer's essay:

Shermer: None of this would matter were it not for the fact that soldiers are sworn into the military to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States, not the holy book of their religion. This is what it means to be a secular nation: not that the majority of its citizens are secular, but that its government favors no religion and, in fact, separates church and state. That is not a problem for most religious soldiers, but for evangelicals, by definition they are suppose to evangelize (or else they wouldn’t be evangelicals), and that means trying to convert those around them to evangelical Christianity. And those around them are either fellow soldiers or citizens of an occupied country. Enter the Officers’ Christian Fellowship (OCF), with 15,000 members in 80% of military bases, and growing 3% per annum. Sharlet quotes OCF director Lieutenant General Bruce L. Fister, who equated the “global war on terror” to “a spiritual battle of the highest magnitude.” The Muslims have their jihad and the Christians have their spiritual battle. Onward Christian Soldiers.

Entire essay is very interesting - link below:

http://skepticblog.org/2009/06/23/onward-christian-soldiers/

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9. Comment #391803 by NumberCruncher on June 28, 2009 at 9:30 am

I'm a Brit ex-serviceman. I worked with the US military several times when I was in the Army. After I retired, I spent the best part of two years in Iraq as a civilian security advisor for USAID. Anybody from Baghdad who remembers the SAFE Report or the KSI IDR: that's me. If I've jogged anybody's memory with those: hi guys, it's good you're here to read this.

Anyhoo...

Armies are generally a reflection of the society from which they are drawn and the US military clearly contains more active believers than the generally agnostic Brit Army. However: I have yet to come across one who has said to me that s/he regards the War on Terror as a Christian crusade against Muslims. Many see their duties tying in with a personal Christian responsibility to fight oppression, but beyond that: no. Christianity long ago ceased to be spread by the sword and, besides, I've found that Americans have this inbuilt revulsion for expansionism. Speaking in very broad terms, Americans believe passionately in democracy, fairness and the right to do what you do providing you don't hurt anyone. These attitudes are reinforced by the American military ethos which is actively promoted.

For me, giving briefings on the nature of Islamic terrorism, I was surprised at how difficult it was to get British officials to understand that the guy who blew himself up - he really did believe that he would wake up to find himself in Paradise with virgins, boys, slave markets, rivers of etc etc and that is why he wrapped his genitals in cotton wool. US officials, more accustomed to the concept of religious belief, would simpy accept it.

It is the Muslims who support radical Islam who are waging a war of religion and the rest of the world which is on the receiving end of it and has been since the 9th Century. In the Muslim world, everything is seen through the prism of religion and specifically the prism of Islam in a way that we in the secular West and particularly in Britain find very difficult to understand. Remember that when watching anything produced by al-Jazeera.

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10. Comment #391809 by Stafford Gordon on June 28, 2009 at 9:52 am

Terrifying. Could this kind of thing drift into being State Funded Terrorism; indeed, given the majority mentality of the last American administration, could it be designed to do so? "Gott mit Uns" again?

The most frightening thing is that, as with all religious mind sets, it can't be reasoned with.

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11. Comment #391811 by HenryFord on June 28, 2009 at 9:57 am

I'd like to echo NumberCruncher here (RAF, worked with spams on numerous occasions, have had many an opportunity to get drunk with them).

There seems to be a perception on this board that American military = dumbasfuck theotard. I can only say that my personal experience is very different to this. There is a slightly lower level in average intelligence between the US military and other countries - but I find that it is because more intelligent Americans have so many more options than in other countries. That isn't to say that what is left are a bunch of backward hicks. They are incredibly polite, proffesional individuals on the whole - and I've never once experienced any religious nonsense from any one I've talked to (at least, no more than could be expected from anywhere else).

One of the more interesting conversations I had with one was his confusion as to why he couldn't just be called American - why did he have to be labeled African-American.

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12. Comment #391812 by John_T on June 28, 2009 at 10:05 am

NumberCruncher - #9 Comment

NumberCruncher: Remember that when watching anything produced by al-Jazeera.

Would you say this was an overly biased presentation, perhaps unfair or faulty?

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13. Comment #391815 by aoratos philos on June 28, 2009 at 10:19 am

I'm not going to comments on the legitimacy of the video piece, but;
If I were an American General I would turn a blind eye or even try to encourage "religious brotherhood", within my ranks. It makes for a tight and cohesive fighting force.

Religious and therefore cultural identity equate to national identity, which all go hand in hand. It's a dangerous in-group mix for the world, but a useful one for military leaders.

My personal opinion is one in opposition to standing state armies and religion. I oppose these separately but recognise the immense danger when these two concepts are combined.

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14. Comment #391818 by astronomer24 on June 28, 2009 at 10:28 am

Children with bombs sounds just about right.

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15. Comment #391873 by MarshallEvans on June 28, 2009 at 1:23 pm

I can certainly attest to all this!! I can also say that if you are an Atheist (or any other non-christian) and want to join the military stay away from the Air Force, Marines, and Army (in that order). The Navy seems to have a better environment...

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16. Comment #391877 by Melomel on June 28, 2009 at 1:37 pm

The United States is a deeply religious country, over 90% believe in god and 80% believe in miracles.

