1. Comment #435563 by Prankster on November 26, 2009 at 9:41 pm

Bastards......

Other Comments by Prankster

2. Comment #435566 by wthorlay on November 26, 2009 at 9:45 pm

This is a continuum process. It happens everywhere. It's just a matter of investigating.

Other Comments by wthorlay

3. Comment #435570 by Sally Luxmoore on November 26, 2009 at 9:52 pm

This should not be allowed to die down.

The catholic church is a wholly discredited organisation. It should be bankrupted in order to pay for these crimes and many others.

Other Comments by Sally Luxmoore

4. Comment #435572 by Cowcakes on November 26, 2009 at 9:55 pm

Well I unfortunately cannot feign shock and surprise. After all as shown in leaked Vatican documents signed off by the creature that we now know as the Nazi Pope it was and is official Vatican policy. Pity the Vatican doesn't have oil, then everyone would be happy to invade and overthrow their monstrous regime.

Other Comments by Cowcakes

5. Comment #435577 by Ivan The Not So Bad on November 26, 2009 at 10:09 pm

Other links from The Times and Independent:

http://tinyurl.com/ykn8nc5

http://tinyurl.com/yjv9exz

Monstrous.

Other Comments by Ivan The Not So Bad

6. Comment #435578 by j.mills on November 26, 2009 at 10:12 pm

At least the apology is less mealy-mouthed than usual. The clear condemnation of the archbishops is refreshing too.

Throughout the evening the Radio 4 news bulletin has said that this report "accused" the church of abuse. Delighted to say that by 10pm they had rephrased this - "report has revealed abuses..."

Other Comments by j.mills

7. Comment #435580 by Ivan The Not So Bad on November 26, 2009 at 10:13 pm

Oh, and in the meantime, they carry on thinking they can tell us how to live our lives and conduct our relationships:

http://tinyurl.com/ylr4xg7

What kind of utter shit is that?

Other Comments by Ivan The Not So Bad

8. Comment #435585 by j.mills on November 26, 2009 at 10:29 pm

You're just full of cheery links, ain'cha, Ivan? "... it calls contraceptive practices "objectively wrong"..." What could that even mean??

I offer some unspeak for the church to hide behind: it's not abuse, it's just 'clerical errors'...

Other Comments by j.mills

9. Comment #435592 by Sandra S on November 26, 2009 at 10:34 pm

I wish I could say I'm shocked, but I'm not. Appalled and disgusted, yes, but not exactly surprised. And the authorities helping to cover it up? I find myself in utter lack of words to describe this kind of wickedness. We're talking about children here, this is pratically something that will haunt their dreams for the rest of their lives. Despite that the most important thing is the reputation of the church? Disgusting.

Clearly the superior morals of the church are working out great.

Other Comments by Sandra S

10. Comment #435595 by Ivan The Not So Bad on November 26, 2009 at 10:42 pm

8. Comment #435585 by j.mills

One always does one's best to bring joy (in a manner of speaking).

This was my "favourite" bit:

"To oppose the legal recognition of same-sex unions is not discriminatory." WTF?

Other Comments by Ivan The Not So Bad

11. Comment #435597 by robotaholic on November 26, 2009 at 10:45 pm

fornication lives in the soul of christ-

Other Comments by robotaholic

12. Comment #435599 by Follow Peter Egan on November 26, 2009 at 10:47 pm

Makes me feel physically sick. I experienced plenty of physical abuse by priests as part of my "education". Perhaps I ought to be grateful that I got away with it lightly.

I'd figured out they were utter shites by the time I was seven.

Other Comments by Follow Peter Egan

13. Comment #435605 by glenister_m on November 26, 2009 at 11:16 pm

Unfortunate that this all comes out after 3 of the 4 had died...or should I say 'convenient'. I wonder if any of the 4 had been abusers themselves.

Reminds me of Lynn Johnson's story (she's the cartoonist who created 'For Better or For Worse' in North American newspapers, which also tackled issues like a family dealing with their son coming out) with her church. She was putting on her robe, and a senior member of the church came up behind her and to everyone else it 'appeared he was helping on her on with her robe' when actually he was taking advantage of the situation to feel her up. Unfortunately instead of calling him out or slapping him, she remained silent and just quit the church.

