1. Comment #431950 by lol mahmood on November 15, 2009 at 8:05 pm

Oh for fuck's sakes! Words fail
me!

Other Comments by lol mahmood

2. Comment #431953 by Ivan The Not So Bad on November 15, 2009 at 8:18 pm

Meanwwhile, over at the Conservative (opposition) party:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8360863.stm

Other Comments by Ivan The Not So Bad

3. Comment #431954 by Jos Gibbons on November 15, 2009 at 8:21 pm

[Religious values] were essential in building a "progressive society".

Religions are scriptural. They cannot be progressive, only conservative.

Anyone wanting to build a more progressive society would ignore the powerful role of faith at their peril

He doesn't know how right he is!

We should continually seek ways of encouraging and enhancing the contribution faith communities make on the central issues of our time.

All attempts to do that have simply blindsighted people by bringing up false issues of our time. Would we even be debating gay marriage if some theists didn't think a book was an argument against it? No; it would have taken its rightful position long ago.

"[Faith can cause] honesty, solidarity, generosity"

If you want honesty, don't go to people who pretend to know things any true scientist recognise nobody knows. If you want solidarity, don't get your advice from groups who disagree on the very issues most important to their worldviews, such as whether Jesus was Lord. If you want generosity, don't ask it of those who willingly accept your tax-free benefits.

"[Faith groups should tell us] how to inform the rest of society about these issues"

If he means honesty, solidarity and generosity, people are already naturally clued up on these things, and what little can enhance it further is usually found to come from those who think as individuals, not as followers.

I don't think you should have special treatment or special favours for any particular faith

Oh no. That's why you're advocating them for two particular faiths.

I don't like the strand of secularism that says that faith is inherently a bad thing

That's antitheism, not secularism. Secularism dislikes church-state entanglement. Given Denham's poor defence of it, one can see why.

Other Comments by Jos Gibbons

4. Comment #431956 by Stafford Gordon on November 15, 2009 at 8:23 pm

There's an election coming up; politicians are just after votes; doesn't matter where they come from; politicians are vote junkies; social whores.

Other Comments by Stafford Gordon

5. Comment #431957 by EvolvedDNA on November 15, 2009 at 8:26 pm

Would appear to me to be an opportunity for vote getting and nothing else. Maybe if these politicians can tell us what theese religious groups have come to the table with in the past it would be a start, most of them are only interested in furthering their own cause anyway. Also, as these groups are tax exempt how come society is again allowing them to have input into to how the country needs to be run or governed?
lets tax them first, then have input, along with a voice from the secular side.

Other Comments by EvolvedDNA

6. Comment #431962 by Opisthokont on November 15, 2009 at 8:32 pm

However, Mr Denham argued that Christians and Muslims can contribute significant insights on key issues, such as the economy, parenting and tackling climate change.

I am extremely curious as to what insights can be put forth on climate change that are inherently Christian or Muslim.

Other Comments by Opisthokont

7. Comment #431966 by littletrotsky13 on November 15, 2009 at 8:37 pm

Grr this is frustrating, I'll just vote green and be done with it.

Other Comments by littletrotsky13

8. Comment #431967 by Steve Zara on November 15, 2009 at 8:39 pm

This is wrong in so many ways.

If they involve faith groups in matters of human rights or education, it will be a disaster.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

9. Comment #431969 by Mr DArcy on November 15, 2009 at 8:50 pm

I am extremely curious as to what insights can be put forth on climate change that are inherently Christian or Muslim.

Religios and politicians invariably produce more hot air, and this gives them a "special" insight maybe?

The rapture Christians want global warming and see it as a sign of the end times. I don't know enough about the Islamics, but didn't Allah give the Arabs so much oil so that they could sell it to industrialised countries?

Other Comments by Mr DArcy

10. Comment #431977 by chewedbarber on November 15, 2009 at 9:13 pm

However, Mr Denham argued that Christians and Muslims can contribute significant insights on key issues, such as the economy, parenting and tackling climate change.

Of course they can and nobody says otherwise, it's just that those of us who are sane choose to say something like "as economists, pediatricians and scientists." and not as Jew, Muslim, and Christian.

I also think blacks could probably contribute something as well, better grab a handful of them too. Yes, yes, and what about that black fellow there, what does he have to say about the climate? "I'm a fucking scientist you asshole!"

Only in this case it would be more like, "I'm a rabbi asshole, what do I know about the climate, I could maybe draw a circle and pray for rain!? Oh, you're asking me as a scientist. Well why didn't you just say so, and why am I sitting at a table apart from those scientists? --wait a minute..."

