Sunday, July 12, 2009 | Reason : In the News | print version

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Irish Catholics go online to lose religion

by Times Online

Thanks to Adam for the link.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article6689482.ece

A website is acting as a one-stop shop for disgruntled Catholics who want to officially quit their religion, especially in the wake of the Ryan report on child abuse in religious institutions.

So far more than 300 Catholics have indicated their intention formally to leave the church through the website countmeout.ie, set up last month after publication of the report. The creation of three young lapsed Catholics, the facility is designed to provide clear information and the necessary documents to help people leave the church for good.

Hundreds of like-minded people have completed an “actus defectionis” or “declaration of defection” on the site since it went live last Wednesday.

They have completed a three-step process that enables users to get the formal letter required by church officials to change baptism records and allow former followers officially to leave the faith. The document needs to be signed, witnessed and sent to the parish where the person was baptised.

Cormac Flynn, a 29-year-old website designer who describes himself as agnostic, linked up last month with Grainne O’Sullivan and Paul Dunbar to create the online campaign, which also runs on Facebook and Twitter.

“We were concerned by the continuing influence of the church in Ireland and we merely wanted people to use a site like this to make the church aware of their feelings,” said Flynn, from Dundalk, who has been living in Paris for more than two years. “I would be genuinely happy if it even just got people to consider their relationship with the church.”

Those who don’t want to commit to defecting from the church can use the website to register their feelings about the scandals revealed in the Ryan report or the relationship between the church and the state.

Formally defecting from the Catholic church also sends an “unambiguous message” that people with changed beliefs no longer wish to be included in head counts used to justify the church’s role in the state’s services, the campaigners say.

“There are many so-called lapsed Catholics as well as agnostics and atheists in Ireland but the church continues to count them as members,” said Dunbar. “Formally defecting will mean the church can no longer use their large membership to justify continued involvement in the provision of education and health services.”

When a diocese receives a declaration of defection, a clergy member can note in the register of births that the flock member has permanently strayed. But the process is not always that straightforward, Flynn says, because some bishops’ assistants will request a face-to-face meeting before signing off on the document, or the diocese may delay or even ignore the request.

“It varies from diocese to diocese,” Flynn said. “Paul got a response in five days, while others have been ignored.”

Catholic-raised Flynn, a science graduate, has considered himself an agnostic since he was 16. “A lot of people start questioning their religion when they reach their teens, and I was quite a nerdy teenager and into science, and that made me think about it,” he said.

“It’s very hard to throw off the church. I don’t have a particular axe to grind with it and I was surprised by my own reaction to the Ryan report, given that we’ve all known about what went on for a while. I found the details quite shocking.”

Countmeout.ie spells out the consequences of leaving the church. Technically speaking, defecting excludes people from getting married in a Catholic church or having their funeral there, or getting the last rites.

Flynn argues that the application of these rules differs, depending on the parish or priest in question. Campaigners point out that all cemeteries in Ireland accept people of any faith because they are managed by local authorities.

Martin Long, director of the Catholic Communications Office, declined to comment on the website.

He said each of the island’s 26 dioceses has received an average of one defection a year over the past five years. Since the Ryan report’s publication, though, Long’s office has received “a lot of e-mails and letters expressing concern about the content of the report”.

However, the church will always take the view that there is a permanent bond with anyone who has been baptised because “you can never be unbaptised”, said Long.

Posted: Sunday, July 12, 2009 | Permalink

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1. Comment #395552 by Richard Dawkins on July 12, 2009 at 11:48 am

This kind of thing sounds like a futile gesture, UNTIL you realise that churches quote official statistics of membership, and this will often include everyone baptised unless they specifically renounce their baptism. In Germany, and some other countries (I don't know whether Ireland is one of them) people are automatically TAXED for the benefit of the church into which they were baptised!

Richard

Other Comments by Richard Dawkins

2. Comment #395558 by Danish on July 12, 2009 at 12:01 pm

It's basically the same in Denmark. You become a member of the state church (and thereby pay church taxes) once you are baptized. Luckily, the state church generally does not interfere with neither politics nor public opinion. So I guess for most people the main reason for leaving is to save on taxes.

Other Comments by Danish

3. Comment #395559 by Beachbum on July 12, 2009 at 12:02 pm

Wouldn't it just be easier to click on the "unsubscribe" at the bottom of "gods" email.

