1. Comment #392962 by Cartomancer on July 2, 2009 at 12:53 pm

Kern is entitled to her views, of course, just as the rest of us are. And while Kern and others hold that the Bible condemns homosexuality, many other equally spiritual Americans believe otherwise.

And almost all non-spiritual Americans, not to mention the rest of the reality-based community worldwide, know that what the bible might say on any matter is entirely immaterial to the legal, social and moral realities that matter gives rise to.

The writer of this article is clearly a good person - keen on tolerance, freedom and ethical conduct - but it irks me greatly that this is presented as an issue of one interpretation of religious traditions versus another. It matters not one whit whether there are lots of nice, liberal christians who approve of same-sex marriage or whether the lot of them are odious bigoted morons - it is entirely immaterial to the ethical question at hand.

Or, rather, the ethical issue at hand. In my opinion it is horribly demeaning to even ASSUME that there is a question to ask about same-sex marriage. I am deeply offended by the mere suggestion that the full equality of gay people before the law is something to be argued about.

Other Comments by Cartomancer

2. Comment #392964 by Steve Zara on July 2, 2009 at 12:57 pm

In my opinion it is horribly demeaning to even ASSUME that there is a question to ask about same-sex marriage.

*applause*

One of the reasons my husband (I will not have him called anything else) and I went for a civil partnership ceremony in the UK, even thought it was not 'marriage', was to help show how many same-sex couples want true equality. We want to be part of normal society.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

3. Comment #392965 by Cartomancer on July 2, 2009 at 1:00 pm

And yet, apparently, Ben Summerskill (head of Stonewall UK) defends his decision not to lobby the government for full equality on the grounds that "some gay people don't want to get married".

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-13034.html

Such inanity is very worrying.

Other Comments by Cartomancer

4. Comment #392966 by medas2005 on July 2, 2009 at 1:03 pm

150 years ago, people like her would have been defending the enslavement of Africans as a God given right. Today they have found a new population to pick on. They will only continue to evolve as we grant rights and respect to these groups.

Other Comments by medas2005

5. Comment #392967 by Squigit on July 2, 2009 at 1:07 pm

I read that little proclaimation a few days ago...can't remember where, though..maybe it was on here...who knows...and I laughed...until I realized that, considering OK's past, she may be able to get a great many signatures...*sigh*....

Other Comments by Squigit

6. Comment #392970 by Steve Zara on July 2, 2009 at 1:14 pm

Comment #392965 by Cartomancer

I detest the leveraging the inequality of gay people for political purposes.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

7. Comment #392972 by Dhamma on July 2, 2009 at 1:20 pm

Just because I find it brilliant - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOO7fGoKY_I&feature=related

This commercial is more powerful than any debate.

Other Comments by Dhamma

8. Comment #392973 by MarshallEvans on July 2, 2009 at 1:23 pm

The republicans are continuing to campaign really hard for the democratic party!! It almost seems as if they are completely self destructing. This is actually a bit disheartening since I would really like to have a good choice during election period, but it looks like I'm gonna have to vote a straight democatic ballot for a while.

Other Comments by MarshallEvans

9. Comment #392975 by Steve Zara on July 2, 2009 at 1:23 pm

Comment #392972 by Dhamma

Thank you for posting that. Wonderful.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

10. Comment #392977 by MarshallEvans on July 2, 2009 at 1:33 pm

Steve Zara:

We want to be part of normal society.

It only takes a little imagination. If you can picture it, we are already on our way. Society will change with us - just wait and see. As I have said before, "Ideas born in a free society are probably the closest we will ever get to sacred truth." The types of proclimations like this one from Oklahoma Republicans have no weight whatsoever on peoples choices. They only further isolate the Republican party. Freedom will last because of the opening of society, not the closing of it, and when the Republicans eventually realize this inherent truth they will change their tune - if only to save themselves from being completely run into the dirt.

