Thursday, October 29, 2009 | Reason : In the News | print version

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New T ads reach out to Hub's nonbelievers

by David Abel - boston.com

http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2009/10/28/in_subway_ads_atheist_group_reaches_out_to_hubs_faithless/
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Beside ads beckoning believers to explore Islam, attend services at the Boston Chinese Evangelical Church, or learn about the healing powers of Christian Science, the walls of the city’s subway cars will make room this month for another creed: nonbelief.

A group called the Boston Area Coalition of Reason has spent $11,000 to buy ads on more than 200 subway cars on the Red Line and Green Line to raise awareness about people who believe that God is a myth. Surveys suggest that they account for an increasing number of Americans.

The ads, which were unveiled yesterday and will be up for the next month, are set in a background of blue sky with puffy clouds. The bold-lettered message reads: “Good without God? Millions of Americans Are.’’

“The point of this ‘Good without God’ campaign is to reach out to the millions of humanists, atheists, and agnostics living in the United States,’’ said Fred Edwords, head of the United Coalition of Reason, which is sponsoring the campaign in Boston, as well as similar efforts in New York, New Jersey, and Chicago. “Nontheists sometimes don’t realize there’s a community out there for them, because they’re inundated with religious messages at every turn. So we hope this will serve as a beacon and let them know they aren’t alone."
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Posted: Thursday, October 29, 2009 | Permalink

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1. Comment #427813 by Friend of Icelos on October 29, 2009 at 3:17 am

I'm not really sure that nonbelief qualifies as a "creed."

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2. Comment #427820 by andrew.trapp on October 29, 2009 at 3:41 am

I think nonbelief can be considered a creed. A creed is defined not just by what you believe, but why. Some may argue that we can't (or shouldn't) be defined by what we don't believe, but lack of belief in deities by atheists is only half the story. The other half is the reasoning that led us to that conclusion. It is that line of thought that can be called a creed.

As an analogy, science isn't just about facts. It's about the logical and empirical processes that lead to the discovery of those facts.

Also, nontheism is still very much a minority belief, so in that sense it also makes sense to define it as a separate creed. (Separate from the majority belief of theism.) It is kinda silly to call yourself an aleprechaunist just because you don't believe in leprechauns; nearly everyone lacks belief in them. A leprechaunist, one who does believe in them, would be few enough in number that it would make sense defining yourself as one if that is what you were. So if anything, considering nonbelief as a creed is a useful and necessary way of pointing out that you do not believe as the majority does.

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3. Comment #427821 by mordacious1 on October 29, 2009 at 3:42 am

The ads are up on the red and green lines. That covers the major universities in Boston. This may be preaching to the choir (I know, there are a lot of university students who believe in god). I think the silver line would be a good one to advertise on, it goes to Logan Airport. This would cover travelers and terrorists.

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4. Comment #427825 by Friend of Icelos on October 29, 2009 at 4:03 am

You make a good point andrew.trapp, but I suppose it depends on exactly how we define "creed." I took the easy road and checked answers.com

1. A formal statement of religious belief; a confession of faith.

That doesn't sound quite right.

2. A system of belief, principles, or opinions

That sounds a little better, but I'm still uncertain that nonbelief alone should be considered a creed, since not all non-theists arrive at their nonbelief for the same reasons, nor do they necessarily trust scientific or critical thinking. A creed may more properly refer to a well-defined system of positive beliefs rather than just a notable lack thereof.

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5. Comment #427830 by Alternative Carpark on October 29, 2009 at 4:24 am

A part of me doesn't like these sorts of messages.

I like to think that such things are a given, and that their vocalization somehow diminishes that.

Perhaps if I lived in America I would understand the need for ads like these, but, unassailed as I am relidiocy...

Other Comments by Alternative Carpark

6. Comment #427831 by Ned Flanders on October 29, 2009 at 4:28 am

I think calling it a creed is a bit much, and smears us with the kind of divisiveness that religion is so fond. The divide exists because the religious believe, not because we don't. If they didn't exist neither would atheism, in the same way atoothfairyism doesn't.

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7. Comment #427833 by Halfpixel on October 29, 2009 at 4:37 am

Can we get over the author's use of "creed" and move on to actually discuss the article? I'm pretty sure it was simply used because it fits with the phrasing of the sentence. Besides, at least he didn't say another RELIGION.

