Wednesday, July 15, 2009 | Reason : Children and Religion | print version

Print | Comments |

Religious schools 'undermine cohesion'

by The Age

Thanks to Linda for the link.

http://www.theage.com.au/national/education/religious-schools-undermine-cohesion-20090712-dheb.html

Farrah Tomazin
July 13, 2009

The rise of faith-based schools in Australia is restricting the ability of some students to relate to people of diverse backgrounds, a university sociologist has warned.

University of Technology Sydney professor Andrew Jakubowicz says that while public schools have traditionally had a crucial role in allowing students of broad backgrounds to "operate quite comfortably in different cultural environments", the proliferation of ethno-religious schools - largely because of federal government funding policies - has had social consequences.

"There is little doubt that the Howard government strategy (continued by the Rudd Government) of directing federal funds to private schools suits the idea of the market and the ideology of choice," says Professor Jakubowicz, co-director of the Cosmopolitan Civil Societies Research Centre, in a discussion paper to be released today.

"However, it may significantly undermine three key struts in the whole edifice of social cohesion and modern citizenship - namely intercultural competence, secularism as a core social value and interactive life-long learning."

In recent years, increased public funding to non-government schools has led to a sharp rise in the number of students attending private schools. Today, almost 40 per cent of students in Australia are enrolled in faith-based schools, including those of the Irish Catholic tradition, Greek Orthodox, Jewish and Islamic schools.

Professor Jakubowicz said he was not "getting stuck into" any particular types of ethno-religious schools. Rather, he said, "the place where the buck stops on this is the national government level, where some of the consequences have not been considered".

"I'm not really concerned about what ethno-religious school it is, but just that the proliferation of ethno-religious schools - whatever the driver - has social consequences. I think the main negatives are the reduction in the capacity of people to communicate and work effectively in a cross-cultural environment," he said.

His paper will be presented to a NSW public school teachers' conference today.

Posted: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 | Permalink

Comments 1 - 50 of 78 | | View Alternate Comment Thread

Reload Comments | Back to Top | Page Numbers

1. Comment #396861 by Fuller on July 15, 2009 at 5:41 pm

Today, almost 40 per cent of students in Australia are enrolled in faith-based schools, including those of the Irish Catholic tradition, Greek Orthodox, Jewish and Islamic schools.

Yikes, thats high. And Rudd won't do anything about it because he made a campaign promise to not change the private school funding that Howard had installed.

Other Comments by Fuller

2. Comment #396864 by Hellene on July 15, 2009 at 6:29 pm

"Instead of encouraging mass immigration into white countries"

I'm sure the Aborigines agree with you.

Fascist.

Other Comments by Hellene

3. Comment #396868 by paceetrate on July 15, 2009 at 7:11 pm

Yeah because white people are TOTALLY native to America and Australia.

Give me a fucking break.

Other Comments by paceetrate

4. Comment #396869 by mordacious1 on July 15, 2009 at 7:17 pm

Someone has been reading "Mein Kampf".

[edit] For this to make sense, you have to read the alt. thread.

Other Comments by mordacious1

5. Comment #396877 by TimB on July 15, 2009 at 8:37 pm

Nice that someone is actually writing an article on this.

Our schools should not be a place where children are segragated by their parents superstitious beliefs.

Bring on a school system where children from all cultural backgrounds can mix and learn together, throw in a bit of philosphy and critical thinking skills and maybe we'll be able to raise a generation of kids who can see through any religious or fascist bollocks that their parent might be influencing them with.

Other Comments by TimB

6. Comment #396878 by SmilingAtheist on July 15, 2009 at 8:38 pm

Comment #396860 by benjamin28

Instead of encouraging mass immigration into white countries and therefor helping to white out white people... it would be a better idea just to improve trade relations between all nations and make us all richer and raise our quality of life in all countries.

Probably not the smartest statement shall we say? A bit bigoted maybe? Also cross cultural (I refuse to use the term 'races') mixing has been around a long long long time so I have no idea what you're going on about. Read your history books.

