Sunday, June 28, 2009 | Reason : Children and Religion | print version

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[UPDATED] There'll be no tent for God at Camp Dawkins

by Lois Rogers - TIMESONLINE

UPDATE: 18 July 2009 cartoon from "The Week"
RD Camp

UPDATE: Response from Richard Dawkins:

The Editor
The Sunday Times
London

Sir

The duplicity of Lois Rogers' title, "Dawkins Sets up Kids' Camp to Groom Atheists" (Sunday Times, June 28th), is exceeded only by its Jesuitical opening line, "Give Richard Dawkins a child for a week's summer camp and he will try to give you an atheist for life." I had nothing to do with the setting up of Camp Quest, and it is not, in any sense whatever, inspired by me, or influenced by me. The British version, run by Samantha Stein with no help from me, follows the admirable American model founded some years ago by Edwin and Helen Kagin, of Kentucky.

Lois Rogers asked me for a quotation, and she thanked me warmly for the following: "Camp Quest encourages children to think for themselves, sceptically and rationally. There is no indoctrination, just encouragement to be open-minded, while having fun." Isn't that about as far from Jesuitical grooming as you could imagine? One of my dominant motivations, passionately expressed in The God Delusion, is an abhorrence of childhood indoctrination, of atheism just as much as of religion. It is in this spirit that the Richard Dawkins Foundation for Reason and Science has made very modest contributions to Camp Quest. Lois Rogers' traducing of both Camp Quest and me is, alas, par for the course for religiously motivated journalists. Fortunately, I am not the litigious type, but an apology would be nice.

Richard Dawkins
Oxford

Other links:
Times Online & Sunday Times in print:"Dawkins sets up kids' camp to groom atheists"

Times Online: "There'll be no tent for God at Camp Dawkins"

Times Online: "Final Word: Let's have atheist jokes around the campfire"

Guardian: "Richard Dawkins backs atheist camp to give children 'godless alternative' "

Daily Mail Online: "Richard Dawkins launches children's summer camp for atheists"

The only one that doesn't mention Dawkins: BBC Online: "New atheist summer camp launched"

Telegraph: "Richard Dawkins launches summer camp for atheists"

The First Post-The Week Magazine: "Dawkins funds atheist summer camp"

Examiner.com Atlanta - Evangelical Examiner:"Brainwashing kids the Richard Dawkins Way"

Examiner.com Atlanta - Atheism Examiner: "Richard Dawkins Breeding Atheists?"

Repost of Guardian article on E Science News

Robert Bonnett's Blog: "School of Atheism"

Buttle's World blog

The BEattitude blog

Pleiotropy blog

Above Top Secret: discussion of Guardian article

Discussion of Times print article on Republican Newsvine

Discussion on Science Blips

Thanks to LWS for the link.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article6591231.ece

blank

WHEN schoolchildren break up for their summer holidays at the end of next month, India Jago, aged 12, and her brother Peter, 11, will be taking a vacation with a twist.

While their friends jet off to Spain or the Greek islands, the siblings will be hunting for imaginary unicorns in Somerset, while learning about moral philosophy. The Jagos, from Basingstoke, Hampshire, are among 24 children who will be taking part in Britain’s first summer camp for atheists.

The five-day retreat is being subsidised by Richard Dawkins, the evolutionary biologist and author of The God Delusion, and is intended to provide an alternative to faith-based summer camps normally run by the Scouts and Christian groups.

Crispian Jago, an IT consultant, is hoping the experience will enrich his two children.

“I’m very keen on not indoctrinating them with religion or creeds,” he said this weekend. “I would rather equip them with the tools to learn how to think, not what to think.”

While afternoons at the camp will involve familiar activities such as canoeing and swimming, the youngsters’ mornings will be spent debunking supernatural phenomena such as the formation of crop circles and telepathy. Even Uri Geller’s apparent ability to bend spoons with his mind will come under scrutiny.
...
Continue reading
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article6591231.ece

Posted: Sunday, June 28, 2009 | Permalink

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1. Comment #391754 by adamd164 on June 28, 2009 at 5:12 am

The headings of both this piece, and also the one on the cover of today's Times, are disingenuous, populist trash. Both articles are also riddled with weasel words.

