1. Comment #396504 by RPizzle on July 14, 2009 at 8:32 pm

This really is a travesty. It is little wonder why America lags behind the rest of the world in education. Everything has to be packaged in a God-approved bow.

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2. Comment #396505 by JemyM on July 14, 2009 at 8:35 pm

Texas is a warning to the rest of the world, and should be a schoolbook example of how a radical group, if they are dedicated and crazy enough, can rot a democracy from within.

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3. Comment #396509 by Pilot22A on July 14, 2009 at 8:50 pm

It just seem so hopeless, reading that actual adults are pressing these kinds of education over science and real history.

Utterly hopeless ...

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4. Comment #396510 by Dr Doctor on July 14, 2009 at 8:52 pm

Pop, and there goes history, which we've discussed being the next wingnut target before.

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5. Comment #396511 by mordacious1 on July 14, 2009 at 8:53 pm

"The conservative reviewers say they believe that children must learn that America's founding principles are biblical. For instance, they say the separation of powers set forth in the Constitution stems from a scriptural understanding of man's fall and inherent sinfulness, or 'radical depravity,' which means he can be governed only by an intricate system of checks and balances."

Texas...the rest of the world is laughing at you.

Other Comments by mordacious1

6. Comment #396512 by Cartomancer on July 14, 2009 at 8:58 pm

But the emphasis on Christianity as a driving force is disputed by some historians

That's putting it very mildly indeed! Have any of these christian fundamentalist loons actually read the Federalist Papers? You know, the very discussion documents produced by the framers of the US constitution themselves, to convince the educated public of their motives, aims and ideals?

There's an awful lot of classical political theory in those essays - plenty of Plato, Aristotle, Polybius and Cicero. There's a lot of Renaissance and English Enlightenment philosophy there too. Not much christianity though, indeed virtually none at all. No Augustine or Bede or John of Salisbury, no canon law or papal edicts, no Luther or Zwingli or Calvin.

The idea that christianity is responsible for the founding principles of the American republic is utterly laughable. It's as counterfactual and ignorant of the evidence as creationism. There is no respect for history there in such a suggestion, it's naked political manipulation plain and simple.

Indeed, the idea that America is somehow special and privileged and unique in terms of history is itself a woefuly ahistorical idea, an idea anathema to the very principles of historical study. Nowhere is special, nowhere is privileged, everywhere is unique. History ebbs and flows in just the same way on the shores of the new world as it did in the old: cause and effect remain the same, and the past is knowable from documentary evidence using exactly the same techniques. To say otherwise would be like saying that physics works differently in America, or medicine, or art.

History is peculiarly prone to being skewed and twisted and manipulated by ideological concerns. History is too often written by the victor, cut to shape in procrustean fashion to serve the petty political ends of tyrants and demagogues. This is a travesty - the whole point of studying history is to get as close as it is possible to get to what really happened, to understand how and why things turned out the way they did. Why can't they just teach history as history, giving appropriate emphasis to what deserves emphasis according to the sources? This goes for both sides seeking to skew the curriculum - you don't use history as a vehicle for disingenuous christian propaganda OR for promoting the agenda of ethnic harmony, it's too important for that.

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7. Comment #396515 by SnapperLaFleur on July 14, 2009 at 9:02 pm

Sad, Sad, Sad! We do have a great country in which we can choose what to believe or not to believe. We must remember as a society that our beliefs have to be separate and distinguishable from our educational system though. Beliefs and superstitions are very different than facts and critical thinking. Texas is opening a floodgate and I hope they drown in their own waters. The freedom of religious beliefs in not limited to Christianity, so all faiths should now have a claim to be taught in Texas schools.

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8. Comment #396517 by Steven Mading on July 14, 2009 at 9:04 pm

The worst is that they will probably put this garbage on tests - so students who know better will have to be willing to lie in order to get the question "right" and not adversely affect their grade.

Imagine yourself being a well informed high school student who is well read in the history of the United States.

Imagine being given the worse grade because you know the teacher is lying to you, and you know how to prove it, and you have the integrity not to lie on the test, but the uncaring unthinking test doesn't care. You performed "worse" on the test than your gullible (or perhaps more willing to be dishonest and lie to toe the line) classmates because you told the truth.

And now imagine that your grades affect which colleges you can get into... oh wait--- they DO.