That number is highly suspect, the writer chose the highest number from recent polls (and added "over"). It's somewhat tricky to nail down the specific numbers for anything other than a phrase specifically polled for (in this case, "religion: none" might or might not directly map to no belief in god), but here are the most recent data:

http://b27.cc.trincoll.edu/weblogs/AmericanReligionSurvey-ARIS/reports/ARIS_Report_2008.pdf

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17. Comment #391891 by plastictowel on June 28, 2009 at 3:16 pm

In response to NumberCruncher



"Christianity long ago ceased to be spread by the sword"
How long are we talking here? You may want to re-inform Latin America of your take on history...

"I've found that Americans have this inbuilt revulsion for expansionism."
We have 770 military bases overseas. We have military men stationed in 820 different locations across 39 countries. Altogether, 84,488 military personnel are located in Europe, 154 in the former Soviet Union, 70,719 in East Asia and the Pacific, 7,850 in North Africa, the Near East, and South Asia, 2,727 are in sub-Saharan Africa with 2,043 in the Western Hemisphere excepting the United States itself. We spend as much on 'defense' (offense) as the entire world combined. We spend $651billion on our military. We have 1,454,515 members in our military, and 848,000 in reserves. You can not name a single region of the US we do not have some glaring presence in.
But no you're right, America is against expansion....


"Speaking in very broad terms, Americans believe passionately in democracy, fairness and the right to do what you do providing you don't hurt anyone. These attitudes are reinforced by the American military ethos which is actively promoted."

What kind of sick distortion of history is this? We supported Sadam from 80-88. We supporter Pinochet for two decades, and ensured his victory by aiding the coup against democratically elected Allende. We funded several decades of dictatorship in Nicaragua under the Somoza brotherood, and then aided the Contras against the peoples will. We overthrew the democratically elected leader Mossadegh in Iran, in favor of oil profits, and decades of dictator rule by the Shah. We supported dictators right after WWII in South Korea, Indonesia (and supported Suharto for several decades of genocide in East Timor and his own populace), Greece, and Turkey! We supported the dictator Musharif in Pakistan just recently. Just this morning one of our School of the Americas graduates led a coup against democratically elected Honduran President Zelaya, and we don't care to stop it. Batista in Cuba. Decade of 'dirty war' in Argentina, we installed the bathiist party in iraq at the overthrow of Quazim, we funded populace genocide in El Salvador under the Altacatl american trained regime...Alright, I am done, I could keep naming, and I could go all the way back to the 1700s but I think I have made my point.

"It is the Muslims who support radical Islam who are waging a war of religion and the rest of the world which is on the receiving end of it and has been since the 9th Century."

Let's add up the body count of the Western world and the Middle East. Any short walk through history will clearly put more blood on our hands. The Islamic world has not 'waged a war' with EVERYONE else. Are you familiar with Greenland, Iceland, South America, Russia, China, Japan, to name a few. They seem safe.
Our sanctions against Iraw from 90-99 led to the death of 500,000 children (that's excluding adults), and the war in Iraq over 1million bystanders. Let's see these radical islamist rival those numbers?

"In the Muslim world, everything is seen through the prism of religion and specifically the prism of Islam in a way that we in the secular West and particularly in Britain find very difficult to understand. Remember that when watching anything produced by al-Jazeera."

What is the Muslim World? It's not a nation. We could say the same about the 'Atheist world' or the 'Christian world.' Going to war with a single religion, and using populaces and nations as hostages, is a painfully myopic strategy. If you really think EVERY Muslim is identical in 'radicalness' you're a radical, and misinformed.

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18. Comment #391900 by Maddawg58 on June 28, 2009 at 4:04 pm

I am an Atheist and I have been in the military for 15 years. I was in the Marines for 8 and have been in the Army for 7, Iraq for two years. The military is a cross section of society, leaning toward the right. The military, like society, has it's fair share of idiots. But for the most part, members are of average or above average intelligence. People don't join the military because they have no other choice. Anyone on this board who has been in the military could tell you that. I enjoy the brotherhood, camaraderie, and shared struggle. Probably for genetic, environmental, or sociocultural reasons. Maybe I carry the MAOA-H gene or something, and the military was a legitimate outlet for my impulses. I had plenty of choices growing up. This seemed like the natural choice. People like me gravitate toward the military. Look at the human race as a whole. We all believe in evolution, right. Do you think that all the genetic traits for combat has been bred out of the human population since Obama has been in office. Anyway, most people nowadays join to pay off student loans or get money for college. That is a conscience decision, made by an individual who is weighing the reward vs the possible consequences. Not the sign of being stupid. Since the economy has collapsed I have had three pay raises. We are due for another 3.5% pay raise in Jan. I get free medical, dental, $500,000 dollar insurance policy, a housing allowance of $2800 a month, and a cost of living allowance. I made $98,000 dollars last year. I got my degree for free and will be attending graduate school for free when I retire with a life long pension at 38 years old. So who's the idiot?

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19. Comment #391924 by LeeLeeOne on June 28, 2009 at 4:49 pm

Purposefully utilizing public resources to further a private agenda is illegal in the Constitution of the United States further delineated and ratified in the United States of America Bill of Rights.