Other Comments by MarshallEvans

11. Comment #392978 by mordacious1 on July 2, 2009 at 1:35 pm

Dhamma

Nice commercial!

Also, I would think this lady would have something better to do with her time, like keeping that Dawkins fellow out of her state. :)

Other Comments by mordacious1

12. Comment #392979 by Steve Zara on July 2, 2009 at 1:45 pm

Comment #392977 by MarshallEvans

I see encouraging surveys of people in their 20's in Western Europe and the USA that reveal a very supportive attitude to total equality. So many young people simply can't see what the fuss about gay equality is about - of course gay people are equal. I am not sure that reactionary attitudes are restricted to Republicans - my impression is that it is an age thing. Wait 10 or 20 years, and there will be astonishment as to why gay people had to wait so long for complete equality.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

13. Comment #392983 by Ivan The Not So Bad on July 2, 2009 at 2:00 pm

Meanwhile, over in Connecticut, another similarly obsessed nutfuck:

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/US/06/25/connecticut.gay.exorcism/#cnnSTCVideo

Other Comments by Ivan The Not So Bad

14. Comment #392984 by Dhamma on July 2, 2009 at 2:00 pm

Steve and Mordy - I'm glad you liked it. I link to it every now and then so no one can escape it.

Perhaps I should post it on Stormfront as well :)

Other Comments by Dhamma

15. Comment #392986 by moniz on July 2, 2009 at 2:04 pm

Now there's a woman that could use a good flogging! Just kidding!...maybe.

Other Comments by moniz

16. Comment #392987 by j.mills on July 2, 2009 at 2:15 pm

a document that would "acknowledge the need for a national awakening of righteousness."

Here was me thinking all this time that wrongteousness was the way to go.

And while Kern and others hold that the Bible condemns homosexuality, many other equally spiritual Americans believe otherwise.

That's irksome though. "Equally spiritual"? It comes in degrees? Competition: come up with a name for a device that measures a person's quantity of spirituality - and the units of measure. (Gils?)

Other Comments by j.mills

17. Comment #392989 by scottishgeologist on July 2, 2009 at 2:26 pm

Steve:

I see encouraging surveys of people in their 20's in Western Europe and the USA that reveal a very supportive attitude to total equality. So many young people simply can't see what the fuss about gay equality is about - of course gay people are equal.

Yes, very encouraging. Pity that a lot of churches are so hate filled on this though. The recent furore here over a gay minister in Aberdeen just shows how out of touch these people are with young people -the very people they need to attract to sustain their congregations!

As ever our old chum has his oar in:-

http://www.stpeters-dundee.org.uk/node/93

Grim, just grim.

:-)
SG

Other Comments by scottishgeologist

18. Comment #392990 by Squigit on July 2, 2009 at 2:28 pm

Dhamma--
Powerful, indeed...I made sure to share the link as well...:D

Other Comments by Squigit

19. Comment #392992 by Mr DArcy on July 2, 2009 at 2:31 pm

No doubt Rep. Kern would approve the lyrics of the Merle Haggard song "Okie from Muskogee"

http://www.cowboylyrics.com/lyrics/haggard-merle/okie-from-muskogee-497.html

I particularly like the one;
"We like holding hands and pitchin' woo".

"Woo" presumably had a different meaning in the 60s?

Other Comments by Mr DArcy

20. Comment #392995 by Rodger T on July 2, 2009 at 2:37 pm

Now she wants to take her message of hellfire and brimstone all across the land

For fucks sake, would there be anybody in the western world that has`nt heard this message in the last 1000 years?

Love god or burn in hell.

Don`t forget jebus loves you while he`s roasting your arse over the flames of hellfire ,its for your own good.

Other Comments by Rodger T

21. Comment #392996 by GBile on July 2, 2009 at 2:38 pm

j.mills

I once proposed to use the 'Falwell' as the unit for religious delusion (combined with the deludometer). Spirituality has so many meanings, but in some respects the Falwell might be used.