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9. Comment #396522 by Rev.JeffroBodean on July 14, 2009 at 9:16 pm

There is a very simple way to refute everything that Don McLeroy says in this article- read the U.S. Constitution.

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10. Comment #396524 by flistr8 on July 14, 2009 at 9:39 pm

I thought the U.S. government was out of money. This short article appeared in my local newspaper, the Stockton Record on July 12:

Religion has its place


July 12, 2009 6:00 AM
The county Office of Education has received a $1 million federal grant to teach teachers how to teach religion.

This is not a separation of church and state issue, but an attempt to train teachers about how to bring the role of religion into the story of the country.

There is a difference between teaching about religion and promoting a religion. The former is an important part of the American story; the later is a violation of the wall of separation.

It is impossible, for example, to imagine how a student could get a well-rounded view of the American experience without learning about religious persecution, persecution that brought some Europeans to America and persecution that drove some Americans west, such as the Mormons. How could you teach about the civil rights movement without talking about the role of black churches? Or ignore the Second Awakening? Or the role of religion in reforms in temperance, women's rights and abolitionism?

To ignore the role of religion in history would be like trying to teach economics without considering Karl Marx or Milton Friedman or John Maynard Keynes.

The wall between church and state is a necessary guard against the development of a theocracy, examples of which scattered around the world should concern anyone loving freedom.

But religion is part of our history, just as it is a part of the daily lives of millions of Americans.

There's no reason not to integrate it into the teaching of history. (end)

Stockton CA, or as CNN likes to call it, the Foreclosure Capital of the United States is teetering on bankruptcy. San Joaquin County where this money is allegedly going is operating in a depression-like economy. Yet the Feds are kicking in a million bucks to teach "about" religion in the public schools.

Any ideas from this board on how to effectively question this would be appreciated.

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11. Comment #396525 by mordacious1 on July 14, 2009 at 9:54 pm

11. Comment #396524 by flistr8

That's a waste of $1 mil. California history textbooks already deal with religion's role in history. Damn...a good portion of the 4th Grade curriculum deals with the spanish catholics founding California and with the slave centers, uh, I mean missions, etc.

btw, sorry you have to live in Stockton...what a dump...though it used to be nice.

Other Comments by mordacious1

12. Comment #396537 by geru on July 14, 2009 at 11:18 pm

"America is a special place and we need to be sure we communicate that to our children," said Don McLeroy, a leading conservative on the board.

I got a suggestion for the title of the new history book: "America - Fuck Yeah!", because this is pretty much what comes to mind when I read the comment.

These idiots don't seem to understand the difference between a school class and a pep rally. And after these last 8 years, I think Americans have quite enough of nationalism in them to last for a while.

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13. Comment #396546 by Sean on July 15, 2009 at 12:19 am

The curriculum, they say, should clearly present Christianity as an overall force for good -- and a key reason for American exceptionalism, the notion that the country stands above and apart.

Ein volk, ein gott, ein braincell!

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14. Comment #396557 by stephenray on July 15, 2009 at 12:51 am

Good grief, you guys in America are in deep shit. Our education system in the UK has been battered beyond belief by this scheme and that plan, whatever happened to be popular at the moment.

But we don't have this problem - religious fanatics right in the heart of the curriculum-setting system, imbued with the conviction that indoctrination of children is a godly objective.

I guess the two writers of the Newsweek article that wants to be nice to people who claim to be religious and scientific, won't be too worried by the good reverend's claim that he's "in an all-out moral and spiritual civil war for the soul of America", which he can win by twisting the facts for children before they discover the unbelievable extent to which adults are prepared to tell lies...

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15. Comment #396559 by Follow Peter Egan on July 15, 2009 at 12:52 am

Pah! Texas Schmexas. I really don't know what to (constructively) say.

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16. Comment #396573 by Fil on July 15, 2009 at 1:30 am

Oh dear, I come back from the dead (and it's been a damn sight longer than three days...at least on this board) and this is what I find.

Another news item about stupid humans.

Specifically, stupid Texan humans.

Even more specifically, stupid Christian Texan humans with tiny, weeny brains...who somehow have managed to avoid extinction.

Mmm. Therefore "fit" I suppose, but fit for what?

Wait, I have it. Ridicule.

Other Comments by Fil

17. Comment #396578 by sundiver on July 15, 2009 at 1:55 am

We must remember that during the great migration west, many people stopped in Texass. Those who read went on to California....

