1. Comment #397160 by mannylee on July 16, 2009 at 12:47 pm

Depressing if unsurprising

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2. Comment #397166 by Jack Rawlinson on July 16, 2009 at 12:58 pm

Savages, behaving like savages.

In other news: Andrew Brown, Chris Mooney, Sheril Kirshenbaum and Terry Eagleton continue to insist that we "New Atheists" are terribly strident and unhelpful people.

Other Comments by Jack Rawlinson

3. Comment #397170 by gimlibengloin on July 16, 2009 at 1:09 pm

I never thought I'd say this but Congratulations to RD.net for highlighting some of the persecution of Christians that goes on around the world the above case in Iran being merely the tip of the iceberg. I suspect that Prof Dawkin's motives were not as pure as I'd like but well done nevertheless.

GBG

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4. Comment #397172 by clodhopper on July 16, 2009 at 1:12 pm

I would like to see the Universal Declaration of Human Rights made binding on member states of the UN. Non compliant states should then be kicked out and isolated and made to feel the full force of the worlds fury at their savage stupidity.

Other Comments by clodhopper

5. Comment #397173 by Gregg Townsend on July 16, 2009 at 1:13 pm

3. Comment #397170 by gimlibengloin

I never thought I'd say this but Congratulations to RD.net for highlighting some of the persecution of Christians that goes on around the world the above case in Iran being merely the tip of the iceberg. I suspect that Prof Dawkin's motives wern't as pure as I'd like but well done nevertheless.

I certainly can't speak for Richard, but what higher motive could there be than wanting all creatures (humans too) to be free and happy.

I find your implication, that Richard (or any of us) would ever delight in the suffering of someone just because of they are religious, disgusting.

I hope I've misread you.

Other Comments by Gregg Townsend

6. Comment #397174 by clodhopper on July 16, 2009 at 1:14 pm

Comment #397170 by gimlibengloin

And your motives are purer how exactly?

Other Comments by clodhopper

7. Comment #397176 by the great teapot on July 16, 2009 at 1:18 pm

It is in their constitution written by their founding fathers. Difficult to argue against really.

Other Comments by the great teapot

8. Comment #397182 by Stafford Gordon on July 16, 2009 at 1:29 pm

Perhaps changing from one religion to another constitutes a syndrome, in which there exists a wish and need on the part of the individual to escape religion altogether, but the fear instilled by religion at an early age renders that individual incapable of doing so; ergo, the next best, albeit useless option is to move from the furnace into the incinerator.

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9. Comment #397193 by alaskansee on July 16, 2009 at 1:50 pm

Comment #397173 by Gregg Townsend in response to the gimp.......
"I certainly can't speak for Richard, but what higher motive could there be than wanting all creatures (humans too) to be free and happy."

It is amazing that these guys have stories about this behaviour in their big book and they still don't get it. They're surprised when other behave this way yet seldom commit such acts them selves. As has been said before selective reading of the big book helps it fit all, except for those pesky muslim, jews, jeh........

Other Comments by alaskansee

10. Comment #397196 by Max of Earlobes on July 16, 2009 at 1:55 pm

The most surprising thing about this is that they thought that there was more evidence for one religion than for another, despite having not been presented with any at all.

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11. Comment #397200 by the great teapot on July 16, 2009 at 1:58 pm

Perhaps there were fewer laws reducing female inheritance and rights in the new testament than the Koran.
If I was a woman I know which I would prefer.

Other Comments by the great teapot

12. Comment #397202 by PaulJ on July 16, 2009 at 2:01 pm

Comment #397176 by the great teapot

It is in their constitution written by their founding fathers. Difficult to argue against really.

Difficult yes, but necessary. Nobody chooses to be born into any particular culture.

Other Comments by PaulJ

13. Comment #397203 by clodhopper on July 16, 2009 at 2:02 pm

Comment #397182 by Stafford Gordon

I think the religious mindset goes shopping for the best fit, while failing to see that non of the products fit: because god/s are made in mans image, not the other way round. Still, there is always another shop opening up somewhere. Religion is a fashion industry.