Other Comments by GBile

22. Comment #392999 by notsobad on July 2, 2009 at 2:43 pm

"We believe our economic woes are consequences of our greater national moral crisis,"

Well, she is right about that.

Other Comments by notsobad

23. Comment #393001 by Steve Zara on July 2, 2009 at 2:49 pm

Comment #392989 by scottishgeologist

I had mixed feelings about that. Pleasure and hope after that minister's position was confirmed, but sadness because someone with his courage was fighting for something so absurd as his position of minister in the Church of Scotland.

As for David Robertson's position, words fail me.

Well, actually, they don't, so here I go:

For nearly 14 billion years, the universe has been evolving. The first stars formed. They were huge stars, and after their brief lives they left behind vast black holes that were the cores of future galaxies. Around these nucleii of future galaxies the dark matter gathered, forming huge spheres that sucked in gas. Deep in the centres of these dark matter spheres vortices of photon-sensitive gas formed flat vortices that we see as the milky ways of the heavens.

Within one such milky way, the results of supernovas gathered to form a star and its planets, 4 billion years ago. Then, the planets started to form. Two planets collided and the result was our planet Earth, and it's Moon. And so, our home was born. We look back at the very beginning with sensitive radio telescopes that lets us see the radiation from the beginning - the cosmic microwave background.

But within all this, right from the start, even below the pre-inflation quantum vibrations of space that left patterns in the cosmic microwave background, God wrote: "Don't put willies in men's bums".

That is precisely what David Robertson believes. Even more strangely, he thinks his brain has a sub-quantum neural sensor that allows him to detect that willy/bum message in the fabric of God's creation.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

24. Comment #393002 by Mr DArcy on July 2, 2009 at 2:50 pm

SG, nice link re the Wee Free. It seems Robertson's brothers in Christ are worse than us lot!

Nice quote in there about how the FCOS has decided that the Bible is not the entire word of God, and that the Commission would decide which bits were kosher. David evidently disagrees, and evidently believes that once upon a time a snake talked!

Other Comments by Mr DArcy

25. Comment #393003 by Good Reason News on July 2, 2009 at 2:52 pm

Kern is NOT entitled to her views like the rest of us are, because she is a representative of the people and she's been elected, essentially hired, by the people of her state to represent THEIR views in public.

Other Comments by Good Reason News

26. Comment #393005 by DeepFritz on July 2, 2009 at 2:56 pm

I just love the Homosexuality is a greater threat than terrorism. I think these sort of people need to be placed in a room and told to leave by one of the exits...
Exit number one has a terrorist who will shoot them if they pass through that door.
Exit number 2 will have 2 gay people holding hands.

I wonder which exit they would choose£££

Personally I hope exit number 1...

Other Comments by DeepFritz

27. Comment #393006 by phasmagigas on July 2, 2009 at 3:07 pm

cartomancer

Or, rather, the ethical issue at hand. In my opinion it is horribly demeaning to even ASSUME that there is a question to ask about same-sex marriage.

I suppose its in the same league as 'teach the controversy' when there simply isnt an issue, or at least there shouldnt be an issue.

Other Comments by phasmagigas

28. Comment #393007 by KRKBAB on July 2, 2009 at 3:08 pm

Comment #392983 by Ivan The Not So Bad - Go Bridgeport, CT- the place I was born. It really makes me proud! You call this lady another obsessed nutfuck (which she is), but a sad and important fact is that these people (especially in the USA) are not hard to find. They're everywhere and it's fucking disgusting. Education can't solve everything, but it sure would diminish the possibility of people turning out this ignorant.

Other Comments by KRKBAB

29. Comment #393008 by BicycleRepairMan on July 2, 2009 at 3:10 pm

http://www.videosift.com/video/Fuck-you-very-very-much-from-France

Other Comments by BicycleRepairMan

30. Comment #393009 by phasmagigas on July 2, 2009 at 3:16 pm

That is precisely what David Robertson believes. Even more strangely, he thinks his brain has a sub-quantum neural sensor that allows him to detect that willy/bum message in the fabric of God's creation.