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18. Comment #396592 by Taliesan on July 15, 2009 at 2:51 am

Funny thing about rightwingers, you see they believe that the courts have a liberal bias, the news has a liberal bias, scientists have a liberal bias, historians have a liberal bias, books have a liberal bias, hollywood has a liberal bias, everything has a liberal bias.

Mainly because the facts have a liberal bias.

Other Comments by Taliesan

19. Comment #396593 by Sievers on July 15, 2009 at 3:02 am

I always enjoy reading posts from Cartomancer.

Don't always absolutely agree, don't always absolutely understand (!) but always feel I've learnt something useful.

Cartomancer, God knows where you get the time for all this, but if you could find a little more...I was reading somewhere about "manifest destiny". What was that all about?



Did I really say 'God knows'? Yes I did. Things like that seem implanted in us....culturally I mean!

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20. Comment #396596 by CaptainMandate on July 15, 2009 at 3:07 am

send you're kids to school in texas and they'll be taught by cowboys

I think the wingnuts have made it clear now that it's not a case of being sceptical of science but a wholesale attempt to turn their schools into centres of indoctrination.

They take their science from the bible, now they want their history to come from it. Well I guess if you want your kids to grow up to kill foreigners it helps to stop them learning how to think for themselves.

what happens when it's time to turn geography into another bible study£

America doesn't get a mention, maybe they'll start to deny the existance of america and finally disapear up their own aresholes

Maths should be easy enough, they could just read from the book of numbers. actually teaching kids to calculate might give them an understanding of statistics. they might notice things like organisms having more offspring than can survive to reproduce.

It's very sad, I grew up in a society where my parents remembered the war and wanted kids to become more intelligent than their forefathers, texans strive to make their kids more stupid.

That may be a long shot

Other Comments by CaptainMandate

21. Comment #396601 by PERSON on July 15, 2009 at 3:55 am

This is not an entirely new phenomenon. See
"Lies My Teacher Told Me"

The fundies are trying to move it up a gear, though.

Other Comments by PERSON

22. Comment #396607 by Cartomancer on July 15, 2009 at 4:19 am

Manifest Destiny? I think my good friend Vicky Pedia can help you out there...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifest_Destiny

Other Comments by Cartomancer

23. Comment #396614 by Sievers on July 15, 2009 at 4:44 am

Thanks! (says he, feeling guily now for being a pain and not bothering to google it himself!)

Very illuminating though, I think. Start with ideas like that, no wonder you end up as "one of the most religious countries on earth."

Other Comments by Sievers

24. Comment #396626 by flying goose on July 15, 2009 at 5:47 am

I am thinking here of the 9th Commandment

You shall not bear false witness

"We're in an all-out moral and spiritual civil war for the soul of America, and the record of American history is right at the heart of it," said Rev. Peter Marshall, a Christian minister and one of the reviewers appointed by the conservative camp.

Now what was the first casualty of war again?

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25. Comment #396628 by Squigit on July 15, 2009 at 5:57 am

I just...I am...speechless...wow...I seriously didn't realize they would go to THIS extent to skew the facts...I thought they'd be a bit more sneaky about it like my teachers were...ya' know, just mentioning in a discussion or whatever that America is founded on Christian principles (it's not, equality is anything BUT a Christian principle, so is freedom of speech and religion and checks and balances...) *sigh*

I was looking at curriculi to homeschool my son (for fear of this very thing, I don't live in Texas but Tx has the largest school system in the US and so all textbook publishers base their content on Texas's standards so all the other kids in the country get lied to, as well) and I didn't find any secular ones...just Christian...it's pathetic

Other Comments by Squigit

26. Comment #396635 by JayLee on July 15, 2009 at 6:27 am

Again, the smugness of this group is breath-taking. The State of Texas hasn't DONE anything on this topic. Some ignorant members of the Board of Education have made a motion which sets off the Texas bashing (proxy of those terrible Southerners). It is impossible to see how these groupthink values of "aren't we all so enlighted" has made any of you more informed. This discussion is just a bunch of back-slappers. "Aren't we all so much more informed than others with whom we disagree?" Try to elevate this discussion a bit. I've decided to stop reading this RDF blog as the predictable posts on this latest topic make this whole intellectual exercise pointless and puerile.

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27. Comment #396644 by debaser71 on July 15, 2009 at 6:47 am

Inserting god and religion in social studies is nothing new.

