1. Comment #435986 by Malty on November 28, 2009 at 11:33 am

Catholics, I know, regard John McQuaid as one of the most vile "Hitler or Stalin" ego's of Ireland.
The man was truly disgusting they say.
Yet this article seems to be defending him.
*Is confused*

Edit : No longer confused this article is, well, awful.

Other Comments by Malty

2. Comment #435987 by Pete.K on November 28, 2009 at 11:39 am

I was so enraged by some of the comments that I wanted to post one of my own, but it appears I'm not registered with the Telegraph, and I can't be arsed with signing up.

The comment that got up my nose started with;
"Pedophilia is NOT just a problem of the Catholic Clergy in ANY country, it is a problem that runs the broad scope of Human experience!"

The author was somehow trying to excuse the Catholic church and absolve it of all guilt, what they conveniently overlooked was the systematic cover up of the widespread abuse, the church stifled investigation and protected pedophile priests by moving them to a fresh parish where they were given access to fresh victims. Some priests were moved several times, how can that be right? The church was more concerned about the reputation of the church than it was of the victims well-being.

The article displays blind faith in a corrupt institution, the blind faith that the Catholic church can only be a force for good, well sir I beg to differ, I compare the Catholic church to the Mafia, with a long history of torture, death, scams and extortion.

Other Comments by Pete.K

3. Comment #435989 by CaptainMandate on November 28, 2009 at 11:45 am

the telegraph is an awful paper. i used to respect it a little despite it's right wing leanings (it is what it is) but this is just a terrible piece. is he trying to say the only problem with the catholic church is that it's not conservative enough?

this week i have actually been more impressed with articles i've read in the daily mail (ok one)

Other Comments by CaptainMandate

4. Comment #435991 by Ignorant Amos on November 28, 2009 at 11:55 am

is this prick saying that because the report starts after McQuaid, there was no deabauchery going on during his time? Give me a fuckin' break. I wonder if investigations went back further what, even more distressing, skeltons would be found in the cupboard's of the RC church....every normal thinking person is sickened with this fiasco to date....I shudder to think what is yet to be discovered... the dirty, lying, coniving,sick fucks.

Other Comments by Ignorant Amos

5. Comment #435992 by ThePublicPolemic on November 28, 2009 at 11:57 am

This article claims that the reason Catholic priests and nuns abused so many children is because the post-Vatican II Church is much too modern. The Catholic Church freed Ireland from oppression for generations, he writes, and it would be better if that most fundamental institution devolves into what it used to be.

I thought it might be a satire due to the highly tawdry logic. Maybe it is and Warner doesn't even realize it.

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6. Comment #436000 by black wolf on November 28, 2009 at 12:38 pm

Ah, yes. The old vile 'homosexuals become pederasts if we don't make them marry women' canard. How many years, decades longer will people be declaring such bullshit? Homosexuals are no more conspicuous in paedophilia statistics than heteros are, and the number of clerics convicted for sexual child abuse is proportionally at least double to that of the general population.
A thinking person would assume that homosexual clergy would get it on with each other. Catholics who stay members of this criminal organization beyond this decade do not think. Child abuse cases have evidentially happened for more than half a century, and it's simply silly to claim that they didn't happen before that period. All these decades as much as possible of it was covered up and investigations obstructed, systematically, by orders from the very top, written down in black and white.
There is simply no possible way that someone who is not part of the abusers or rendered completely ignorant, immoral and incompassionate by decades of indoctrination (i.e. the author of this vile rag of an article) can stay in this company.
The Church is a 'force for good' for exactly as long as saying the words lasts. It's never been and doesn't have the potential to improve, because the perpetuation of moral corruption and criminal behavior stems from a doctrine that elevates authoritarian principles and an aura of infallibility above recognition of and responsiveness to human nature.

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7. Comment #436004 by BroughtyBoy on November 28, 2009 at 12:58 pm

How desperate. What utter tripe. Sadly the Telegraph is the only paper in which I have an outside chance of completing the crossword, so I have to put up with this (and the dreadful George Pitcher) on a regular basis.

