The Only One in Step2. Comment #14419 by jburdoo on December 22, 2006 at 11:28 am
A lot of people seem to think Dr. Dawkins is too stern and curmudgeonly; in some cases, I think, he doesn't go far enough. Now, I grant that explaining the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics was not the entire point of this essay, but that explanation, while good (as a professional librarian, I love the analogy), could be made clearer, perhaps, in a dedicated letter rather than a single paragraph. Most importantly, the point might have been made that ultimately, the entire library has lost more resources than it retained by improving the place -- so, say, to put ten books in order, the librarian had to move a hundred. Or the sun has lost vastly more energy than we received on Earth, and continues to run down.3. Comment #14427 by seals on December 22, 2006 at 11:50 am
4. Comment #14428 by OUMedStudent on December 22, 2006 at 11:58 am
Here is an excerpt from an email Andy wrote to a member of the forum:5. Comment #14429 by Joadist on December 22, 2006 at 11:58 am
The ideas of Burgess and McIntosh are not radically new. They have been accepted scientific views for quite some time.6. Comment #14431 by Jonathan Dore on December 22, 2006 at 12:03 pm
As a graduate of Bristol University, I "collapse in deepest humiliation" at the thought of my alma mater's association with Professor Stuart Burgess. I'm only a music graduate, and I can understand why the 2nd Law is not a barrier to evolution. You would have thought a professor of mechanical engineering could do a teensy bit better -- or indeed, 460,000 times better.7. Comment #14437 by Steve Harris on December 22, 2006 at 12:44 pm
I'm also a recent graduate from Bristol, but I'm happy to say the ideas of Professor Burgess don't seem to hold much sway with the student population. He gave a lecture in the chemistry department late last year about his views. There wasn't really anything new in them, as other commenters note, apart from a few loopy ideas about beauty proving God's existence (cue slide of his daughter's smiling face); mostly they were just standard creationist arguments, delivered in the standard creationist manner (rapid fire, without explaining technical terms or giving any references), and they did not go down well with the apparently intelligent, science literate audience.8. Comment #14438 by Seti on December 22, 2006 at 12:45 pm
9. Comment #14441 by Jack Rawlinson on December 22, 2006 at 1:03 pm
10. Comment #14446 by quork on December 22, 2006 at 1:28 pm
There was also one from a certain Professor Steve Fuller of Warwick University which displayed a quite jaw-dropping ignorance of elementary fallacies.11. Comment #14448 by Riley on December 22, 2006 at 1:32 pm
12. Comment #14450 by Mel Z on December 22, 2006 at 1:37 pm
13. Comment #14451 by Vadjong on December 22, 2006 at 1:42 pm
14. Comment #14455 by quork on December 22, 2006 at 2:02 pm
You can find some of McIntosh's thoughts on thermodynamics and evolution expressed at the web site Answers in Genesis:15. Comment #14457 by denoir on December 22, 2006 at 2:18 pm
16. Comment #14460 by DerrickB on December 22, 2006 at 2:26 pm
Burgess is an old hand at this. Here is his book:17. Comment #14465 by seals on December 22, 2006 at 2:56 pm
18. Comment #14468 by Nikki on December 22, 2006 at 3:03 pm
4. Comment #14428 by OUMedStudent on December 22, 2006 at 11:58 am19. Comment #14472 by michael fasher on December 22, 2006 at 3:14 pm
An exelent discusion of the second law in relation to evolution is in Paul Davies book The Origin of Life.20. Comment #14474 by Haymoon on December 22, 2006 at 3:17 pm
21. Comment #14475 by toomanytribbles on December 22, 2006 at 3:24 pm
22. Comment #14477 by Nikki on December 22, 2006 at 3:39 pm
14. Comment #14455 by quork on December 22, 2006 at 2:02 pm23. Comment #14478 by Nikki on December 22, 2006 at 3:46 pm
You have to wonder if Professor Andrew McIntosh can even say the word 'photosynthesis'. Still, the YECs proclaim any supporter who has a science degree, reguardless of his/her field of achievement.24. Comment #14479 by Roy_H on December 22, 2006 at 3:52 pm
25. Comment #14481 by Sancus on December 22, 2006 at 4:08 pm
Thanks for the link, Nikki. When reading McIntosh's views, he seemed to me like a person terribly frightened at his own lack of knowledge about the universe. While an average scientist may humble herself before the difficulty of the task, and an excellent one may boldly introduce new salient ideas, McIntosh quickly prostrates himself to the safety of a literary work.26. Comment #14483 by 2Black on December 22, 2006 at 4:14 pm
Be interesting to know what these gentlemen say when given the counter argument that the earth isn't a closed system by virtue of the sun. I imagine they would have heard this argument once or twice?27. Comment #14485 by Martha on December 22, 2006 at 4:24 pm
28. Comment #14486 by robert s on December 22, 2006 at 4:31 pm
His job is to promote the understanding of science among the public. Challenging a professor who is promoting pseudo-science seems to be required by that.29. Comment #14487 by Zaphod on December 22, 2006 at 4:31 pm
30. Comment #14488 by Baz Y on December 22, 2006 at 4:38 pm
Thanks to Joadist for the quote 'God's days are not the same length as earthly days'.31. Comment #14489 by Martha on December 22, 2006 at 4:42 pm
32. Comment #14491 by Homo economicus on December 22, 2006 at 5:02 pm
33. Comment #14500 by Dean Morrison on December 22, 2006 at 6:48 pm
"The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics began at the Fall."