*hits the door at a dead run*

Other Comments by Beachbum

4. Comment #395561 by KRKBAB on July 12, 2009 at 12:04 pm

This sounds like a good idea in respect to demographics. But the surveys in the USA would be a lot more interesting to me if they differentiated between people just jumping ship from one religion to either another religion or woo- based pholosophy AND people who jump ship from a religion and dive straight into the ocean of reality and become atheist/skeptics. THAT would be a real interesting survey to me!

Other Comments by KRKBAB

5. Comment #395564 by j.mills on July 12, 2009 at 12:12 pm

However, the church will always take the view that there is a permanent bond with anyone who has been baptised because “you can never be unbaptised”, said Long.

"Because we bullied your parents and their parents into putting you through this before you knew any better, we've got you for life."

Excuse me, really, but what a twat.

Other Comments by j.mills

6. Comment #395575 by jcs on July 12, 2009 at 12:39 pm

Comment #395552 by Richard Dawkins

I moved to Germany 2 years ago. When I registered in the city hall they asked me which religious believe I have. It is OK to say 'none' and you won't pay any church taxes in that case.

I assume that Germans can do the same thing by just changing their registration with the city hall.

Other Comments by jcs

7. Comment #395578 by cjnkns on July 12, 2009 at 12:41 pm

Interesting. I might have to do this myself here in the USA.

Other Comments by cjnkns

8. Comment #395581 by Heretic on July 12, 2009 at 12:46 pm

Technically speaking, defecting excludes people from getting married in a Catholic church or having their funeral there, or getting the last rites.

So? Why would anyone who's not a christian want to get married etc in a church. I certainly don't. There are loads equally or more beautiful places to get married for example--Castles, English Heratige stately homes or whatever, the beach... so on.

Other Comments by Heretic

9. Comment #395583 by adamd164 on July 12, 2009 at 12:52 pm

@jcs - I think the point is that if you'd lived in Germany your entire life and were, say, baptised into the Catholic Church, you'd be automatically paying the tax to them. A German friend of mine certainly told me that this was the case.

Other Comments by adamd164

10. Comment #395586 by mcek on July 12, 2009 at 12:54 pm

The funny thing is that the universal Catholic Church has different rules for apostasy in different countries. In Poland for instance it's incredibly tedious and lengthy and an apostasy undertaken in other countries (like Germany) is not considered valid!

Other Comments by mcek

11. Comment #395588 by Beachbum on July 12, 2009 at 1:01 pm

parishioner- "Padre,!"

Father- "Yes?"

parishioner- "Does my baptism still count if I peed in the baptismal bath?"

Father- "This used to happen all the time my son. I am sure your baptism still stands. But, when did you urinate in the holy water, it has been many years since we baptized by submersion?"

parishioner- "Yesterday!"

Please forgive my levity, but I honestly feel that those who committed the atrocities characterized in the Ryan Report should be forced to go door to door, explain their crime and ask if the occupants still wish to be affiliated with such an organization, in tar and feathers of course.

Other Comments by Beachbum

12. Comment #395590 by Rodger T on July 12, 2009 at 1:20 pm

Classic mafia"once you`re in,you can never get out".
Tonight you prolapsed catholics sleep wit da fishies.

Other Comments by Rodger T

13. Comment #395592 by kaiserkriss on July 12, 2009 at 1:28 pm

Back in 1970 when I worked in Germany for a few years as a "Gastarbeiter", I was initially forced to pay church taxes. One quick letter to the tax authorities took care of that; my successful action encouraged several co workers to do the same.

I even got a letter from one of the "Schmarotzer" (parasites) asking me to reconsider my position, which I didn't. jcw

Other Comments by kaiserkriss

14. Comment #395599 by Fiesoduck on July 12, 2009 at 1:37 pm

@jcs - Unfortunately it is not that easy to leave the church. You have to go to the Amtsgericht (Local District Court) or Standesamt (Register office), depending on the state, to quit your religion. In some cases it is even necessary to show marriage licenses or a Familienstammbuch (some kind of family record). And of course you have to pay some money, ranging from 5 Euros in Saxony to up to 50 Euros in parts of Baden-Württemberg.