Other Comments by BroughtyBoy

8. Comment #436005 by Peter Grant on November 28, 2009 at 12:58 pm

Guess we should go back the conservative traditional values of the church like bigotry, witch burning and the inquisition. Then we'd be too scared to complain about the child rape.

Other Comments by Peter Grant

9. Comment #436006 by ashley on November 28, 2009 at 1:01 pm

Child-buggery is the result of the infallible Second Vatican Council. Interesting.

Other Comments by ashley

10. Comment #436016 by Michael P. on November 28, 2009 at 1:55 pm

Gerald Warner has now become the latest entrant in my personal "Douchebag of the Year" award. I doubt he'll have the momentum to overtake the current favorite (the archetypal "Teabagger"), but this article makes a strong case for his appearance in the semi-finals.

Other Comments by Michael P.

11. Comment #436017 by Steve Zara on November 28, 2009 at 2:04 pm

What a crazy and hateful article.

If his absurd reasoning where true, then the hugely more relaxed approaches of the Church of England should have resulted in vast numbers of abused children by Vicars.

And, please, not that silly "celibacy" argument again. If celibacy was the problem, then priests would take adult lovers (of whatever sex they are attracted to). That certainly happens. Paedophilia is not a result of repressed heterosexual or homosexual desire. It is the wicked abuse of those who are not in a position to resist.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

12. Comment #436019 by Logicel on November 28, 2009 at 2:21 pm

Conservative or liberal Catholicism contains the same dangerous perspective that Catholicism is above the law. Who cares if it was the bit labeled liberal or conservative (there is no real difference) that had a more direct hand in the crimes of the Catholic Church.

What a meaningless handle on a serious situation.

Black Wolf, Your last paragraph in your comment 436000 is where the real serious issue lies. These truly unethical Catholics will continue their whining, protesting, and rationalizing to their graves, because they are too cowardly to see reality.

Other Comments by Logicel

13. Comment #436022 by godsbelow on November 28, 2009 at 2:28 pm

Typical Telegraph horseshit! The reasoning of the blatantly conservative author: the church engaged in a cover-up of systematic child rape ( or 'relentless mortal sin' as the author tellingly writes) because, dear Telegraph readers, it was TOO LIBERAL after 'Vatican II'.

Right, thanks for that, Telegraph. If only the Catholic Church had retained its ancient dogma, no children would have been raped!

In the real world, however, it seems pretty obvious that this kind of molestation has probably been going on for centuries. The only difference is that now, thanks to the growth of secularism, people are willing to speak out against the crimes and abuses of 'holy men', and can do so without fear of retribution (e.g. accusations of heresy, torture, burning at the stake) at the hands of the 'devout' who have monopolised Irish society and government since the Middle Ages.

Child abuse isn't rampant because the Catholic establishment is more liberal than it used to be. Child abuse is rampant because the Catholic establishment EXISTS.

Other Comments by godsbelow

14. Comment #436023 by MrPickwick on November 28, 2009 at 2:31 pm

...the unchanging Church that sustained Ireland through centuries of oppression.

Lets hope someone "sustains" this disgusting maniac. Soon.

Other Comments by MrPickwick

15. Comment #436036 by Crazycharlie on November 28, 2009 at 2:52 pm

This would be laughable if it wasn't such contemptible bullshit.

He wants us to believe that before Vatican II, priests were trustworthy and didn't rape children.

No, you cretin, the church had more power to cover up then. Period.

Other Comments by Crazycharlie

16. Comment #436038 by bockman on November 28, 2009 at 3:01 pm

"Irish child abuse was perpetrated by the trendy, modern post-Vatican II Catholic Church"... really? I thought it was perpetrated by men who like to fuck and torture little boys.