Other Comments by chewedbarber

11. Comment #431979 by Jack Rawlinson on November 15, 2009 at 9:20 pm

That's it. I have to move back to New York. The UK is clearly becoming some sort of foul mutant blend of the Dark Ages and 1984.

Other Comments by Jack Rawlinson

12. Comment #431981 by j.mills on November 15, 2009 at 9:25 pm

"I don't like the strand of secularism that says that faith is inherently a bad thing to have and should be kept out of public life," Mr Denham said.

And why should anybody give a shit whether you like it, Mr Denham?

The religious panel is being launched this week to coincide with a series of interfaith initiatives designed to increase social cohesion.

So much stupid in so few words...

This government is as sycophantically adoring of "faith" as it is of the private sector. How long before evidence gets a place at the table? Let's ask Professor David Nutt...

Other Comments by j.mills

13. Comment #431983 by Bonzai on November 15, 2009 at 9:28 pm

WTF? You people from the UK should write to newspapers and politicians to speak out. Make a lot of noises!

Other Comments by Bonzai

14. Comment #431984 by Bonzai on November 15, 2009 at 9:31 pm

However, Mr Denham argued that Christians and Muslims can contribute significant insights on key issues, such as the economy, parenting and tackling climate change.

Is this a fucking Monty Python skit or a spoof from the Onion?

Other Comments by Bonzai

15. Comment #431986 by stephen.stallebrass on November 15, 2009 at 9:34 pm

Oh for fuck's sakes! Words fail me!

My words exactly...

Other Comments by stephen.stallebrass

16. Comment #431990 by JSB2024 on November 15, 2009 at 9:48 pm

WHEN WILL REASON GET A WORD IN?
STAND UP AND SHOUT!

Other Comments by JSB2024

17. Comment #431994 by rod-the-farmer on November 15, 2009 at 10:19 pm

However, Mr Denham argued that Christians and Muslims can contribute significant insights on key issues, such as the economy, parenting and tackling climate change.

Well, OK, how about asking the physically disabled about climate change ? Their opinion is worth something. Morris dancers are always good for a quote on the economy. And for parenting, why would you not ask Formula One drivers ?

Who IS this Denham twit ?

Other Comments by rod-the-farmer

18. Comment #431995 by Barry Pearson on November 15, 2009 at 10:19 pm

Double facepalm

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19. Comment #431997 by God fearing Atheist on November 15, 2009 at 10:29 pm

2. Comment #431953 by Ivan The Not So Bad

From the linked article:-

Liberal Democrat leader Nick Clegg sparked controversy when he became the only leader of a major party to openly declare he does not believe in God.

Looks like the Lib Dems have just become the atheist party of choice. Pity they have little chance of significant influence in a "first past the post" election system.

Must look up how far behind Labour the Lib Dems are in my constituence. Maybe if I write to my MP she will be worried enough about her seat to do something.

Other Comments by God fearing Atheist

20. Comment #431998 by Richard Dawkins on November 15, 2009 at 10:30 pm

This ridiculous man, John Denham, is the Secretary of State for "Communities". What are "Communities"? You may well ask. The simplest translation would be: "John Denham is Secretary of State for sucking up to Muslims". His website is http://www.johndenham.org.uk/
If you go there, you can discover that his eMail address is
john@johndenham.org.uk
Why not use it to send him a message?


Richard

Other Comments by Richard Dawkins

21. Comment #432000 by Quine on November 15, 2009 at 10:39 pm

And by such corrosion are freedoms of thought and speech dissolved away, grain by grain.

If you can't get a separation of church and state law passed NOW, when will you ever?

Other Comments by Quine

22. Comment #432001 by Steve Zara on November 15, 2009 at 10:42 pm

Comment #431998 by Richard Dawkins

I am so glad this dangerous development has been publicized here.

I will e-mail John Denham, and if there is any other way you can suggest to deal with this worrying decision, I would be grateful.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

23. Comment #432002 by archfarchnad on November 15, 2009 at 10:44 pm

"Faith is a strong and powerful source of honesty, solidarity, generosity – the very values which are essential to politics, to our economy and our society."

What planet is this guy on? What honesty, solidarity and generosity some of these religious hypocrites show when they're allowed to squeeze out state benefits for their THREE concubines as well as their family. And don't anyone of you criticise it and be "culturally insensitive."