Other Comments by clodhopper

14. Comment #397204 by the great teapot on July 16, 2009 at 2:03 pm

Absolutely Paul.
I am just taking the piss out of Americans who worship their constitution and founding fathers.

Other Comments by the great teapot

15. Comment #397210 by Janus on July 16, 2009 at 2:10 pm

Well, modern Christianity is definitely an improvement over modern Islam. And, of course, no one deserves to be jailed because of one's beliefs, no matter how ridiculous and insane those beliefs may be.

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16. Comment #397218 by clodhopper on July 16, 2009 at 2:28 pm

Comment #397210 by Janus

And, of course, no one deserves to be jailed because of one's beliefs, no matter how ridiculous and insane those beliefs may be.

Well, not quite.

If you believe you have the right to kill me and act on it, I would be fairly sanguine about you spending some leisure time behind bars.

Other Comments by clodhopper

17. Comment #397219 by stevencarrwork on July 16, 2009 at 2:29 pm

As Denis Alexander wrote in the Telegraph today 'So much of what we heard during the week, particularly in the arena of human anthropology, converges on religious values that enshrine cooperativity, the importance of family and societal relationships, and group cohesion.'

Religion produces all these important values, and if a few women have to be killed in the name of religion, this hardly means that atheists are entitled to criticise religion.

Other Comments by stevencarrwork

18. Comment #397227 by clodhopper on July 16, 2009 at 2:40 pm

I think the bible teaches that all manner of killing is a splendid way of fostering group cohesion, specially women and babies. It's always open season in the koran of course.

Other Comments by clodhopper

19. Comment #397228 by Squigit on July 16, 2009 at 2:40 pm

17. Comment #397219 by stevencarrwork
"Religion produces all these important values, and if a few women have to be killed in the name of religion, this hardly means that atheists are entitled to criticise religion."

I hope you're not serious.

Other Comments by Squigit

20. Comment #397230 by DamnDirtyApe on July 16, 2009 at 2:44 pm

17. Comment #397219 by stevencarrwork on July 16, 2009 at 2:29 pm

Why thankyou, Steven Carrwork, for illustrating precisely why the majority of people who visit this site have come to the conclusion that religion is a LOAD OF BATSHIT FUCKING BOLLOCKS.

... Caps can be used for dramatic effect at times. I was thinking of a Lewis Black Sketch.

Other Comments by DamnDirtyApe

21. Comment #397232 by the great teapot on July 16, 2009 at 2:50 pm

wow,
It never occured to me stevencarrwork wasn't joking.
Can you actually utter those words and not be?

Other Comments by the great teapot

22. Comment #397236 by Quetzalcoatl on July 16, 2009 at 2:56 pm

Going by his previous posting record, I believe that Stevencarrwork is being sarcastic. He's not religious.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

23. Comment #397237 by the great teapot on July 16, 2009 at 2:58 pm

Phew.
I needn't lock the front door tonight after all.

Other Comments by the great teapot

24. Comment #397254 by Koreman on July 16, 2009 at 3:44 pm

Pure Islam is peace. Just like pure christianity, pure communism, pure anarchism and pure potterism.

Other Comments by Koreman

25. Comment #397260 by black wolf on July 16, 2009 at 4:30 pm

Well, given that within this week I've read from true Christian believers that hundreds of thousands of dead from a natural disaster aren't a bad thing and that it's only God's command keeping them from 'beating the living tar' out of atheists for nothing more than mocking words, it's not at all surprising that stevencarrwork's comment wasn't taken as unambiguous albeit very dry humour by everyone.

Other Comments by black wolf

26. Comment #397265 by Fil on July 16, 2009 at 5:10 pm

Time for the Vatican Special Forces to drop in there and bust 'em out.

It would be like the Entebbe raid all over again, except no Jews...just batshit Ninja Nuns with sharpened crucifixes.