I think South Park's portrayal of the Catholic Church is pretty accurate (other than the giant spider and aliens).

Other Comments by glenister_m

14. Comment #435607 by Sally Luxmoore on November 26, 2009 at 11:16 pm

It was not just sexual abuse.

I am watching this at the moment - it is unbearably sad.
It's a documentary in English about the abuses of the Catholic Church in Ireland.
Sex in a cold climate:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1732953937770017672#

Other Comments by Sally Luxmoore

15. Comment #435608 by Flapjack on November 26, 2009 at 11:18 pm

In other news, the Pope is still Catholic.

Other Comments by Flapjack

16. Comment #435609 by A on November 26, 2009 at 11:19 pm

The torturing and fucking of little children.

By the Catholic Church.

Nothing new.

Other Comments by A

17. Comment #435610 by Drosera on November 26, 2009 at 11:22 pm

Isn't this proof that they don't believe in a god who will pass judgement?

Only the sheep believe in god. The shepherds and their dogs don't.

Other Comments by Drosera

18. Comment #435616 by Sandra S on November 26, 2009 at 11:34 pm

14. Comment #435607 by Sally Luxmoore

Disgusting, I'm practically in tears now. And to think that some would argue that the church is a force for good in the world because they occasionally donate a tiny slice of a fortune large enough to buy half of Scandinavia.

All that guilt and repression...

Other Comments by Sandra S

19. Comment #435617 by Godfree Gordon on November 26, 2009 at 11:34 pm

Knock knock.
Who's there?
Its the police Herr Ratzinger. We are here to arrest you in the name of the law. You are the CEO of an organisation that covered up the rape of many children.
But I'm the Pope.
Oh? Well thats alright then, carry on.

Other Comments by Godfree Gordon

20. Comment #435619 by Sally Luxmoore on November 26, 2009 at 11:38 pm

Comment #435616 by Sandra S

Yes, I watched it all with tears in my eyes.

Such terrible and totally unnecessary cruelty.

Other Comments by Sally Luxmoore

21. Comment #435622 by genetheory on November 26, 2009 at 11:45 pm

As has been said before - can you imagine any other institution where not only was raping of children endemic amongst its members, but were protected from prosecution by the heads of that institution?

Unfortunately, where religion is concerned all bets are off!

How is it that the papers are not screaming the fact that the current pope was responsible for enacting the policy of Crimen Sollicitationis for many of those years! A policy of protecting the perpetrator and neglecting the victim...

Other Comments by genetheory

22. Comment #435624 by Sally Luxmoore on November 26, 2009 at 11:49 pm

It's not just the rape, it's the total lack of love. To bring children up without any kind of warm and sustaining human relationship, even to discourage friendships and conversation, is wicked and inhuman. It causes lifelong damage.

Other Comments by Sally Luxmoore

23. Comment #435630 by Sandra S on November 27, 2009 at 12:05 am

22. Comment #435624 by Sally Luxmoore

Despite being proven otherwise over and over I still find myself incapable of believing that human beings can be capable of being so wicked towards others, especially towards children. Clearly I'm just naive. The part around 30:00 - 32:00 is especially terrifying.

It all sounds like 1984 to me.

Other Comments by Sandra S

24. Comment #435634 by j.mills on November 27, 2009 at 12:35 am

genetheory asks:

can you imagine any other institution where not only was raping of children endemic amongst its members, but were protected from prosecution by the heads of that institution?

Well yes. A paedophile ring. Oh, but this is a church, so these are aberrations - albeit systemic, endemic and epidemic aberrations...

We read herein of the catholic church having insured itself against compensation claims (it's hard to believe even as I type). Given that the evidence shows they knew about abuse and were hiding it at the time they took out the insurance, it would be gratifying to see the insurers refuse to pay up and sue the church for fraudulent dealings...