Seriously, it's not like me to rave about things but this Denham bloke needs his head read.

Other Comments by archfarchnad

24. Comment #432003 by Friend Giskard on November 15, 2009 at 10:47 pm

RE: Comment #431994 by rod-the-farmer on November 15, 2009 at 10:19 pm

If the morris dancers want a place at the table, some of their number should blow up a few trains. That's how the faith heads have won their privileged access to the legislature.

Other Comments by Friend Giskard

25. Comment #432007 by megacephalanthropus on November 15, 2009 at 11:00 pm

Science & technology advance a society, not superstitions!

Other Comments by megacephalanthropus

26. Comment #432008 by Nunbeliever on November 15, 2009 at 11:02 pm

Mr Denham argued that Christians and Muslims can contribute significant insights on key issues, such as the economy, parenting and tackling climate change.

My oh my!!! Economy and CLIMATE CHANGE??? Has this man lost his mind??? What would be the christian answer to climate change? Pray and pray some more? The christian way to tackle an economical crisis? Pray and pray some more?

This kind of stupidity should be illegal. I think bringing out the pillory wouldn't be such a bad idea for people like this. On the other hand he's doing a mighty good job himself ;-)

Other Comments by Nunbeliever

27. Comment #432011 by megacephalanthropus on November 15, 2009 at 11:07 pm

"Mr Denham said it was wrong to give special status to minority faiths, such as Islam"

Islam is the worlds second largest religion!

"and stressed that faiths should not be free from criticism."

I can agree here!

Other Comments by megacephalanthropus

28. Comment #432018 by Logicel on November 15, 2009 at 11:26 pm

"and stressed that faiths should not be free from criticism."
______

Yup, criticism is fine as long as everybody agrees that religion is a force for good and that it should be respected. In other words, no real and solid criticism is to be allowed, that is, no criticism or evidence that shows that the very core of religious beliefs, that is faith, is problematic for society.

Yes, please, you UKers, follow Richard's suggestion and give this bloke some insightful criticism.

Other Comments by Logicel

29. Comment #432020 by Richard Dawkins on November 15, 2009 at 11:32 pm

Dear Mr Denham
Why stop at 'faith groups'? Surely the following are at least as well qualified as 'faith groups' for a seat on your panels of 'policy advisers': stamp collectors, hill walkers, professional pingpong players, embroiderers, model railway buffs, ballroom dancers, trainspotters, balletomanes, bassoonists, yachtswomen, pub-quiz players, and contenders for the world record for oily rag clutching.
Richard Dawkins

Other Comments by Richard Dawkins

30. Comment #432022 by zengardener on November 15, 2009 at 11:38 pm

Religion has no moral authority.
None.

A person with a doctorate in Middle Earth has as much right to sit at the table.

Other Comments by zengardener

31. Comment #432023 by Richard Dawkins on November 15, 2009 at 11:40 pm

Yes, please, you UKers, follow Richard's suggestion and give this bloke some insightful criticism.

I don't see why letters should all come from Britain. Religion is a world-wide disease, not just a British one. And some countries, such as the USA, have something to tell us about the virtues of separating religion from politics.

Richard

Other Comments by Richard Dawkins

32. Comment #432024 by Bonzai on November 15, 2009 at 11:42 pm

It is all good to voice our righteous indignation here. But is there anything that can actually be done?

How effective would a massive letter campaign be with prominent people like Richard speaking out in public? These are questions for the UK citizens here who may actually be able to do something ( I am not a UK citizen)

Other Comments by Bonzai

33. Comment #432025 by TeapotTheist on November 15, 2009 at 11:46 pm

FYI Mr Denham calls himself a "secular humanist" in this draft for a speech:

http://www.communities.gov.uk/speeches/corporate/churchestogether

Other Comments by TeapotTheist

34. Comment #432026 by Bernard Hurley on November 15, 2009 at 11:55 pm

However, Mr Denham argued that Christians and Muslims can contribute significant insights on key issues, such as the economy, parenting and tackling climate change.

What Mr Denham is saying is an example of what Dan Dennett calls a "Deepity": That is a proposition that seems to be profound because it is actually logically ill-formed. It has (at least) two readings and balances precariously between them. On one reading it is true but trivial, and on the other reading it is false but would be earth-shattering if true.

One reading is: "The mere fact of being a Christion or Muslim does not exclude someone from being able to contribute significant insights on key issues ... etc.." - True but trivial.

The other reading is: "Being Chrisian or Muslim enables a person to contribute significant insights ... etc.."