What?

Other Comments by Fil

27. Comment #397267 by NewEnglandBob on July 16, 2009 at 5:32 pm

Either serious or sarcastic I still marked comment 17. #397219 by stevencarrwork as offensive.

Other Comments by NewEnglandBob

28. Comment #397268 by Fil on July 16, 2009 at 5:45 pm

I'd mark #17 as wtf? I don't follow what he's about at all.

I will say this however (and I know it's not connected to his argument). Sometimes, filtering realities such as the plight of those two poor women in Iran (and the Iranian nutcase regime in general) via an anthropological or sociological objectivity is the only way to save oneself from despair.

Pity I can't do it.

And yes, even though I've signed a thousand such petitions over the years only to see them achieve bugger all, I signed this one too.

Other Comments by Fil

29. Comment #397271 by TIKI AL on July 16, 2009 at 6:11 pm

Just because republicans say: "Vote democrat and die!", I refuse to stoop to their level and say "Become a Christian and go to jail!

Other Comments by TIKI AL

30. Comment #397272 by Bacchus on July 16, 2009 at 6:16 pm

Comment #397219 by stevencarrwork

I find it hard to believe that only black wolf and myself understand the point stevencarrwork is making.
Ranked his comment as Good to counter negative rankings

Other Comments by Bacchus

31. Comment #397274 by Alternative Carpark on July 16, 2009 at 6:29 pm

Temporally speaking, going from islam to christianity is a step back.

But it is not a crime.

Other Comments by Alternative Carpark

32. Comment #397314 by zengardener on July 17, 2009 at 12:08 am

the great teapot

It is in their constitution written by their founding fathers. Difficult to argue against really

I am just taking the piss out of Americans who worship their constitution and founding fathers.

What's your point? The Iranians don't seem to get a real vote, and I doubt that they can amend their constitution. Give my regards to the queen. :P

Other Comments by zengardener

33. Comment #397319 by CaptainMandate on July 17, 2009 at 1:01 am

I suspect that Prof Dawkin's motives were not as pure as I'd like but well done nevertheless.

I do find the concept of "purity" utterly repugnant.

I suspect Prof Dawkins motives were entirely driven by a desire for human equality.

Purity you can keep

Other Comments by CaptainMandate

34. Comment #397322 by aminhashemi on July 17, 2009 at 1:35 am

I am Iranian. live in tehran, you know they are doing such thing to us for 30 years...:(

Other Comments by aminhashemi

35. Comment #397332 by Peacebeuponme on July 17, 2009 at 2:05 am

Quetz

I think Damn Dirty Ape understood that, but maybe I'm wrong

New England Bob

It was a sarcastic comment, but making an important point - showing the outrageousness of religious apologists. Why mark it as offensive?

Other Comments by Peacebeuponme

36. Comment #397348 by coreypaul on July 17, 2009 at 3:18 am

Too bad more Christians don’t support equal protections and rights for people of no faith and people of other faiths, I mean come on; "converting to another religion is considered blasphemy and punishable"...that’s what the bible basically says, so until Christians stop acting like hypocrites, I say, less of anyone who is religious, the better off the human race will be!

Other Comments by coreypaul

37. Comment #397361 by Sean on July 17, 2009 at 4:13 am

Comment #397254 by Koreman on July 16, 2009 at 3:44 pm

Pure Islam is peace. Just like pure christianity, pure communism, pure anarchism and pure potterism

And the worrying thing here is that many people actually believe that junk, although I don't hear many people talking about pure communism/anarchism since I left college.

The story is all the more relevant due to Ireland's little flirtation with the prohibition of blasphemy. It's another demonstration of what happens when law and religion are intertwined. Anyway, I'm sure that Muslim groups will shortly condemn the practice of punishing apostates… Yeah, can't be long now…

Other Comments by Sean

38. Comment #397364 by BJPentecost on July 17, 2009 at 4:23 am

Havin' a really hard time dredging up sympathy for some reason. They traded one absurdity for another in direct defiance to known laws of their country.