Other Comments by Fiesoduck

15. Comment #395600 by RightWingAtheist on July 12, 2009 at 1:42 pm

“you can never be unbaptised”, said Long.

Sure you can. What's the opposite of baptism?

Hint: It's only £10, and eligible for free shipping.

Other Comments by RightWingAtheist

16. Comment #395607 by Duff on July 12, 2009 at 2:03 pm

Becoming an ex-Mormon is equally difficult. One must jump through various specific hoops, all of which are design to put you into personal contact with an official of the church who has a personal mission to convince you that what you are doing is going to cause you to be condemned to a fate far worse than hell.

If it is not in your nature to be viciously confrontational, you do what comes naturally, which is simply to ignore the situation and allow your name to stay in the records as a "mormon", but inactive. Personally, I feel it causes them more trouble to be inactive in their records, than to go through the trouble of officially quiting. Whatever gives them more trouble is best.

Other Comments by Duff

17. Comment #395609 by black wolf on July 12, 2009 at 2:16 pm

The statistical numbers game can backfire for the churches. Here in Berlin, they were very sure of their position, trying to re-introduce segregated religion classes a short while ago. It seems they relied on their books that assured them that there were plenty of interested voters to put the plebiscite in their pocket. It turned out that even of the minority who chose to vote, a majority was against the movement, even after they had spent millions to campaign the notion that a vote against segregation was a vote against freedom.

Other Comments by black wolf

18. Comment #395615 by Driver on July 12, 2009 at 2:31 pm

Comment #395607 by Duff

I am what Mormons call an "inactive member". The biggest problem for me in keeping this status instead of having my records removed is that they are always contacting me and asking if I would like to join them in some kind of church activity. No matter where I move, they always seem to find me. I dread the process of getting my name removed, but I don't know how much longer I can tolerate the constant attempts to get me "active" again.

Other Comments by Driver

19. Comment #395618 by jpgj on July 12, 2009 at 2:47 pm

Germany is not the only country where Catholics are forced to pay religious taxes on the basis of baptismal records.
Some of our historically "Catholic" Swiss Cantons also force the catholicly baptised to shell out about 300 Francs a year, and it's becoming a major reason for getting "debaptised" here too, along with anger at the pope's comments on condoms in Africa and the pardon of the holocaust denying bishop from the Econe seminary in our Canton of Valais.

Well,if they want to shoot themselves in the foot, that's their business… :))

But I'm still curious as to why holocaust denying bishop Williamson could move in and out Switzerland for so long without getting arrested by the federal authorities: Holocaust denial is a criminal offence around here and others have gone to jail, but it seems to be OK if you're a divine.

Other Comments by jpgj

20. Comment #395622 by j.mills on July 12, 2009 at 3:03 pm

Incidentally, what would one have to do to get excommunicated? Clearly Holocaust-denial is insufficient, as indeed is facilitating the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis. What about farting on a holy biscuit?

Other Comments by j.mills

21. Comment #395630 by jpgj on July 12, 2009 at 3:46 pm

Comment #395622 by j.mills on July 12, 2009 at 3:03 pm

j.mills

"What about farting on a holy biscuit?" to get excommunicated…

Lovely idea! And cheap too! You or I should tell my German speaking overtaxed Catholic compatriots about this quick-fix, save 'em a lot of paperwork.

Other Comments by jpgj

22. Comment #395632 by glenister_m on July 12, 2009 at 4:25 pm

Re: Comment #395552 by Richard Dawkins

I'm Canadian, but was baptized Church of England when I was 3 months old - more for my English grandparents/great-grandparents than my parents sake. Since I've never lived in England (other than a couple of 3-4 month working holidays), do I need to formally renounce myself so I can't be used as part of their membership statistics? Or is my case an exception (not being Catholic, resident, or taxed)?

Other Comments by glenister_m

23. Comment #395633 by NewEnglandBob on July 12, 2009 at 4:50 pm

Ireland now has a new holy trinity:

- Cormac Flynn

- Grainne O’Sullivan

- Paul Dunbar

congratulation, guys, well done.

Other Comments by NewEnglandBob

24. Comment #395635 by Ubiquitous Che on July 12, 2009 at 5:01 pm

I really should get around to doing this.