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17. Comment #436040 by apaeter on November 28, 2009 at 3:03 pm

So his logic is:
1 - the commission looked at reports starting 3 years after McQaids death, from 1975 onwards
2 - there were only a few McQuaid-supervised incidents in these records
3 - there are many more reports about cases from 1975 onwards
4 = there was little abuse under McQuaid.

Surely he must recognize that this is crap. Looking at these records says nothing about McQuaid at all. Maybe if they'd find records from the 50s and 60s ... or just look at them...

Other Comments by apaeter

18. Comment #436048 by Border Collie on November 28, 2009 at 3:37 pm

This reminds me of the story perpetrated during the past couple of decades by the neocons and the fundamentalist churches here in Texas, that all things bad started in the 1960's/70's. They even use the same language "the let it all hang out" generation, etc., caused all of our current problems. This is also part and parcel of typical myth making, that all things bad are recent and blameable on disliked people, ideas, activities, etc., and the distant past is somehow pristine and free of sin.

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19. Comment #436054 by Sally Luxmoore on November 28, 2009 at 3:54 pm

Some of the commenters are just as bad.
What hole is it that these people crawl out of?
I find it difficult to imagine what kind of lives they must lead.
It says very little for this vile and discredited organisation that it attracts such people.

Other Comments by Sally Luxmoore

20. Comment #436058 by Sandra S on November 28, 2009 at 4:02 pm

Wow. Just wow.

I don't know if anyone has posted it before, but here's a link to some extracts from the report on what the victims themselves said:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2009/0523/1224247210382.html

A most terrifying and sickening view into what went on. I could barely read past the first few lines. And to think that would anyone would have the audacity to try to defend it. It is almost as bad as the act itself.

– When I told nuns about being molested by ambulance driver, I was stripped naked and whipped by four nuns to “get the devil out of you”.

Other Comments by Sandra S

21. Comment #436061 by Cernunnos on November 28, 2009 at 4:07 pm

This article is part of an ugly culture of blame-evasion I've found in conservative Catholic circles when they are faced with this and other issues. It is repulsive, amongst other things, that they try to shift the blame onto homosexuals, thereby stigmatising a bullied minority and trying to portray themselves as the victims. I did some research into homosexuality and its (supposed) relationship with paedophilia, and found this:

http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_molestation.html

Other Comments by Cernunnos

22. Comment #436068 by Eshto on November 28, 2009 at 4:20 pm

Thanks Cernunnos. Good to see someone actually doing research on homosexuality before making statements about it. In my experience that's rare, even in atheist circles.

Decades of social science data repeatedly confirms that homosexuality has nothing to do with pedophilia, and that most children are abused by heterosexuals (usually family members, or close family friends).

Not sure if someone mentioned it, but a recent study, commissioned by Roman Catholic Bishops no less, found the same thing - no link between the two. This made the news a couple weeks ago, but was totally unsurprising to anyone who has taken psychology or sociology classes.

Link: http://www.towleroad.com/2009/11/study-homosexuality-not-factor-in-abuse-by-catholic-priests.html

Other Comments by Eshto

23. Comment #436071 by The_Intangible_Fancy on November 28, 2009 at 4:27 pm

We all know that what a priestly abuser of boys (and this is mainly a homosexual scandal – the Report records a ratio of 2.3 boy victims to 1 girl) needs is a wife – ask any of the Anglican vicars who have provided a living to the red-top tabloids for generations.

So his solution to the child abuse problem is to give the abusive priests wives? Why, so they can abuse their wives instead? I also love how he talks about how all an abuser "needs is a wife" like a wife is some sort of accessory. Wives are human beings--they deserve to marry someone who loves them not some vile child molester that the Church is trying to get off its hands.

And don't even get me started on the whole "it's really a homosexual problem" bullshit. What a disgusting human being.

@Sandra S
Those stories are horrible. I am currently reading a book on the Spanish Inquisition. In it there is a story about a twelve-year-old boy who is raped by a relative and subsequently tortured into a "confession" by the Inquisition. It is like nothing has changed for these people.