I will note that when I took social studies in high school it helped me become an atheist. I learned about other cultures and other religions. I also learned about the terrible history of my religion.

And one pet peeve I have is when people blame "the education system". I had a great public school education. My daughters are having a good education. My mom was a public school teacher. The bigger problem is a culture that frowns on intellectualism and the power/influence of the many anti-intellectual forces like churches.

Other Comments by debaser71

28. Comment #396646 by phatbat on July 15, 2009 at 6:53 am

27. Comment #396635 by JayLee

What was that?

So far i think i can tell you disagree with something but can't really work out what.

The only other thing i can think to say is that it seems like your whole post could just be reworded as:

"Everyone here should just bloody well stop agreeing over things and start disagreeing with each other"

If you disagree with something, bloody well articulate your disagreement or your point and enter into reasoned debate, cause right now you just look like a teenager having a temper tantrum.

Other Comments by phatbat

29. Comment #396656 by JonLynnHarvey on July 15, 2009 at 7:17 am

Particularly telling is the call to remove references to Cesar Chavez and other liberal figures. A sign of double-speak.

Currently, history curricula in the US never mention the atheism of Susan Anthony. Yes, Jonathan Edwards, Henry Ward Beecher & other Christians are important historical figures, but what about mentioning the views of SA or Thomas Paine?

Rev. Peter Marshall is clearly far more reactionary than his stepfather who was a well-respected chaplain of the U.S. Senate in WW2, liked by both Republicans and Democrats.

Other Comments by JonLynnHarvey

30. Comment #396670 by HeathenAngel on July 15, 2009 at 8:11 am

These people are bat-shit insane and I hate what they are doing to my country. More and more faith heads and ditto heads are going to be produced because of this. Texas isn't teaching history... or science for that matter. They are, instead indoctrinating children into their particular religion and they are creating an army of brainless drones.

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31. Comment #396671 by Dr Doctor on July 15, 2009 at 8:13 am

I don't think they are bat shit insane, I think they are completely sane, calculating and just want the ascendancy of their own theocratic leanings.

Other Comments by Dr Doctor

32. Comment #396685 by gr8hands on July 15, 2009 at 8:47 am

JayLee, you are in error. The state of Texas has done things on this topic for many years. This is just the latest example.

But the Texas market is huge, so most big publishers aggressively seek approval from the board, in some cases adopting the majority's editing suggestions nearly verbatim.

I think this should scare you, if you care about accuracy in teaching.

You are also in error to suggest that we have "groupthink" in anything other than atheism. But, in point of fact, we have "informed" each other of new things in this very thread -- including the topic itself.

Since it is clear that the posters here have been educated about the historical truth of America's founding fathers (not being christian, not basing much of anything on the bible, etc.), it is clear that they are "more informed" than the Texans in the article. And clearly more than the students will be if they receive the substandard education being suggested.

The fact that the state of Texas has appointed such nutjobs to their positions in the department of education, and is even seriously considering their recommendations, is proof that it has DONE something already.

Now, what is your non-puerile response?

Other Comments by gr8hands

33. Comment #396691 by firstelder_d on July 15, 2009 at 9:03 am

a divide has opened over how central religious theology should be to the teaching of history.

I think the chapter on war, or medieval torture devices would cover this nicely.

Two of them want to remove or de-emphasize references to several historical figures who have become liberal icons, such as César Chávez and Thurgood Marshall.

Ministry of Truth Texas Division at it again. I wonder if Rosa Parks or Susan B Anthony are on that chopping block too.

Other Comments by firstelder_d

34. Comment #396692 by Rich Wiltshir on July 15, 2009 at 9:19 am

History being written by the victor is the best reason for ensuring these nutters don't win this one... Good luck USA

Other Comments by Rich Wiltshir

35. Comment #396693 by Ohnhai on July 15, 2009 at 9:24 am

The US needs to concede and separate off the southern states foe it's own good... Seriously .... Loosing the war of independence would have been a GOOD thing :)

Other Comments by Ohnhai

36. Comment #396695 by chuckyd111 on July 15, 2009 at 9:32 am

I'm from Texas, have a 10 yr old girl in public school, and watch the Texas Board of Education (TEA) information with trepidation. Recently there was some good news:
http://ncseweb.org/news/2009/05/creationist-board-chair-out-texas-004817

Don McElroy, the creationist dentist, who was chairman of the TEA, has had his nomination for another term rejected by the Texas State Senate. So the governor (Rick Perry) has to nominate someone else. The bad news is there are a lot of other creationists on the board to pick from. I will not vote for Perryin the next election, based strongly on the damage he has done to the Texas education system with these nominations.
I hope other Texans do the same, (and also look closely at who they are voting onto the board in their regions).