The issues he's raising here has to do with the large infulx of private schools in Australia, all religious, because of the public funding of them, which I find completely ridiculous by the way. Why is it called a 'private' school when it has 'public' funding? (oh and I know it's only a certain amount but still)

Anyway, the main issue here is that parents are sending their kids to these schools in droves because they want the best education for them. Our public system in some areas is so bad that parents feel they haven't got a choice. It's either send your children to a 'good' school or they suffer later. That's the mentality that has come about. I won't go into all the other issues surrounding the whole education system here as it's a complete mess in my eyes. This is from a person who's only been here for 6 years. I'm a citizen and pay taxes so I feel I have a right to complain!

Other Comments by SmilingAtheist

7. Comment #396879 by DeepFritz on July 15, 2009 at 8:40 pm

There is a large amount of "White Flight" here as well, also the masses of public money that gets poured into the private system here is an absolute disgrace. The outcome is that there is big dollars to be made out of education by private schools who up their fees whilst the poorer migrant classes have severely sub-standard facilities...

Other Comments by DeepFritz

8. Comment #396882 by prolibertas on July 15, 2009 at 8:58 pm

'The rise of faith-based schools in Australia is restricting the ability of some students to relate to people of diverse backgrounds'.

clap... clap... clap... no shit Sherlock.

Other Comments by prolibertas

9. Comment #396897 by Alternative Carpark on July 15, 2009 at 11:05 pm

If Benny was talking purely in terms of culture, then I might agree with him to an extent, but get the impression that his views are coming from somewhere much more sinister.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfGmlSmtSDQ

I once spoke with a Japanese student in Melbourne, over a decade ago. She said "I love Melbourne - it is so different from Japan. I Japan all you ever see is Japanese people! Here, you see all sorts of people from all over the world every day." After having lived in Japan for over 10 years myself now, I am being to see her point.

I suppose it is kind of nice to live in cities which represent something of a microcosm of the world. Where it can go wrong though, is when people, typically from developing countries, bring with them excess cultural baggage. No one is suggesting that they should leave everything behind, on the contrary, culture becomes much richer as new ideas are introduced, but there is a large population of people who make no attempt to assimilate, culturally or linguistically, at all. This leads to resentment, not necessarily always justified, from the general population. It also incurs extra costs for governments, who have to provide multilingual services for people unable or unwilling to learn to speak the language.

On the other hand, if they are paying their taxes, not inconveniencing the rest of the population, and are happy with self-imposed isolation, then who are we to complain?

Other Comments by Alternative Carpark

10. Comment #396898 by helenlibra on July 15, 2009 at 11:06 pm

If I understand the first post from Benjamin 28, then there is to be no movement of population. If you're born in India, you stay in India and so on. That being the case, should the early humans have stayed in Africa?

Other Comments by helenlibra

11. Comment #396901 by Alternative Carpark on July 15, 2009 at 11:56 pm

As for faith-based schools, there are faith-based schools and there are faith-based schools. I spent my last two years of high-school at a Salesian catholic school. The only thing that diferentiated it from your average high-school was a weekly mass, R.E. lessons (or, as I liked to call them, “45-min nap sessions”) and the fact that half the staff were celibate. I do not recall ever being told that the earth was 6000 years old, or that Darwin rogerred monkeys.

But these new types of faith schools: the islamic ones, hitherto unseen outside the muslim world, and creationist ones, hitherto unseen outside America…. Are definitely cause for alarm. Or are they? A cynical part of me welcomes the dumbing down of kids, if only to provide less competition for jobs when my son is seeking employment 20 or so years from now.

Hmm, two incoherent rants in one thread.

