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Sunday, February 4, 2007 | Reason : Science of Religion | print version Print | Comments |

Document Taking the fight to Islam

by Andrew Anthony, The Observer

Reposted from:
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,,2005258,00.html

In 1989, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a Somali Muslim, supported the fatwa against Salman Rushdie. But on moving to Europe her views changed and she turned against Islam. Two years ago she fled Holland after the brutal murder of her artistic collaborator Theo van Gogh. Who is this fierce critic who lives under the constant threat of death?

ayaan

Ayaan Hirsi Ali is not the only critic of Islam who lives with round-the-clock protection. But surely none wears their endangered status with greater style. The Dutch Somali human-rights campaigner looks like a fashion model and talks like a public intellectual. Tall and slender with rod-straight posture and a schoolgirl smile, she is a thinker of stunning clarity, able to express ideas in her third language with a precision that very few could achieve in their first. This combination of elegance and eloquence would be impressive in any circumstances. Under threat of death, it is nothing short of incredible.

A little over two years ago, a second-generation Dutch Moroccan by the name of Mohammed Bouyeri sent a letter to Ayaan Hirsi Ali. Aside from the destruction of Holland and Europe, Bouyeri called for the death of Hirsi Ali, whom he described as a 'fundamentalist unbeliever' and a 'soldier of evil'. His macabre method of delivering the correspondence was to impale the note in the chest of the filmmaker and outspoken maverick, Theo van Gogh, having already shot him eight times and cut his throat through to the spine. Van Gogh had made a short film with Hirsi Ali called Submission 1, in which lines from the Koran, detailing a man's right to beat his wife, were superimposed on the body of an actress portraying a victim of domestic violence.
The murder took place in broad daylight during the morning rush hour in a busy Amsterdam high street. Though the letter was addressed to Hirsi Ali, it was intended for a wider audience. Its message, while incoherent and rambling, was shockingly simple: say the wrong thing about Islam and nowhere is safe for you. It was medieval justice meted out in one of the most liberal and modern cities in the world. The killer, it turned out, was part of a cell linked to a fundamentalist network that stretched across Europe.

The murder of van Gogh had the unintended effect of bringing Hirsi Ali global recognition. While she was whisked away by Dutch security to an army base and on to a 'dismal motel' near an industrial estate in Massachusetts, cut off from the rest of the planet, the rest of the planet became suddenly very interested in her. The subject of numerous profiles, she was named the following year one of the '100 Most Influential People of the World' by Time magazine.

In Holland, though, Hirsi Ali was already both famous and infamous. In Amsterdam a few days after the murder, I spoke to Muslims on the street about the killing. The majority blamed Hirsi Ali. 'This woman is the cause of all the problems, telling lies about Islam,' one told me. 'If she hadn't sucked van Gogh into this, he'd still be alive today.'

The reason Bouyeri killed van Gogh rather than Hirsi Ali was that she was already under police protection. Two years before van Gogh's slaying, Hirsi Ali had called Islam 'backward' in a TV debate and was forced into hiding. Her subsequent media profile encouraged the Dutch Liberal Party to offer Hirsi Ali a position as an MP. She served with some distinction, focusing on issues such as domestic violence and female genital mutilation - the sort of campaigns that used to be part of frontline feminism but which had become increasingly neglected owing to multicultural sensitivities.

I met Hirsi Ali at her publisher's office in central London last week. Dutch bodyguards follow her everywhere she goes, and reportedly in Britain Special Branch officers afford further protection, though neither were in evidence. She looked as sharp as a pin in a black trouser suit, even if she was jet-lagged and tired, having flown in from her new home in the United States.

Last year Hirsi Ali, the most assimilated of all Dutch immigrants, was rejected by her adopted homeland twice over. Residents in her apartment block gained a court ruling, under European Human Rights law, stipulating that her presence placed her neighbours at risk, and she was duly evicted. At the same time a TV documentary alleged the MP had provided false information on her original asylum application. Hirsi Ali had admitted as much many times in interviews but nonetheless a minister in her own party decided to revoke her citizenship. In a farcical series of events, the citizenship was reinstated and the government collapsed. Meanwhile Hirsi Ali moved to Washington DC to take up a post at the American Enterprise Institute, a conservative think-tank.