Other Comments by BJPentecost

39. Comment #397365 by ev-love on July 17, 2009 at 4:23 am

Comment #397170 by gimlibengloin

“I never thought I'd say this but Congratulations to RD.net for highlighting some of the persecution of Christians that goes on around the world the above case in Iran being merely the tip of the iceberg. I suspect that Prof Dawkin's motives were not as pure as I'd like but well done nevertheless.”

I’ve just seen this and I feel sick to my stomach. I must add my name to the list of those who find your implication that Richard (or any of us) would ever delight in the suffering of someone just because they are religious disgusting.

Like Gregg Townsend (Comment #397173 ) I hope we’ve misread you. I invite you to explain yourself or retract your statement

I know of no-one who posts on this site who feels anything but abhorrence for religious persecution :

The killing of Christians by Muslims in Indonesia and Iraq, for instance.

The killing of Muslims by Christians (as in Kosovo in the 1990s or in Greece and Bulgaria during the Balkan wars)

The killing of Buddhist clergy by the Pol Pot regime in Kampuchea

The killing of Buddhists by Christians in S. Korea in the 1990s

The killing of Shi'a Muslims by Sunni Muslim militias (and vice versa)

And on and on.


Do you really think we approve of all this, or that when we denounce it our motives are “not as pure as you would like”?


ev-love

Other Comments by ev-love

40. Comment #397380 by ev-love on July 17, 2009 at 5:26 am

34. Comment #397322 by aminhashemi on July 17, 2009 at 1:35 am

I am Iranian. live in tehran, you know they are doing such thing to us for 30 years...:(

aminhashemi,
Sorry, but could you spell out: who are "they", and who are "us"?

ev-love

Other Comments by ev-love

41. Comment #397386 by ev-love on July 17, 2009 at 5:47 am

38. Comment #397364 by BJPentecost on July 17, 2009 at 4:23 am

"Havin' a really hard time dredging up sympathy for some reason. They traded one absurdity for another in direct defiance to known laws of their country."

Seems to me we should strain every sinew to produce societies where people are free to "trade one absurdity for another" if they want to. Exercising a basic freedom 'in direct defiance of known laws' seems to me a pretty courageous thing to do.


That's three posts in a row I think. Time to shut up!

ev-love

Other Comments by ev-love

42. Comment #397393 by chemical scum on July 17, 2009 at 6:22 am

I miss a good source.. What's Doa website?

Other Comments by chemical scum

43. Comment #397418 by BJPentecost on July 17, 2009 at 7:02 am

Comment #397386 by ev-love

I agree with you but I guess the ole heart strings just ain't workin' today.

Other Comments by BJPentecost

44. Comment #397459 by rod-the-farmer on July 17, 2009 at 8:12 am

Perhaps we should ban the construction of any and all mosques in western democracies. Shut down any and all that are already built. Anyone in a western country who converts to islam will be put to death. Use this case as an example.

Only partly kidding. I am holding my breath, waiting for muslims in western countries, or even muslims in nominally muslim countries, to stand up and speak out against this...........holding ......holding .....whew. Sorry. Could not last any longer.

Other Comments by rod-the-farmer

45. Comment #397541 by Lucas on July 17, 2009 at 12:21 pm

aminhashimi - So how much longer do you plan on accepting that? I know, I know, not a lot you can do really, as they have all the guns...

I can see a lot of good coming out of this crackdown in Iran. A lot of innocent people tend to be sent to prison in the years preceding a real revolution.

Other Comments by Lucas

46. Comment #397546 by NumberCruncher on July 17, 2009 at 12:40 pm

#397172 clodhopper: "I would like to see the Universal Declaration of Human Rights made binding on member states of the UN. Non compliant states should then be kicked out and isolated and made to feel the full force of the worlds fury at their savage stupidity."