Purposefully utilizing public resources to further a religious agenda is illegal in the Constitution of the United States further delineated and ratified in the United States of America Bill of Rights.

Major General Cecil Richardson is directly and unquestionably ultimately responsible for this blatant breech.

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20. Comment #391925 by plastictowel on June 28, 2009 at 4:52 pm

Maddawg the level of societies ratio of military members varies across the world and history - therefore it's not some kind of balance in genetics. Sparta, 100% military. Iroquois 0%. Also the US tends to glorify military service more then many other countries. I can not drive 1 mile where I live without seeing some kind of "Join the *insert armed service here*" advertisement.

"So who's the idiot?"
Did someone call you an idiot? Personally I think participating in internationally illegal, profit-motivated, contrived threat level, wars - that attempt to force economic and/or social policy through bullets and bombs, is well 'not rational' to say the least...

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21. Comment #391928 by LeeLeeOne on June 28, 2009 at 5:06 pm

#391900 Maddawg58:

Perhaps you are not an idiot, but just simply selfish.

You somehow have been able to lead a "double life", outright expressing your displeasure when purposefully exposed to attempted indoctrination towards "God's Soldiers" and the ilk.

Or perhaps, you did not voice your displeasure because you saw the benefits of not allowing your voice to be heard.

In other words, you kept your mouth shut, no matter what; you passively participated in or "went along with" indoctrination in the guise of avoiding being seen an atheist/agnostic/free-thinker/humanist and the like.

You did this to avoid "So who's the idiot?" type of fate.

So, tell me. Is it better to be mute for reward, or is it better to be vociferous for shunning? For the greater good or for the greater reward?

Maddawg58, in my eyes, you are no better than Cheney. And yes, that's an insult.

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22. Comment #391929 by Philster61 on June 28, 2009 at 5:08 pm

What absolute hypocrisy. "Soldiers of Christ". Theres a contradiction in terms. Didnt Jesus preach love for your enemies? Didnt he preach forgiveness? Not once do I see any resemblance to his teachings here.

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23. Comment #391933 by bentleyd on June 28, 2009 at 5:24 pm

I retired from the US Air Force 4 years ago, having served 20 years. Maybe things have changed drastically, but I don't recall anything like this in my experience. On a typical Sunday at the various Middle-East deployed locations, you'd see about as many people in the rec center or gym as you would in the base chapel. Since I'm from the South (Texas, Arkansas) I've seen greater religiosity among the civilian world than in the Air Force, which is a cross section of the whole USA.

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24. Comment #391935 by Hypnos7 on June 28, 2009 at 5:42 pm

It seems that we require data comparing the religiosity of the military with that of the civilian population, as well as data on the socioeconomic background of recruits.

I could not find anything on religiosity, but did find something on demographics:

http://www.heritage.org/research/nationalsecurity/cda05-08.cfm

US military recruits are more likely to have a high school degree and generally match the US distribution of income, but rural areas and The South are overrepresented.

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25. Comment #391940 by Maddawg58 on June 28, 2009 at 6:18 pm

Let's think about this. What alternative have we promoted for these young soldiers. 18 & 19 were the most turbulent ages for me. Young, impressionable, away from home, family, and support. When you deploy overseas they tell you. You will either find Jesus or the bottle. I found neither, but that is where I saw most of my "on the border" friends get swept up into fundamentalist christianity. The military, unfortunately, is a necessary evil in the world we live in. As much as I would like to live in a utopian society dressed in nothing but a loin cloth, the rest of the world prefers different. I have been very outspoken about my Humanism/Atheism and I am a member of MAAF and AHS.

I have shown many people the light, but I don't see the Richard Dawkin's Foundation or American Humanists sponsoring "Rallies for Rationalism" at military bases. Getting us Atheists and Freethinkers to rally for anything is like herding squirrels. We are so opinionated that we are not unified. I live in Hawaii, the Hawaii Humanist Website is down, they won't return any e-mails, and they haven't had a meeting since 2006. Where are these kids to turn? If we teach are youth to think rationally, they will grow up as I have to be rational leaders in the military. And then, just maybe, they will be more understanding of other religions and advise their civilian leaders to think rationally too. Instead these youngsters are gobbled up and seduced by the fundies at boot camp. If we really want to change this country we can't bury our heads in the sand and say "atheists boycott the military", that will just make it worse.

When I tell people that I am an atheist, people are very surprised because they know what type of soldier I am. They say they have never met one. Then I point of the out other atheists, agnostics, and free thinkers in the unit and they are taken back. This is because we were all in the same firefight, and we were the ones taking it to them. We have the most to lose. This gives the military fundies a different perspective, we are not all hippie/satanists with body piercings. We can kick @#$ with the rest of them.

LeeLeeOne I share your passion, I don't mind the insult. But I have chosen to participate. It is a better perspective on world events, kind of a find hand view. Don't blame me for Iraq, I didn't boil the egg, I'm just the one who has to suck it. People like me don't care who we are fighting, if we did we couldn't do this job. When the bullets start flying your convictions go out the window. It was the Republicans and the spineless Democrats that let Bush and Cheney start this illegal war. Blame the voters that put them in office. Non-beleivers make up 20% of the military. If atheist like me didn't join, there would be no rational thought on the front line. Then...things would be worse.