She says she feels at home in America, a nation of immigrants. The move was only the latest, and perhaps least dramatic, in a lifetime of peripatetic reinventions. Born in Somalia to a resistance leader, she was exiled to Ethiopia, Saudi Arabia and Kenya. In Nairobi she joined the Muslim Brotherhood and in 1989 she believed that Salman Rushdie should be killed for having blasphemed the prophet. How she went from devout believer to fearless opponent, from a loyal clan member to being renounced by her family, from Africa to Europe, and from blind faith to unbending reason is the compelling story she tells in her new autobiography entitled, with characteristic bluntness, Infidel

Strictly speaking Hirsi Ali is not an infidel but an apostate, a designation that in the Koran warrants the punishment of death. The distinction is not without significance. In a poll published last week, one in three British Muslims in the 16-24 age group agreed that 'Muslim conversion is forbidden and punishable by death'.

This figure comes as no surprise to Hirsi Ali. She argues that Europe's determination to maintain cultural difference will lead increasing numbers of alienated Muslims to seek the unambiguity of fundamentalism. Liberals, she says, have shirked the responsibility of making the case for their own beliefs. They need to start speaking out in favour of the values of secular humanism. And they need to make clear that they are not compatible with religious bigotry and superstition. 'You have to say that if you want the Prophet Muhammad to be your moral guide in the 21st century and you are aware of the choices the Prophet Muhammad made towards unbelievers, women, homosexuals, do you really think you're going to succeed? You will get into some sort of cognitive dissonance if you at the same time want to adapt to a life here.'

Without an open and robust critique of the nature of the prophet's teachings, she goes on, 'these clerics proselytising radical Islam make much, much more sense. Because the radical Muslims say that democracy is bad, and the young Muslim mind says "Why is it bad?". Because the Koran says it's bad. That makes more sense than democracy is good, the rights of individuals must be observed but you can also hang on to what the Koran says. I say stop that and appeal to and challenge young minds.'

When it comes to words, Hirsi Ali is not one to look for the mincer. She speaks in a language that makes no concessions to the softening euphemisms of political correctness. Those immersed in circumspection and ever vigilant to the contemporary sin of offence are bound to ask themselves if she's allowed to say what she says. In this respect her predicament is reminiscent of the moment in Basic Instinct when Sharon Stone lights a cigarette under interrogation in a police station. She's told that's it's non-smoking environment and she replies: 'So arrest me.' Hirsi Ali's life is already in jeopardy. She's long past the point of polite restraint.

Some observers find her forthright approach refreshing and, indeed, intoxicating, but many recoil from her unadorned conviction. Writing in the New York Review of Books, the historian Timothy Garton Ash described Hirsi Ali as a 'slightly simplistic Enlightenment fundamentalist'. Last year when Garton Ash chaired a discussion with Hirsi Ali at the ICA, he seemed both to admire the incisiveness of her quietly spoken logic and to wince at its unshakeable conclusions.

'For him,' Hirsi Ali laughs, 'the Enlightenment is complex. For me, it isn't. There's nothing complex about it.' A student of 17th- and 18th-century political ideas, she doesn't mean that she thinks the Enlightenment was some kind of uniform philosophical movement. The simplicity, for her, is the legacy of the Enlightenment, the things we take for granted about Western sociopolitical culture: the rule of law, the rights of the individual, freedom of expression. To Hirsi Ali these are bedrock precepts that should not be compromised in the name of cultural diversity.

Most of the political classes would agree with her in principle but like to take a more nuanced, and often evasive, stance in practice. She was one of the few intellectuals, for example, who rushed to support the Danes in the cartoon crisis last year. If you believe in the right of freedom of expression, she says, you have to defend that right. In a debate a few years back, Hirsi Ali challenged the Swiss Muslim academic Tariq Ramadan, something of a poster boy for the multicultural left, to be more consistent and clear-cut in what he said. Was the Koran the word of God or a man-made text that was out of date? Ramadan responded by questioning Hirsi Ali's adversarial style. 'The question,' he said, 'is whether you want to change the mentality or please the audience.'

Does her bald delivery not further alienate Muslims, forcing them to cling to traditional values? Hirsi Ali is too smooth of skin and composure to bristle, but it is obviously an accusation she finds irritating.

'Tariq Ramadan is filled with contempt for Muslims because he believes they have no faculties of reason,' she replies in a beguilingly friendly tone, as though she had remarked that he had an excellent taste in shirts. 'If I say that terrorism is created in the name of Islam suddenly they take up terrorism? He gives me so much more power than I have. Why don't my remarks make him turn to terrorism? Because he's above that. Like many believers in multiculturalism, he puts himself on a higher plane. The other thing is that it's not about your style, it's about your content. Are my propositions right or wrong? Is it social, cultural and religious beliefs that cause economic backwardness or is it the other way round? My take on this is the cultural and religious elements are far more important to look at. That is what we should be looking at and not how I say it.'