Other Comments by Alternative Carpark

12. Comment #396903 by Fil on July 16, 2009 at 12:11 am

Religious schools...meh. By coincidence I StumbledUpon an excerpt from Richard Feynman yesterday. Have a read...it shows just how divorced from society and indeed reality, these schools can make otherwise intelligent people be. Sorry I can't do a direct link. It's short though and, being Feynman, well worth the read.

http://www.collectedthoughts.com/quote.aspx?id=11302

It starts like this:

"While I was at the [Ethics of Equality in Education] conference, I stayed at the Jewish Theological Seminary, where young rabbis- I think they were Orthodox- were studying. Since I have a Jewish background, I knew some of the things they told me about the Talmud, but I had never seen the Talmud. It was very interesting....."

Other Comments by Fil

13. Comment #396904 by ev-love on July 16, 2009 at 12:22 am

That first comment from Benjamin28:

Is that what they call 'trolling'?

I've never been entirely sure exactly what that means...

ev-love

Other Comments by ev-love

14. Comment #396906 by Sean on July 16, 2009 at 12:34 am

Comment #396897 by Alternative Carpark

On the other hand, if they are paying their taxes, not inconveniencing the rest of the population, and are happy with self-imposed isolation, then who are we to complain?

It depends on the nature of this isolation. There has to be encouragement to engage with society as a whole. The problem is that parallel societies develop in which children are raised to live in that society, not the host country.

I wouldn't like any society that forced people to lose their native languages or customs (within reason), but the multi-cultural fantasy world of Tony Blair is well and truly dead. We can't actively continue to support isolation and divisiveness and expect that people will somehow get along. We know that provo and loyalist schools up north worked so well.

I've a somewhat idealised view of immigration in which you ask yourself what you can bring to your host country. I don't subscribe to the idea of moving to a new country and promptly sequestering yourself in a mini version of the place you just left.

Other Comments by Sean

15. Comment #396908 by Quetzalcoatl on July 16, 2009 at 12:51 am

benjamin28-

Keep britain british, europe european, africa african, china chinese, india indian.

Instead of encouraging mass immigration into white countries and therefor helping to white out white people... it would be a better idea just to improve trade relations between all nations and make us all richer and raise our quality of life in all countries.

Stupid do-gooder idiots

What a nasty, unpleasant comment.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

16. Comment #396911 by rod-the-farmer on July 16, 2009 at 12:59 am

"There is no such thing as a faith-based child".....

Other Comments by rod-the-farmer

17. Comment #396912 by Fil on July 16, 2009 at 1:05 am

"That first comment from Benjamin28:

Is that what they call 'trolling'?

I've never been entirely sure exactly what that means...

ev-love"

Well, it could be trolling, but I'm not sure with his post. It seemed to be a sincere point of view, unfortunately. Then again that's how a good troll works. Trolling has two etymologies by the way. One, as in a nasty Troll under a bridge catching people unawares (prompting warnings of "don't feed the troll") and another, linking the term to fishing, where a baited hook is slowly pulled along through the water.

Other Comments by Fil

18. Comment #396914 by mordacious1 on July 16, 2009 at 1:10 am

I had marked Benjies comment as "offensive", but the pop-up said I had already done this, even though I had not. I hate when that happens.

Other Comments by mordacious1

19. Comment #396915 by Fil on July 16, 2009 at 1:19 am

I live in a nearly monocultural town that has only recently seen immigration from black Africans and an influx of foreign students.

The sight of tall African women particularly, especially when dressed in traditional clothing, is a spectacular and very welcome sight on the otherwise all white streets of Hobart.

Vive la différence!

Just so long as we don't encourage madrassas and such isolating, fundamentalist nonsense. As a retired teacher, I have to give three cheers for the public (government) school system here.

Other Comments by Fil

20. Comment #396916 by AllanW on July 16, 2009 at 1:49 am

Re; comment #14 and #19

No, it's not trolling (that would be where someone just posts or links to a site that is on their own agenda and is only tangentially connected to the article subject, like DAR often does). Comment #1 is just offensive.

I read this article days ago when referenced by the National Secular Society website; interesting that the subject, even in Australia, is achieving a slightly higher profile. It's all about raising awareness.