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26. Comment #391941 by plastictowel on June 28, 2009 at 6:21 pm

"But I have chosen to participate. It is a better perspective on world events, kind of a find hand view. Don't blame me for Iraq, I didn't boil the egg, I'm just the one who has to suck it. People like me don't care who we are fighting, if we did we couldn't do this job. When the bullets start flying your convictions go out the window. It was the Republicans and the spineless Democrats that let Bush and Cheney start this illegal war. Blame the voters that put them in office. Non-beleivers make up 20% of the military. If atheist like me didn't join, there would be no rational thought on the front line."

Well we can blame you as much as the voters. Why didn't you DECLINE to participate in that war? Killing innocent people in a internationally illegal crime is not exactly 'rational' or ethically justified...

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27. Comment #391942 by John_T on June 28, 2009 at 6:22 pm

Hypnos7 - Comment #24

Hypnos7: It seems that we require data comparing the religiosity of the military with that of the civilian population..

Michael Shermer, in the SkepticBlog I posted above [#8], reports:

M. Shermer: That is more than a little unfortunate, because the military has actually lagged behind the general population in religiosity, with 20% of the roughly 1.4 million active-duty personnel telling the Department of Defense that they have “no religious preference,” which is higher than the 16.1% of the American public who tick the same box on similar surveys conducted by Gallup and others (although among active military only .5% — one half of one percent — call themselves “atheist” or “agnostic”, whereas around 8% of the general public does). The other 80% identify with evangelical or Pentecostal (22%), Catholic (19%), another 20% as “Christian” (incorporating other Christian sects), and assorted other religions, but next to no Jews (1/300) or Muslims (1/400).

Michael is also referencing this interesting piece by Jeff Sharlet:

http://www.harpers.org/archive/2009/05/0082488

As to some of the comments about personal experience - I may add, obviously without knowing all the details of the situation or personal experience (and I don't pretend I know at this time) - that it seems from the Sharlet story, Shermer's account and a bit from the Fault Lines video that this is a rather "new" movement, or more engaged as a movement at this time.

Sharlet, after briefly providing a background of fundamentalism in the military over the past decades offers these thoughts:

Sharlet: Today, fundamentalism, based as it is on a vigorous assertion of narrow and exclusive claims to truth, can no longer justify common cause with secularism. In its principal battle, the front lines are not in Iraq or Afghanistan but right here, where evangelical militants must wage spiritual war against their own countrymen. In a lecture for OCF titled “Fighting the War on Spiritual Terrorism,” Army Lieutenant Colonel Greg E. Metzgar explained that Christian soldiers must always consider themselves behind enemy lines, even within the ranks, because every unsaved member of the military is a potential agent of “spiritual terrorism.” Even secularists with the best intentions may be part of this fifth column, Air Force Brigadier General Donald C. Wurster told a 2007 assembly of chaplains, noting that “the unsaved have no realization of their unfortunate alliance with evil.”

[emphasis added]

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28. Comment #391943 by Squigit on June 28, 2009 at 6:32 pm

18. Comment #391900 by Maddawg58

Exactly why my husband joined! But, alas, I do miss the commissary...buying groceries in the civilian grocery stores has got me counting pennies!

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29. Comment #391948 by Maddawg58 on June 28, 2009 at 6:54 pm

Plastictowel, being on the front lines is the only way to insure that innocent people are not being killed. I can say with some certainty that your blogs are not doing much to prevent anything. Having rational soldiers behind the trigger prevents unnecessary civilian causalities. As for combatants, not too much we can do for them. We are the ones that understand the culture, sympathize with the locals, and know that not all are bad. There are very clear distinctions between, Sunni, Shia, Kurd, SOI, Naq Shibani, Jaburi, JAM, JAMSG, etc. A christian fundie soldier thinks he is in a Holy War. I am right there with him explaining that the locals hate Al Qaeda just as much as we do, but they are scared. So that is why they are not telling us where they are. Not cause they are sympathizers. The world is a lot more complicated and I have chosen to participate. I don't have to speculate about anything or rely on FOX news or CNN to tell me what is going on.

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30. Comment #391952 by Maddawg58 on June 28, 2009 at 7:18 pm

....unless it is about the Michael Jackson stuff. I have chosen not to participate in that.

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31. Comment #391953 by Goldy on June 28, 2009 at 7:26 pm

Maddawg
You would have to make the Mick Jackson reference, wouldn't you. Now i'm going to have "Thriiillerrrr..." bouncing around in my head again! Bah!!!

;-)

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32. Comment #391954 by Sheol99 on June 28, 2009 at 7:37 pm

Bravo for Maddawg!

Rather than always listening to armchair analyst (even if they are on the side of the "good") we need to hear an honest worldly assessments.

The world is much more complicated than a set of rules or theories; and being a soldier does not always mean being stupid or evil. The same with being a butcher does not always mean a sadist.