All the same, it's fair to say that her audience is made up largely of white liberal males, rather than the Muslim women she wishes to liberate. In Holland, a female Muslim politician named Fatima Elatik told me: 'She's appealing to Dutch society, to middle-class Dutch-origin people. She talks about the emancipation of women but you can't push it down their throats. If I could talk to her, I would tell her that she needs to get a couple of Muslim women around her.'

Hirsi Ali dismisses this as 'a very silly remark. I started off in a position where none of these women were visible anyway except as proxies to be put forward to get subsidies from the government. Just keep singing we're discriminated against. No Muslim women are allowed into this debate by their own groups. So it's way too early. By the time these women are assertive enough, I won't be around. It will be one generation on.'

She also argues that it's important to address white liberals because they need to overcome the self-censoring effects of post-colonial guilt. 'If you want to feel guilty,' snaps Hirsi Ali, 'feel guilty that you didn't bring John Stuart Mill and left us only with the Koran. It doesn't help to say my forefathers oppressed your forefathers, and remain guilty forever.'

There is no zealot like the convert, goes the old saying, and many commentators have concluded that Hirsi Ali is a prime secular example. 'In a pattern familiar to historians of political intellectuals,' wrote Garton Ash, 'she has gone from one extreme to the other'. The word on Hirsi Ali is that she is 'traumatised' by her upbringing and her subsequent adoption of a Western lifestyle. It's the word that Ian Buruma uses to describe her condition in his book Murder In Amsterdam

Needless to say, she finds this appraisal of her ideas patronising. It was, she says, partly in an effort to combat this impression that she wrote Infidel. 'People can see that there is not much trauma in my story.'

That depends on what you think constitutes trauma. The account of being held down by the legs, aged five, and having her clitoris and inner labia cut off with a pair of scissors will certainly alarm many readers. 'I heard it,' she writes, 'like a butcher snipping the fat off a piece of meat.' The fierce beatings she receives at the hands of her embittered mother, and the fractured skull inflicted on her by a brutal religious teacher, these too would leave psychological scars on most of us.

But as Hirsi Ali writes, they were normal events in her childhood and in the lives of people she knew. Death and illness were commonplace in Africa, and by African standards she lived well. There is nothing melodramatic in Hirsi Ali's prose. It's matter-of-fact and also, as she is quick to point out, entirely subjective. It's possible, she says, that her family will remember things differently. 'But it's my story and if you undertake such an endeavour you have to be honest. Usually people make excuses for their culture and family etcetera. I could tell the story that we in the Third World have things that the West could learn from, which is obviously true, but that isn't what I wanted to show. My argument is that western liberal culture is superior to Islamic tribal group culture.'

Hirsi Ali was born Ayaan Hirsi Magan 38 years ago in Mogadishu, Somalia. Her father, Hirsi Magan Isse, was a leading figure in the Somali Salvation Democratic Front. He was imprisoned by the Somali dictator Siad Barre during much of Hirsi Ali's childhood, and thereafter she lived in exile with her mother and brother and sister, largely estranged from her father, who remarried. In Kenya she gained a limited amount of freedom from the strict Somali clan system, though its extended network continued to circumscribe her life.

She was a good but not exceptional student at school in Nairobi and went on to attend a secretarial course. Her mother and religious instructors brought her up to distrust unbelievers and to hate Jews, who, she was told, were responsible for all the problems of the world. Her mother did not want her daughters to work and in 1992 her father announced that he had arranged a marriage to a distant cousin living in Canada. Hirsi Ali maintains that she had no desire to marry the man but also, given family and clan honour, no choice. 'I was condemned to a predictable fate,' she writes, 'that of being a subservient wife to a stranger.'

En route to her husband in Canada she stopped over in Germany, and from there she went to Holland where, in a sudden surge of self-empowerment, she claimed asylum. She was told that running away from an arranged marriage was no reason to be awarded refugee status, so she made up a story about fleeing persecution in Somalia. It was then that she changed her name to Ali, the better to elude her infuriated clan.