I'm living in New Zealand, but was baptized and *blush* confirmed in Australia. Don't blame me about the confirmed Catholic business - in Queensland while I was growing up, Catholic Education high schools give preference to students who are confirmed catholics. The waiting list is usually long enough that most Catholic Education primary schools conduct the Confirmation Sacrament as part of the process of graduating from primary school.

I really need to see about repealing both the baptism and the 'confirmation'.

Anyone got some advice on where to start looking?

Other Comments by Ubiquitous Che

25. Comment #395638 by peahix on July 12, 2009 at 5:07 pm

i find it odd that they say you can never be "un-baptized," especially in light of the fact that in order to re-join the church after defecting, you are required to be re-baptized. why the need to re-baptize unless your original baptism is considered somehow invalid or less meaningful? and if they can re-baptize you, why can't they un-baptize you? not that it really means anything to me at all beyond the simple desire to take an action which would be perceived as "ultra serious" by catholics, in order to better send my message of rejection. to them, it's magic. to me, it's a simple political statement.

i'm guessing the only real reason why you can't be un-baptized is that such a ceremony does not exist, because presumably neither party (the church and the church defector) would be interested in taking part in such a ceremony. so is that really all there is to baptism, in the eyes of the church? just a ceremony, no actual magic going on that could be dispelled by simply signing the proper document?

actually, come to think of it, if they DID have an un-baptism ceremony available, i think i just might go thru with it, for pure theatrical effect and the time/resources it would waste.

Other Comments by peahix

26. Comment #395639 by JIBJABBER on July 12, 2009 at 5:08 pm

Nobody should be counted as a Catholic until they reach their 18th birthday and sign a form (if it is their wish).
We'll then see how many 'Catholics' there are in Ireland.

The church certainly get a lot of tax money and tax breaks in Ireland. Not to mention the billion plus euro that will be paid out BY THE GOVERNMENT soon for the church's abuses. They also control the vast majority of schools and many of the hospitals.

Other Comments by JIBJABBER

27. Comment #395640 by Goldy on July 12, 2009 at 5:24 pm

I'm not sure my never believing will have any effect on my baptism, I don't think my lack of confirmation will inform the church I have dropped out but I do know I can stop this at the next generation.
Neither of my daughters have been churchified - it will be up to them in their own good time to decide if they want to believe in this god or any other....

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28. Comment #395666 by RightWingAtheist on July 12, 2009 at 7:04 pm

Comment #395622 by j.mills on July 12, 2009 at 3:03 pm
Incidentally, what would one have to do to get excommunicated? Clearly Holocaust-denial is insufficient,

According to Hitchens, one Nazi was booted for marrying a protestant. I can't remember if he specified which one.

Other Comments by RightWingAtheist

29. Comment #395669 by BeyondBelief on July 12, 2009 at 7:14 pm

It's a strange dance. A friend of a friend was leaving the Priesthood in the Catholic church, and he was jumping through mega-hoops to get official blessing.
I asked him the same question I asked myself when I declared myself quit of the religion: "Why in fuck's sake would you want to continue to give the organization power over you? Just walk away and stop playing the game."

Now, to the extent that numbers are used in provisioning governmental services, I suppose getting ones name off the list might be a valuable effort... but so could standing up and fighting against the fact that the Church and State are intertwined at all.

Mom always told me, "Once a Catholic, always a Catholic!" to which I alway replied, "Bollocks. I'm not a Catholic, no matter what their inaccurate records might tell you."

Other Comments by BeyondBelief

30. Comment #395670 by bigJ on July 12, 2009 at 7:14 pm

In Alberta there are two school boards: Public (secular) and Separate (RC). You can direct your school taxes to either one but if you are RC, even if you have directed your taxes to the Public School Board, you must attend a Catholic school. Unfortunately, the two boards are enshrined in the constitution.
Bishop Henry (RC) spoke against allowing the inoculation of RC girls against HPV and, as a result, the RC School Board won't allow the inoculations in their schools. The Public Board allows them. You can guess the results: 70% of public school girls have been inoculated but only 30% of RC parents have gone to the trouble of getting their daughters jabbed.

Other Comments by bigJ

31. Comment #395671 by ChicagoMolly on July 12, 2009 at 7:32 pm

The Most Dangerous Man In Britain Today said:

In Germany, and some other countries (I don't know whether Ireland is one of them) people are automatically TAXED for the benefit of the church into which they were baptised!