Other Comments by AllanW

21. Comment #396921 by CaptainMandate on July 16, 2009 at 2:14 am

white countries

just copying and pasting to check I really did read this

ew

Other Comments by CaptainMandate

22. Comment #396925 by Steve Page on July 16, 2009 at 2:33 am

Given that benjamin28's most popular thread is "Will white people become myths in the future?" http://richarddawkins.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=66514&sid=b16735fe39bd675252dc2833a54d792c , it more likely that he merely resembles a troll because of his backward inbred racist mindset. It is highly offensive, though, so I encourage everyone to click the button beneath his post.

Other Comments by Steve Page

23. Comment #396926 by Steve Page on July 16, 2009 at 2:35 am

Ah, removing his post makes my comment somewhat redundant. As you were.

Other Comments by Steve Page

24. Comment #396927 by Quetzalcoatl on July 16, 2009 at 2:40 am

benjamin28-

It's really bad forum etiquette to just delete your post and act as if you never posted it. If you regret writing it, say as much!

EDIT- I see it's actually been moved to the alternate thread, my apologies.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

25. Comment #396929 by Follow Peter Egan on July 16, 2009 at 2:42 am

Isn't this precisely the idea of faith schools, though£

This is what those awful bigoted theocrats like Bill Muehlenberg want, to keep the outsiders out.

I'm a survivor of a Catholic education in an English faith school. I knew I didn't like what it stood for, but I still wasn't sure what to make of the first Jew I ever knowingly met, when I was 17 and entered the real world. I'm still embarrassed to remember my shock that he wasn't Christian, even though by then I was an atheist (as was he, in fact). The virus burrows deep in infancy, and it's a hell of a lot worse if the child is put through faith school. I will oppose them to my dying day.

I mean, look at Northern Ireland.

Other Comments by Follow Peter Egan

26. Comment #396930 by mordacious1 on July 16, 2009 at 2:48 am

Quetz

It got moved to alt thread...probably for being offensive.

Other Comments by mordacious1

27. Comment #396932 by Quetzalcoatl on July 16, 2009 at 2:55 am

mordacious1-

Thanks for pointing that out, I've amended my post.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

28. Comment #396934 by Anvil on July 16, 2009 at 3:01 am

A few years ago an old (and sadly dead) friend of mine - her family originally from a small village in Bangladesh but now living in the northern English city of Newcastle upon Tyne - made the traditional journey back to her ancestral home only to discover that the position of women had moved on somewhat.

We discussed this often and at length and came to the conclusion that whilst her original culture maintained a natural (admittedly slow) dynamic, here, in the UK, it had turned in on itself and became static, backward looking, and often invisible.

We have spoken many times about the reasons for this: endemic racism of the host community; excessive multiculturalism; natural cohesion of migrant communities, etc'.

She held out hope, though, recognising that the only place where our many and diverse cultures crossed paths was in the state education system.

She was hardly an Atheist but she held an abhorrence of Single Faith schools as she saw that this most often meant Single Culture, Single Race, and Single Mindedness.

Benjamin28, she loved White Countries. Most notably Norway in February.

Anvil.

Other Comments by Anvil

29. Comment #396937 by mmurray on July 16, 2009 at 3:19 am

Definition from wikipedia on trolling:

In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or collaborative content community with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional or disciplinary response or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.

I think dragging a baited hook on a line is `trawling' ?

I would dispute that faith-based is the right word for all these schools. For the older schools the faith is pretty incidental these days. For the majority of Australians sending their children to a `private' school is not about faith. It is about their, often correct, perception that their children will get less bullying, better discipline, better education, greater chance of getting into university and make the kinds of friends that help them `get on'.

Now I guess I had better go and pack so I can get on the next tall ship back to the UK. Are they going to give me a visa though ?

Michael

Other Comments by mmurray

30. Comment #396938 by mmurray on July 16, 2009 at 3:29 am

The sight of tall African women particularly, especially when dressed in traditional clothing, is a spectacular and very welcome sight on the otherwise all white streets of Hobart.