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8. Comment #427836 by Ned Flanders on October 29, 2009 at 4:55 am

" “Their message seems uncharitable and hopeless, but I do think it’s possible to be good without God,’’ he said. “Yet I think they’re preaching to the choir in Boston. They’ll find a lot of people who agree with them.’’ "

The pettiness of these religious idiots is just pathetic.

Uncharitable? HOW? You can;t agree that it's possible to be good without god and then accuse the message of being unfair. Please.

And, because a lot of people might agree, that is a case against its usefulness? WTF!?

This is what you get after years of telling yourself fairy tales are true.

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9. Comment #427837 by FUNTASTIK on October 29, 2009 at 5:00 am

I don't like this ad. It is too apologetic! As if Good with God was the default position. How about: "You can be good even if you believe in god! " That would be accurate but not well understood. The best one was probably "Don't believe in God? you are not alone!"

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10. Comment #427846 by zengardener on October 29, 2009 at 5:34 am

Do we really know that 40,000,000 Americans are good?

One could say that they have no record of violence, if one presented the data, but good?

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11. Comment #427854 by GenevieveLee on October 29, 2009 at 6:05 am

The Blue line goes to Logan, past the Aquarium, Suffolk downs, Maverick, etc, toward the N.Shore ending at Wonderland/Revere beach, not the Silver line.

The comments made by this pastor are the most accommodating I've ever read in regards to the putting of these ads on buses in various other cities. (most of the other city's signs elicited massive complaints and campaigns for removal)

Some people here seem to always be looking for a fight. The pastor was not hostile toward the ad, but rather indifferent (the best we could hope for from a man of god, I should say); He said it IS possible to be good without god, mentioned opposition would be hypocrisy, and freedom of speech, etc... He is obviously aware and accepting of the large numbers of atheists in the area. Uncharitable does not mean unfair.

The quotes in this article and the fact not one complaint has made its way to the MBTA reflects the general ideals and progression of the peoples of Boston. The Pastor's quote about the sign 'preaching to the choir' is quite true. New England has the largest percentage of atheists in the US, it's not new news.

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12. Comment #427855 by pnelnik on October 29, 2009 at 6:06 am

The wittiest responce I've seen is 'Good without God is O'

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13. Comment #427860 by debaser71 on October 29, 2009 at 6:46 am

I went to school at Boston Universtity.

The Green Line is BU and BC but also Kenmore Square which is Fenway Park, where the Redsox play. I also think Copley Place is on the Green Line. There are many fancy hotels in that area.

And the poster is right that the Blue Line goes to Logan...at least that's how I would get home to New York. But there might be a Silver Line that I do not know about.

And iirc the Red Line is where Harvard and MIT are.

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14. Comment #427868 by mordacious1 on October 29, 2009 at 7:31 am

Alright, I haven't been to Boston for awhile and haven't lived there since 1980, but here's a map of the MBTA:

http://www.mbta.com/schedules_and_maps/subway/

The blue line, as I recall, doesn't go to the terminals like the silver does (unless they haven't opened that part yet). The only reason I know about the silver line is I saw a science show, which talked about how the super-buses are guided by 4 satelites which turn lights green as they approach and control their journey across town. This line cost $1.5 billion and is mostly underground.

More than you need to know about the MBTA? Yes, I know.:)

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15. Comment #427871 by SaintStephen on October 29, 2009 at 7:48 am

The slogan is good but what's up with the cloud-filled blue sky background? Call me a reformed Catholic or paranoid, take your pick, but some hen-pecked true believers may be intimidated by the design of these posters; their delusion being that God, the man peering at them from behind the blue sky curtain, is "testing" them with a direct atheist challenge to their faith. The posters look a little eerie and almost "religious" to me in terms of their style, in other words.

I'd have to spend considerable time thinking up a good alternative design, even if the slogan remained constant. My first efforts would probably target nature scenes for backgrounds, since I believe that the love of nature and evolution is closely entwined with the atheist message, as Richard Dawkins demonstrates every day he lives on this planet.