She marvelled at the free room and board and health care provided by the Dutch state: '...all these people were busy helping you, and this for foreigners. How on earth did they treat their own clans?' Not all her fellow refugees were quite so appreciative. Many complained of racism and saw themselves as victims of European imperialism. 'The Europeans had colonised Somalia,' writes Hirsi Ali in characterising this sense of grievance, 'which was why we all had no qualifications and were in this mess to begin with. I thought that was so clearly nonsense. We had torn ourselves apart, all on our own.'

Little by little, she dropped the trappings of her culture and religion. First she removed her headscarf, then she wore jeans, rode a bicycle, fraternised with Dutch people, and with Jews, went to a pub, later drank a glass of wine, and eventually she met and moved in with a Dutch man. But her younger sister, who had been more of a rebel, joined Hirsi Ali in Holland and grew increasingly religious, to the point of psychosis. She returned to Africa and died following a miscarriage.

Working as a translator for Dutch social services, Hirsi Ali came across a hidden world of domestic violence, honour killings and of women entombed in the home, unable to speak Dutch or English and with no idea about the society in which they lived. 'While the Dutch were generously contributing money to international aid organisations,' she writes, 'they were also ignoring the silent suffering of Muslim women and children in their own backyard.'

She took a degree in political science at Leiden university - no mean feat for a refugee without any previous academic ambition - after which she became a researcher with a Labour party think tank, looking at immigration. By now her belief in Islam was precariously loose but she still held on to the idea that she was a Muslim. But the events of 11 September 2001 changed that. 'The little shutter at the back of my mind, where I pushed all my dissonant thoughts, snapped open after the 9/11 attacks, and it refused to close again. I found myself thinking that the Koran is not a holy document. It is a historical record, written by humans. It is one version of events, as perceived by the men who wrote it 150 years after the Prophet died. And it is a very tribal and Arab version of events. It spreads a culture that is brutal, bigoted, fixated on controlling women, and harsh in war.'

She decided that what the Muslim world needed was its own Voltaire. And after she wrote an article outlining her ideas and concerns, some readers decided that they had found their new Spinoza, the 17th-century Jewish refugee from the Inquisition who came to Holland and founded the Enlightenment.

No doubt Hirsi Ali's critics would find the comparison hard to stomach. Spinoza was against religious persecution, whereas Hirsi Ali, say her opponents, is an arch exponent of Islamophobia. One such critic has written a stinging attack on Hirsi Ali in this month's Times Literary Supplement. Maria Golia, an Egyptian-based academic, writes: 'Hirsi Ali seems far more interested in indicting Islam than helping damaged women, whose horror stories she conveniently trots out whenever she needs to bludgeon home a point.'

She takes Hirsi Ali to task on female genital mutilation which, she points out, is not an Islamic practice. Hirsi Ali wanted the Dutch government to institute medical checks on young girls in vulnerable circumstances. Golia calls the idea 'institutionalised violence' and prefers an approach that 'requires understanding of context and coalition-building, not to mention compassion and subtlety'.

It should be said that in Infidel Hirsi Ali specifically states that FGM predates Islam, is not limited to Islam and that it is not practised in many Islamic countries. However, she adds, it is very often 'justified in the name of Islam'. Indeed one need only look at the advice of the leading Egyptian cleric, Yusuf al-Qaradawi, who is considered one of the most influential scholars in Islam. Qaradawi has been promoted by London mayor Ken Livingstone as a moderate voice, but on his Islam-online website he writes of female circumcision: 'Anyhow, it is not obligatory, whoever finds it serving the interest of his daughters should do it, and I personally support this under the current circumstances in the modern world.'

She characterises the manner in which liberals sidestep such details as a confusion of facts and strategy. 'Some people will accept that Islam is backward but they're not going to say that because Muslims will be offended. "We want them to become liberals, so we're just going to trick them into a secular humanistic way of thinking."' At this she lets out a giggle, as if tickled by the absurdity of the idea. 'But people are aware of what's going on. That's why many Muslims are suspicious of liberals. Because they know they are not being taken seriously.'

Perhaps a more telling symbol of the growing cultural gap between mainstream Western society and doctrinaire Islam is the veil. Again Hirsi Ali does not look around for a fence to sit on. 'The veil,' she says, 'is to show that women are responsible for the sexual self-control of men.' It's a surgical observation, cutting right through to the bone of the issue. She goes on to note that in all communities where the veil is actively observed boys are not taught to restrain themselves. 'They look upon all those who are not veiled as women who are looking for sexual contact and they just go about molesting and being a nuisance.'

But what about those women who say that the veil has nothing to do with sex, that is a demonstration of their love of Allah.

'That is a very small group of women?'