DR's obviously been thinking a little too hard about those willies and bums!

Other Comments by phasmagigas

31. Comment #393011 by Cartomancer on July 2, 2009 at 3:22 pm

It does amaze me the extent to which religious types obsess about boy-on-boy anal sex. Seems it's all they ever think about: two men, anal sex, over and over, all day long. They even think about it more than me, which I can assure you is quite a feat of time management.

Other Comments by Cartomancer

32. Comment #393013 by robotaholic on July 2, 2009 at 3:36 pm

bicyclerepairman, almost all those ppl in that video were cute lol

Other Comments by robotaholic

33. Comment #393014 by Baron Scarpia on July 2, 2009 at 3:37 pm

I really think we need to widen the issue on accommodationists. I've been saying for some time that just as we should keep religion out of science, we badly need to keep it out of ethics.

And the more I think about it, the weirder it becomes - people like Robertson claim that an omnipotent, universe-creating being cares about my partner's gender, and they know this because they have a direct link to it?

And for heaven's sake, this is an OMNIPOTENT, ALL-KNOWING BEING. Can't he fight his own battles? Is he so dependent on brain-dead specimens like Kern to do so?

Other Comments by Baron Scarpia

34. Comment #393015 by Goldy on July 2, 2009 at 3:38 pm

Seems it's legal now in India
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8129836.stm
and the Have Your Say
http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?forumID=6679&edition=2&ttl=20090702233455
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8130052.stm

of course, it's all Britain's fault :-) Britain's fault for bringing in homosexuality and Britain's fault for the draconian anti-gay laws...

Other Comments by Goldy

35. Comment #393019 by cerebate on July 2, 2009 at 4:08 pm

Comment #393015 by Goldy
You'd be surprised (well not really) at some of the venom being spewed by Indians as comments in some of the Indian news sites. The funniest being the repeated assertions that Gay sex is *unnatural*.

Other Comments by cerebate

36. Comment #393020 by scottishgeologist on July 2, 2009 at 4:08 pm

Steve

I know what you mean about the gay minister - seems such a waste. He is clearly a man with considerable "pastoral" skills and his parishioners were totally supportive of him

However one of the things about this case , which is interesting, and as a seasoned observer of all things "Scotch Presbyterian!", really surprised me was the sheer volume of homophobia that got whipped up over this. It was like watching the tape of time rewind a couple of hundred years.

Davids statements were bad enough, but the comments from a certain Daily Mail (yes I know...) journalist were just evil eg:

"At our (Free Presbyterian) prayer meeting at Achmore on Lewis, on Tuesday night, the atmosphere was close to a wake and outside, afterwards, the talk was how the weekend’s events felt like a stain on our own souls. The fact is that the Scott Rennie affair has not merely been a catastrophe for the Kirk; it is a dreadful milestone in the history of our country"

or

"The sun shines and one wonders why it is still doing that. The lead weight inside doesn’t go away night or day. Prayer life is disrupted, and sometimes deadened into formality. You feel that everybody is “looking” at you in pity, and the merest hint of a kind word or mention of the situation threatens to dissolve one into floods of unmanly tears, of which so many have already been uncontrollably shed, and even as I write, are waiting threateningly just under the surface"

or

"In approving the settlement of an actively homosexual minister in Aberdeen, the Church of Scotland General Assembly has chosen sodomy over Scripture"

or

"There can be no doubt that something died in the soul of the Assembly with the tragedy of the Saturday night “case” – but Tuesday was the day the corpse of personal purity was taken back out to be desecrated. This is the Established Church of Scotland in the year of Our Lord 2009"

or

"you can well believe that those of us who were Commissioners at the shameful event simply and literally want to die, as indeed a part of us already has"

or

"Even ten years ago, a Kirk minister in an open homosexual relationship would have been quietly deposed. Thirty years ago, he would have been helping the police with their inquiries"

And best of all:

"It is difficult, probably, for anyone who is not a Christian and does not regularly attend church to grasp the extraordinary sense of shame – of, somehow, being personally defiled – at last weekend's decision of the Church of Scotland General Assembly.