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16. Comment #427873 by Jos Gibbons on October 29, 2009 at 7:56 am

Abel (DA) had to call nonbelief a creed, didn't he? That's like the single most obviously oxymoronic way to say it! (Since some people here are discussing this point, I'll add my 2 cents: the only thing that defines nonbelief, i.e. how all nonbelievers are the same, is *not* believing certain things. Sure, various alternative beliefs correlate with that, but that is relevant to neitehr the word nonbelief nor to this campaign.)

who believe that God is a myth.

No, people who *do not believe in one*. Believing there isn't one is an extra condition. But then, who'd expect better from someone who misstates the slogan printed on a poster of which he has a photo in his article? Now to be fair I'll pick on someone else, Schmelzer (DS). (What's with thick Daves in this piece?)

Their message seems uncharitable and hopeless, but I do think it's possible to be good without God

Agreeing with DS could be uncharitable and hopeless - after all, we all know of sad truths - but how could *this* be uncharitable (it doesn't say anything bad about anyone) or hopeless (it doesn't say anything bad about anything)?I think they're preaching to the choirI understand it's OK for people to criticize others for the same thing they themselves do, since labelling someone a hypocrite as if that matters is a tu quoque fallacy, but how does he with a straight face use specifically the language of what he does? "Speaking to the like-minded"-it *would* be "preaching to the choir", wouldn't it? What's the problem with doing that anyway. The *point* of this poster is to cheer up and embolden non-believers, and DS clearly didn't get that.

He said he can't complain about the MBTA allowing the ads

Did DA ask DS that? If so, the fact he even thought he might get a different answer is a sad fact about Americans' views on those who are different.

There will be conservatives upset about this, because they don't want nonbelievers in the public space

Sadly, Prothero, I agree. Thanks also for understanding the poster's point, which DS didn't.

Other Comments by Jos Gibbons

17. Comment #427879 by SaintStephen on October 29, 2009 at 8:17 am

16. Comment #427873 by Jos Gibbons on October 29, 2009 at 7:56 am

Hmmm... not bad. 5 blockquotes, and only 1 of them is defective. 4/5 = 80% = B

Not sure if it would be good enough for Feynman, Schwinger, Guth, or Gell-Mann though.

(FYI... A blank blockquote-box phenotype is evidence that its DNA code, or HTML, contains suppressive binding proteins inhibitive to the normal transcription and enzymatic processes. Either that or one of your blockquote tags is missing a slash or something...)

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18. Comment #427893 by Kiwi on October 29, 2009 at 10:05 am

80% only a B ? Wow you are a tough marker...

Now I fully get the distinction of atheism as not a creed etc like non stampcollecting is not a hobby yes but actually the creed is "You can be good without god" that is what these posters are about so let's realise that we are at the start of a long educative process of both public and journalists.

As far as the blue sky background goes, I was reminded of the "Imagine" line "Above us only sky". Also it will set up an association with the real sky, so that when folk see the real thing, they will recall the tag line and think about the whole proposition, which may be a novel one for many.

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19. Comment #427899 by steveroot on October 29, 2009 at 10:33 am

10. Comment #427846 by zengardener on October 29, 2009 at 5:34 am
Do we really know that 40,000,000 Americans are good?

Depends how they're cooked.
Steve

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20. Comment #427909 by Jos Gibbons on October 29, 2009 at 11:11 am

Comment #427879 by SaintStephen

There are only 4 blockquotes. There isn't a defective one. I don't really see the benefit to them anyway. I'm fed up with trying to please you. Worry about your own post formats.

Other Comments by Jos Gibbons

21. Comment #427916 by nickthelight on October 29, 2009 at 11:40 am

Dear all

I have a ticket (£15) avaliable for the following event:

Atheism is the new fundamentalism
With Prof Dawkins and A C Grayling

The Event will be held on the 29th November at Wellington College, Crowthorne, Berkshire, UK.

http://www.intelligencesquared.com/events.php?event=EVT0204

I can no longer attend. If you'd like the ticket (it's actually an email) please contact me

nickthelight@gmail.com

thanks

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22. Comment #427923 by bluebird on October 29, 2009 at 12:22 pm

depends how they're cooked

"'To Serve Man'...........It's a cookbook!!"

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23. Comment #427924 by Sally Luxmoore on October 29, 2009 at 12:23 pm

My two favourite quotes:
From the article -

“I think this is more of a coming-out party for atheists,"

And from the comments - (This one may be the stupidest I've heard yet!)

