God's Enemies Are More Honest Than His Friends
For better or worse, I am partly responsible for the recent emergence of "atheism" as a topic of conversation. This is somewhat ironic, as I do not like the term and rarely use it. I did not, for instance, refer to myself as an "atheist" when I wrote The End of Faith—and yet this book is my most substantial contribution to the discourse of atheism.2. Comment #15113 by DerrickB on December 29, 2006 at 2:17 am
As always Sam provides absolute clarity and has an amazing ability to cut to the core issues. In another post I tried to illustrate how a child's belief in Santa Claus has lessons for understanding belief in Religion and an appropriate response. Applying Sam's identification of three arguments is interesting:3. Comment #15115 by Aussie on December 29, 2006 at 2:35 am
It is a pity Sam has to waste his time using his extraordinary talent explaining the obvious to those who refuse to understand.4. Comment #15120 by Joadist on December 29, 2006 at 3:07 am
Of all the things we might try to explain, the Obvious is always the most difficult.5. Comment #15122 by JohnC on December 29, 2006 at 3:31 am
6. Comment #15124 by He-man Daunted World on December 29, 2006 at 3:50 am
A new opinion piece I just found (possibly the worst one yet):7. Comment #15125 by Ole on December 29, 2006 at 3:57 am
8. Comment #15128 by AdrianB on December 29, 2006 at 4:04 am
9. Comment #15129 by Luthien on December 29, 2006 at 4:10 am
10. Comment #15130 by JohnC on December 29, 2006 at 4:14 am
11. Comment #15134 by Nikki on December 29, 2006 at 4:29 am
6. Comment #15124 by He-man Daunted World on December 29, 2006 at 3:50 am12. Comment #15135 by JohnC on December 29, 2006 at 4:30 am
13. Comment #15136 by JohnC on December 29, 2006 at 4:38 am
14. Comment #15139 by Nikki on December 29, 2006 at 4:58 am
13. Comment #15136 by JohnC on December 29, 2006 at 4:38 am15. Comment #15141 by blackbeauty on December 29, 2006 at 5:05 am
If one were to develop a strong faith in an idea, a belief, a way of life, a philosophy or in a person, one could, unconsciously or consciously, end up modelling one's whole life based on this strongly held conviction. This could gradually develop into a passionate devotion resulting in a commitment. Belief in god or a religious faith falls into this category. A committed communist or an atheist could also be committed to his faith in the fundamental principles of communism or atheism, like a believer who believes in a creator.16. Comment #15142 by JohnC on December 29, 2006 at 5:08 am
17. Comment #15147 by Chris Davis on December 29, 2006 at 5:57 am
I'm concerned at the recurring notion that the term 'atheist' has become so stigmatised and nasty that people who are atheists should shy away from it to avoid stigmatising themselves. It seems to me that as long as we shun the word it will continue to be an undeniable insult to be levelled at us. Terms like Bright and Freethinker, whatever their other merits, are chiefly used as euphemisms.18. Comment #15148 by Nikki on December 29, 2006 at 6:17 am
17. Comment #15147 by Chris Davis19. Comment #15149 by JohnC on December 29, 2006 at 6:25 am
20. Comment #15150 by Luthien on December 29, 2006 at 6:29 am
21. Comment #15151 by lpetrich on December 29, 2006 at 6:50 am
22. Comment #15152 by JohnC on December 29, 2006 at 6:56 am
Bacon has written that her trial was "for blasphemy as much as obscenity"; that, by wearing the nun's costume, she (and the other women who dressed up as nuns) was protesting about the extent to which the church was being protected by the state. She also defends the poem, calling it "a celebration of sexuality" and "an attack on a religion which protects virginity as something to be clung to at all costs".
