1. Comment #430011 by evotruth on November 6, 2009 at 4:32 pm

What a beautiful man he is! Great to hear him laugh too.

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2. Comment #430013 by Mr Blue Sky on November 6, 2009 at 4:50 pm

And that interview was in 1996 - have we progressed?

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3. Comment #430014 by SaintStephen on November 6, 2009 at 4:53 pm

I haven't even watched the video yet, but the first comment below the clip on the boingboing page was a beautiful thing:

My 12 year old is a budding Carl Sagan fan who is having no end of fun learning that he can use logic and evidence in replying to 1) a friend who is an enthusiastic Bigfoot believer and 2) a classmate who insists that President Obama was born in Kenya. And this weekend, we're off to see They Might Be Giants' "Here Comes Science" concert. This parenthood thing has some really fun moments.

Ahhh... made my morning. Now, TO THE VIDEO!!!

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4. Comment #430015 by drewimus on November 6, 2009 at 4:55 pm

Blue Sky,

Exactly. His points sound parallel to all our modern-day heroes. Put it in Blu-Ray format and it'll be shelf-ready.

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5. Comment #430017 by Consciousmess on November 6, 2009 at 5:05 pm

I've read 3 great books by Carl Sagan and I feel sad that he died so young; it is the great scientists like him who contribute to "us" challenging irrational thought.

I use many of Sagan's arguments in my lessons to explain to students the concept of falsifiability.

I also obsessively support Sagan's endeavours, and of course the Dawkins foundation.

Jon

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6. Comment #430018 by SaintStephen on November 6, 2009 at 5:10 pm

Carl Sagan in 1996:

"If we are not able to ask skeptical questions, to interrogate those who tell us something is true -- to be skeptical of those in authority, then we are up for grabs for the next charlatan, political or religious, that comes ambling along."

Prophetic words.

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7. Comment #430019 by D_mendes on November 6, 2009 at 5:10 pm

i will have to remember to watch this video when i get home from work, it's blocked here, damn proxies.

but Carl is and will always be a great man

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8. Comment #430020 by nosuperstitionhere on November 6, 2009 at 5:13 pm

Our lack of skepticism has cost us dearly. I hope that we wake up; we can't let those who know nothing decide the fate for the rest of us.

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9. Comment #430025 by andersemil on November 6, 2009 at 5:38 pm

I'm not from the States, so I don't watch the show regularly, but the interviews I've seen online by Charlie Rose have been well conducted. He makes his guests feel comfortable enough to get into deep discussion but still asks a few provocative questions.

I really can't express how much I agree with every word Sagan says. He was a great man and I wish I had known about him when he lived.

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10. Comment #430027 by Apathy personified on November 6, 2009 at 5:45 pm

"I wouldn't say scorn... just derision" - That's classic.

Carl Sagan = Legend.

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11. Comment #430029 by SaintStephen on November 6, 2009 at 5:49 pm

Brothers separated at birth?

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12. Comment #430031 by SaintStephen on November 6, 2009 at 6:00 pm

12. Comment #430030 by djohn37050 on November 6, 2009 at 5:55 pm

I am a Christian and I believe what Sagan said.

First post for you -- welcome. Care to elaborate on your Christian beliefs?

Other Comments by SaintStephen

13. Comment #430035 by Sally Luxmoore on November 6, 2009 at 6:13 pm

Nice interview. It's such a shame Carl Sagan is dead. I loved the Demon Haunted World and will read it again someday. I am now working my way slowly through all the DVDs in Cosmos.

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14. Comment #430046 by Sally Luxmoore on November 6, 2009 at 7:07 pm

Comment #430044 by djohn37050

I need a savior as I am a sinner

Whose sin? Yours or Adam's? (You do know that Adam never existed, don't you?)

How can a saviour 'save' you? Do you really accept the horrible and positively immoral doctrine of atonement?

Sorry, but you surely didn't think you could say something like that on this site without being challenged!

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15. Comment #430047 by alovrin on November 6, 2009 at 7:11 pm

I need a savior as I am a sinner, that is I do not have it all together and need help.

Not having IT together does not a sinner make.
If its help you need maybe you should narrow it down to the kind of help.

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16. Comment #430055 by sbooder on November 6, 2009 at 7:37 pm

I have a couple of Sagan's DVDs, But it takes me 3 or 4 days to watch them, because like David Attenborough's voice, it puts me to sleep. I then have to watch them again.