By the way, if the Bible is not true, why are you wearing clothes?

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24. Comment #427926 by Nunbeliever on October 29, 2009 at 12:35 pm

How do they know that ALL the 40 million non-believers are actually good? Perhaps only 35 million are good and 5 million are really, really NAUGHTY!! ;-)

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25. Comment #427931 by Poncita on October 29, 2009 at 12:44 pm

You don't get clouds on a silver line. You get silver linings on clouds.

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26. Comment #427937 by DamnDirtyApe on October 29, 2009 at 1:08 pm

New T Ad...

Yes, Mr T was the first thing that came to my head.

Quit yo jibber jabber.

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27. Comment #427938 by LaurieB on October 29, 2009 at 1:11 pm

debaser71 and mordacious1

It's true that the red line services MIT and Harvard but it also services the Roxbury/Boston community and that's where a huge new Mosque has been built. It looks like the Ruggles stop on the red line is the closest to that mosque.
This should be interesting.

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28. Comment #427940 by mlgatheist on October 29, 2009 at 1:32 pm

Creed - According to m-w.com

1 : a brief authoritative formula of religious belief
2 : a set of fundamental beliefs; also : a guiding principle

I do not see nonbeleif being a creed. Would not believing in little green men beconsidered a creed£ Is not believing in ghouls, goblins, trolls, etc. some type of a creed£

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29. Comment #427945 by mero on October 29, 2009 at 2:04 pm

Um, I've seen these ads on the T (red line) for a lot longer than just one day ago - how could they have been unveiled yesterday?

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30. Comment #427947 by debaser71 on October 29, 2009 at 2:06 pm

Good info on the Mosque. Also maybe the Silver Line is something new they added in "the big dig" which is after I had already left Boston.

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31. Comment #427949 by LaurieB on October 29, 2009 at 2:23 pm

Yes, the silver line is a new addition to our old, groaning, overstuffed metro system.

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32. Comment #427951 by Tyler Durden on October 29, 2009 at 2:27 pm

Beside ads beckoning believers to explore Islam, attend services at the Boston Chinese Evangelical Church, or learn about the healing powers of Christian Science...

Healing powers you say? Science you say? Would you like to put these "powers" to the test? Didn't think so.

Nothing like a good oxymoron to get you laughing out loud :)

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33. Comment #427952 by Southpaw on October 29, 2009 at 2:28 pm

If they really wanted lots of Bostonians to see this, surely they should print it on the side of Dunkin' Donuts coffee cups? :D

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34. Comment #427970 by mitch_486 on October 29, 2009 at 3:23 pm

I think that in the beginning, once one decides there is no sufficient evidence for a god, that there is no creed for non-belief. However, once one makes his or her position on the topic clear, it becomes important to communicate with others who feel the same way. This in turn creates the sort of atmosphere where everyone more or less conforms to a set of guidelines; rationality, logic and skepticism.

It's only because we're faced with such close-minded stupidity that we were forced to come "out" and have a sort of creed in the first place.

Point is: No, as non-believers we don't have much in common at all (no two humans really do) but, as a group targeted by ridiculous myth following gnats, we have a combined voice that does result in a creed.

EDIT:
10. Comment #427846 by zengardener on October 29, 2009 at 5:34 am

Do we really know that 40,000,000 Americans are good?

One could say that they have no record of violence, if one presented the data, but good?

IMO, good is a relative term here. The only reason for using it in this context is to equate "good" to the christian sense of good. Afterall, it may be the only way they understand it.

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35. Comment #427993 by SaintStephen on October 29, 2009 at 3:59 pm

Testing 1 2 3

Testing 4 5 6

A blank or extra blockquote box, such as the one demonstrated above, appears to be caused by having an extra < /blockquote > tag (end blockquote) that isn't paired up with its corresponding < blockquote > tag (start blockquote). The blank box above is produced by the following HTML:

< blockquote >Testing 1 2 3< /blockquote >

< /blockquote >

< blockquote >Testing 4 5 6< /blockquote >

in which the second line contains an unpaired tag. (If you can't see this due to your browser I apologize for harrassing you unduly.)