Surely the traditional clothing is a bit chilly when there is snow on the mountain ?

Michael

Other Comments by mmurray

31. Comment #396939 by flying goose on July 16, 2009 at 3:36 am

Thing is not all faith schools are the same.

Religious and non religious do make sweeping general statements about them. I use the folowing blockquote only because that quoted is part of a much larger essay I am currently writing.

What is my own intuitive response the questions I set. First a reminder of the questions.
Collective Worship in a C.E. V.C. Primary School.
Is it theologically possible or morally desirable?
At a recent clergy gathering I put these questions to colleagues. One responded saying that the questions seem already to assume the answer, no. This is indeed my intuitive response. My tutors responded to my initial essay proposal in the following way.

The context of assembles being in a faith school means that parents have chosen to place their children in a faith school and we wonder if this is important?

My response illustrates my own intuitive response to my question.
Firstly, in my thinking I had not considered the school to be a faith school in the current usage of this term. This is because parents in village do not choose the C of E school because it is a 'faith school', they choose it because it is the school in the village. Neither does the school select on the basis of denomination or any religious affiliation. I was recently told.

We are a community school, we put our arms around everyone.
This from a school that had just achieved an Outstanding from its statutory church inspection.
It is the community school that historically was provided by the church, as a service to the community. Let us call it a church provided community school.

In the past as a mere curate I was involved with a school which did select on the basis of denomination. To my shame I did not think to challange it. I would now, and very strongly too.

Other Comments by flying goose

32. Comment #396942 by hungarianelephant on July 16, 2009 at 3:42 am

Flimsy article.

No distinction attempted between the ethno- aspect and the religious aspect.

Tentative conclusion presented by headline as fact.

No evidence.

Honestly, are we really going to accept this rubbish just because we don't like the idea of faith schools?

Other Comments by hungarianelephant

33. Comment #396945 by Fil on July 16, 2009 at 4:02 am

"Trolling is a method of fishing where one or more fishing lines, baited with lures or bait fish, are drawn through the water. ..."

From Wikipedia mmurray...

As regards African women here in traditional dress in winter. It was a comment made in admiration, that's all.

Obviously the immigrants from the terror that is Somalia or wherever have a hard time adapting to the climate and culture of Tasmania, but I truly admire their spirit (and in warmer months, their choice of dress).

As regards private schools. The topic at hand is private religious schools. I have had the misfortune to teach in a number of "elite" private schools in OZ (and indeed I attended a prominent "public" school as a child in England, although I am Aussie born). If anything, the quality of bullying could be more insidious and harmful in those establishments (and I was personally bullied quite badly as a child, so I really hate it). It was sneaky, money and class based and very difficult to deal with. As for the students' nature, there was a surprisingly high proportion of not very smart, opinionated, racist arseholes (from their often right wing parents) who I had great difficulty in affording a professional demeanour to as a teacher.

Our public system may have many faults in Australia, made worse by the likes of Howard and his lack of intelligence as a leader, but I have to say I am far prouder to have worked in it than any snotty nosed elite private school I or my wife has had anything to do with.

Old boys networks are rife here in Tasmania and are a direct result of the much higher tradition of richer folks sending their kids to private schools (and increasingly less well off people who are abandoning the public system because of the trend away from our egalitarian roots). Old boy networks here have proved to be corrupt, and not for the public good, as well as denying talented but poorly connected graduates from earning their fair and just place in public and business affairs. This trend has become a tidal swell of good intentions by parents that is creating class divisions that this country was not based upon...and we as a nation are poorer for it.

Edited, because my original post was too reactive, proving that I am an old grump who is not having a very good year health wise and am truly sick of it (irony alert). :-(

Oh what the hell, the cricket's on, so go the baggy greens! (sorry, mmurray, my sincere apologies).