But are you to deny them their right to dress as they please?

'No,' she insists, 'I don't want to deny them that and I don't want anyone to deny them that.'

Her solution is secular civic space - for example in schools and government offices - in which all religion is removed. The French model then? That's hardly been a great success. 'It's never been tried,' she counters. 'The French have voiced it but never implemented it. They've created these zones outside Paris where people from Third World countries are put together and excluded from the secular neutral model. They've preached secular Republicanism and practised multiculturalism, that's the whole French hypocrisy.'

Hirsi Ali doesn't really do small talk. She's not interested in talking about her private life, whether she is in a relationship, how often she thinks about the danger she is in, her everyday life in America, or any of the sort of personal details that fascinate people who want to know what it's like to live life under threat of death. This is partly because she is not supposed to give away any information that may aid potential attackers. But more than that, it's because she really only wants to talk about ideas. To some readers, especially Muslim readers, it may seem that she only wants to talk about one idea: the danger of Islam.

Certainly, it's a major preoccupation. But for all her clinical rhetoric, Hirsi Ali is not really interested in carving the world into two blocks of clashing civilisations. At heart she is a universalist, a passionate believer in human rights. If you believe in equality for women, then you must believe in equality for all women, regardless of their culture or religion. Her deepest wish is to allow the world's oppressed peoples, especially women, to share in the fruits of reason. 'And to do that,' she says, 'someone's got to shake the tree.'

As she sees it, Islamic society is inimical to development. 'So everyone wants to move here, and they want to make this place look like there. We shouldn't cling to the customs and beliefs that caused us to move out in the first place. Unfortunately people in the Third World think that just by moving house they leave their misery behind. And that's what the integration debate is about: if you take those values with you and come here, it's not going to change your misery.'

This is in essence what Tony Blair said a few weeks back when he spoke about a 'duty to integrate', and suggested that those people looking to move to Britain who didn't agree with British values should perhaps think about not coming. To some, Blair's comments were tantamount to a crude 'send 'em back' agenda. This in itself is perhaps reason to be thankful for Hirsi Ali. She knows what life is like without the benefit of the freedoms and rights that Europe has established and she, at least, is not afraid to emphasise how crucial it is not to lose them.

But of course in voicing her opinion in the style she does, she risks lumping together over a billion people from different nations, cultures and traditions as a single 'problem'. For Hirsi Ali, the problem is one of self-definition. If Muslims want to assert a religious text as the basis of their public identity, then they have to accept public debate of that text and its ideas with all the discomfort and offence that may involve.

In truth there is probably room for both what Hirsi Ali calls 'Tariq Ramadan gymnastics' and her more uncompromising approach. Though it may say something for our incurable self-loathing that it is Hirsi Ali, the most fervent admirer of European liberalism, that we've effectively sent packing.

· Infidel by Ayaan Hirsi Ali is published by Free Press in paperback, £12.99.

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1. Comment #20578 by Series of Tubes on February 4, 2007 at 1:55 pm

Really brilliant woman. I wish there were 10,000 more of her.

I found this critic's position slightly odd:

"No doubt Hirsi Ali's critics would find the comparison hard to stomach. Spinoza was against religious persecution, whereas Hirsi Ali, say her opponents, is an arch exponent of Islamophobia. One such critic has written a stinging attack on Hirsi Ali in this month's Times Literary Supplement. Maria Golia, an Egyptian-based academic, writes: 'Hirsi Ali seems far more interested in indicting Islam than helping damaged women, whose horror stories she conveniently trots out whenever she needs to bludgeon home a point.'"

Seems a false dichotomy - Islam itself is the primary cause of the damage inflicted on Muslim women. Ali is providing them the greatest possible help by cutting directly to the core of the problem.

Also - what's wrong with Islamophobia? Islam seems, to me, to be a religion worth being quite very phobic about.

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2. Comment #20579 by ryanjevansuk on February 4, 2007 at 2:19 pm

I quite agree with the above, Islam terrifies me.

And also liberalism cannot just be about accommodating the belief systems of others even if those beliefs are in direct opposition to our own. Liberalism has to stand up for what it believes in with passion and conviction.

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3. Comment #20583 by Luthien on February 4, 2007 at 2:54 pm

 avatarSomeone needed to say it, and she has. A very brave woman.

'The veil,' she says, 'is to show that women are responsible for the sexual self-control of men.'

What an accurate assesment of the situation, I'm going to make an effort to remember it.