The world is a complex place, while theories and rules make it simpler and understandable (rather than confusing and god-driven), we have to keep reminding ourselves, the world is a complex place.

Again, bravo Maddawg - it takes a lot of courage and honesty to write (and think and act) the way you did.

EDIT1: it is true that freethinkers are opinionated and very difficult to rally, and that's exactly where it should be, that's part of the beauty.

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33. Comment #391955 by plastictowel on June 28, 2009 at 7:48 pm

"Plastictowel, being on the front lines is the only way to insure that innocent people are not being killed."

Being on the front lines ensures a continuation of some form of killing - oftentimes the innocent. Again, 1million bystanders died in the Iraq war, which was an international sham! Or we could take a look at Vietnam, or the War on Drugs?

"I can say with some certainty that your blogs are not doing much to prevent anything."
I can say with certainty the bloggers are armed with words, not guns.


"Having rational soldiers behind the trigger prevents unnecessary civilian causalities."

And giving slaves a bed with feather down pillows ensures they are bit happier with their master. Either way the institution is heinous. I have no respect for an institution that trains people to follow orders, using weaponry, and kill. Face it, at the end of the day, you listen to the man in charge of you, who listens to the man in charge of him. Theist or not, you bow to a higher power. If you want to make sure violence does not continue, do not participate in it, especially when it's so obviously contrived (iraq war).

"As for combatants, not too much we can do for them. We are the ones that understand the culture, sympathize with the locals, and know that not all are bad."
Some maybe, not all. Either way, you're also the ones taking orders, wielding guns, and pulling triggers.

"There are very clear distinctions between, Sunni, Shia, Kurd, SOI, Naq Shibani, Jaburi, JAM, JAMSG, etc."
Don't forget yourself. Each of you takes orders from above, and uses weaponry. Sigh.

"The world is a lot more complicated and I have chosen to participate."
So have bloggers. Again, there is a difference in how they chose to participate. You chose to carry a weapon into a country that had already suffered 500,000 child deaths due to a US embargo, and was armed with chemical weapons in the 80's by the US. You carried your weapon against a people guilty of crimes that those above you in rank contrived. You followed orders. Yes you participated - but perhaps you should of looked for an alternative path.

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34. Comment #391957 by Goldy on June 28, 2009 at 8:03 pm

Again, 1million bystanders died in the Iraq war, which was an international sham!

One has to ask...how many innocent bystanders died before the US venture? How many died because the western powers really did nothing (the sanctions)? How many innocent bystanders died because there were not enough soldiers to provide security againts those that revelled in the power vacuum?

I can say with certainty the bloggers are armed with words, not guns.

And as we know, the pen is mightier than the sword. Yet the written word is enough to stir people to action and to cause repression to occur - ask any Iranian. If you write and things happen as a consequence of your words, is that not the same as someone chosing a career in the armed forces and goig off to fight?

You carried your weapon against a people guilty of crimes that those above you in rank contrived. You followed orders. Yes you participated - but perhaps you should of looked for an alternative path.

While he may have carried a weapon and used it against people in a foreign land, one must also ask how many people and homes his weapon provided protection for in this same foreign land...

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35. Comment #391959 by Maddawg58 on June 28, 2009 at 8:27 pm

We need to clarify something right off the bat. I am an atheist, not a pacifist. I have been fighting for a long time. We all take orders at some level or another. That is part of being a hierarchical animal. I think that you are over estimating what types of orders that a soldier receives. When we go out on a combat patrol we have a commanders intent. What we have to do to accomplish that intent is up to us.......me. I have never been ordered to kill anyone. You are never ordered to kill. You exercise your own choice to pull the trigger while acting within very strict guidelines. Each engagement is scrutinized by the Staff Judge Advocate office. That is the purpose of things like basic training, to teach soldiers to make responsible decisions under extreme duress, weighing the possible adverse consequences at the same time. i have seen more restraint in this war than any other. We are not to trained to take orders like a robot. I am a professional soldier. We need thinking soldiers who can act independently in a dynamic non-linear battlefield. It is true that the decision to go to war is not mine, but how we prosecute war is up to me. Having more soldiers like us will ensure that these wars are fought with as little cost to the civilian populace as possible. Because they are going to happen anyway regardless of how hard you blog. I know your going to quote that one in your response. When the next one happens I will be there doing the same thing, and you will be blogging about it, trying to change the world.

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36. Comment #391961 by Maddawg58 on June 28, 2009 at 8:43 pm

Until we have rational civilian leadership, these wars will continue. Hopefully we'll have a couple of years of peace, or some just activities to participate in, with Obama. Thats until the next lunatic get into office. Peaks and troughs.

Forgot to mention also, I joined during the Clinton Era. When this war happened I wasn't going to walk out on my brothers, just because we knew that this was going to be a messy one. Like I said in my original post, for a soldier it is not about the causes. Hard to explain to a civilian, but anyone out there who has been in combat knows exactly what I am talking about......plus the moneys good. I had to say it.

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37. Comment #391963 by Goldy on June 28, 2009 at 8:57 pm

It is true that the decision to go to war is not mine.....