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17. Comment #430056 by Sarmatae1 on November 6, 2009 at 7:41 pm

In celebration of "Saganseve" HERE is Carl singing with Feynmann, deGrasse Tyson and Bill Nye.

A warning about this next video, the song is one that gets stuck in your head. It did mine anyway.

Same guy who made that video made THIS ONE of Sagan singing with Hawking too.

18. Comment #430051 by djohn37050
My sin is my selfishness, my arrogance, my greediness, my lust, my idolatry, etc. I need help to save me from myself.

Luckily I never had those problems myself, I hope that doing that helps you. I don't see the benefits of vicarious redemption, seems somewhat immoral to me. Scapegoating never really solved anything for me I have found, but to each their own, if that's what works for you go for it.

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18. Comment #430058 by Stafford Gordon on November 6, 2009 at 8:13 pm

I'm going to enjoy this; again.

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19. Comment #430060 by markg on November 6, 2009 at 8:26 pm

comments by djohn37050:

I am a sinner, that is I do not have it all together and need help.


My sin is my selfishness, my arrogance, my greediness, my lust, my idolatry, etc. I need help to save me from myself.

I forgive you, that is unless you've killed someone or committed some other criminal act. If so, you may be answering to someone else. If not, then stop worrying and enjoy your life.

Other Comments by markg

20. Comment #430061 by uuaschbaer on November 6, 2009 at 8:28 pm

Beautiful, my copy of cosmos arrived just today.

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21. Comment #430063 by zbob on November 6, 2009 at 8:36 pm

20. Comment #430056 by Sarmatae1 on November 6, 2009 at 7:41 pm

Those two videos are GREAT!

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22. Comment #430065 by meisteh on November 6, 2009 at 8:45 pm

20. Comment #430056 by Sarmatae1 on November 6, 2009 at 7:41 pm

Agreed, thanks Sarmatae1! Amazing.

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23. Comment #430067 by Big T on November 6, 2009 at 8:55 pm

Re: Comment #430018 by Saint Stephen (the one with George Bush in it, and 'Stupidity' under his picture) - right on! You said a mouthful, sir! Sagan even wrote, in 'The Demon Haunted World' that the next charlatan to come along might have a war he wants to sell us on. What an accurate prediction.

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24. Comment #430069 by serotonin_wraith on November 6, 2009 at 9:05 pm

djohn37050,

1) Do you believe we are born with original sin, and deserve punishment even if we haven't personally done anything wrong?

2) Why did God wait billions of years before getting round to creating his favourite species?

3) Why is there suffering in the world? It can't be blamed on the fall of humans if we only just came on the scene.

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25. Comment #430071 by SaintStephen on November 6, 2009 at 9:07 pm

23. Comment #430061 by uuaschbaer on November 6, 2009 at 8:28 pm blockquote>Beautiful, my copy of cosmos arrived just today.

Proof positive that Carl Sagan is God. I mean COME ON... what are the odds?

If a Bible arrived at a theist's home on December 25th, say, there would be much rejoicing and prayer for God's little miracle. Even if they ordered it from Amazon two weeks prior.

Other Comments by SaintStephen

26. Comment #430072 by SaintStephen on November 6, 2009 at 9:20 pm

18. Comment #430051 by djohn37050 on November 6, 2009 at 7:22 pm

My sin is my selfishness, my arrogance, my greediness, my lust, my idolatry, etc. I need help to save me from myself.

Jesus offered to save me by offering himself in my place. I accepted and continue to accept his gift and the Holy Spirit then enlivens my spirit. I agree this sounds hokey to a non-believer; which is what I was before I accepted Jesus.

Where does Jesus fit into your concept of evolution? Did Jesus evolve, or better yet, did YOU evolve? Take your time... think about your answer.

Swotty Postlethwaite, our club’s tame intellectual, is not here to help you, but a while back our resident wag Professor Richard Woofter had some advice that may be applicable :

"There's no bally God, so put a sock in it and have a gargle with the lads."

Other Comments by SaintStephen

27. Comment #430086 by SaintStephen on November 6, 2009 at 10:03 pm

30. Comment #430081 by djohn37050 on November 6, 2009 at 9:39 pm

1. I do not know about original sin, I have a propensity to sin.

Can you name a few of your "sins" for us? Don't worry, I'm an ordained minister -- just check the halo. Confess.