That must have made it really easy for the Nazis. They didn't need to kick down everybody's front door when they marched into your town. All they had to do was visit City Hall, browse the tax records, and walk out with a handy list of all the Jews in the city and their home addresses. Another triumph for institutionalized religion.

BTW, I've been accused at times of being a 'fallen-away Catholic.' My stock response is, 'I never fell away from it. I got up on my own two feet and walked away.'

Other Comments by ChicagoMolly

32. Comment #395677 by mmurray on July 12, 2009 at 8:37 pm

Back in 1970 when I worked in Germany for a few years as a "Gastarbeiter", I was initially forced to pay church taxes. One quick letter to the tax authorities took care of that; my successful action encouraged several co workers to do the same.

I didn't realise there were countries that did this. If you gave any Australian a choice between paying a few dollars less tax and burning in hell for all eternity that would be the end of religion down under.

Michael

Other Comments by mmurray

33. Comment #395684 by Roland_F on July 12, 2009 at 9:57 pm

In Germany also Evangelicals (Protestant Lutheran) have to pay taxes, usually 9% of the income tax amount.

I quit being ‘counted in’ in the 80s when I was anyway at the local registration office and was older than 18 to act for myself. I am not sure anymore if there was any fee to be paid for this religious tax status change, even no priest was showing up at my doorstep to re-convert me.

A colleague of mine was not baptized to any specific religion has his parents wanted him to choose for himself when/what he liked when he was old enough. However the Bavarian authorities counted him in to be taxed Evangelical (Bavaria has anyway more than enough Catholics) so despite never been baptized or registered to any faith direction, he had to de-register and pay his exit fee for being counted as belonging to ‘no confession’ .
But when reading the lengthy procedure and high exit hurdles in other countries, there is no wonder that the churches are desperately keeping their flock even if inactive and non churchgoers as excuse for holding on to their unjustified power base of speaking in the name of the majority of the population.

Other Comments by Roland_F

34. Comment #395685 by Goldy on July 12, 2009 at 10:00 pm

Could be worse, mind....
http://www.christianpost.com/article/20080911/iran-parliament-approves-death-penalty-for-apostasy-bill/index.html

Other Comments by Goldy

35. Comment #395686 by Goldy on July 12, 2009 at 10:01 pm

Luckily...
http://www.christiantoday.com/article/iran.scraps.death.penalty.for.apostasy.and.stoning/23683.htm

Other Comments by Goldy

36. Comment #395687 by ev-love on July 12, 2009 at 10:02 pm

"According to Hitchens, one Nazi was booted for marrying a protestant. I can't remember if he specified which one."

Not sure what this has to do with anything here, but it was Goebbels. Screaming race hatred was one thing, marrying a protestant was a step too far!

ev-love

Other Comments by ev-love

37. Comment #395724 by hungarianelephant on July 13, 2009 at 1:21 am

Campaigners point out that all cemeteries in Ireland accept people of any faith because they are managed by local authorities.

What they don't mention is that the Protestants are all buried together in the far corner. Apparently everyone who has ever been part of the RC church is counted as "Catholic". Sectarianism even in death.

I promise you, I am not making this up.

It was slightly more heartening last time I was in a cemetery to see a memorial to the many stillborn babies who were not allowed to be buried in consecrated ground - the official version being that the unbaptised would go to purgatory. At least it's some recognition of the end of an abhorrent practice.

Other Comments by hungarianelephant

38. Comment #395728 by hungarianelephant on July 13, 2009 at 1:50 am

Another approach that has been tried is to have your name deleted from the baptismal records under the Data Protection Act. Unfortunately, you can't, since it's an accurate record of baptism. There was a complaint a few years ago with the snappy title "Case Study 8", which ended up with an offer by the parish priest to note the record that the deconvert no longer wished to be associated with the Catholic church. The Information Commissioner said this was ok.

http://www.dataprotection.ie/docs/Case_Study_8/03_Catholic_Church_Baptismal_Records/107.htm

Under the RC church's own rules, it's incredibly difficult to leave. You pretty much have to be excommunicated.

Other Comments by hungarianelephant

39. Comment #395732 by JIBJABBER on July 13, 2009 at 2:00 am

"Campaigners point out that all cemeteries in Ireland accept people of any faith because they are managed by local authorities."