23. Comment #15153 by lpetrich on December 29, 2006 at 7:01 am
24. Comment #15156 by Luthien on December 29, 2006 at 7:46 am
25. Comment #15161 by Chris Davis on December 29, 2006 at 8:06 am
JohnC26. Comment #15163 by Chris Davis on December 29, 2006 at 8:36 am
On the evidence it seems my use of 'cowardice' and 'hypocrisy' is being interpreted a great deal more strongly that I intended, and perhaps it's better if I withdraw the words. I was being hyperbolic, but it's clear that I lack the subtlety to get that across.27. Comment #15164 by JohnC on December 29, 2006 at 8:47 am
28. Comment #15166 by Michael on December 29, 2006 at 9:01 am
Sam Harris' article is a wonderful model of clarity. In the face of such logic how can the religious hang on to their nonsense with such certainty?29. Comment #15167 by Pieter on December 29, 2006 at 9:08 am
i think we all need to sit down and watch the 2 parter south park on atheism (go god go) because a lot of the discourse is quite relevant to it. although the weak part of the show was its message that the world has to do away with all 'isms' (atheism is only an ism because it contains the word 'theism') However, the program's final call for rationality is merely an echo of our similar sentiments. But the source of the conflict (between the UAA and the UAL and the AAA, the otters) is about what atheists should call themselves.30. Comment #15169 by RichardC on December 29, 2006 at 9:10 am
The trouble with the word 'atheism' is that, while it is an etymologically correct description to imply absence of theism, many people assume it to mean someone who is certain that God doesn't exist, so naturally assume such certitude must reflect arrogance. I can understand that this is an easy mistake to make. Before reading TGD I called myself 'agnostic' because I realised I could not be certain that God did not exist. However, in TGD Dawkins defines agnosticism as a position which apportions equal likelihood to the existence or non-existence of God and criticises it accordingly. But I do not think that most self professing agnostics really subscribe to this completely neutral definition of agnosticism, nor do I think that most people understand it in this way, perhaps partly due to the long PR campaign mounted against it by religites! Some of the mud has stuck and now many if not most people think that the proper word for anyone who is not absolutely sure of God's non-existence is agnosticism. Such a definition would in reality embrace nearly all professed atheists. At what point I wonder on the belief/non-belief spectrum does an agnostic become an atheist?31. Comment #15172 by jhb90277 on December 29, 2006 at 9:14 am
32. Comment #15176 by NotWithoutMyMonkey on December 29, 2006 at 10:09 am
If anyone cares to respond to Muehlenberg, his personal blog can be found here:33. Comment #15178 by DavidJMH on December 29, 2006 at 10:10 am
The problem about using the word "atheist" is it is theist terminology in the first place. Although accurate from a theist point of view and historically used in a predominantly religious world, the advance of empirical knowledge should now lead us to describe truth by another term. Some may fault my logic, but to describe ourselves in negative terms of something that clearly does not exist, makes no sense.34. Comment #15179 by Mr. Mark on December 29, 2006 at 10:10 am
Aussie said:35. Comment #15184 by Ernest Sparks on December 29, 2006 at 11:06 am
36. Comment #15188 by Steven Mading on December 29, 2006 at 11:52 am
Ernest Sparks says: "The problem with "atheism" is the "ism" suffix. It automatically suggests something brewed up in a mind, with social consequences to follow."37. Comment #15189 by BeyondBelief on December 29, 2006 at 11:59 am
38. Comment #15190 by CreatedAnAthiestByGod on December 29, 2006 at 12:01 pm
I consider my self a strong atheist (level 7 on the Dawkins scale). But more than this I am a sceptic. This means (to me) that I reject astrology, ghosts and fairies; I don't believe in Peter pan, Frankenstien or Superman, all I want to do is... but I digress.39. Comment #15200 by Nazgul on December 29, 2006 at 1:29 pm
I've posted this idea in a few other areas, so I will repeate it here in response to Comment #15115 by Aussie, and Sam Harris waisting his time and talent.40. Comment #15202 by Logicel on December 29, 2006 at 1:46 pm
41. Comment #15206 by Zaphod on December 29, 2006 at 2:10 pm
42. Comment #15208 by DavidJMH on December 29, 2006 at 2:22 pm
As SH and RD repeatedly state, it is the brainwashing of children which should be discouraged. Adults, who have so much time, emotion, effort, social dependency and above all money invested in religion are a very difficult nut to crack. Deep inside, many may see the ridiculousness of their beliefs, but are almost powerless to divorce themselves easily from them.43. Comment #15209 by jefferson on December 29, 2006 at 2:30 pm
I read Mr. Muehlenberg's review of the God Delusion from NotWithoutMyMonkey's link. Muelenberg labels the book an intolerant polemic against religion. I just finished the book myself, and it is actually a very gentle, nonchalant laying-down-of-how-it-is.44. Comment #15212 by Nazgul on December 29, 2006 at 2:40 pm
To add to my comment above; Yes "brainwashing of children should be discouraged". But in a democratic society, this could be difficult. I think the best we can do about keeping children less programed is to attempt to keep it out of schools. But (I use that word a lot), we have to completely separate church and state. I just saw the movie "Jesus Camp"... scary. Ted Haggard (the Hypocrite) may have given the best warning in the movie: every two days an Evangelical church opens in the US... ahhhhhh!!!! And with that comes more "Jesus Camps, and Christain schools.45. Comment #15214 by Joadist on December 29, 2006 at 3:18 pm
So, what is wrong with the correct term 'Humanist'?46. Comment #15217 by spasms on December 29, 2006 at 4:25 pm
It is incredible that people like BeyondBelief (#37) and their children are treated this way. Here's a great Christmas Story: "How Google Earth Killed Santa"47. Comment #15218 by Nikki on December 29, 2006 at 4:58 pm
32. Comment #15176 by NotWithoutMyMonkey on December 2948. Comment #15219 by HappyPrimate on December 29, 2006 at 5:35 pm
49. Comment #15220 by ryanbooker on December 29, 2006 at 5:43 pm
50. Comment #15221 by Logicel on December 29, 2006 at 5:56 pm
1. Comment #15112 by 601 on December 29, 2006 at 2:16 am
Fear is the prime mover for most people, and fear of death probably tops the list (no surprise, since fear of death is very "naturally selected" through evolution for obvious reasons).
Challenging the faithful on their post-mortem fantasies is for them a psychological death blow.
For example, if one tries to convert an atheist to a theology she could listen with interest, ask questions, and honestly consider the option.
In contrast, even suggesting a sub-supernatural belief system to the believer evokes a fight or flight response.
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