Other Comments by j.mills

25. Comment #435636 by genetheory on November 27, 2009 at 12:38 am

23. Comment #435630 by Sandra S

I recommend you watch the Dispatches programme Saving Africa's Witch Children. It's hard to watch and I literally found myself crying through most of it. It's all too real indictment on what (brainwashed) human beings are capable of, especially to children.

The Panorama programme - Sex Crimes and the Vatican is also an eye opener. And the US documentary called Deliver Us From Evil is excellent. Particularly moving when the parents of abused children talk about the sheer sense of betrayal they feel and how their faith has been shattered.

Other Comments by genetheory

26. Comment #435637 by DeusExNihilum on November 27, 2009 at 12:47 am

There will be a time in the future, some blessed time long after we're gone, when humanity will look back at the Catholic church and cannot help but weep at the horrors it visited upon our species.

They can try to hide their crimes, but we will uncover them, and unlike what they would want; We will never forget.

Other Comments by DeusExNihilum

27. Comment #435638 by Sandra S on November 27, 2009 at 1:00 am

25. Comment #435636 by genetheory

Yay, just what I wanted to do; spend the night crying. Oh well, guess I'll go see what Google Videos has to offer.

I did see Jesus Camp and that one was horrifying enough even though no one got physically abused in it. Just a whole lot of brainwashing.

Other Comments by Sandra S

28. Comment #435642 by jcob82 on November 27, 2009 at 1:12 am

and they preach to us about morality claiming us atheists are immoral and they are the righteous and just because they believe in a god. If it wasn't for the overwhelming sadness I feel for their victims it would actually be funny.

Other Comments by jcob82

29. Comment #435643 by RightWingAtheist on November 27, 2009 at 1:16 am

No matter how sick the act, there is always an excuse for it out there somewhere if you look hard enough.

And then when you figure out how much easier it is to ask Jesus to forgive you...

Other Comments by RightWingAtheist

30. Comment #435644 by Enlightenme.. on November 27, 2009 at 1:19 am

Only addressing the symptoms, and not the cause.

The Catholic church especially is never going to get to grips with this until it grows up and allows their clergy to have a normal healthy sexual life.

They should De-beatify St Augustine and do away completely with this poisonous belief that 'Original Sin' is expressed in lustful thoughts. (concupiscence)

WHAT THE FUCK DO THEY EXPECT TO HAPPEN?
AND IT WILL KEEP HAPPENING.

Other Comments by Enlightenme..

31. Comment #435647 by prolibertas on November 27, 2009 at 1:44 am

If Catholicism had only a thousand members instead of a billion, it would be labelled a cult, no question. Its pedophile scandals, morbid guilt trips over innate sin, and extremely harmful moral pronouncements would be enough for all to condemn it as a DANGEROUS cult, and its practice of pretending to eat the flesh and drink the blood of its 'saviour' would mark it as one of the most BIZARRE of all dangerous cults.

Other Comments by prolibertas

32. Comment #435654 by Logicel on November 27, 2009 at 3:22 am

How can meaningful care and ethics be given by an institution who thinks it has a hot-line connection to an infallible being? Who has a grossly idiotic grasp on reality? Who encourages blind faith, tithing, and groveling to earthy reps of god?

Not only will people in the future look back in horror on the Catholic church, they will look back in horror at the many Catholics that went along for the horrid ride. Without followers, the church would be an non-entity. In the modern world, there is enough readily accessible information for these followers to recognize the inner rottenness of such an organization. There is no excuse for loyalty to the Catholic Church any more. And though I admire Chris Matthews for confronting that nutty Catholic bishop, for goodness sakes, what is wrong with Matthews that he is still a practicing catholic, that he accepts all that ridiculous dogma plus is still willing to respect the unethical and bogus 'moral' teaching of this festering, scary institution?

Other Comments by Logicel

33. Comment #435661 by Alternative Carpark on November 27, 2009 at 4:45 am

I bet Rat Zinger has a whole stable of catamites.

The whole organization needs to be investigated in the same way as any suspected paedophile ring.