The intellectual trick that is then played is to make out that someone who disagrees with the second reading, actually disagrees with the first and must therefore be "anti-religious" or "islamophobic".

However the final irony is that many religious people are prepared to play this trick thus giving one a reson for being anti-religious.

Other Comments by Bernard Hurley

35. Comment #432028 by lol mahmood on November 16, 2009 at 12:01 am

John Denham is Secretary of State for sucking up to Muslims

Richard, that statement should be beneath you. Denham is moronically proposing that values of Christians AND Muslims AND other religions are essential in building a "progressive society", but he doesn't single out Muslims for special respect. The vote-grubbing politics of the whole thing are perfectly transparent; he's clearly an asshat and this whole idea is a stupid one, but he doesn't seem to be being particularly sectarian. In fact, he describes himself as a secular humanist and probably rationalises this initiative as listening to respectfully to community groups. He's both right and wrong in this belief.

Other Comments by lol mahmood

36. Comment #432029 by lol mahmood on November 16, 2009 at 12:03 am

I can only hope he includes a Jedi or two among the delegates. Also, any Pastafarians out there willing to be involved?

Other Comments by lol mahmood

37. Comment #432030 by louis14 on November 16, 2009 at 12:11 am

Richard Dawkins said, "His website is http://www.johndenham.org.uk/
If you go there, you can discover that his eMail address is
john@johndenham.org.uk
Why not use it to send him a message?"

Done. Come on folks, fill Denham's inbox with protest.

Other Comments by louis14

38. Comment #432031 by robotaholic on November 16, 2009 at 12:17 am

Religion is a world-wide disease

- Richard Dawkins is automatically strident and it's so lovely.

Other Comments by robotaholic

39. Comment #432032 by lol mahmood on November 16, 2009 at 12:20 am

Come on folks, fill Denham's inbox with protest

Better still; if you are British, go and speak to your MP - get them to write officially to Denham in his capacity as SoS at the Dept. for Communities and Local Govt. (aka CLG) challenging this idea. An e-mail to his Inbox will most likely be read and dealt with entirely by his staff. A letter from an MP will be read and replied to by CLG Civil Servants, but Denham will have to approve and sign it.

Other Comments by lol mahmood

40. Comment #432033 by God fearing Atheist on November 16, 2009 at 12:31 am

33. Comment #432025 by TeapotTheist

Before e-mailing, I suggest you read the draft speech TeapotTheist linked. In the draft he is not critical of secularists. The journalist in the thread article (Wynne-Jones) may have been stirring the pot a bit, or the speech (delivered in Oct) may have drawn secular flack that Denham is reacting to.

EDIT:

Mr Denham revealed that a new panel of religious experts has been set up to advise the Government on making public policy decisions.

No, he is listening to "religious experts". Maybe he should add a Fairyologist?

In one way the draft speech can be read as a pragmatic doing the best he can with the political situation as he finds it - mouthy moralising godbotherers. In his draft he does criticise some of them for homophobia.

Maybe a massive, but polite, reminder that many people are secularists and/or atheists who reject the moral superiority claims of the religious, and question their ability to take rational decisions based on scientific data as might be required, for instance, with policy regarding global warming, is the correct approach.

Other Comments by God fearing Atheist

41. Comment #432042 by God fearing Atheist on November 16, 2009 at 1:13 am

21. Comment #432000 by Quine

If you can't get a separation of church and state law passed NOW, when will you ever?

Unfortunately its a bit of a can of worms. The monarch is head of state as well as head of the Church of England (good old Henry VIII!). So disentanglisg state from church, and state from monarch, and monarch from church, and put them all back in the can in a sensible configuration without upsetting too many people is just not going to happen.

Other Comments by God fearing Atheist

42. Comment #432043 by Koreman on November 16, 2009 at 1:26 am

In Antwerp, Belgium, a 18 year old girl was burned to death because she was a lesbian. This happened last week. A muslim cleric poored boiling water over her head in order to cast out satan. Layla Achichi died a most horrible death. Her lovely mother claimed that it was not about het being lesbian since the quran condemns gays and her daughter was a lesbian.

Now don't be upset. Of course this was just another tiny little unfortunate incident. So yes. Please ask fairytales clubs for advise. Maybe there are other ways to cast out satan from gay people and other means of burning people alive. These honourable religions have centuries of experience. And the invisible cookiemonster has always been on their side.

Is it still 2009? Not 1409 again? Can we have our planet back? Please?