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28. Comment #430090 by SaintStephen on November 6, 2009 at 10:26 pm

32. Comment #430087 by djohn37050 on November 6, 2009 at 10:18 pm

I did name some of my sins. Idolatry, greed, lust, selfishness, etc.

Come come now! That's like saying you had arthropods for dinner. A wee bit more specificity is called for here, if you expect to learn anything this evening. We're like a bed and breakfast here at RD.net. We don't want you to go away hungry.

A few choice curse words, maybe? Sniffing occasionally around the neighbor's wife, are we?

Do tell.

Other Comments by SaintStephen

29. Comment #430095 by Corylus on November 6, 2009 at 11:04 pm

Comment #430090 by SaintStephen:

32. Comment #430087 by djohn37050 on November 6, 2009 at 10:18 pm

I did name some of my sins. Idolatry, greed, lust, selfishness, etc.

Come come now! That's like saying you had arthropods for dinner.

Speak for yourself. I'm a vegetarian. Plus, I find the whole business of idolatry deeply shocking and will have none of it.

djohn, you don't have to supply any personal anecdotes on here. Just provide some evidence for your concept of sin.

Other Comments by Corylus

30. Comment #430097 by serotonin_wraith on November 6, 2009 at 11:20 pm

djohn,

1) Original sin is mentioned enough times in the Bible, but you're saying you don't know if it's true?

2) But we're not talking about humans.

3) So suffering was to teach other life forms something before humans evolved? What lessons do you think are learned if say, an antelope gets chased down and has its neck broken by the teeth of a predator? Or if people are drowned by a tsunami?

Avoiding things that might harm you - why is there even harm? Any benefits you might think there are to it now won't be there in this 'new world' you believe is to come, so will it be good or bad when pain ends?

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31. Comment #430099 by SaintStephen on November 6, 2009 at 11:32 pm

34. Comment #430095 by Corylus on November 6, 2009 at 11:04 pm

djohn, you don't have to supply any personal anecdotes on here. Just provide some evidence for your concept of sin.

Party pooper.

Other Comments by SaintStephen

32. Comment #430102 by TIKI AL on November 6, 2009 at 11:49 pm

Was Carl a 6.999 to infinity on the Richard scale?

"Sagan, however, denied that he was an atheist: "An atheist has to know a lot more than I know."[33] In reply to a question in 1996 about his religious beliefs, Sagan answered, "I'm agnostic."[34] Sagan maintained that the idea of a creator of the universe was difficult to prove or disprove and that the only conceivable scientific discovery that could challenge it would be an infinitely old universe.[35]" (wiki)

djohn: Could you please help me with a survey I am doing?
1. Do you share the same religion as your parents and grandparents?
2. On a scale of 1.(leaving your hat on in church) to 10.(having 11 bodies found in your house), how do you rate yourself as a sinner?

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33. Comment #430104 by HappyPrimate on November 7, 2009 at 12:06 am

Sounds like our new poster djohn really needs to get himself a copy of Sagan's Demon Haunted World. After digesting that, he can move on to RDs books and lastly top it off with Hitchens' god is not Great. Then he can come back let us know how it went. I have Sagan's Cosmos DVDs and they are awesome.

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34. Comment #430105 by Bonzai on November 7, 2009 at 12:18 am

djohn

I did name some of my sins. Idolatry, greed, lust, selfishness, etc.

So, what is the big deal? We all have such propensities to differing degree, the point is how you control and channel these impulses. For example, lust is bad if you decide to go out to rape someone, but a healthy sexual appetite is good if you express it in socially acceptable ways(edited I have no frigging clue what 'idolatry' even means or why it is a 'sin'. Maybe you're into worshiping rock stars or something, it is stupid, but not a sin.)

You sound like a victim of religious guilt tripping. You should see a counselor, and I don't mean one from the Jesus camp.

You remind me of a Christian I once knew. Albert would pull a long face all day and with him the topic would always turn to how horrible and worthless a human being he was,--and by extension we all are,-- and that only Jesus could redeem him etc etc. I felt uneasy simply by being in his vicinity, he gave off a very unpleasant 'vibe' (metaphorically speaking for the language police out there). Always mournful and sad and on his kneels praying for forgiveness, it must suck to be him. I hope you are not like that, yet.

P.S. If you internalize the guilt as a result of childhood exposure to Christianity,--I can't say for sure that it is the case,--then it would be a perfect example of religious indoctrination as child abuse. There is no other description for drumming into the head of a child that he is a sinful and worthless being.