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4. Comment #20590 by MelM on February 4, 2007 at 4:16 pm

A nicely done review. I'm sold; I'll get the book this evening.
To hell with all the appeasers, I like what she says and the way she says it. This remarkable woman must be protected!!!

Though it may say something for our incurable self-loathing that it is Hirsi Ali, the most fervent admirer of European liberalism, that we've effectively sent packing.
I hope the U.S. will be different for her but I'm not sure that it will be. Even the Democratic National Committee, at it's winter meeting, had an invocation by the Imam, Husham Al-Husainy.

A question from the NYT interview with Ayaan Hirsi Ali Feb 4, 2007
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/04/weekinreview/04goodstein.html?_r=2&adxnnl=1&oref=slogin&adxnnlx=1170631102-uruGbX74+0GoEQ52/uDS1Q
Q. Have you seen any ideology coming from within Islam that gives young Muslims a sense of purpose without the overlay of militancy?
Her answer is very important because it shows how impotent "moderates" can be. Essentially, she said "They have no alternative message" and that the jihadis come to the dabate armed with the Koran and quotes from the Hadith and the Sunnah, and the traditions of the prophet; the jihadis win.

She will defy rather than submit, an attitude all of us need to have.

Other Comments by MelM

5. Comment #20591 by DavidJGrossman on February 4, 2007 at 4:22 pm

 avatar"Also - what's wrong with Islamophobia? Islam seems, to me, to be a religion worth being quite very phobic about."

You betcha. I generally steer clear of saying anything against Islam out of fear for my life. I have a lot of respect for people who will risk their safety to criticize the "Religion of Peace". They have more guts than I do.

- Dave

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6. Comment #20600 by Dutch_labrat on February 5, 2007 at 12:16 am

 avatarI can't help feeling very ambivalent towards this woman. Being Dutch I watched this story unfold and there are a few things that I want clarified.


First of all there is the fact, the true, confirmed in court, admitted by her, fact that she comitted fraud when she applied for Dutch citizenship. I am not sure how things would have played had she pulled that stunt off in the USA but I doubt the result would have been that different.

Then there is her chosen political affiliation. It is said in this piece she was with a liberal party. In truth the VVD is a right wing conversative patry. They are liberal only about economical issues. This party is of the main stream parties here the most opposed to immigration and immigrants.

She is right about many, many things and as such, and because of her background, she is a very important voice in the liberation of muslims, male or female. Because of her political choices, and the way she expresses herself she managed to alienate herself from those she purports to help. This is why she achieved so little here.

Her choice to work with Theo van Gogh fits right in with this. This man was also right about many things but his lifelong hobby of making enemies only made serious dialogue impossible. When he called muslims Geitenneukers (goatfuckers) he slammed the door shut not only to muslims but to anyone not wanting to be associated with such a foul-mouthed hate mongerer.

Her fleeing to america has as much to do with the real danger she was in as with her self-created isolation here.

As such I don't see Hirshi Ali as a proper figure head in the battle against the Islam. I can't take her serious, she is behaving more like a 4-your old throwing a tantrum then like an intelligent adult (she is that too) arguing a case.

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7. Comment #20602 by peeter on February 5, 2007 at 1:52 am

Another take on Hirsi Ali and her politics here:
http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2007/02/the_definition_of_contempt.html

Islamophobia, judeophobia, christianophobia, etc are all recourses of small-minded people who can't understand that one single religion isn't the problem - religion is.

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8. Comment #20605 by Pantore on February 5, 2007 at 2:43 am

 avatarThe joke is she fled to a country that's ruled by the christian taliban, how ironic.

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9. Comment #20610 by linck on February 5, 2007 at 4:52 am

 avatarIt is a shame - not only in the Netherlands but probably in all countries - that forced marriages are not seen as a reason to claim protection.


"Arranged marriage" is a nice euphemism for "lifetime of rape".
And the most glorious thing is that the victim has to be happy and grateful about it!

Why are people so biased about this? As if marriage is a great magic wand that turns what is normally a crime - rape - into a wonderful thing.
The holy books make that very clear by "punishing" a rapist of a virgin by forcing him to marry her.


Hmm, could a suiter that was rejected use this rule to get the girl of his desire anyway?

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10. Comment #20612 by Dutch_labrat on February 5, 2007 at 5:08 am

 avatar"It is a shame - not only in the Netherlands but probably in all countries - that forced marriages are not seen as a reason to claim protection.
"

A very valid point. The problem here is that the marriage had not happened yet, it was prior to the fact. Combined with the fact that she was moving to Canada, a country with proper laws that would protect her made things difficult. Of course, at time Hirshi Ali could not be expected to know all this.