Other Comments by chuckyd111

37. Comment #396697 by BlueCollar8theist on July 15, 2009 at 9:37 am

I recently battled mt aunt (an elementary school principal in California) over this same subject. She is not exactly a creationist, but she is one of the many people who are too scared to throw off the 'security blankie' of religion and thinks others should be likewise. It started at a nice family gathering, and the war raged from the kitchen to the backyard. As tempers rose, names were called and objects thrown... a typical gathering of my family indeed!

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38. Comment #396698 by MaxD on July 15, 2009 at 9:43 am

"We're in an all-out moral and spiritual civil war for the soul of America, and the record of American history is right at the heart of it," said Rev. Peter Marshall, a Christian minister and one of the reviewers appointed by the conservative camp.

Thus facts and evidence are deeply unimportant. Spiritual civil war (certainly an evidence based claim). This reverend Marshall seems totally qualified to judge matters of historical relevance.

This was bound to happen though, and we biologists have said so for years. They, creationists, are going to come for your subjects as well. Be on your guard.

Other Comments by MaxD

39. Comment #396702 by liberalartist on July 15, 2009 at 9:55 am

...they say the separation of powers set forth in the Constitution stems from a scriptural understanding of man's fall and inherent sinfulness, or "radical depravity," which means he can be governed only by an intricate system of checks and balances.

Just what we want to teach young people, that they are depraved, sinful, dirty people. Christianity is disgusting.

The three reviewers appointed by the moderate and liberal board members are all professors of history or education at Texas universities, including Mr. de la Teja, a former state historian. The reviewers appointed by conservatives include two who run conservative Christian organizations: David Barton, founder of WallBuilders, a group that promotes America's Christian heritage; and Rev. Marshall, who preaches that Watergate, the Vietnam War and Hurricane Katrina were God's judgments on the nation's sexual immorality. The third is Daniel Dreisbach, a professor of public affairs at American University.

So moderates and liberals choose qualified historians while the conservatives choose religous nut-jobs. And the Republican Party can't figure out why their rolls are diminishing...

"America is a special place and we need to be sure we communicate that to our children," said Don McLeroy, a leading conservative on the board. "The foundational principles of our country are very biblical.... That needs to come out in the textbooks."

This is another example of how the christian religion has evolved into something different in the US than what you find in Europe or other places. It infuses nationalism with religion and has created some kind of hybrid fanaticism where people actually believe that this country is "god's country" - literally.

Other Comments by liberalartist

40. Comment #396710 by EnderBlair on July 15, 2009 at 10:12 am

Apparently some of the commenters neglected to read the list of proposed changes that follows the article. They are relatively mild, and as an American history student, I didn't strongly take issue with any of them.

Although as a Democrat, I take issue with this one:

"Replacing references to America's 'democratic' values with 'republican' values. Reviewer David Barton suggests swapping out 'republican.' for 'democratic' in teaching materials. As he explains: 'We don't pledge allegiance to the flag and the democracy for which it stands.'"

The poor, disorganized Dems need all the help they can get, even with those majorities...

The one which would most bring religion to the forefront ("include more study of religious revival movements") was proposed by the American University professor, not the religious righties. These revival movements were actually quite important historically, and they tend to make religion look bad due to the hysterics involved.

While it's true that the Texas educational system is a frightening place, this comment section is getting a little overblown...

Other Comments by EnderBlair

41. Comment #396729 by blitz442 on July 15, 2009 at 11:05 am

I may be nuts, but I think that there may something positive to come out of this latest attempt at forcing religion into the classroom...in that it is so blatant and ridiculous. It may take stupendously obvious examples such as this of how intractable faith is when confronted with disconcerting facts to force some accommodationists to reexamine their arguments.

Or will we start to see some accommodationist historians£

Also, I second Carto's comments on the Federalist papers (hint: the concept of a separation of powers has nothing to do with Original Sin and the Fall of Man) and would recommend to anyone the book Moral Minority: Our Skeptical Founding Fathers by Brooke Alan.