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35. Comment #430108 by Steven Mading on November 7, 2009 at 12:33 am

Carl Sagan was, in the 1970's, sort of like the American version of the chair Richard Dawkins retired from - he took on the job of trying to communicate to the masses what is so interesting about science .

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36. Comment #430109 by William Carlton on November 7, 2009 at 12:34 am

How serendipitous. I watched this video earlier today before it was posted here, just for the hell of it.

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37. Comment #430113 by SaintStephen on November 7, 2009 at 1:10 am

39. Comment #430105 by Bonzai on November 7, 2009 at 12:18 am

a healthy sexual appetite is good if you express it in socially acceptable ways...

Does cowgirl in the cramped driver's seat of a Toyota Celica, at 2:00 PM in the public parking lot of Margaritaville in Capitola, with the steering wheel and gearshifter as handholds -- qualify as "healthy"?

A friend of mine once did that...

Other Comments by SaintStephen

38. Comment #430115 by clunkclickeverytrip on November 7, 2009 at 1:18 am

djohn - why did you choose Christianity? Why don't you try another more uplifting religion for a while to see if your self esteem improves. If it doesn't, then maybe, since you have read and enjoyed books about evolutionary biology, you will be ready to try atheism. Every atheist on this website is a damn sight happier with themselves as people than you by the sounds of it, although we are a rather stoic bunch as a rule.

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39. Comment #430117 by Bonzai on November 7, 2009 at 1:40 am

43. Comment #430115 by clunkclickeverytrip

djohn - why did you choose Christianity? Why don't you try another more uplifting religion for a while to see if your self esteem improves.

Cos he's a masochist? :) Medieval monks got a sexual high by whipping themselves senseless, I was told (Maybe Cartomancer can verify that) Being a Christian is probably cheaper than hiring a dominatrix. :)

So there is no escape from lust for poor djohn. Even his very faith may turn out to be an expression of lust! There is no escape from guilt and sin, he must be pleased with this realization. On that Freudian train of thought perhaps the crufix is an expression of latent necrophilia.

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40. Comment #430120 by theinquisitor on November 7, 2009 at 2:21 am

"I need a savior as I am a sinner"

In other words, you want to avoid moral responsibility by scapegoating and human sacrifice. If you did something wrong, then accept it and face the consequences. The only person who can forgive you is the person you wronged, not some authority. Vicarious redemption is an immoral concept.

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41. Comment #430122 by Bonzai on November 7, 2009 at 2:50 am

theinquisitor

The only person who can forgive you is the person you wronged, not some authority. Vicarious redemption is an immoral concept.

This seems to be a rip off from Hitchens. :)

But Christian belief is actually even more twisted than vicarious redemption.

From djohn's account he actually hasn't wronged anyone, but he is weeping and degrading himself because he has a tendency to do something nasty. No one can forgive him because a potential victim for would be wrong doings is not a victim at all. In Christian theology though, even when there is no victim a would be sin is an actual sin committed against God for which we need his forgiveness.

So lusting after your neighbour's wife without actually doing anything about it is still a sin against God even though there is no actual victim to seek forgiveness from, same goes with other things like consensual gay sex. By turning many victimless activities or even pure thought into 'sins' Christianity manages to built an industry based on guilt.

If there is anyone who need forgiveness it is the religious hucksters who have guilt tripped him and others like him into believing that they are worthless sinners in need of a savior. These religious pimps should seek forgiveness from all the unhappy people whom they have hoodwinked and developed a guilt complex as a result.

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42. Comment #430123 by Dorothy Sutton on November 7, 2009 at 2:59 am

"Beautiful, my copy of cosmos arrived just today."

Beautiful. My copy of the cosmos arrives every day - when I open my eyes each morning.

p.s. I was "Commonhumanity" before (the one who writes poems). I've decided to use my real name.
Where can I find instructions for an avatar?

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43. Comment #430125 by mikkala on November 7, 2009 at 3:28 am

Carl was the man who's words, at long last, rang true and reverberated all the way to the core of this person who was otherwise satisfied to accept conventional wisdom.

I remember the deep seeded emotions that were unleashed on the day when I happened upon Carl's Cosmos series in it's entirety, just before it was removed from Google video. I spent the next 3 or 4 afternoons going from "The Shores of the Cosmic Ocean" All the way through to "Who Speaks for Earth" I don't think I even blinked, except maybe to wipe the tears from my face.