Other Comments by The_Intangible_Fancy

24. Comment #436076 by mordacious1 on November 28, 2009 at 4:37 pm

So, the child-raping of the catholic priests can be traced back to hippies? I knew it! Those bastards ruined our civilization.

Other Comments by mordacious1

25. Comment #436079 by PERSON on November 28, 2009 at 4:40 pm

3. Comment #435989 by CaptainMandate on November 28, 2009 at 11:45 am
"is he trying to say the only problem with the catholic church is that it's not conservative enough?"
That's quite likely. Conservatism cannot fail, it can only be failed.

Other Comments by PERSON

26. Comment #436081 by Demotruk on November 28, 2009 at 4:44 pm

I recently read the online book "The Authoritarians" which deals with the two authoritarian psychological profiles (right wing authoritarians* and social dominators), and their relation to each other.

This guy, and conservative Catholics defending the church generally, sound like they fit the RWA profile perfectly.

*not necessarily politically right wing, they're really "conventionalists" so if the local conventional politics are left wing, theirs will be too.

Other Comments by Demotruk

27. Comment #436084 by TIKI AL on November 28, 2009 at 4:58 pm

No clergy should ever be left alone with children again. They have shown that they just can't be trusted.

The world governments should hire security guards to watch the clergy when they are with children, you know like a nurse who is called in to witness a prostate exam.

The church would be billed for their wages, and unemployment would go down.

Let the "bribed the security guard to look the other way" scandals begin.

Other Comments by TIKI AL

28. Comment #436094 by Cernunnos on November 28, 2009 at 5:51 pm

Comment #436068 by Eshto on November 28, 2009 at 4:20 pm

Thanks Eshto, that's a useful article you've got there too. I've added it to my facebook page, which I use for these purposes.

Other Comments by Cernunnos

29. Comment #436100 by Border Collie on November 28, 2009 at 6:07 pm

Mord ... and Dr. Spock, marijuana, Communists, the media, Democrats, homosexuals, environmentalists, liberals, scientists, college professors, Oprah, Hollywood and everyone/thing else which subverts their paradigm in one imaginary way or another.

Other Comments by Border Collie

30. Comment #436108 by mordacious1 on November 28, 2009 at 6:56 pm

Border

...OPRAH! OK, hippies AND Oprah.:)

Other Comments by mordacious1

31. Comment #436110 by TIKI AL on November 28, 2009 at 7:01 pm

So Oprah is shutting down her show out of shame?

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32. Comment #436122 by Drosera on November 28, 2009 at 7:22 pm

Brilliant: the No True Catholics defence. What a surprise.

May he rot in peace.

Other Comments by Drosera

33. Comment #436133 by mordacious1 on November 28, 2009 at 7:50 pm

Tiki

We can only hope that's the reason.

Other Comments by mordacious1

34. Comment #436136 by Bonzai on November 28, 2009 at 8:00 pm

I don't believe child rape and abuse only happened after Vatican II. For example, there were Catholic orders known to have abused (physically and sexially) Native children in residential schools way before the 1960's.

I would say this has been going on for centuries. But with the Church being as powerful as it was, who would complain about it? And even if someone did, they wouldn't be heard or believed. What we know about the Church's abuse is likely only the tip of the iceberg and that alone is staggering.

The Catholic Church is a criminal syndicate. Why would anyone take it seriously when it pontificates on morality? This is surely the oddist thing in our world.

Other Comments by Bonzai

35. Comment #436142 by David Blackwell on November 28, 2009 at 8:18 pm

A peek at the infamous Archbishop John Charles McQuaid. The scene is High Mass in the Pro-Cathedral, Dublin, c. 1950, as depicted by a former Irish Minister of Health who crossed the Roman Catholic Hierarchy in attempting to provide free health care for mothers and their babies, and paid for it:

“The Archbishop approached in procession, with all the panoply of the church en fete: the demure child acolytes, the robed clerical students, the imposing shining gilt crucifix carried by its tall standard bearer. Scented incense rose from the gently moving thurible. Embroidered vestments glowed, bejewelled, ornate and colourful, on the supporting clergy, the distinctive insignia of office of ascending seniority and importance. They contrasted with the stark archaic chalkwhite of the formidable Dominicans and Carmelites, the reassuring benevolent brown of the Fransciscan friars. And at its heart walked the Archbishop of Dublin.