Other Comments by Alternative Carpark

34. Comment #435663 by Rodger T on November 27, 2009 at 4:58 am

But the catoholic church is a force for good in this world?
Buggering little children is not good ? Who woulda thunk it.



Lowlife hypocrite scum. Almost a shame they aint got their hell to burn in.

Wonder how long before Donohue and Bill O`B step up to blame the victims ?

Other Comments by Rodger T

35. Comment #435664 by rod-the-farmer on November 27, 2009 at 5:25 am

14. Comment #435607 by Sally Luxmoore

I watched this in horror. The term that came to my mind was slavery. By the catholic church, in 1940's Ireland. And some people wonder why I call myself a militant atheist. It's a good thing I was not there at that time, I would probably have let all the girls out and torched the place.

Other Comments by rod-the-farmer

36. Comment #435666 by Quine on November 27, 2009 at 6:01 am

Comment #435661 by Alternative Carpark:

The whole organization needs to be investigated in the same way as any suspected paedophile ring.

This is the most constructive thing that could happen. People all around the world need to call upon their local law enforcement to launch these investigations. The more victims who come forth, the more others will be willing to do so.

Other Comments by Quine

37. Comment #435667 by Bonzai on November 27, 2009 at 6:18 am

This is the reason why whenever a Catholic shows up on this site to talk about 'the Church's teaching' and pontificates on morality I always give him/her a rude smack down. To even engage in a civil debate over Catholic dogmas is to give this criminal organization recognitions that it doesn't deserve.

Whenever priests and bishops appear in public to talk about 'moral issues' such as abortion, birth control and homosexuality they should be told just to stfu and that's that. The RC Church has no legitimacy, no reason to exist, none.

Yeah, if God exists and has any sense of justice he should have destroyed the Catholic Church long time ago, it is worse than Sodom and Gomorrah.

Other Comments by Bonzai

38. Comment #435668 by Roland_F on November 27, 2009 at 6:20 am

Surprisingly that this comes out (like the Ryan report) in the Catholic theocracy of Ireland. Shows how far Germany (especially Bavaria) is still in the grip of the black robed Mafia, the biggest transnational pedophile organization. No wonder that there are hardly any case brought to daylight and the victims and parents who dare to speak out, are hunted down and molested by church hired detectives and mobbed by the devout flock.

But what can someone expect who dares to challenge the well funded churches in Germany, with stock holdings of 60 Billion Euro and total assets (mainly real estate) estimated from experts to reach at least 500 Billion Euros.

Other Comments by Roland_F

39. Comment #435670 by aquilacane on November 27, 2009 at 6:37 am

brainwashing. we can't beat brainwashing.

Other Comments by aquilacane

40. Comment #435674 by amazingfuton on November 27, 2009 at 8:01 am

It's incredible to think that they are still allowing a church official to hold an investigation into this!?! Why is there not more of an outcry on this point????...they should be forcefully and utterly removed from all parts of this process, as it has already been proved that they systematically coverered-up previous allegations. The secular world should decide their fate with no input from these child rapists and supporters of child rapists.

Other Comments by amazingfuton

41. Comment #435679 by Vaal on November 27, 2009 at 8:36 am

Now, hopefully, the floodgates will be open for the victims to sue the church. Hit them where it really hurts, in their pockets. The Catholic church has huge revenues, so get with it you lawyers!

I would love to see Darth Ratzinger sell his prada slippers, and get off to Asda to replenish his stock. Hope he can park the popemobile :)

What is most galling is that this outrageous criminal abuse was covered up by senior members of the Irish police, placing clerics above the law. Perhaps they should be prosecuted as well.

The most pleasing aspect of this is that the Catholic church in Ireland has been damaged beyond repair, and may never recover its standing with a modern sophisticated cosmopolitan population. Anybody listening to them banging on about morality and "sin" will regard them with repugnance and distrust.

Who would ever trust their children under the care of these monsters? They only plead their unrepentant mewling hypocritical apologies once they have been caught, much as our smug insincere politicians. Shame on you!!