The difference between the actual religious viewpoints of the Founding Fathers (most were deists and one or two may have been atheists) and today's conservative Republicans is staggering. If anything, American history is already taught with a heavy bias toward the Christian viewpoint (how many of you growing up in the US learned in school about the Jefferson Bible).

Other Comments by blitz442

42. Comment #396746 by Howie51 on July 15, 2009 at 12:23 pm

Okay - I apologize if I am repeating information but isn't Texas #36 in the nation in high school graduation rates (68%).

Any why does Texas have 2 cities at the top of the list in the category of worst literacy?

The 10 least literate cities are:

1. El Paso, Texas

2. Corpus Christi, Texas

3. Long Beach, California

4. Detroit, Michigan

5. San Antonio, Texas

6. Santa Ana, California

7. Memphis, Tennessee

8. Jacksonville, Florida

9. Fresno, California

10. Toledo, Ohio

Apparently, the religious right has some explaining to do.

Other Comments by Howie51

43. Comment #396775 by asyouwere on July 15, 2009 at 1:25 pm

Three years of my high school education took place in a boarding institution run by the Benedictines. I cannot recall even one instance of pedagogical reference to scripture or religion being influential to the founding fathers (nor any reference to religion in any of my classes, science or otherwise – go figure that). In fact I recall my history teacher, Fr. Bertram, explaining that most of those men believed in the almighty but were not believers in the bible. He also recounted the quandary of Danbury Baptists, so worrying at the time that the constitution might not protect them from some upstart sect that might vie to become a state-sanctioned religion, that they petitioned the president (T. Jefferson) to protect the freedom of their religion.
Any irony? These were Benedictines teaching us history! These Texas twerps are lightweights by holy comparison, and that Benedictine priest had no compunction to tell it like it was.
Another good thing about Fr. Bertram: If you were his altar boy for his 6 am mass, you got bacon and eggs instead of oatmeal for breakfast.

Other Comments by asyouwere

44. Comment #396800 by Fizzle on July 15, 2009 at 2:25 pm

@ 43: California has three cities. So...

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45. Comment #396804 by Steven Mading on July 15, 2009 at 2:32 pm

re: Comment #396524 by flistr8
The article makes the claim that the momrons fled religious intolerance. This is false. They tried to impose their sect on the communities in which they lived and this was resisted. They left so that they could form a new community where they could have mormonism be the law instead of having to live with people who resisted all attempts to set that situation up.

It's very much like the religious pilgrims that began the colonization. They were fleeing in order TO set up their religion to be in charge of the community, not because they were persecuted.

Other Comments by Steven Mading

46. Comment #396806 by mordacious1 on July 15, 2009 at 2:33 pm

44. Comment #396775 by asyouwere

"...If you were his altar boy for his 6 am mass, you got bacon and eggs...".

What! You never got the sausage?

Other Comments by mordacious1

47. Comment #396813 by Hellene on July 15, 2009 at 2:47 pm

20. Comment #396593 by Sievers

I was reading somewhere about "manifest destiny". What was that all about?

And adding to Carto's reply, the modern continuation of the concept:

http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.htm

Zip down to the bottom of the page to see who signed on.

Other Comments by Hellene

48. Comment #396819 by Howie51 on July 15, 2009 at 2:55 pm

@45

"Res ipsa Loquitur" (The thing speaks for itself)

Other Comments by Howie51

49. Comment #396839 by JonLynnHarvey on July 15, 2009 at 3:37 pm

Up to point the Mormons were victims of intolerance because of their advocacy of polygamy. But it is also true they were theocrats of a rather bad kind (especially after getting to Utah).
Both Texas AND California had three (3) cities in the list of top ten illiterate cities, but two of the Texas towns named (El Paso & San Antinio) and are relatively isolated small-to-medium towns (though of historic significance), but two of the CA towns named are for all practical purposes suburbs of Los Angeles (Santa Ana & Long Beach), so I find the latter more disturbing.

Other Comments by JonLynnHarvey

50. Comment #396858 by Border Collie on July 15, 2009 at 5:22 pm

Carto #396512 ... Hear, hear!!! Perfect.
But, Christian fundamentalist loons read? Cm'on, really ...
Every time I think about teaching here again, I read an article like this and total mental flaccidity sets in ...

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