1. Comment #430310 by Lucas on November 8, 2009 at 3:30 pm

First, is there a reason this asshat doesn't write under his own name? Has anyone figured that out? At least Kirk and Ray own up to their bullshit personally.

Second, how do we know where to draw the line between informing people of the existence of this problem and giving it undue attention that over-inflates its significance? How big is the creationist movement in Turkey really? If Oktar hadn't published that big dumb book, would we be paying this much attention? I'm just afraid maybe he's getting more attention than he deserves, and that that might be just what he wants. But maybe not. Maybe this really is a huge problem aside from Oktar.

Also, people like Aykut Kence and Salman Hameed are going to need our help and support. Let's not forget them.

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2. Comment #430318 by kaph on November 8, 2009 at 4:03 pm

@Lucas:

1- I presume that's about his PR moves... His real name, Adnan Oktar, is almost synonymous with all sorts of child abuse and illegal prostitution, and I think that might be one of the reasons why he'd rather appear as "Harun Yahya". It is also interesting to note that "Harun" is the Turkicized version of the Arabic word for "Aaron", and "Yahya" is the same for "John", if I'm not awfully mistaken.

2- Let me briefly introduce myself - with apologies for the redundance to those who already know me - so that the comments that will follow make sense.

I'm 23 years old, probably younger than most here, and was born in the capital, Ankara to a family of rural origin, (which is quite important, really, as your risk of being subject to violence if not fasting during Ramadan increases as you move away from larger cities, you get the picture) and was taught at two of the most prominent institutions of education in Ankara. I later moved to London to continue my studies, and that's where I became acquainted with atheism and Prof. Dawkins' books. Later on, I helped translate an article of his during the early days of the ban on RD.net in Turkey, and I followed the developments such as the firing of people working at the Science and Technology magazine in Turkey.

I think, as a Turk, I can safely say that the creationist movement in Turkey is really, really big. It is so big that Turks rank lower than Americans in their understanding and acceptance of the theory of evolution (see Bill Maher's Religilous, the part where he interviews a US senator).

If Oktar hadn't published that book, there'd have been another Islamist who would jump at the chance to make some money out of it. Unfortunately, antisemitism and xenophobia are on the rise in Turkey and pose significant social and political threats to where we're supposed to go. It is about time the EU and European leaders come to understand the current government for what it really is and act accordingly. Granted, their economic policies have been far more liberal than their predecessors, but their political and social views call for a closer watch, especially given the recent rift between Ankara and the West, marked by several op-eds recently.

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3. Comment #430366 by hiraethog on November 8, 2009 at 7:46 pm

It's interesting to note the modern usage of the terms Islamism and Islamist, as opposed to Moslem and Islam. I suppose an Islamist is a Moslem with a political agenda.

Should Turkey be eligible to join the EU?.

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4. Comment #430388 by godisnotgreat on November 8, 2009 at 9:14 pm

Something really bad is happening to Turkey.

In somewhat related news:
Turkey to admit Sudan leader despite Darfur charge:

[...]Erdogan said Turkey respects human rights and would not hesitate to challenge al-Bashir if it believed he had committed atrocities. But Erdogan said he doesn't believe that Sudanese paramilitary forces committed acts of genocide against African residents of Darfur.

"It is not possible for those who belong to the Muslim faith to carry out genocide," Erdogan told ruling party members.

Theist logic.

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5. Comment #430427 by Nails on November 8, 2009 at 10:57 pm

"Why I'm so interested in seeing creationism succeed in Turkey is that evolution is an evil concept that has done such damage to society," said Morris, a Christian who has led several searches for Noah's Ark in eastern Turkey.

And people actually take this bloke seriously?
Would they give him as much credibility if he searched for Thor's hammer, Noddy's house or fairies at the bottom of the garden?

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6. Comment #430446 by Lucas on November 8, 2009 at 11:57 pm

kaph - I guess I'll take your word for it, for now, until I can get back there and see/hear for myself. I lived in Turkey for the summer of 1994, and just spent part of this summer in New York with my friend from Ankara. He'd never heard of Yahya and didn't seem to think it was too big of a deal. But then, he is a city boy, and a solid secularist. I doubt he has much in common with the majority of Turks, any more than I do with the majority of Americans.

godisnotgreat - Wow, that is pretty damning. I can't believe he actually said that.

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7. Comment #430460 by Alternative Carpark on November 9, 2009 at 12:51 am

If Turkey wants to be Creationist, so be it; it is their loss. What a turk chooses to believe about the age of the earth or the origin of life is not likely to have far-reaching effects on the progress of science globally. It may affect their future economy, but again, that's not my problem.

Want to keep Turkey out of the EU? Make majority acceptance of - almost said 'belief in' - evolution a prerequisite.

Their is, of course, a strong case to be made for fighting for the teaching of evolution to Turkish kids - unbanning this site would be a nice start- but, while Islam's influence exists, such efforts may prove futile.

If the Turkish are as moderate as they say they are, let's see it. Laugh "Harry Yahoo" (nice one, weavehole) off the TV.

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8. Comment #430480 by weavehole on November 9, 2009 at 4:33 am

For what it's worth, I had a short conversation on chess.com with a Turkish guy and he felt that about 30% of Turks agreed with old Harry Yahoo.