“A broad white shawl covered his frail bent shoulders, falling down on each side to cover his hands, in which he clasped the glinting gold processional monstrance. His dark eyes, glittering in a masklike face, were transfixed on the shimmering white sacred Host. He had a long, straight thin nose and a saturnine appearance, with an awesome fixity of expression, and the strong mouth of the obsessional. One shoulder was slightly raised; it was said that he had had a major surgical operation for tuberculosis (possibly a thorocoplasty). Drowsily fantasizing on the imposing and fearful procession in a mixture of dream and nightmare, I was nudged into wakefulness by L__. ‘What an impressive figure, Noel: would he not make a notable addition to the distinguished company of Spanish Inquisitors?’”

Other Comments by David Blackwell

36. Comment #436150 by Ivan The Not So Bad on November 28, 2009 at 8:34 pm

For anyone who thinks they can handle it, more utter madness from this utter madman:

http://tinyurl.com/yzr65q9

I did warn you.

Other Comments by Ivan The Not So Bad

37. Comment #436154 by Inside centre on November 28, 2009 at 8:54 pm

Comment #436150 by Ivan The Not So Bad

Is Gerald Warner a mentalist? Or has he merely been sucking on the same toad as Melanie Phillips?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ekwUj82wG0

Other Comments by Inside centre

38. Comment #436181 by kscally on November 28, 2009 at 10:13 pm

Ignore this nonsense. McQuaid was a typical power hungry prelate, unfortunately in receipt of copious genuflections from a succession of Irish Taoisigh, including Lemass (as recent publications reveal) and other senior politicians (Dr Noël Browne being one of the rare exceptions).

Expect nothing more from non-elected faith cliques but exploitation of the 'faithful'. The real culprits for this disgrace are the parents who surrendered their own and other children to the care of these underdeveloped, greedy and rapacious monsters.

'We didn't know'. Indeed.

Other Comments by kscally

39. Comment #436248 by Crazycharlie on November 29, 2009 at 2:09 am

In Ivan The Not So Bad's link it mentions the "Manhattan Declaration", a supposed line in the sand where Christian leaders have faced up to the," secularists, socialist, One World, PC, etc. and said, NO more". Organized religion always has, and continually will, try to turn back the Zeitgeist. This is just the latest effort. We should fearlessly just walk right over their imaginary, silly line.

Other Comments by Crazycharlie

40. Comment #436281 by A on November 29, 2009 at 4:14 am

It was the trendy, modern, post-modern, post-Vatican II, atheist women loving black priests of the No True Scotsman Holy church of the reverend Jesus O'Christ (of God II).

Blah, blah, blah.

The real answer to all this is for the priests to stop fucking little children.

Other Comments by A

41. Comment #436282 by Bonzai on November 29, 2009 at 4:19 am

How about making castration a requirement for the priesthood? That would simultaneously ensure celibacy and solve the problem of priests raping little boys.

Do they call themselves God's servants? I think God's eunuchs would carry that philosophy one step further, and it would fit very well with their celibacy, weird outfits and pointy hats.

I should write to Pope Rat to tell him about my brilliant idea.

Other Comments by Bonzai

42. Comment #436291 by TheSuna on November 29, 2009 at 5:06 am

I just had to share this piece of tripe:

http://www.catholicleague.org/release.php?id=1616

Not exactly relevant, but it does give tell to the type of bob-and-weave these types go for to evade criticism.

(as an aside, whoo, my first post - EDIT: and first edit! :->)

Other Comments by TheSuna

43. Comment #436339 by nalfeshnee on November 29, 2009 at 11:40 am

Meanwhile, over at the Catholic Herald -- "Britain's Leading Catholic Newspaper" ...

absolutely no coverage of anything to do with child abuse whatsoever.