Other Comments by Koreman

43. Comment #432046 by A on November 16, 2009 at 2:01 am

Fuck.

"However, Mr Denham argued that Christians and Muslims can contribute significant insights on key issues, such as the economy, parenting and tackling climate change"

?

Fuck ?

Other Comments by A

44. Comment #432053 by DeusExNihilum on November 16, 2009 at 3:14 am

The same asinine "everything is equal" nonsense from Labour and I can't imagine that church going Cameron would fair any better (if not worse, but thats speculation)

No surprise that the party i'd rather see in power (the lib dems) are currently headed by an open atheist. I've never seen a bad policy come out of the Lib Dems, But, i'm not very well versed in politics so it is most likely just ignorance on my part.

Other Comments by DeusExNihilum

45. Comment #432055 by InYourFaceNewYorker on November 16, 2009 at 3:55 am

People seem to have this idea drilled in their head that people of different faiths coming together to give advise (or for any reason) is somehow inspiring and wonderful. Once I was forwarded an email (with the subject line "this is inspiring!") which contained a news story about some people of the 3 Abrahamic faiths getting together and learning to respect one another's different beliefs.

To be fair, I never got around to reading it, but my immediate reaction was, "Why is that inspiring? How about respecting people for who they are, rather than what they believe?" I was cynically imagining the three groups sitting there and saying something like, "I believe Allah is God, and you believe Jesus is God, and you believe in the God of the Old Testament; I respect that." Bla bla bla.

I'd rather have someone disrespect my beliefs and respect me as a person than vice versa. I have friends whose beliefs I disrespect, but I respect them as people. I also know people whose views I respect, but I disrespect them as people. Take your pick.

Ugh, I went into another tangent. When will I learn? ;)

Jack Rawlinson: That's it. I have to move back to New York.

Why anybody would leave New York to begin with is beyond me! :)

Richard Dawkins: And some countries, such as the USA, have something to tell us about the virtues of separating religion from politics.

Yes, except how well we put it into practice is another story altogether...

Julie

Other Comments by InYourFaceNewYorker

46. Comment #432066 by Rodger T on November 16, 2009 at 6:03 am

Is this in the Telegraphs new ,Lets talk Shit,column?

Other Comments by Rodger T

47. Comment #432075 by msloane on November 16, 2009 at 7:07 am

Oh, good.
When are the first public stonings to be held - and where.
I think the muslims are the winners in this - 'cause all the infidels will be killed.

Other Comments by msloane

48. Comment #432084 by fossil-fish on November 16, 2009 at 8:09 am

What absolute nonsense. Faith Groups? Sure each group believes fervently that all the other groups are wrong. Great start. I think the answer, in your own life, is to ignore or defy all these attempts while these groups run round in circles trying to accomadate each other. How to hell are they going to do that?

Other Comments by fossil-fish

49. Comment #432086 by George Lennan on November 16, 2009 at 8:24 am

Thanks for the email address Richard here's mine to the twit:

Dear Mr Denham
This is an extremely worrying development. As a representative of Little Brimlington-on-Sea's Morris Circle, I am aghast that you have not chosen to ask the opinion of *any* Morris dancer on climate change, the economy and parenting. If we only ask Scientists about climate change, we are bound to arrive at a skewed policy where only evidence is taken into account. The Nine-Man-Reel, for example has a long tradition of stick-whacking and bell jingling to be danced at harvest-time-O, when average rainfall over the growing season is critical. The government has failed to listen to the voice of Morris dancers in the past, but I hope it is now determined to include them in the decision-making process.

Remember - I am a Morris dancer AND I VOTE

sincerely
George Lennan
High Panjandrum of the Knarly Stick, Keeper of the Bells, Chief Ale-House Meat-Slapper of the Wheat Sheaf, Little Brimlington
Little Brimlington-on-Sea Morris Circle

Other Comments by George Lennan

50. Comment #432090 by godsbelow on November 16, 2009 at 8:44 am

Who cares what this Denham loser says? His party's not gonna be in power much longer, so it's irrelevent. Which is not to say that the Torries are any better when it comes to promoting religious interests, but hey, they're conservatives - it's what they're supposed to do. It's what you expect them to do.

Blair's Labour is a cesspool of hypocracy, feigning socialist principles (which are by definition secular principles) while in fact proving itself willing to whore itself out to religious groups for the votes - just like Denham.

' "We shouldn't have unelected people influencing decision making." ' Absobloodylutely.

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