Other Comments by Vaal

42. Comment #435687 by hungarianelephant on November 27, 2009 at 9:14 am

A few further thoughts on this thoroughly depressing saga:

(1) The headline had me raging at the screen. The Catholic church is not "accused". This is not some pressure group putting together a press release. It is the clear result of an extensive judicial enquiry, and not the first of them. Even the Archbishop of Dublin accepts its consequences. What the fuck is the BBC playing at with headlines like this?

(2) I have previously had some sympathy for Diarmuid Martin. He's a deluded godbot, that goes with the territory. But he appeared to be making a bona fide attempt to try to get to grips with the problem, was genuinely disgusted by what came out and seems to be showing real contrition. Clearly he is head and shoulders above his predecessors in the job. That said, his performance on Irish television last night was shambolic. He fumbled around, never answering a direct question. He has had no contact with his boss in Rome, by his own admission. He says this was to avoid getting in the way of the enquiry. At best, this was misguided, since it let the overlords off the hook (next points).

(3) The enquiry asked the Vatican for further information which would help, and got precisely sod all back. Victims groups, who remain inexplicably loyal to the Misery Cult, wrote to the Papal Nuncio for support, and got absolutely nothing. All organisations eventually come to resemble their senior management. This is not hopeful for change.

(4) During the enquiry, the previous ABD tried to suppress some 5000 (!) documents about abuse on the basis of legal privilege. While I would be the last person to try to strip anyone of their full legal rights, this is hardly the behaviour of an organisation which claims moral leadership and is trying to clean up its act. The vast majority of the claims were obvious nonsense anyway, not least because privilege could not possibly belong to a retired bishop personally. Someone in-house was grasping at straws, and getting the support of the ghosts of the previous regime, long after they had lost power.

(5) This site has been rightly critical of Dermot Ahern, the justice minister, over his handling of the ludicrous blasphemy legislation. But it's fair to say that he has been on the right side of this one. He has publicly pledged that no one will be immune from criminal law, and that action will be taken against senior gardai (police) who tried to obstruct prosecutions. It remains to be seen whether this will be followed through, of course. It is our collective responsibility to ensure that the political pressure to do this remains.

(6) Hello? Vatican? Anyone there for comment? No? Well what about compensation for the victims? Or money to try to sort the problem out? What's that you say? Sovereign immunity? Tell you what then. If you consider yourselves a state, anyone who has sworn fealty to you can fuck off out of any public office, because we can't have people serving two masters. That alright with you?

(7) Now let the questions about the Irish state indemnity to the churches recommence.

(8) This sordid affair shows the best and worst of human character. It's tempting to dwell on the worst, but Murphy rightly gives credit to a number of junior gardai for pursuing allegations of abuse properly. This was in direct defiance of their superiors and the social power of the church. The easy course would have been to let it quietly drop. Their actions showed no little courage, and they are a credit to their force.

(9) This report details only a representative sample of one diocese. Many stories of abuse have never been heard. That was unfortunately necessary in order to get to the bottom of what has been going on without becoming overwhelmed with evidence. Hopefully those victims who have never been heard can take some comfort from this report that they are being listened to and they do matter. Apologies and acknowledgements are hardly enough, but they are the least that can be done.

Other Comments by hungarianelephant

43. Comment #435689 by keddaw on November 27, 2009 at 9:18 am

This type of thing is old new for the Catholic Church. Nice to hear they will be prosecuted (now the main people involved are dead!)

However, the police involvement in this is what's most shocking. Another example of people putting their faith above their sworn duty to uphold the law and protect the innocent.

I can't seee how anyone thought that it would be in the long term interests of the Church to sweep these incidents under the carpet. If they'd done a huge campaign as soon as the first one came to light, made clear that it was morally unacceptable then they'd have looked better. As it is, how can any Catholic ever claim moral superiority over anything ever again.
e.g. Is abortion really morally wrong, or are you just looking for more kids for your priests to abuse?

Other Comments by keddaw

44. Comment #435694 by hungarianelephant on November 27, 2009 at 9:32 am

Spare a thought today for Colm O'Gorman, the man who sued the Pope, without whom none of this may have happened.