Other Comments by adamd164

2. Comment #391757 by Cartomancer on June 28, 2009 at 5:18 am

Blimey, that's just a few miles up the river from where I live in Somerset. Nice to know the atheism is getting into out of the way places like home.

Other Comments by Cartomancer

3. Comment #391758 by Librarian on June 28, 2009 at 5:23 am

I love the idea of this camp. I agree about the headlines though. One point Professor Dawkins continually makes is you cannot label a child an Atheist, Christian or Hindu. They have to figure it out for themselves. Children are drawn to science and weird things like the supernatural. Giving them the skills to think things through and use reason is a fabulous idea. I only wish my 10 year old niece was going to this camp instead of church camp.

Other Comments by Librarian

4. Comment #391759 by DamnDirtyApe on June 28, 2009 at 5:30 am

I had an amazing conversation with my Nephew recently. He's a big Richard fan already! I was talking with him about evolution and... well, I'm pretty busy at work at moment and I keep using too many big words. So he basically said 'why do you always make things so complicated?'

Which of course, is exactly the right thing to say when someone like me goes into waffle mode! It should indeed be simple.

And him and my sister talked about Jean-Paul Satre.

He also plays Guitar. win. He'd love to go to something like this I reckon.

Other Comments by DamnDirtyApe

5. Comment #391760 by Ygern on June 28, 2009 at 5:45 am

I'm not convinced that the writer of this piece intended to discredit either the camp or Richard Dawkins, but managed to do this nonetheless by using tendentious phrases and words that she thought might make the article "interesting".

Judging from the comments over there, whatever her intentions, she has certainly managed to achieve the goal of allowing a significant number of people to believe that Richard will be teaching atheism to children this summer.

I wish the camp the very best success. It sounds brilliant, and I hope the children attending have a wonderful time.

Other Comments by Ygern

6. Comment #391761 by Jos Gibbons on June 28, 2009 at 5:50 am

Camp Dawkins? How many lies can they squeeze in to their writing? He helped fund it, big deal - it's not his camp. People will come away from that title (if they don't read the whole article) with this image of Dawkins setting himself up as a cult leader. Frankly, I don't know how these journalists even sleep at night.

Other Comments by Jos Gibbons

7. Comment #391762 by adamd164 on June 28, 2009 at 6:01 am

@Ygern,

the author of this piece also had one on the front page: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article6591236.ece

I think you might change your view if you read that too.

Other Comments by adamd164

8. Comment #391764 by Crazycharlie on June 28, 2009 at 6:10 am

These camps are a great idea. My daughter is only a year old but, we'll have her go when she's old enough. Let's hope they catch on.

Other Comments by Crazycharlie

9. Comment #391770 by Jos Gibbons on June 28, 2009 at 6:39 am

Comment #391762 by adamd164

Wow, that's even worse. That's just a bare-faced slanderous lie. No doubt RD will turn down the option of making a point of that in court, since he doesn't tend to use legislation to respond to lies, but if ever there were a case of it being deserved it's here. By contrast, it's precisely because RD isn't the lawyering type that this author expects to get away with this.

Other Comments by Jos Gibbons

10. Comment #391773 by Layla Nasreddin on June 28, 2009 at 6:50 am

Just for the record, the title of that Sunday Times article is "Dawkins sets up kids’ camp to groom atheists" and starts off with, "Give Richard Dawkins a child for a week’s summer camp and he will try to give you an atheist for life." (Obviously taking inspiration from the old Jesuit saying, "Give me a child for the first seven years and I will give you the man.)

I do think that strongly-worded letters to the Times are strongly called for here!

Other Comments by Layla Nasreddin

11. Comment #391774 by DamnDirtyApe on June 28, 2009 at 6:52 am

Indeed, the article is utterly retarded. I want to see kids go off to adventure forest type places or biking or doing stuff that's actually fun. That's the point!

I do think that strongly-worded letters to the Times are strongly called for here!

I say, young lady.