As I recall, Bin Laden didn't see the distinction between those in power and those that vote. Plastictowel is therefore as guilty as Bush in this case (as is Maddawg :-)) regardless whether one voted for Bush or not. If one is a part of the country that democratically elected a leader who subsequently ordered soldiers to fight, one is as guilty of the blood shed as the leader.

Something like that, anyway :-)

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38. Comment #391966 by ewaldrep on June 28, 2009 at 9:50 pm

Maddawg58

Hoah, a am also an atheist and served 7yrs in the army including a tour to Iraq and I never experienced any more religious pressure while in than anywhere else. There are always going to be some nutcases in any bunch, and I've met some British soldiers and they have their share as well, but never an overt influence nor anything I actually took as offensive. I do no one person serving in Colorado Springs that had a 1st SGT that wanted to take a trip to focus on the family, a religious organization, but as soon as he spoke up it was halted immediately and addressed by command. I’ve been out since 04 but that is the experience I had which may have changed but I can’t imagine it so. Thank you for continuing to serve our country.

Plastictowel has been far more offensive in his condescending tone and arrogance towards soldiers than any chaplain has ever been.

The problem is one to that I take seriously and intend to keep a watchful eye on but there are watchdog’s on target already. I speak to chaplains quite often at traumatic stress conventions and the ones I see there also appear to have more at heart to ease human suffering that to push a religious agenda.

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39. Comment #391967 by ewaldrep on June 28, 2009 at 9:56 pm

AF Comm Guy

a side note but you nobody should choose the branch they choose to serve because of their religious environment. If an atheist or anybody else runs into an issue just use the chain of command, which is what it is for. I had a Muslim friend that we used the COC for because of a PT test during his daylight fasting, a simple mention of a remedy was sufficient to make the appropriate arrangements. The military is still guided by the constitution so even a fanatic in a high position still has a commander. At any rate, I'm sure you know all this but I am posting it for the benefit of anybody else who may come across it. Thanks.

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40. Comment #391974 by MarshallEvans on June 28, 2009 at 11:17 pm

Made a comment earlier that got eaten by the bandwidth monster...

In any case, I was extending a word of thanks for AF Comm Guy and especially Maddawg58 for their comments. After reading plastictowels diatribe, I thought the replies were well needed.

I also wanted to say that this peice about religiousity in the military is needed - though certianly not a precursor to bashing our service members. We need to keep an eye on evalgelization since in the right environment this kind of thing could flare up into something ugly.

All militaries are in danger of becoming infiltrated by fringe elements that wish to have some form of dominionism that they feel that can't have through mainstream channels of society. Thankfully, this is not the case for us... yet.

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41. Comment #391977 by Maddawg58 on June 29, 2009 at 12:27 am

The young service members are salvageable, but unfortunately our side cannot offer an alternative. These soldiers need social cohesion, support, and counsel. We provide them nothing but truth. That is enough for us, but for an 18 year old kid who just watched his best friend get blown out the other side of a HMMWV, it's not enough. We can't compete.

Most of us, for whatever reason, came to the conclusions we all agree on by ourselves. No one taught us to think this way. We think it is everyone else's personal responsibility to educate themselves. It took me 16 years of reading every Dawkins, Harris, Hawkins, Darwin, and Hitchens book I could get my hands on. College classes on Astronomy, Cosmology, Anthropology, and Biology. Most of you are in the same boat, thinking is hard work. But we are the lucky ones, we have the natural drive to do this on our own. Most people don't. They were not shaped by their environment to think rationally. They grew up in the South, with Baptist parents, who took them to church. They were taught that the world is 6000 years old, Darwin is Satan, and Bush is a hero. I know because I work with these people everyday.

If we truly want to live in a rational world we are going to have to use some energy to bring the rest the people up to speed. The military is a perfect medium to promote rational thought and free thinking. But it is going to take MAAAF and humanist associations to do it. But like I said being a "Free Thinker" doesn't always promote combined causes. Look at a typical rally. It could be against the war or something but all the signs read "Save the Whales", "Global Warming is Real", "Say No, Prop 8", etc. This is similar to us, all over the place. The evangelicals are a bunch of retards but they got there stuff wired tight. They are financed and organized. We are supposed to be the smart ones, highly educated, PhD's, and stuff. But we can't organize a national party for freethinkers and independents. Once we pull together as one party or group in this country, we will finally have a voice and not be considered the most hated fringe group in America. We need to start standing together.

Oh, and since when did atheism become synonymous with pacifism.

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42. Comment #391983 by Neil Schipper on June 29, 2009 at 1:32 am

Maddawg58, thanks for giving voice to some very inconvenient truths.

I sometimes wonder if one's figuring out that there's no god frequently comes at a cost to his ability to link arms with like-minded people and build a sustainable institution.

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43. Comment #392082 by plastictowel on June 29, 2009 at 5:50 am

Goldy,

"One has to ask...how many innocent bystanders died before the US venture? How many died because the western powers really did nothing (the sanctions)? How many innocent bystanders died because there were not enough soldiers to provide security againts those that revelled in the power vacuum?"