Other Comments by hungarianelephant

45. Comment #435695 by John Locke on November 27, 2009 at 9:42 am

Drosera:

"Isn't this proof that they don't believe in a god who will pass judgement?"

that's the 'beauty' of catholicism y'see. kill someone? confess, do penance, and all's right as rain. rape someone? confess, do p.....you get it now...

and for those really naughty, there's extreme unction. so for arguments sake, hitler on his deathbed, priest performs extreme unction because of his magical gift to decide who goes to heaven, a gift transcended down via the living pope from st peter who may or may not have settled in rome, and hitler goes to heaven. whoop! twats....

Other Comments by John Locke

46. Comment #435697 by Tyler Durden on November 27, 2009 at 9:58 am

One of the worst aspects of this abuse to come to light was the fact the Catholic Church in Ireland took out insurance (yes, insurance) in 1987 in order to protect their assets, for they knew full well what was coming down the line.

How does one apply for, and get, such insurance?

Other Comments by Tyler Durden

47. Comment #435700 by Peacebeuponme on November 27, 2009 at 10:11 am

hungarian

Hopefully those victims who have never been heard can take some comfort from this report that they are being listened to and they do matter. Apologies and acknowledgements are hardly enough, but they are the least that can be done.

What has this report actually achieved for the victims? Is it simply a matter of squeezing a 'sorry' out of the the Irish wing of the Catholic church, or is there any further re-dress?

I realise that any criminal prosecutions are entirely separate to, and not a matter for, this report, but its depressing that it notes that only 11 of the 46 priests in the sample were found guilty. Other victims will still be able to pursue any untested claim against either priests or the church I guess? Or does everyone have to suck it up and take it now?

Couldn't the victims have brought some sort of class action against the Church? Has this already been tried? (Sorry, I'm not up to speed on exactly what has been going on, legally.)

Have to say though, these inquiries often generate large fees for lawyers without doing anything real for the victims. At least this one managed to start and end all while the Bloody Sunday inquiry continues.

[EDIT: btw would just like to echo comments about Colm O'Gorman. A great man, and articulate too.]

Other Comments by Peacebeuponme

48. Comment #435702 by Nisus Wettus on November 27, 2009 at 10:19 am

Comment #435570 by Sally Luxmoore
This should not be allowed to die down.

Yes indeed.

It'd be so good if 'Another Brick In the Wall pt 2' could be rewritten including :

"Hey! Preachers! Leave them kids alone!"*

with the video done by Gerald Scarfe. Just imagine the caricatures of the men in frocks he could draw!

Then a campaign amongs atheists, humanists, free thinkers etc around the world to force it to No.1 in every country possible.

Then it woouldn't die away in a few months or so. MTV et al would ensure exposure and damage to the Roman Catholic cult for years and years and years.

Anyone know Roger Waters' agent? :)

* I make no claim on originality for this! It has, at the very least, been used as a headline in 'The Guardian'.

Other Comments by Nisus Wettus

49. Comment #435703 by Drosera on November 27, 2009 at 10:23 am

John Locke,

that's the 'beauty' of catholicism y'see. kill someone? confess, do penance, and all's right as rain. rape someone? confess, do p.....you get it now...

Hm. I didn't think of that. But still, I've read that at least some of the abusers claimed that they had done nothing wrong. So I assume that they didn't confess and did penance. I remain convinced that most of the clergy involved don't believe their own nonsense, on which they rely for their parasitic lifestyle.

Roland_F (Comment #435668) has a good point. There is no reason to believe that things like this didn't happen in other countries where the Catholic Church is or long has been in a position of power (Germany, Italy, the Philippines, most of South America, etc.).

If it behaves like a criminal organisation it is a criminal organisation.

Other Comments by Drosera

50. Comment #435704 by Steve Zara on November 27, 2009 at 10:23 am

I find it hard to express what I feel about this. Shock is perhaps the best word. It is too awful and big to think about easily.

The Catholic Church has been a core part of Irish life for a long time. And that core is thoroughly rotten.

Other Comments by Steve Zara