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12. Comment #391775 by Ygern on June 28, 2009 at 6:52 am

I stand corrected, thanks for the link Adam. What a disgusting and dishonest diatribe. Still it appears that her readers are not the sharpest knives in the drawer - have a look at this prize comment from one Alan of Luton:

If science has proved God doesn't exist why are they looking for the 'god' particle in CERN with with LHC?

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13. Comment #391782 by David A Robertson on June 28, 2009 at 8:02 am

Truly magnificent! According to the BBC this morning they will sit round the camp fire singing 'Imagine'. A bunch of middle class kids singing fantasy such as, 'Imagine no possessions'....Wonderful, wonderful - beyond satire.

If this is not indoctrination what is it? I assume that no-one will be there to put an opposite point of view and since all the children will be coming from atheist homes and will have already been well indoctrinated by their parents, it is hardly going to be an oasis of reasoned and clear thinking. Just more 'why we are right and all religious people are liars/lunatics'.

Poor atheist parents - your children can't think straight - so you have to send them to atheist boot camps to get sorted out and further inoculated, just in case they get infected with the religious virus. And £500 a pop.....how about giving it to help those who really have no possessions - instead of just imagining them?!

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14. Comment #391783 by bendigeidfran on June 28, 2009 at 8:12 am

Comment #391782 by David A Robertson

I thought you were banned. That's what it says on your blog you have never had.

Don't worry, God will be there.

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15. Comment #391784 by Lemniscate on June 28, 2009 at 8:14 am

Nothing is quite as exquisitely ironic as religious people complaining about indoctrination of children.

How did you come to your Christian beliefs, David Robertson? Did your parents shield you from all thought on God and religion until you were an adult, then present all the extant and extinct religious claims along with non-religious alternatives, accompanied by the relevant evidence and best philosophical arguments from history?

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16. Comment #391785 by bendigeidfran on June 28, 2009 at 8:20 am

He can't answer, he's banned.

Also, if David has one fault, it is perhaps modesty. So I will have to take it upon myself to explain that God chose David, it was not the other way around. God chose David to speak on his behalf, and why not, he is indeed a magnificent beast as one can see from his videos.

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17. Comment #391786 by Steve Zara on June 28, 2009 at 8:39 am

Comment #391785 by bendigeidfran

Sorry? Who's banned?

Anyway I can see how religious people might be worried. Once you show kids that spoons don't bend by the power of the mind, who knows where this will lead?

I'm reading Quantum Gods by Victor Stenger right now. Pretty relevant to all this 'there must be something out there' nonsense.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

18. Comment #391788 by bendigeidfran on June 28, 2009 at 8:44 am

Comment #391786 by Steve Zara

David's banned from here, and God's banned from the camp. God-proof netting is how it's done.

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19. Comment #391789 by AllanW on June 28, 2009 at 8:51 am

Comment #391786 by Steve Zara on June 28, 2009 at 8:39 am

Pretty relevant to all this 'there must be something out there' nonsense.

If only it were harmless nonsense. But the banned poster is one of those who insist that not only is there a force inside this universe that has never been evidenced but that he knows what it wants us to do.

This prompts him to be a homophobic bigot and proven liar as well as posting spam-trash on sites like this where the irony of the substance of his post and the fact that it still appears here despite his deluded ravings to the contrary, seems to pass him by.

On-topic; providing an entertaining and stimulating environment for children free from indoctrination in superstitious nonsense is a worthwhile cause. Well done to the organisers and funders.

As you can see by the desperate whinings of the religiots, prompting people to think clearly and rationally is the biggest defense against prejudice, bigotry and irrationality that has so far been found.

Other Comments by AllanW

20. Comment #391790 by Steve Zara on June 28, 2009 at 8:53 am

Funny use of words in the article.

"Camp Dawkins" reminds me of this:
http://newhumanist.org.uk/assets/img/freePrintedTrial.png

Other Comments by Steve Zara

21. Comment #391791 by quisquose on June 28, 2009 at 8:56 am

13. Comment #391782 by David A Robertson on June 28, 2009 at 8:02 am

Truly magnificent! According to the BBC this morning they will sit round the camp fire singing 'Imagine'. A bunch of middle class kids singing fantasy such as, 'Imagine no possessions'....Wonderful, wonderful - beyond satire.

If this is not indoctrination what is it? ...