"This law says that the entropy ("disorder") of the universe increases over time, and some have thought that this was the result of the Curse. However, disorder isn't always harmful. An obvious example is digestion, breaking down large complex food molecules into their simple building blocks. Another is friction, which turns ordered mechanical energy into disordered heat—otherwise Adam and Eve would have slipped as they walked with God in Eden! "
34. Comment #14501 by Nikki on December 22, 2006 at 6:53 pm
26. Comment #14483 by 2Black on December 22, 2006 at 4:14 pm35. Comment #14507 by Tremayne on December 22, 2006 at 9:52 pm
"Other supposed "pro-avis" creatures (half reptile/half bird) have never been found. The evidence is overwhelming that birds have always been birds, and is entirely consistent with their being created right at the beginning on Day 5, just as the Bible says." ~ Andrew McIntoshPerhaps Dr. McIntosh is unaware (or refuses to candidly acknowledge) that several Archaeopteryx fossils have been unearthed within the last two centuries. The Archaeopteryx is considered by a substantial number of evolutionary biologists as one of any number of predicted transitional forms that provides compelling evidence in favor of evolution. www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CC/CC214_1.html
36. Comment #14511 by Roy_H on December 22, 2006 at 10:35 pm
37. Comment #14518 by Richard Dawkins on December 23, 2006 at 1:07 am
38. Comment #14519 by Aussie on December 23, 2006 at 1:27 am
Show me just one informed atheist who believes the Earth is less than 6000 years old and I will be impressed.39. Comment #14520 by Aussie on December 23, 2006 at 1:40 am
That was a simple, concise and lucid explanation of the Second Law.40. Comment #14521 by fatcitymax on December 23, 2006 at 1:51 am
As an American I'm greatly relieved to find that the USA doesn't have exclusive claim to the type of pseudo-scientists exemplified by McIntosh and Burgess. Leeds and Bristol universities must be the UK equivalents of Liberty University in the US.41. Comment #14522 by Roy_H on December 23, 2006 at 1:56 am
42. Comment #14523 by RascoHeldall on December 23, 2006 at 2:12 am
"Well The second law of thermodynamics thing is way above my head I am afraid,but as for the Earth only being 6000 years old? what about COMMON SENSE. A tiny little example, the white cliffs of Dover. Please do not try and convince me that those tiny little coccoliths built the great thicknesses of chalk in a few thousand years!"43. Comment #14526 by Joadist on December 23, 2006 at 2:25 am
I try to find time to laugh at Creationists who claim that the earth is 6000 years old.44. Comment #14527 by Aussie on December 23, 2006 at 2:30 am
Joadist,45. Comment #14528 by Roger Stanyard on December 23, 2006 at 2:42 am
46. Comment #14531 by canicula on December 23, 2006 at 3:12 am
47. Comment #14533 by perfectelise on December 23, 2006 at 3:36 am
Comment #14428 by OUMedStudent: "Not only does he [McIntosh] think Evolution by Natural Selection violates the Second Law, but he believes that without invoking divine machinery, the simple concept of a chemical bond would violate it as well."48. Comment #14536 by oeditor on December 23, 2006 at 3:53 am
Joadist wrote49. Comment #14542 by Nikki on December 23, 2006 at 4:34 am
45. Comment #14528 by Roger Stanyard50. Comment #14543 by ridelo on December 23, 2006 at 4:34 am
1. Comment #14415 by plastictowel on December 22, 2006 at 10:56 am
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