Of any faith but if you are evolved enough to have no faith...
Then tough.

Remember that Irish guy who had to bury his mother in the North because no graveyard would take her remains.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/0829/1219875241992.html

Other Comments by JIBJABBER

40. Comment #395764 by brainsys on July 13, 2009 at 4:02 am

Comment #395632 by glenister_m

Should I get de-baptised from the CoE?

The usual stats used by the CoE are "who is on the parish electoral role" - which you will not be unless you have bothered the collector in the church where you live (not where you were baptised) and "attendence on a particular Sunday of the year". The vicar does a count on an unannouced day.

These stats show a long and steady decline and are probably a realistic view of the active CoE flock. Hence yesterday's announcement that they are planning to 'downsize' the number of bishops.

By default as the state church you will always have a right to its hatch, match & dispatch facilities whether a believer or not. One of my friends was the Diocesan 'Reverend Death' who was frequently called out to do the funeral stuff of unidentifiable human remains dredged out of the Thames (unidentifiable=religion).

Actually I thought it a nice touch that someone should take time out to care for marking the end of a life even if the words used might not be to all our tastes.

Other Comments by brainsys

41. Comment #395766 by Sean on July 13, 2009 at 4:05 am

You pretty much have to be excommunicated.

It's pretty difficult to get excommunicated, unless you're a doctor performing an abortion on a nine year-old rape victim.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7926694.stm

We really do need to run these bastards out of Ireland.

Other Comments by Sean

42. Comment #395773 by Logicel on July 13, 2009 at 4:41 am

The stinking pile of merde that is the Catholic Church has all the bases covered. An ex-Catholic can't be unbaptized because the indelible mark put on your soul can't be removed! It's permanent, don't you know? Isn't that just special? The Church officials reserve ex-communication for only important people, to make examples out of them, the rest they can't be bothered with. Those ex-communicated folks however remain baptized.

If un-listing yourself from their member rolls will make a difference in how much funding this stinking pile of merde can receive, then do all you can to get unlisted. If not, don't play the game. Ignore these vicious, sick, and fast-becoming-irrelevant maniacs.

When a church official mentions the high numbers of global Catholics to me, I tell him that he is a lying piece of merde because those numbers are meaningless, and he knows it. He can see the empty pews in his stinking church as well as I can.

Other Comments by Logicel

43. Comment #395775 by PERSON on July 13, 2009 at 4:44 am

Is this site the work of atheists or evangelicals? De-converting Catholics is on their agenda too.

UPDATE:
44. Comment #395777 by Tyler Durden on July 13, 2009 at 4:57 am
I mean countmeout.ie

On Nazis and Catholics:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichskonkordat#After_World_War_II

Insane conspiracy remix version available here:
http://www.jewishtribalreview.org/pope.htm

Saner seeming version here http://www.religioustolerance.org/vat_hol12.htm

(Located reference from archive.org:
http://web.archive.org/web/20011021213408/http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGA6U0MO3QC.html)

Couldn't easily find direct information about excommunication of Nazis.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080818021638AAegGGi

The typical answer seems to be "he wasn't a Catholic so didn't need excommunicating". The thing is, he was baptised. Questioning further gets the response "he showed he wasn't a catholic by his actions." But if this is the case, why excommunicate anyone? Apparently because it is only used in cases of false advertising. They didn't claim to be catholics, so that was OK. I guess Sinead O'Connor did? The poster says she thumbed her nose at Catholic teaching. To be clear:

Tearing picture of pope on TV == nose thumbing
Holocaust == not nose thumbing

Or perhaps it was other things she did. Was there an official document? If so, I couldn't find it with a quick Google of site:.va .

The whole thing seems to be a mire of disinformation when it could easily be a simple matter of historical record. Frankly that alone does not reflect well on the Catholic church.

Other Comments by PERSON

44. Comment #395777 by Tyler Durden on July 13, 2009 at 4:57 am

Comment #395775 by PERSON

Is this site the work of atheists or evangelicals?

Clear-thinking rational people.

The countmeout.ie site is not connected to RD.net, and also runs on Facebook and Twitter.