Other Comments by Fil

34. Comment #396952 by donttellhimpike on July 16, 2009 at 4:45 am

mmurray

I concur with Fil on that one. I go trolling in my canoe for pike. Trawling - I think means a net is involved (I'd never be able to tow one of those with my electric outboard! :-)

Other Comments by donttellhimpike

35. Comment #396953 by mmurray on July 16, 2009 at 4:49 am

"Trolling is a method of fishing where one or more fishing lines, baited with lures or bait fish, are drawn through the water. ..."

From Wikipedia mmurray..

Thanks I didn't know that.

As regards African women here in traditional dress in winter. You maybe have some stupid comment to make about Tasmania? Or shall we discuss the wonders that are Adelaide's weather? No mention yet of two heads, I see.

Sorry Fil that was meant to be a jest. My wife is Tasmanian and I met her while doing a PhD there a long time ago. I still have vivid memories of walking to the University with the snow on Mt Wellington. My current computer desktop is a picture of Dove Lake with Cradle Mountain in the background which I took while visiting a couple of years ago. I am not sure why you are reading some wholesale attack on Tasmania out of my remark. You will also get no defence of Adelaide's climate from me.

It was a comment made in admiration. Thank you for deflating it.

So was mine -- admiration for Mt Wellington with a sprinkle of snow and memories of the chill air. Not sure why you feel my comment deflated yours.

Obviously the immigrants from the terror that is Somalia or wherever have a hard time adapting to the climate and culture of Tasmania, but I truly admire their spirit (and in warmer months, their choice of dress).

Ditto those in Adelaide although maybe our intolerable summer is easier for them.

This trend has become a tidal swell of good intentions by parents that is creating class divisions that this country was not based upon...and we as a nation are poorer for it.

Agreed. I am no supporter of the sector although I have to admit I sent my children to a `non-denominational' co-ed private school in Adelaide. My own experience was that the bullying was in the over-large outer suburban high school in Melbourne I went to not in the Marist Brother's College I also spent some time in. Of course that was in part because I never got on the wrong end of one of the nuttier Brother's canes. But the Marist Brother's College was not an elite school so the snobbery was minimal. The elite in Melbourne went to Xavier to get taught by the Jesuits.

Michael

Other Comments by mmurray

36. Comment #396954 by mmurray on July 16, 2009 at 4:51 am

mmurray

I concur with Fil on that one. I go trolling in my canoe for pike. Trawling - I think means a net is involved (I'd never be able to tow one of those with my electric outboard! :-)

OK thanks. My deep lack of knowledge of anything about fishing is being revealed to the world. I could never cope with the way the innards of the worm came out when you poked in the hook. That and I don't like to eat fish!

Michael

Other Comments by mmurray

37. Comment #396958 by mmurray on July 16, 2009 at 5:05 am

Edited, because my original post was too reactive, proving that I am an old grump who is not having a very good year health wise and am truly sick of it (irony alert). :-(

Oh what the hell, the cricket's on, so go the baggy greens! (sorry, mmurray, my sincere apologies).

No problem. Humour by text is always tricky -- I should have been less obscure :-). I hope the health improves. Growing old is a pain (no pun intended).

Michael

Other Comments by mmurray

38. Comment #396960 by mmurray on July 16, 2009 at 5:08 am

Old boys networks are rife here in Tasmania

One thing that always worried me about our private schools is that so many are single sex and so really do lead to old boys networks. You can get a type of male who can't really work easily with women and likes to break the ice at meetings with locker room humour. Not all of them but too many.

Michael

Other Comments by mmurray

39. Comment #396968 by Fil on July 16, 2009 at 5:26 am

Man, I feel like the bad bully now. :-(

Thank you for being so gracious in the face of my bad manners, mmurray.

We have some things in common it seems though. :-)

My parents were "Orange and Green". So while in England for a few years with them, I was sent to a C of E public school and beaten stupid by the prefects (happily I was too young to be buggered, er, depending on one's proclivities of course ;-). Mind you, I will allow that the quality of education was superb. Ancient Greek, Latin, as well as French in primary school, for goodness sake! Largely wasted on moi perhaps, although it did instil a love of language and ancient Rome to this day. Pity I can't find any ancient Romans to natter to though...