Obviously, I have no idea how accurate the figure is but he didn't seem too concerned about it.

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9. Comment #430498 by kaph on November 9, 2009 at 5:55 am

@Alternative Carpark: Umm, where do you think they'd draw the line if they surveyed the people who accept the theory of evolution as a fact? 51% is a neat majority too, but that would kick Bulgaria, Cyprus and Latvia out of the EU just like that.

Besides, most Muslims who live in Britain and attempt to establish a sharia state within the UK consider Turks as heretics. So do people who carry signs that say "Death to all Juice" [sic]. It seems to me that neither side of this "debate" wishes to include Turkey.

IMHO, everyone has a lot to gain from a sustained and powerful PR campaign in Turkey led by prominent atheists like Prof. Dawkins and Prof. Sengor (a geologist by training, a famous atheist from Istanbul Tech).

But then, that's just me.

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10. Comment #430513 by Lucas on November 9, 2009 at 6:37 am

Also, anybody notice how much this dude looks like Ra's al Ghul?

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11. Comment #430531 by gos on November 9, 2009 at 9:58 am

3. Comment #430366 by hiraethog

I suppose an Islamist is a Moslem with a political agenda.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamism
http://www.crisisgroup.org/home/index.cfm?id=3301

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12. Comment #430536 by Nunbeliever on November 9, 2009 at 11:11 am

"Darwin is the worst Fascist there has ever been, and the worst racist history has ever witnessed," writes Harun Yahya...

Is that to be considered a compliment or what? ;-) I mean, regarding Oktar's own well-documented history of xenophobia that would make sense...

What an opportunistic moron. The most suprising thing is that even many CHRISTIANS regard Harun Yahya as an inspiration and an authority. Guess, anything goes in the waging war against rationality. Ironically WE atheists bring the (otherwise towards each other utterly hostile) religions together. Apparently we are such a great threat that they lay aside millenia of bloody wars in order to summon forces against the great evil.... ATHEISM!!! Allow me to laugh out loud.

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13. Comment #430550 by Nicholas Caleb on November 9, 2009 at 1:08 pm

Apparently, fascism has the same meaning in Turkey that it has in the United States; absolutely nothing! It is just a word for people ignorant of its actual meaning to be thrown about as an insult.

Here's the logic:

Fascism = bad. Darwin = bad. Therefore, Darwin = Fascism. There's certainly no factual basis for the accusation.

See Fox News and their treatment of Obama if you want to see the same logic in action.

The older I get, the more and more I think that idiocy is incurable.

This Yahya guy has a fitting name though... everything I read or hear from him makes me roll my eyes and say "Ya, ya, ya..."

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14. Comment #430607 by donttellhimpike on November 9, 2009 at 5:00 pm

Lucas #1

- "How big is the creationist movement in Turkey really£"

I don't know but I have seen Harun “guilty your Honour” Yahya's work in my own back yard. Only this last weekend I went to see Islam in its best (Burton's) suit in the form of an "exhibition" at my town hall in Peterborough, Cambs. There were quite a few free pamphlets and erm "science" books by this "author" on offer. My point being, no matter how big cretinism is in Turkey, this greasy assemblage of shortcomings' work is distributed beyond Turkey's borders.

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15. Comment #430685 by RMIV on November 9, 2009 at 11:24 pm

Something peaked my interst in this article was the mention of a quote from John Morris, president of the Institute for Creation Research in Dallas. Being from Dallas and having never hear of them, I googled them and found they have a conference this weekend about 3 blocks from my place. The conference is discussing the demand for evidence for evolution. Should I either: 1.) attend and provid that evidence, or 2.) follow banana man's lead and stand out in front of the church and hand out copies of the The Origin of Species, TGSOE, and Jerry Coyne's Why Evolution is True, or 3.)Continue living my life and ignore them?

http://www.icr.org/conference/first-dallas/

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16. Comment #430772 by brainsys on November 10, 2009 at 11:17 am

Should Turkey be eligible to join the EU?

There are some more fundamental (sorry) issues apart from religion to sort first. Like human rights and the territorial issues with Greece & Cyprus. There is a tendency here to blame religion for everything. But Turkey as a secular state has done both remarkably good and bad things. It is a very mixed story.

Being in the EU may help stabilise things and help support a secular approach. Others see 80 million Muslims as a dark threat. It is the observer's perception as to whether joining the EU would be good or bad. That's why the EU is so divided over it.

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17. Comment #430813 by eoliphan on November 10, 2009 at 2:49 pm

@RMIV

PLEASE go, maybe do 1 & 2 :) I live in DC, where a bunch of the crazies (e.g. Wendy Wright) have offices to support lobbying etc, but they don't really have too many 'activities' like this convention.

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18. Comment #431478 by hiraethog on November 12, 2009 at 10:21 pm

I mentioned the difference between Islamism and Islam. England and perhaps the western world is engaged in a steep learning curve in relation to other faiths, particularly Islam. I'm 52 but it doesn't seem long ago that somone asked me what the difference was between ISLAM and MOSLEM. And in truth it doesn't seem long before that that I didn't really know the answer.

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