Keep up! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cairo_Declaration_on_Human_Rights_in_Islam
The UN Muslim block thought of it first. Remember that the Islamic concept of human rights is different than that conceived in countries founded on non-Islamic principles.

#397203 clodhopper: "I think the religious mindset goes shopping for the best fit, while failing to see that non of the products fit: because god/s are made in mans image, not the other way round. Still, there is always another shop opening up somewhere. Religion is a fashion industry."

You are assuming they have a choice. They haven't. http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/012-apostasy.htm

#397348 coreypaul: "Too bad more Christians don’t support equal protections and rights for people of no faith and people of other faiths, I mean come on; "converting to another religion is considered blasphemy and punishable"...that’s what the bible basically says..."

Ah, logical fallacies agogo. Let's make a list:

(1) tu quoque - fake moral equivalence that makes Islam OK because Christianity is just as bad.

(2) false continuum - failing to spot the difference between two extremes: equating a traditional Christian reaction to blasphemy ("We're upset. Please don't.") with the Islamic reaction ("Apostates must die. Kill the blasphemers.")

(3) ad ignorantum - yes, both Testaments include violence, sometimes inspired religiously. How many recommend violence as a means of progressing Christianity today? Read up before commenting. Of course, religious courts all over the UK routinely burn atheists alive, stone adulterers, sanction additional taxes on people from other religions, burn their churches, refuse to allow them to hold governmental posts... You mean, there aren't? Are you sure? But you just said that we Christians don't support equal protections and rights... Robust evidence, please.

(4) ad hominem. That's right: criticise Christianity. In an article about Islam persecuting Christians, criticise Christianity because it is an article written in favour of a person's choice to become a Christian. Well, at least it's safer for you than criticising Islam.

#397322 aminhashemi: "I am Iranian. live in tehran, you know they are doing such thing to us for 30 years...:("

No. Islam has been doing it to you and every country invaded by Islamic armies and more or less every other country in the world (for the latest toll, try the bottom of this page http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/ ) since the 9th Century.

Other Comments by NumberCruncher

47. Comment #397551 by jamiso on July 17, 2009 at 12:55 pm

44. Comment #397459 by rod-the-farmer

that is a bit of the problem aint it.
I'm sure if say the USA made converting to islam illegal, people at the UNs heads would explode... but when it comes to a country like Iran or Suadi Arabia the reaction is "meh".

That is the importance of Promoting a Universal concept of Human Rights.

Other Comments by jamiso

48. Comment #397556 by ev-love on July 17, 2009 at 1:05 pm

gimlibengloin …CONGRATULATIONS!

If your motive for posting here was to make people angry, you’ve succeeded – in my case at least. In fact, you’ve made me hopping mad.

You were invited to clarify your post about what you called ‘the persecution of Christians that goes on around the world’, and that sneering remark you made:

“I suspect that Prof Dawkins’ motives were not as pure as I'd like but well done nevertheless.”


It comes as no great surprise to me that you haven’t responded.


I can’t help contrasting your sanctimonious hit-and-run tactics with the way a Christian like ‘flying goose’ can engage with us on this site, putting his case honestly and straightforwardly, and, I suspect, winning the personal respect of many of us, however much we may disagree with him.


gimlibengloin, I think your effort today was beneath contempt.


ev-love

Other Comments by ev-love

49. Comment #397588 by DamnDirtyApe on July 17, 2009 at 2:19 pm

Guys, stop overanalysing and focus on the article. Its some seriously bad stuff.

I have several Iranian friends. All of them hate the state of affairs, and can't stand the theocracy. You don't need me to tell you their government is nuts.

I'm intrigued by the 'against gender apartheid' site... I can think of a few places where this is still priority #1.

Other Comments by DamnDirtyApe

50. Comment #397615 by hmj on July 17, 2009 at 4:56 pm

"According to Islamic rules, a Muslim converting to another religion is considered blasphemy and punishable."

How does above fit into the Irish blasphemy law?

Other Comments by hmj