Anyways, regarding faith schools and us. Pity me. Mother being Catholic, I had to endure the tender mercies of the unChristian Brothers back in Oz. Ignorant, brutal, sexually "confused" and frustrated, they were a masochist's delight.

Unfortunately I'm not a masochist.

So a big, "Up Yours!!" to the Christian Brothers from me...(funny how I was bashed and bullied so much in in a "Christian" school).

Ah me, and so back to the cricket...

Other Comments by Fil

40. Comment #396973 by AllanW on July 16, 2009 at 5:39 am

Comment #396968 by Fil on July 16, 2009 at 5:26 am

Ah me, and so back to the cricket...

I suggest you avert your eyes after the morning session at Lord's ...

Other Comments by AllanW

41. Comment #396975 by BillySands on July 16, 2009 at 5:41 am

I think this falls into the "no shit Sherlock" category

Other Comments by BillySands

42. Comment #396978 by Ignorant Amos on July 16, 2009 at 5:46 am

9. Comment #396897 by Alternative Carpark

I have to agree with you here.

And there lies the problem. A big issue was made recently on the media in Belfast on a number of East European imigrants being forced from their homes by racial bigots. But what the news didn't point out is that the families being forced out are not paying there taxes and are inconveniencing the community. Begging gives nothing back and takes advantage of everyones good nature. I had reason to be sitting opposite one such beggar on the train some time ago. She was sitting there bold as brass counting out her days takings and from where I sat I could see she had in excess of £300, not a bad days wage and what was worse, this person didn't even live in the town she was taking money from, we were on the train out. This is what rubs "locals" up the wrong way. I even heard the husband of a Romanian doctor on the radio saying how these "immigrants" are not representative and are an embarassment to the honest hardworkers who are here to start a new life.....still gives the bigots ammunition though.

Other Comments by Ignorant Amos

43. Comment #396980 by mmurray on July 16, 2009 at 5:47 am

I guess that makes me Green and Orange. My father was Catholic and my mother Anglican. I think the condition of them being allowed to be married in the Catholic Church (not in the main Church but in a side bit I think) was that the children were raised Catholic. The mixed marriage was kind of a good thing because although they were both believers they were less enamoured of the nuttier rules and regulations. Hard to believe in all those non-Catholics burning for all eternity in hell if it includes your spouse.

Ah the Christian Brothers. They seem to have a richly deserved reputation for being the most sadistic in Australia. My father went to one I think.

So all offspring of mixed marriages join together now:

`Oh it is the biggest mix-up that you have ever .....'

Regards - Michael

Other Comments by mmurray

44. Comment #396984 by Buchner on July 16, 2009 at 5:50 am

43. Comment #396978 by Ignorant Amos on July 16, 2009 at 5:46 am

"And there lies the problem. A big issue was made recently on the media in Belfast on a number of East European imigrants being forced from their homes by racial bigots.

"But what the news didn't point out is that the families being forced out are not paying their taxes and are inconveniencing the community."

You may have a point...

What is your evidence for this, Ignorant Amos ?

Other Comments by Buchner

45. Comment #397027 by GregfromCanada on July 16, 2009 at 7:33 am

"Instead of encouraging mass immigration into white countries and therefor helping to white out white people... it would be a better idea just to improve trade relations between all nations and make us all richer and raise our quality of life in all countries."

To bad the messenger was a racist, because the second half of this statement is pretty correct.

With the world population still rising we in the West can't keep allowing immigration at historical rates, it's unsustainable. It has nothing to do with race, or religion, or ethnicity, its just basic math. To keep the standard of living we have we cannot have the population density of the East and Africa.