Yes, that is what the BBC R4 news items seems to suggest this morning. The ones either side and sandwiched between the religious programmes Sunday and Sunday Worship. I think the way it was reported was quite deliberately misleading and meant for a specific audience. It seems that you have taken what was fed to you as gospel.

As I said in the forum, here is what Dame Liz Forgan said when she was reviewing the papers during Broadcasting House, "Richard Dawkins is apparently starting an summer camp for atheist children ..."

The nasty little agenda is quite plain to see, and pretty un-Christian if you ask me.

Other Comments by quisquose

22. Comment #391792 by Steve Zara on June 28, 2009 at 8:57 am

Comment #391789 by AllanW

Bizzare, isn't it?

God is everywhere. The evidence is clear. And yet we supposedly need priests to point out that he is everywhere, and people get worried when kids are encouraged to actually think. Perhaps God is shy and only everywhere when you shut your eyes and your mind.

I begin to see what Richard means when he says that a Universe with a God would be quite different from the one we see.

For one thing, religions would not be needed. There would be no need for NOMA, no argument about accommodation.

Everything would just Fall out from our everyday observations. There would be no need to have to keep Chequing that God was there. There would be a positive Tsunami of evidence.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

23. Comment #391793 by DamnDirtyApe on June 28, 2009 at 9:03 am

Truly magnificent! According to the BBC this morning they will sit round the camp fire singing 'Imagine'. A bunch of middle class kids singing fantasy such as, 'Imagine no possessions'....Wonderful, wonderful - beyond satire.

First they ignore you, then they laugh at you?
Hopefully you'll skip the next step. :)

Other Comments by DamnDirtyApe

24. Comment #391795 by Steve Zara on June 28, 2009 at 9:09 am

Comment #391793 by DamnDirtyApe

I do hope they don't have to sing "Imagine". It is a dreary song; almost as bad as most hymns.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

25. Comment #391796 by robotaholic on June 28, 2009 at 9:09 am

Why does David Robertson continually visit Richarddawkins.net? What a pitiful loser.
If I wanted to visit tardtown I'd go look at his 'blog'.

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26. Comment #391797 by Layla Nasreddin on June 28, 2009 at 9:12 am

Oh, goody, now the Daily Mail has joined the fray! I can only wonder what 'the usual suspects' will have to say about it (though there's already a pretty good hint in Robertson's comment on this thread).
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196063/Richard-Dawkins-launches-childrens-summer-camp-atheists.html

The BBC report: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/somerset/8123263.stm

Other Comments by Layla Nasreddin

27. Comment #391798 by Steve Zara on June 28, 2009 at 9:12 am

debunking supernatural phenomena such as the formation of crop circles

Eh? Crop circles do form! Someone actually makes them. One suggestion is stoned kangaroos:
http://trueslant.com/coffey/2009/06/25/stoned-kangaroos-making-crop-circles/

Other Comments by Steve Zara

28. Comment #391799 by robotaholic on June 28, 2009 at 9:13 am

Comment #391792 by Steve Zara

You forgot that god is outside of space and time and so is not subject to inspection
Oh and god is also everywhere too...

Other Comments by robotaholic

29. Comment #391800 by DamnDirtyApe on June 28, 2009 at 9:14 am

I would prefer they got to sing 'do what you want cause a pirate is free, you are a pirate!'

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30. Comment #391802 by phiwilli on June 28, 2009 at 9:28 am

Where do they get that ridiculous "can't prove a negative" thing? Even RD seems taken in by it. See:

http://departments.bloomu.edu/philosophy/pages/content/hales/articles/proveanegative.html

Other Comments by phiwilli

31. Comment #391804 by robotaholic on June 28, 2009 at 9:41 am

Phiwilli, I think what RD and others mean is that they don't have to. See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof

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32. Comment #391805 by Cartomancer on June 28, 2009 at 9:43 am

Where do they get that ridiculous "can't prove a negative" thing? Even RD seems taken in by it.

If I can be forgiven for putting on my "Oracle of Dawkins" hat and pretending that I know what Richard actually thinks, that statement is rather disingenuous. Richard's discussion of the use of induction to "prove" negative propositions is very similar indeed to the way it is discussed in the article you cite. He is certainly not guilty of the inconsistent reasoning it attacks.