Since forced sex within marriage is considered rape in most western countries, and a forced marriage could of course be anulled there were ways out, but how many women know/realize this? Education of women is still the best way to fight this problem.

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11. Comment #20615 by denoir on February 5, 2007 at 5:34 am

 avatarWhat is very sad in Europe and exemplified by the Dutch is that the mainstream parties are so terrified to deal with integration that it is left to right-wing extremists. People are so afraid of being perceived as racists that the topics of immigration, integration and multiculturalism are taboo.

It can't work that way. If we extend our tolerance to intolerance (because the holy principle of cultural relativism) we're toast. It's not a stable strategy. And as the sensible politicians are not willing to deal with it, the right wing extremist nut cases fill the gap. I do not consider Hirshi Ali to be one, but she has clearly sought allies in that corner - as it has been the only way to express herself in a political context.

While I'm not a too big fan of her political polemics she has impressed me enough times with really sharp observations not to entirely dismiss her. While her associations have been unfortunate (with VVD and Theo van Gogh), I do think she makes a number of valid points, especially about the weaknesses of European liberalism.

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12. Comment #20616 by Linda on February 5, 2007 at 5:50 am

NYT:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/04/weekinreview/04goodstein.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

It's really tragic that seemingly female Muslim women who post on the GU despise AHA:

http://talk.guardian.co.uk/WebX?13@858.IECQaqayUkh.0@.775e6b1b/385

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13. Comment #20621 by SMART on February 5, 2007 at 6:14 am

Hirsi Ali. What a brave woman. She is a shining light that exposes the hypocricy and evil of Islam.. and by inference... all religion. Our world needs a lot more like her!

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14. Comment #20622 by ksskidude on February 5, 2007 at 6:55 am

 avatarWow, what is going on with our world! It saddens me that that the human race is still so behind when it comes to the evolution of the mind. How sad that a women who is just speaking her mind and telling what she endured, has to fear for her life. If there are any Muslims on this forum, what say you? What is your religions problem?

Its time to let go of your superstitious beliefs, or at the very least, keep it to yourselves. If what you say is the truth, we infidels will surley suffer in the next life. But since you can not even come close to proving what you say to be true, SHUT THE HELL UP!!!!!!!!!!

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15. Comment #20623 by Linda on February 5, 2007 at 7:00 am

For those who are brave enough listen to AHA's description of her personal experience of being circumcised at the age of 5 -- the truly creepy bit is about the man cutting off the threads used to sew up the the clitoris with his teeth:

You can listen again here: 1 Feb 2007: Ayaan Hirsi Ali

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/womanshour/01/2007_05_fri.shtml

What exactly is going on when a man gets his nose and mouth so close to a child's vagina?

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16. Comment #20631 by nine9s on February 5, 2007 at 9:01 am

In truth the VVD is a right wing conversative patry. They are liberal only about economical issues. This party is of the main stream parties here the most opposed to immigration and immigrants.
I went to the VVD article on Wikipedia and it didn't seem to be all that unusual. Could you elaborate on the VVD and what makes it objectionable? Do they totally oppose immigration, or do they support limits on certain countries? I'd like to learn more about it, and by extension, more about the Dutch and their political views.

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17. Comment #20632 by nine9s on February 5, 2007 at 9:04 am

...[T]he truly creepy bit is about the man cutting off the threads used to sew up the the clitoris with his teeth...What exactly is going on when a man gets his nose and mouth so close to a child's vagina?
Yechhh. It's not like they don't have cutting implements available -- otherwise what did they cut out the clitoris with? And is it a man who's doing the cutting and sewing? Getting his fingers up in a little girl's genitals? Friggin christ.

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18. Comment #20634 by Vince Di Placido on February 5, 2007 at 9:28 am

Did any of you see Ayaan Hirsi Ali's interview on Sky news a few days ago? I was very impressed with her!

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19. Comment #20637 by FitzChivalry on February 5, 2007 at 10:13 am

I think words like islamophobic, christianophobic, etc. are used out of context. A phobia is an irrational fear; I certainly feel that fear of religeous extremists is justified. If you are of the opinion that their practices are abhorrent, you should not be labeled as a phobic.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali has been one of the few people with enough guts to stand up and criticise Islam. It is terrible that the price for expressing her opinions is a life spent in hiding under armed guard.