Well I said how many died. 500,000 children died as a result of Western powers sanctions. In the process their disgust for the West and their reliance and trust in Saddam grew. Tyrant or not, 500,000 children is inexcusable. Why do you presume it's soldiers (force and guns) or nothing else as an alternative? Where's the humanitarian, or the philanthropist in you? You want friends, you want peace, you bring a loaf of bread, not a bullet.


"And as we know, the pen is mightier than the sword. Yet the written word is enough to stir people to action and to cause repression to occur - ask any Iranian. If you write and things happen as a consequence of your words, is that not the same as someone chosing a career in the armed forces and goig off to fight?"

We could ask any American too. Refer to 'operation chaos' during the Vietnam war era and shortly after. Google will provide you with all the information you need. Regardless, Iraq was a contrived sham, for oil. This is not a disputable point, everyone knows it that follows the papers and knows a little history. Going into Iraq and just 'taking orders' while wielding a gun is not free-thinking, rational, autonomous, or frankly sane.


"While he may have carried a weapon and used it against people in a foreign land, one must also ask how many people and homes his weapon provided protection for in this same foreign land... "

You're serious? You think his guns gave homes?
500,000 children died from sanctions, 500,000 adults, and approx 1,000,000 died from the war itself. The cost of this war is estimated between $3-4trillion. Just imagine the difference if instead of bombing, sanctioning, and 'yes siring' for the past 19 years, we spent 3-4 trillion bringing over food, infrastructure, medical care, schools, etc. The reaction would not be what it has been for the past six years - people willing to kill themselves to force us to leave. Instilling a social and political policy a people has NEVER been properly achieved, and thanked, through force - that's just a historical fact. This war was illegal, not only the actual war, and the lying to American's at home, but numerous corollaries like torture.

Maybe you have heard of Kathy Kelly and her organizations Voices of the Wilderness? Since the mid 90s they have brought over food and medicine to Iraqis. Of course this was illegal because of the sanctions, and her accounts of her sustenance in comparison to sanctions is tear wrenching. Regardless, she was threatened by the Justice Department with 1 million in fines and 12 years in federal prison for being 'charitable.' What happens to the propagators of this avaricious war? Nice retirement packages. Pfui. Where have our morals gone when we can attempt to justify such wanton death?

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44. Comment #392086 by plastictowel on June 29, 2009 at 6:10 am

Amazing you don't see the problem in your own writing.

"We need to clarify something right off the bat. I am an atheist, not a pacifist."

I do not care what your religious stance is. 'evil' and 'good' (for lack of a better term) is done on both sides.

"I have been fighting for a long time."

There are less violent alternatives in life...

"We all take orders at some level or another. That is part of being a hierarchical animal."

Yes but we do not all make a career out of it, and we do not all apply this hierarchy to an institution of weaponry. No team-sports player risk being court martialed by his coach.

"I think that you are over estimating what types of orders that a soldier receives. When we go out on a combat patrol we have a commanders intent."

I have already estimated correctly. What did you JUST refer to. "Combat Patrol."

"What we have to do to accomplish that intent is up to us.......me."

Yes, but you still have to go out on a "combat patrol." Look at the nature of the institution and you'll see the problem. You might be the kindest, softest, teddy-bear, but you're propagating a violent institution. As I said before, a slave owner can give his salves a bed to sleep in, and large meals during the day, but he's still propagating the institution of slavery.

"I have never been ordered to kill anyone. You are never ordered to kill."

Really, no ones every ordered to kill? Ever? So the first aerial bombs dropped in March of 03 were a choice? Again, you not go on things like 'combat patrol,' while carrying a gun, and having a bunch of individuals with guns, who have all just undergone training on how to kill, without expecting people to be killed.

"You exercise your own choice to pull the trigger while acting within very strict guidelines. Each engagement is scrutinized by the Staff Judge Advocate office. That is the purpose of things like basic training, to teach soldiers to make responsible decisions under extreme duress, weighing the possible adverse consequences at the same time."

I am so very morose that we have an institution that does this sort of training. We are fellow homo-sapiens, not ruthless barbarians. Sigh...

"i have seen more restraint in this war than any other. We are not to trained to take orders like a robot. I am a professional soldier. We need thinking soldiers who can act independently in a dynamic non-linear battlefield."

You act independently while on a combat patrol. Also, as you said, you command those below you. That is not a free-thinking institution whatsoever. I am familiar with boot-camp, from the moment you enter the door, you are not some form of 'everyones voice is equal here.' There is shouting, order following, death training, and required respect for buzz words like 'duty,' 'honor,' and 'country.'

"It is true that the decision to go to war is not mine, but how we prosecute war is up to me."

Right, you participated in prosecuting the war. There was no prosecuting of the liars who deceived us into it, or the people like you who pulled the trigger for those liars. You want to ensure proper 'prosecution' of the Iraq war. Do not go. And point the finger at the illegal aggressor. Write your congressman, write the UN, but for the love of no-god, do not participate in their bidding (whether you commanded people on combat patrol or not, you participated in an internationally illegal affair).


"Having more soldiers like us will ensure that these wars are fought with as little cost to the civilian populace as possible."