Instead, we have such world-shaking stories as "Archbishop of Glasgow criticises 'incoherent' modern art after Pope holds meeting with artists" and "Pope Benedict plans to beatify Newman during visit to Britain".

And Catholics wonder why they have such a bad press.

(Well, of course, if you go to the actual News page at http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/articles/ and scroll down for eternity and a day, you will find one mention of an apology being issued. Then again, if you actually read this apology at http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/articles/a0000554.shtml, you may well be physically sick at the issue-dodging involved, so I would actually advise against doing so.)

Other Comments by nalfeshnee

44. Comment #436800 by hungarianelephant on November 30, 2009 at 10:21 am

I'll see your "Blame Vatican II" and raise you a "Blame Annie Murphy". That is the hypothesis being currently being run in the fog of cognitive dissonance which is my mother in law's head.

Annie Murphy was the lover of Bishop Eamon Casey. They had a son in 1974. This only came to light in 1992. As a little side note, he had a lot of public support and it looked like he might survive in his post, until it emerged that he had probably been paying maintenance out of church funds. The money was of course "just resting in my account".

The hypothesis runs that it was this Jezebel who corrupted the hearts of saintly priests, so that they started raping boys. Casey was the innoncent party in all of this, obviously. The fact that the abuse allegations detailed in the Yvonne Murphy report go back to the 1960s is attributable to some sort of consciousness wormhole in the vicinity of Kerry - presumably.

I wish I was making this up.

I see one of the Torygraph commenters is running a "blame the accusers" line. Exactly what incentive anyone would have to make up allegations in the context of a report which is not intended to determine the truth of those allegations but the way in which they were investigated, is not specified. These people are astonshing.

Other Comments by hungarianelephant

45. Comment #436810 by epeeist on November 30, 2009 at 10:57 am

Comment #436339 by nalfeshnee:

Meanwhile, over at the Catholic Herald -- "Britain's Leading Catholic Newspaper" ...

You might also want to have a gander at the Catholic Truth blog, a number of the regulars on this are also posting on the Telegraph article.

What a vile set of people they are, arguing about esoteric changes in the form of worship and totally ignoring the fact that there was systemic abuse and it was covered up.

EDIT: Link fixed

Other Comments by epeeist

46. Comment #436816 by epeeist on November 30, 2009 at 11:00 am

Comment #436136 by Bonzai:

I don't believe child rape and abuse only happened after Vatican II. For example, there were Catholic orders known to have abused (physically and sexially) Native children in residential schools way before the 1960's.

I would say I don't know, but there again neither does Gerald Warner.

A purely made up argument without any justification as far as I can see. Just a pop at some people and policies he doesn't happen to like.

Other Comments by epeeist

47. Comment #436826 by God fearing Atheist on November 30, 2009 at 11:12 am

45. Comment #436810 by epeeist, your "Catholic Truth" link is broken.

Other Comments by God fearing Atheist

48. Comment #436827 by Quetzalcoatl on November 30, 2009 at 11:14 am

Epeeist's link fixed.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

49. Comment #436832 by mmurray on November 30, 2009 at 11:27 am

I highly recommend Catholic Truth Scotland site if you want to see some serious nutters. They are Traditional Catholics aligned I think with these guys

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_of_St_Pius_X

You can find out more about Traditional Catholics and all the Sects (that's not a typo -- sects are bad but not as bad as sex) here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditionalist_Catholic

There is a list of who is in with the Vatican and who is not.

Real Life of Brian stuff.

Michael

Other Comments by mmurray

50. Comment #436886 by funkyderek on November 30, 2009 at 12:57 pm

Yes, that's where the Catholic church went wrong, too modern. Institutional systematic child abuse is apparently a direct result of abandoning the Latin mass and the Roman collar.

Other Comments by funkyderek