The Kirk not merely condoned the lifestyle of the Reverend Scott Rennie – who lives in an open homosexual relationship with another man – but sanctioned his move to a new charge, Queen's Cross in Aberdeen. That misery stains thousands of Scots well beyond the fold of the Kirk"

This is from the same journalist who lost his job as a columnist for the Glasgow Herald after writing this about the 2 Soham schoolgirls who were murdereed:

"'Had the parents of Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman kept the Lord's Day, their daughters would still be alive. 'They would have spent the day at rest or the private and public worship of God, and not been wandering the countryside, prey for whatever evil finally befell them"

I sometimes wonder if pity is more appropriate than anger...

SG

Other Comments by scottishgeologist

37. Comment #393021 by alaskansee on July 2, 2009 at 4:09 pm

I live in Alberta, Canada, home of the Calgary stampede and many a manly cowboy - where gay marriage has been legal for 4-5 years now.

I am happy to report that despite a bit of shouting as the laws were pasted it has been less controversial than a wild rose in a midden.

It is nothing more than an additional series of more interesting than usual weddings to attend. Hurray for the enlightened cowboys and girls whatever way they saddle-up.

Other Comments by alaskansee

38. Comment #393022 by TIKI AL on July 2, 2009 at 4:13 pm

I would like to thank gay hating Rep Sally Kern who is married to a Baptist pastor in Oklahoma City for helping the GOP break the sound barrier on their downward spiral.

Other Comments by TIKI AL

39. Comment #393023 by j.mills on July 2, 2009 at 4:29 pm

Steve Z (#23): made me laugh!!

GBile (#21) said:

I once proposed to use the 'Falwell' as the unit for religious delusion...

Whoa! That sounds like way too big a unit! We'd need to deal in milli-Falwells. (1 milli-Falwell = 10 Rowans?)

I'm reminded of the measure of female beauty, the milli-Helen, defined as that amount of beauty sufficient to launch a single ship. :)

Other Comments by j.mills

40. Comment #393025 by Goldy on July 2, 2009 at 4:41 pm

35. Comment #393019 by cerebate
I like some of the comments in HYS in the Beeb. Homosexuality is a western invention brought to India yet the law making the act illegal is also a western import keeping India back. Damned if we do and damned if we don't - if any doubt, blame the Brits ;-)

Other Comments by Goldy

41. Comment #393028 by Goldy on July 2, 2009 at 4:44 pm

37. Comment #393021 by alaskansee
I recall the anger felt by one or two of my workmates (I was in Brooks, doing the oilfield thing) when they were talking in the papers about gays getting equal rights in terms of housing etc.
Mind you, you should have seen the vein in my boss' forehead when I turn up to work with a hammer and sickle badge... :-)

Other Comments by Goldy

42. Comment #393030 by Daniella on July 2, 2009 at 4:46 pm

Oops sorry phasmagigas... I think I accidently tagged your comment 27 as offensive, which it obviously isn't, whilst attempting to quickly click another screen so it looks like I'm working....

Other Comments by Daniella

43. Comment #393036 by RightWingAtheist on July 2, 2009 at 5:07 pm

"not natural..."

The world makes a lot more sense when the nature nuts and the religious nuts are using the same dumb arguments. Whodathunkit, the people who are afraid of butt sex are the same kind of people who are afraid of corn cobs being engineered to grow longer.
Maybe there's a genetic cause of this fixation.

Other Comments by RightWingAtheist

44. Comment #393040 by j.mills on July 2, 2009 at 5:25 pm

RightWingAtheist said:

Whodathunkit, the people who are afraid of butt sex are the same kind of people who are afraid of corn cobs being engineered to grow longer.