My best vacation to date, involved A; Richard's Ancestor's Tale, and, Demon Haunted World. I had my nose buried in that book pretty much every time I was at rest. It was surreal to listen to Carl in my head, whilst overlooking magnificent northern vistas in Finland's Midnight Sun.

Demon Haunted World is, without hesitation, the first book of mine that I offer to lend to the people I care about. If that one's already on loan, Cosmos fills in nicely.

I guess what I'm really getting at, is that Carl Sagan is no less than my hero. And this seems an appropriate forum to share it with you all.

R.I.P Carl Sagan.

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44. Comment #430126 by HourglassMemory on November 7, 2009 at 3:37 am

From time to time I catch something by Sagan on Youtube or in bookstores and such.
It's like he's not even dead to me.
Of course he is, unfortunately, but to me he's everywhere, he still manifests.

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45. Comment #430130 by FuerstOpus on November 7, 2009 at 5:53 am

So I've been reading all this stuff on the "new atheists" and the "atheist schism", and have been trying to decide whether this is even a real issue and how I feel about it, when...

I'm driven by the above video to order The Demon-Haunted World from Amazon (never read it). I click on the button to "Surprise Me" with an excerpt and end up on page 300. (hey! It works with the Bible, doesn't it? Why shouldn't I get guidance on Carl Sagan Day by randomly reading excerpts from this book) Thus wrote Dr. Sagan...

And yet, the chief deficiency I see in the skeptical movement is in its polarization: Us vs. Them - the sense that we have a monopoly on the truth; that those other people who believe in all these stupid doctrines are morons; that if you're sensible, you'll listen to us; and if not, you're beyond redemption. This is unconstructive. It does not get the message across. It condemns the skeptics to permanent minority status; whereas, a compassionate approach that from the beginning acknowledges the human roots of pseudoscience and superstition might be much more widely accepted.

If I didn't know that my brain was evolved to find patterns even when none exist, I might think that this coincidence meant something. As it is I still don't know how I feel about the best strategy for fighting ignorance, but wanted to share.

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46. Comment #430138 by andersemil on November 7, 2009 at 8:34 am

50. Comment #430130 by FuerstOpus

I agree with you that the best strategy is unknown. But I also agree with Sam Harris and Prof Dawkins that the dedicated religious mind is a dangerous entity because it allows for insane acts to be justified by ancient and highly immoral doctrine. Thus there is a natural tendency for atheists to become frustrated and scared at the fact that religious delusion persists today _even though_ science has progressed so far and proven so much-- at least back then they didn't know any better. As Dr Andy Thompson and V.S. Ramachandra have pointed out in several talks, there seems to be a capacity in the human brain to believe in something which directly contradicts and overrides what other parts of the same brain will rationally deduct. If we knew this mechanism and why it exists better, we would probably be more accomodating.

The short story is, people will always fight for their ideas. But we need to stress that science is always subject to its own criticism-- that is, there are no believes to be held, only evidence-based facts which will last until a new experiment contradicts the theory. This is the biggest and most important difference between us and the religious.

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47. Comment #430148 by Nunbeliever on November 7, 2009 at 11:36 am

Carl Sagan! They don't make 'em like that anymore :-(

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48. Comment #430149 by bluebird on November 7, 2009 at 12:03 pm

Wish we could attend the Sagan shindig - sounds great!!

http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/culturelab/2009/11/happy-carl-sagan-day.php

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49. Comment #430150 by andy1968 on November 7, 2009 at 12:19 pm

I posted this on the pale blue dot link also. 'We are star stuff' is one of my favourite Sagan videos. I watch this video often as it traces our evolution from simple molecules to humans

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iE9dEAx5Sgw

Thanks Andy.

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50. Comment #430152 by Sheol99 on November 7, 2009 at 12:58 pm

Saganseve? Merry or Happy?

Contact was one novel that opened my mind, a fiction can be so emotional, yet within the constraints of science. I loved Sagan's idea of possible life in other worlds, esp life in Jupiter. Giant hydrogen gas filled creatures the size of small cities grazing loose hydrogen gas in the atmosphere, followed by plane sized 'predators' that make a living of ripping the grazers for their gas. Dead material falls to the heat below and incinerated. Communication by radiowave ... Wow!

Sure beats xenu with their outdated DC-10s ...

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