1 million dead is already too much. Inexcusable. Unnecessary. Barbaric. Having no soldiers, only those that truly rally during a moment of SELF-DEFENSE (not aggression), is ethically sound. Since the end of WWII, we have 810 locations where US troops are located overseas, across 39 countries. We have 770 combat bases overseas. Over 1,400,000 current recruits, and over 600,000 in the reserves. We spend as much on 'defense' (offense) as the world combined. We spend more on our military then the world combined. And for you to calmly say "Having more soldiers like us will ensure that these wars are fought with as little cost to the civilian populace as possible" is untenable, and a sick untruth.

"Because they are going to happen anyway regardless of how hard you blog."

That is just not true. Do you see Latin America participating in international war? Do you see the Scandinavian countries really putting in any effort in international war? Quite a number of EU countries? Even China has been war-less for some decades. Scuffle, and some group conflict is 'natural' - I will readily admit. But wanton war, on the scale of hundreds of thousands, no, that requires emperors dictating to those below.

"I know your going to quote that one in your response. When the next one happens I will be there doing the same thing, and you will be blogging about it, trying to change the world."

Your positional is unethical and destructive. I hope you fail at your job.

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45. Comment #392087 by plastictowel on June 29, 2009 at 6:15 am

"Until we have rational civilian leadership, these wars will continue. Hopefully we'll have a couple of years of peace, or some just activities to participate in, with Obama. Thats until the next lunatic get into office. Peaks and troughs."

Obama has proposed indefinite detention without evidence of prisoners as a legal policy. He has augmented the wars in Afghanistan and Pakistan. He passed an emergency war funding bill 2 weeks ago for 106 billion dollars that the voters can not view the allocation of said funds. His OMB has estimated the defense budget to increased more under him then ANY past president (since WWII) - 5trillion over a decade. He just passed a bill of $750million to build permanent US bases in Pakistan. We still have 130,000 troops in Iraq, and 250,000 'private contractors' in Iraq, Pakistan, and Afghanistan. The president's of both Pakistan and Afghanistan have pleaded that he stop using predator drones, and he has refused. 3million INNOCENT citizens of NW Pakistan are now HOMELESS as a result of this war (we have not killed 3 million 'muslim radicals' ergo net loss - not a victory). No, I do not see Obama bringing in an era of peace. The American empire continues to grow, while social spending, and quibbling over 'is health care even affordable' are hot button issues with clear solutions (stop being world police).

Pfui!
I'll recommend a book, Chalmers Johnson - Blowback. Former cold-warrior. Perhaps he'll be more articulate on the matter for you.

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46. Comment #392089 by plastictowel on June 29, 2009 at 6:18 am

"As I recall, Bin Laden didn't see the distinction between those in power and those that vote. Plastictowel is therefore as guilty as Bush in this case (as is Maddawg :-)) regardless whether one voted for Bush or not. If one is a part of the country that democratically elected a leader who subsequently ordered soldiers to fight, one is as guilty of the blood shed as the leader.

Something like that, anyway :-) "


You're correct, like our President's, Osama Bin Laden viewed innocent, aloof, citizens, as collateral damage. I am as guilty, as those 500,000 dead children under sanctions. What does that tell you about us? It's easy to point the finger at him, but to be ethically consistent, you need to re-consider who else is guilty of the same crime. Who is operating under the same narrow-mindedness as Laden. I am guilty for being fortuitously born here...fair enough. But if your income remains at a certain level, it does not go toward war spending. I ensure that little gem everyday. Oh and I also don't carry out the war physically - unlike some posters...

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47. Comment #392090 by plastictowel on June 29, 2009 at 6:20 am

"After reading plastictowels diatribe"
Wow objective facts have become diatribe on the dawkins website...what a 180!

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48. Comment #392101 by root2squared on June 29, 2009 at 6:48 am

I think this is a very good summation of the Iraq war.

http://www.safecom.org.au/arundhati-roy.htm

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49. Comment #392239 by Goldy on June 29, 2009 at 4:42 pm

Oh and I also don't carry out the war physically - unlike some posters...

You voted...and even if the person you voted for did not win, that is neither here nor there because you participated in the process and accepted the result. Your actions are as physical as the ones of soldiers sent to fight.

You're serious? You think his guns gave homes?

Yes. Unfortunately, in the aftermath of the invasion, many people took it upon themselves to redefine their neighbourhoods by ethnic cleansing. I am sure you know how that works. Without the security provided by yet more guns, held this time by militaries, more homes would have been lost. Schools have been built by gun wielding soldiers too, along with other infrastructure products.

Right, you participated in prosecuting the war.

And so did you, as has been pointed out previously.

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50. Comment #392244 by root2squared on June 29, 2009 at 4:55 pm

50. Comment #392239 by Goldy

You voted...and even if the person you voted for did not win, that is neither here nor there because you participated in the process and accepted the result. Your actions are as physical as the ones of soldiers sent to fight.

That is not fair at all. If this poster was against the war, then he is in no way responsible for the actions of his government except in a very minute techinical way.

There is HUGE difference between someone who is actively carrying out an illegal war, and someone who opposes it, but cannot do anything about it.

Edit: If you are going to make every person in a country responsible for all of its government's actions, then even terrorism is justified.

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