I think not. The religites grab onto "unnatural" in the hope they'll get more sympathy than by spouting outright religious bigotry. Now, no doubt there are those among the anti-GM lobby who are twits (and those who aren't), but there's no reason to suppose any significant overlap just 'cos of a similar use of language.

The irony of course is that homo- and bi-sexual behaviours of all kinds have been observed in hundreds of species. If we were to genuinely take our cue from 'nature', we'd all be at it! :)

Great book on the subject: Biological Exuberance

Other Comments by j.mills

45. Comment #393048 by BicycleRepairMan on July 2, 2009 at 6:04 pm

Comment #393013 by robotaholic: bicyclerepairman, almost all those ppl in that video were cute lol

Well, I only could perhaps fancy some of the female ones, but I realize my chances would be pretty slim anyways :). I support their message tho.

Other Comments by BicycleRepairMan

46. Comment #393052 by MaxD on July 2, 2009 at 6:28 pm

I think the religious against nature argument is not an exact match with the Roussauian Nature is good idea. That is I think there is a difference in the concept of nature in Religious settings versus other settings. I think the latter achieved some noteriety with Rousseau anyway. Bible thumping homophobes mean something slightly different. Nature for them isn't exactly the product of biological forces but a set of divine laws humans are suppose to follow (blue laws for males, pink laws for females). If you are not following the purposes for which god made you then you are violating the natural, capital N, order laid down by God, and Jesus. Doing otherwise is joining the opposing forces in the great culture war.

This is why pointing out the numerous examples in nature of homosexual, bi-sexual activity produces little more than dull incomprehension. I think their idea of nature is simple not the same.

EDIT: Attempted clarifications.

Other Comments by MaxD

47. Comment #393053 by cerebate on July 2, 2009 at 6:32 pm

Comment #393040 by j.mills

The religites grab onto "unnatural" in the hope they'll get more sympathy than by spouting outright religious bigotry.

Spot on.
From a liberal muslim (!?)

Q. Why are you brining in religion when the issue is about human rights?
A. I have not uttered a word about religion, so far. I am talking straight. I am talking about the survival of the human race. I am talking about reproduction theory. I am talking of natural process of evolution. Tell me from where reproduction will come? If this is the ideal situation they are talking about, then, where will the world go?

http://www.rediff.com/news/interview/2009/jul/02/interview-homosexuality-goes-against-the-human-race.htm

Other Comments by cerebate

48. Comment #393056 by Enlightenme.. on July 2, 2009 at 6:48 pm

I really cannot fathom it.

What makes people happy to accept theistic evolution, this or that miracle/talking snake/zombie etc being just allegorical, the equality of men & women, slavery, all these things.

But Homosexuality - NO, THIS IS WHERE WE DRAW THE LINE.

It's a bit like being in the Nazi party and being privy to knowledge of the final solution - you had to be trapped into being accountable to something truly evil to be unable ever to escape.

Other Comments by Enlightenme..

49. Comment #393068 by MarshallEvans on July 2, 2009 at 9:49 pm

You know what cracks me up is when the homophobes bring up the whole argument that sexual reproduction and the survival of the species is a stake when the world starts to accept homosexuality.

This is quite laughable. It's as if homosexual acts will cause the whole race to go steril!?

I just don't see how people can reason that same sex couples are going to destroy the race... does it have something to do with sexual efficiency? Sexual reproduction doesn't even have to be highly efficient for a species to propogate - yet it only takes a moment when a woman is ovulating.

If reproductive efficiency is the reasoning for homophobia then why don't we start selectively breeding people? That would be both efficient and effective at the same time!!

Other Comments by MarshallEvans

50. Comment #393070 by Roland_F on July 2, 2009 at 11:05 pm

homosexuality is a greater threat than terrorism

Good that we have so many religiots who are ready to defend the human society, and the wicked priest from Scotland is joining their forces.

Surprisingly the most vocal anti-gay right wing Televangelist or Republicans are often enough caught in the act with an lover boy themselves.

Other Comments by Roland_F