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33. Comment #391806 by bendigeidfran on June 28, 2009 at 9:45 am

Comment #391802 by phiwilli

When I used to work in a bread factory I used to put exposed photographic film in the dough. It was easy to prove a negative.

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34. Comment #391808 by Cartomancer on June 28, 2009 at 9:47 am

Also, am I the only one who imagines Richard mincing around in a sequin-covered suit and making strained innuendos when I hear the phrase "Camp Dawkins"?

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35. Comment #391810 by Steve Zara on June 28, 2009 at 9:54 am

Comment #391808 by Cartomancer

No!
Comment #391790 by Steve Zara

Other Comments by Steve Zara

36. Comment #391814 by BlueCollar8theist on June 28, 2009 at 10:17 am

The idea for the camp is excellent! It is to be fully expected however, that the religious would take shots at it. This kind of finger-pointing, mud-slinging misinformation is absolutely typical of a set of minds buried far up their respective owners backsides.

Other Comments by BlueCollar8theist

37. Comment #391820 by epeeist on June 28, 2009 at 10:31 am

Comment #391802 by phiwilli:

Where do they get that ridiculous "can't prove a negative" thing? Even RD seems taken in by it. See:

As it says there, one can prove a negative in a deductive system of logic.

Unfortunately in science we don't deal with deduction for discovery, though we may use it for justification. We use induction, which as the article rightfully says, means that we cannot prove a negative or non-existence.

Other Comments by epeeist

38. Comment #391822 by robaylesbury on June 28, 2009 at 10:45 am

Before you know it we'll be teaching our kids to "give til it hurts"

Are they going to have snakes there! We can see if reason makes our kiddies immune to snake bites!

Other Comments by robaylesbury

39. Comment #391823 by robaylesbury on June 28, 2009 at 10:49 am

On a more serious note, what is the program like at the camp. I'm interested in the itinary.

Other Comments by robaylesbury

40. Comment #391839 by Bueller_007 on June 28, 2009 at 11:56 am

I'm confused. Doesn't a children's summer camp "for atheists" go against Dawkins' policy of not labelling children? I know the article is somewhat mischaracterizing the actual motives of the camp, but even the official website for the camp says:
"Children at Camp Quest aren’t 'required' to be atheists."

Other Comments by Bueller_007

41. Comment #391841 by Layla Nasreddin on June 28, 2009 at 12:02 pm

#39 robaylesbury

Camp Quest's website is linked on the very front page of RD.net. (Perhaps the front page is getting a bit too busy at the moment and so it might be more easily overlooked since it's towards the bottom.) They don't quite have a day-to-day itinerary, but they do list the activities and things they plan to do.

Trina Hoaks (the Atheism Examiner who interviewed Dawkins a few of months ago) has a fine article rebutting the claims made in the Times, by the way.

Other Comments by Layla Nasreddin

42. Comment #391846 by Corylus on June 28, 2009 at 12:15 pm

Comment #391841 by Layla Nasreddin:

Trina Hoaks (the Atheism Examiner who interviewed Dawkins a few of months ago) has a fine article rebutting the claims made in the Times, by the way.

Thank you Layla, that is a good article.

Other Comments by Corylus

43. Comment #391848 by sirmailbox on June 28, 2009 at 12:20 pm

I'm skeptical. I'm strongly of the opinion that children should not be taught atheism directly, but rather, be given the tools of the scientific method and be left to make up their own minds. If we've done a good job, then a majority of them will see through religious claims on their own. That isn't to say, of course, that one couldn't use a particular religious claim as a case study in a lesson on debunking questionable arguments. But an atheist camp strikes me as just as propagandistic as a Christian camp.

It's all too easy to make an exception for this camp because it espouses the views we happen to hold. Richard Dawkins has emphasized that children should be taught how to think, not what to think. I think that's a profoundly solid model on which to base education. I just wonder to what extent this camp leans towards the "what" instead of the "how". Is God's existence merely a case study in a much more broad curriculum, at the center of which are the methods of reason? Or is God's existence the overwhelming focus of the entire camp? The integrity of the curriculum depends on the answer to that question.