Other Comments by Tyler Durden

45. Comment #395788 by UncleVanya on July 13, 2009 at 5:29 am

On the countmeout.ie website there is a series of FAQ, one of which is "what age do I have to be£". The question has been put to the Diocese of Cork and Ross, and their answer, apparently without irony, is:

"I would think that, because of the implications of such a decision, a person should be 18 before making such a decision".

So, they're happy to baptise people who can't possibly understand the implications, but if you're thinking of leaving... I'm always struck by the fact that when you step outside the areas that are tradationally ruled by religious thinking, religious people are able to see matters with perfect clarity. You're making a decision with life-affecting implications, of course you should be of an age to make a rational decision. Step back to the question of baptism, and the old blind spots take over again.

Other Comments by UncleVanya

46. Comment #395790 by CaptainMandate on July 13, 2009 at 5:41 am

Incidentally, what would one have to do to get excommunicated£ Clearly Holocaust-denial is insufficient,

I believe requesting that a 9 year old rape-victim receive adequate medical attention to ensure she does not die giving birth to twins will do it.

Holocaust denial, just like actually raping a 9 year old is perfectly compatible with catholicism

Other Comments by CaptainMandate

47. Comment #395792 by CaptainMandate on July 13, 2009 at 5:44 am

With regard to the correct age, I was 13 when I confirmed my catholic belief. apparently, I was a man then.

like many men of that age, I was too young and scared to question

Other Comments by CaptainMandate

48. Comment #395794 by sunbeamforjesus on July 13, 2009 at 5:55 am

1. Comment #395671 by ChicagoMolly on July 12, 2009 at 7:32 pm
The Most Dangerous Man In Britain Today said:

In Germany, and some other countries (I don't know whether Ireland is one of them) people are automatically TAXED for the benefit of the church into which they were baptised!

That must have made it really easy for the Nazis. They didn't need to kick down everybody's front door when they marched into your town. All they had to do was visit City Hall, browse the tax records, and walk out with a handy list of all the Jews in the city and their home addresses. Another triumph for institutionalized religion.

Actually the church made it much easier for the nazis than that.They submitted all their records for S.S.inspection shortly after Hitler became chancellor and struck a deal with the catholic church:in exchange for not interfering in their control of the schools,they agreed to support his regime.Submission of church records followed shortly after.
Xtians regularly cite Hitler as an example of atheism gone mad.In reality,the church worked very closely with his regime throughout the war and were instrumental in setting up the escape routes for senior nazis fleeing to South America.
The nazi hunter Simon Wiesenthal gave up asking the church for help very soon after setting up his organisation.

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49. Comment #395800 by Frankus1122 on July 13, 2009 at 6:12 am

Comment #395792 by CaptainMandate

Yes. At 13 I was more excited about choosing my new 'confirmation name' than anything else. At that age you pretty much believe what you are told.

Is Confirmation necessary for salvation?
Confirmation is not absolutely necessary for salvation, but it could be seriously wrong to neglect this sacrament because it deepens baptismal grace and brings an abundant outpouring of the Holy Spirit. Baptism, Confirmation and Holy Eucharist so complement one another that all three are required for full Christian initiation. Confirmation is also important for the growth of the Church.

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50. Comment #395806 by Rich Wiltshir on July 13, 2009 at 6:33 am

"Confirmed" catholics are presumably smaller in number and, so, a less preferred (but more honest) measure of the church's membership, than baptisms.

Of course, I'm not suggesting that an institution that upholds fine standards in all it's dealings and history would seem to misrepresent anything.....

Surely contract law (at least in the UK) can have an influence here as most folk seem to be baptised before they have a legal "capacity to contract."
Though a "minor" may be a member of a mutual institution in the UK, they can be (from memory, though I've had difficulty confirming this by searching google this afternoon) refused payouts at the point of demutualisation...

My point being to highlight a church's dishonourable selectivity of data in order to support an argument.. instead of studying all data in order to FORM one.

For non-UK participants a "mutual" organisation is one which is owned by it's members (though run as a business with elected officers, and profits either reinvested in the business or partially shared as an annual dividend amongst members). If this organisation decides to become a company (i.e. issue shares and trade on the stock markets) or is bought by another institution, "qualifying members" getting a payment determined by a range of criteria. Several Building Societies and Life Insurers went through this transition from the late '80s onward.

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