Other Comments by SaintStephen

36. Comment #428001 by gcdavis on October 29, 2009 at 4:33 pm

This is an effective message because so many people who are saturated in religion genuinely think that it is the source of their morality, nonsense of course but it may plant a seed in their confused little heads that being good is possible without the aid of god. Did anyone see the Morgan Spurlock doc in the 30 Days series where an atheist mom went to stay with an evangelical family? It was a revelation to them that this woman was just like them, caring, responsible, honest etc. At the end of the prog her husband and kids arrived too, an exemplary family in every respect. The evangelicals were gobsmacked.

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37. Comment #428003 by BeyondBelief on October 29, 2009 at 4:41 pm

The sign of a dead thread: When it goes all HTML chatty.

Curious, how did you get those blockquote HTML snippets to show up as text? By leaving a blank space before and after the word "blockquote" ??

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38. Comment #428010 by Jos Gibbons on October 29, 2009 at 5:01 pm

Comment #427993 by SaintStephen

Well, I can't, so there.

Comment #428003 by BeyondBelief

For the beginning, put blockquote in between <> without spaces. For the end, use /blockquote instead. Personally I don't get the point.

Other Comments by Jos Gibbons

39. Comment #428018 by TIKI AL on October 29, 2009 at 5:32 pm

I'm not impressed with the blue sky background either, too churchy.

How about chocolate statues of Richard and Hitch?

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40. Comment #428023 by SaintStephen on October 29, 2009 at 5:48 pm

37. Comment #428003 by BeyondBelief on October 29, 2009 at 4:41 pm

Indeed, Sir.

Other Comments by SaintStephen

41. Comment #428029 by SaintStephen on October 29, 2009 at 6:00 pm

TIKI AL: #39

How about chocolate statues of Richard and Hitch?

One of them should be peanut butter, methinks. I'll let you choose which one.

Other Comments by SaintStephen

42. Comment #428035 by TIKI AL on October 29, 2009 at 6:22 pm

SS @ 41. Yes, that would be more inclusive. I'm gonna go with Hitch in peanut butter.

As much as I like his views on religion, Iraq puts him in the peanut gallery.

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43. Comment #428036 by HughCaldwell on October 29, 2009 at 6:24 pm

It plans ads for another 10 cities, which will coincide with the publication of a book titled “Good Without God,’’ by Greg Epstein, a member of the coalition’s board who is the humanist chaplain at Harvard.

A humanist chaplain! How cool is that! Anyone deny that Harvard is the world's top university?

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44. Comment #428042 by TIKI AL on October 29, 2009 at 6:49 pm

HC @ 43. "Anyone deny that Harvard is the world's top university?"
...didn't Bush go there?

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45. Comment #428043 by Sally Luxmoore on October 29, 2009 at 6:52 pm

Comment #428042 by TIKI AL

LOL !

Could there ever be a better put-down?

Still, apparently he graduated in the top 85% of his class... !
(I heard that that was on his website - not even a hint of self-awareness there)

Other Comments by Sally Luxmoore

46. Comment #428116 by GenevieveLee on October 29, 2009 at 10:59 pm

"...the love of nature and evolution is closely entwined with the atheist message"

While this may be true for some by way of coincidence and popularity of nature (many people love nature, I do, and many religious people do, too), science and atheism do not necessarily go hand in hand.

Atheism is strictly the lack of belief in god, nothing more. There are some atheists who take alternative medicine, believe in ghosts, follow astrology, believe in UFO's, don't study science or even believe the big bang theory, etc... Some atheists are anti science, anti medicine and/or conspiracy theorists. Some atheists are liberals, some conservatives, etc...

Not believing in God doesn't automatically suggest a person applies critical thinking to everything, and believing in religions doesn't mean those types are uneducated, stupid, or do not take interest in science or apply critical thinking to other things.

There is nothing common about atheists, save one point (which definitely furthers the argument against considering atheism a creed. Its not a series of opinions or way of life. Its just a position.)

aside: Bush went to Yale.

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47. Comment #428156 by TIKI AL on October 30, 2009 at 1:56 am

GL @ 46: "aside: Bush went to Yale."

We are both right, Professor Brainiac.

Wiki W. bio:
"After graduating from Yale University in 1968, and Harvard Business School in 1975,"

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