"The emphasis on critical thinking is epitomised by a test called the Invisible Unicorn Challenge. Children will be told by camp leaders that the area around their tents is inhabited by two unicorns. The activities of these creatures, of which there will be no physical evidence, will be regularly discussed by organisers, yet the children will be asked to prove that the unicorns do not exist. Anyone who manages to prove this will win a £10 note - which features an image of Charles Darwin, the father of evolutionary theory - signed by Dawkins, a former professor of the public understanding of science at Oxford University."

I'm sorry, but I blushed at this paragraph. This is exactly what our opponents in the God debate would say if asked to describe, as mockingly and sarcastically as possible, what an atheist camp would be like. Does Daniel Dennett dress as Santa Claus and ask the kids to disprove his existence? Is there a William Lane Craig piñata that spills out caricatured cosmological arguments when broken? Does the flying spaghetti monster perform stand-up comedy at dinner? Why are the typical icons of internet atheists being paraded around at a children's camp? Does no one find this utterly frivolous?

Other Comments by sirmailbox

44. Comment #391856 by flying goose on June 28, 2009 at 12:33 pm

I can't think of anything worse, well actually a religious one. But apart from that. Sorry to be so negative.

More positively. I have just spent three days on a camp in mid wales. No religion, no atheism, just rock climbing, walking, caving, zip wires, canoeing and orienteering. What more could anyone want?

Sorry, but I would not send my children on a christian camp, and I would not send them in this. It 'feels' like everthing that makes me cringe about christians trying to appeal to kids through the back door of another activity.

Lets make reason fun, etc, kids loved it

Other Comments by flying goose

45. Comment #391857 by JAMCAM87 on June 28, 2009 at 12:33 pm

There really can't be any serious objection to such a summer camp except for the fact it might seem like we are labelling children as atheists which is precisely what Richard doesn't want to do. However, I fail to see how indoctrinating children with the ability to think critically is indoctrination (as David suggests). What would be indoctrination would be to tell children that there is no god and not let them question it. It would not even be unfair to tell children that god is highly unlikely given the lack of evidence in his favour. This is reasonable, scientific and NOT indoctrination. So I guess the camp must be really careful to keep it about critical thinking and NOT about atheism.

Other Comments by JAMCAM87

46. Comment #391858 by JAMCAM87 on June 28, 2009 at 12:36 pm

Is there a William Lane Craig piñata that spills out caricatured cosmological arguments when broken?

Hilarious.

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47. Comment #391859 by Diacanu on June 28, 2009 at 12:37 pm

David R. Robertson-

I assume that no-one will be there to put an opposite point of view

Well, if you're so concerned about that, how about one of us pop into your church to naysay your sermons?

Other Comments by Diacanu

48. Comment #391860 by JAMCAM87 on June 28, 2009 at 12:44 pm

Diacanu

I can just imagine one of David's sermons.

"So what is wrong with Richard Dawkins? Well he's a fundamentalist atheist. He wrote a polemic not a book about science. The atheists on RD.net are RD's cronies and do everything he says bla, bla, bla"

So much so, that during his sermon everyone's forgotten about the whole god thing. Maybe DR will start the "Church for the Opposition of RD and RD.net" and forget about god altogether. He might see an increase in the size of his congregation.

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49. Comment #391863 by JonahJameson on June 28, 2009 at 12:49 pm

This subject has come up here on the BBC 5live message boards.

Can someone help me get through to this litany of raving numpties? I’m just a dumb number cruncher; I can’t seem to be able to get them to grasp the “invisible unicorn” thing!

Unfortunately, the BBC doesn’t re-open until 9.0 am (UK time) tomorrow.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mbfivelive/F2148564?thread=6714076

Other Comments by JonahJameson

50. Comment #391865 by Corylus on June 28, 2009 at 12:51 pm

Comment #391856 by flying goose:

More positively. I have just spent three days on a camp in mid wales. No religion, no atheism, just rock climbing, walking, caving, zip wires, canoeing and orienteering. What more could anyone want?

A comfortable bed, a spa treatment, a decent bottle of claret and some shops.