The West, regardless of whether or not we deserved it, has figured out that small families lead to better lives. The rest of the world needs to follow suit to realize the benefits of smaller richer families. It sucks for them right now, but the alternative is for us all of us to be poor.

Immigration was the foundation of Western places like the Canada, the US, south America and Australia, and it is still a valuable resource of new ideas and inspiring personal stories. The days of mass immigrations, however, must end and education and trade must bring the "gospel" of smaller families and better lives to the rest of the world for the whole world to prosper.

The racist guy's motivation and a lot of his message was wrong, but the last bit was dead on.

~Greg

Other Comments by GregfromCanada

46. Comment #397033 by ev-love on July 16, 2009 at 7:42 am

GregfromCanada

I'm trying to understand...there are entities called "white countries" where white people are being "whited out", is that your position?

What is your evidence for this?

ev-love

Other Comments by ev-love

47. Comment #397035 by GregfromCanada on July 16, 2009 at 7:45 am

Buy the way, although this guys message is offensive it is useful. Not because we have to agree but because it forms a basis for discussion and an opportunity to refute his bigoted ideas. He did not flame anyone and was nut "rude" in the sense that he used offensive or inflammatory language, only most of his ideas are morally bankrupt.

It was not, in my opinion, necessary to flag his comments as offensive.

~Greg

Other Comments by GregfromCanada

48. Comment #397054 by Ignorant Amos on July 16, 2009 at 8:27 am

45. Comment #396984 by Buchner

The evidence I base my comment on, is the huge increase in Eastern European beggars on the streets at around the same time as the arrival of the same. The scams being commited by said folk, the amount of pilfering of clothes from washing lines, the increase in numbers at the dole office claimimg benefits and as I said in my post, witnessing the lady on the train counting her days takings, when I've seen her outside the High Street newsagents on a number of occassions with her hand out.

By all means, come here and add to the culture, bring a service, and a lifestyle that enriches your new home, but don't drop in and think that because the natives might be a bit naive and that pickings will be easy and then get upset when found out and chased.

Seeing anyone living a lifestyle above their means and furnishing that lifestyle by unscrupulous methods while they are claiming benefits is bad enough. But the bigots really get the bit between their teeth when the people not paying their way, are the foreign nationalists they so despise. Hence the rise of the BNP in the UK. As loathesome as they are, people are rallying to their call because of the lack of action by the government leaving the populous frustrated.

I recently gave a pound coin to a young foreigner selling the "Big Issue", a magazine printed to help the homeless, I didn't take a magazine, it was just a donation, but I was pursued for a further two pounds, the alleged cost of the mag, and no amount of explaining that I didn't want a magazine was going to suffice.

I tend to keep my hand in my pocket these days.

Other Comments by Ignorant Amos

49. Comment #397062 by Buchner on July 16, 2009 at 8:37 am

I don't think you quite understand, Ignorant Amos .

You write "By all means, come here and add to the culture, bring a service, and a lifestyle that enriches your new home, but don't drop in and think that because the natives might be a bit naive and that pickings will be easy and then get upset when found out and chased. "

I didn't ask for your personal prjudices, impressions and anecdotes, but for the evidence.

You said people were being forced out from their homes , not by bigots but because they were "not paying there taxes and inconveniencing the community".

What is your objective, stastical evidence for this statement?

Other Comments by Buchner

50. Comment #397073 by Ignorant Amos on July 16, 2009 at 8:54 am

50. Comment #397062 by Buchner

I don't think you picked me up correctly....what I said was:-

"A big issue was made recently on the media in Belfast on a number of East European imigrants being forced from their homes by racial bigots."

Precisely for the reasons I stated.

I didn't ask for your personal prjudices, impressions and anecdotes, but for the evidence.

I guess living here and seeing it for myself doesn't count then?

They are not my "prejudices","impressions" or "anecdotes" and I do realise that it is a small minority, but it is what it is and nothing you or I say will change it.

Other Comments by Ignorant Amos

Reload Comments | Back to Top

More Comments: 1 2 | Next | Last