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20. Comment #20662 by melisande on February 5, 2007 at 3:31 pm

 avatarI have been doing a lot of research on her and have gotten opinions from a couple of people I hold in very high regard who feel exactly opposite about her politics.
It's just hurting my brain at this point to figure out where I stand. I think there is this issue about immigration and islam that is much more prominent in Europe right now than it is here. Although here she is working for AEI.
The issue is much more complicated than it looks at first. I don't deny that this woman has gone through a lot of pain (although she downplays it) and absolutely should not be in fear of her life for speaking out against Islam.
However, now she's the darling of the right wing and I don't like their policies at all.
So it leaves me somewhere in the middle.

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21. Comment #20671 by Russell Blackford on February 5, 2007 at 4:23 pm

As I said on another thread, I'll cut her some slack. I like to think that she's a good Enlightenment liberal (i.e. a rigorous, comprehensive liberal thinker whose worldview necessitates hostility to religion ... not an adherent of the kind of wishy-washy liberalism we see these days, largely developed by the late John Rawls, whose work is very deferential to religion).

If that's the case, she may find it difficult to find allies with whom she is fully comfortable. As I say every chance I get, the world needs more Enlightenment liberals.

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22. Comment #20686 by Dax on February 5, 2007 at 6:39 pm

 avatarAs a Dutch citizen, living in the US, I would like to add my 2 cents.

Ayaan is a perfect example of how the Dutch ruin themselves by being politically correct. The entire issue with her refugee status and citizenship has been initiated to get rid of her, a female apostate with a powerful voice. It is not surprising, seeing how the Dutch pampers Muslims out of fear. We even send health care professionals and case workers to Morocco every summer to support Dutch Moroccans with psychological disorders during their vacation in their motherland. Yes, the same country who did nothing -- not even keeping lists of survivors -- for native Dutchmen living in the area devastated by hurricane Katrina.

Dutch Liberalism, like in most countries these days, shows no realism and this is the reason why outspoken liberals like Ayaan are now working at crackpot institutes such as the American Enterprise Institute. The conservative, Christian Right are the only ones willing to listen to the thread that Islam could pose.

Ayaan had a relationship with Dutch philosopher Herman Phillipse, author of "The Atheist Manifest" (Het Atheistisch Manifest), a book I hope will one day be translated into English for it is a great work on atheist morality.

We need more people like Ayaan and we do not want to loose them to right winged institutes in bed with the Bush administration.

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23. Comment #20693 by MelM on February 5, 2007 at 9:00 pm

Is Ayaan an atheist?

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24. Comment #20695 by Russell Blackford on February 5, 2007 at 10:21 pm

^Yes, she is.

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25. Comment #20703 by melisande on February 6, 2007 at 2:47 am

 avatarA thought occurred to me that though she seems very well spoken and out spoken and knows exactly what she wants to say, she might not exactly know what she's doing.
I don't mean that in an ignorant way, but at least from an American POV we are used to Politicians in politics and they have been grooming and training for years usually before they even reach a point of notoriety. We expect them, really, to at least have some kind of undercover agenda or that they are angling in some way or another for something that they're leaving obscured.
They're players.
You know, it could be she came out of this situation, made some decisions, started speaking out, and going headlong into this controversy without the tactical regard that we usually expect of politicians and their ilk.

It's interesting also to hear from Dax about the Dutch pampering Muslims, because I just heard something completely different from another person about using their progressive views to push forward an agenda against muslims and immigrants in general:
"Like Pym Fortuyn saying 'we have to clamp down on immigrants because they're not pro-gay rights.' "

So it's one politically correct and progressive movement "gay rights" being used to negate another... "multiculturalism" I suppose you'd call it....

everything about this is very messy.

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26. Comment #20704 by Old Coppernose on February 6, 2007 at 3:59 am

#20631 by nine9s on February 5, 2007 at 9:01 am

I went to the VVD article on Wikipedia and it didn't seem to be all that unusual. Could you elaborate on the VVD and what makes it objectionable? Do they totally oppose immigration, or do they support limits on certain countries? I'd like to learn more about it, and by extension, more about the Dutch and their political views.


Yeah if the worst thing you can say about the VVD is that they oppose immigration, they are the perfect party, imo. Huge numbers of would-be immigrants are Muslims who would like nothing more than to Islamicise Europe and the world. Gay activists who oppose immigration on that basis arent making excuses for xenophobia - they have a legitimate desire to preserve thir hard won freedoms. Even if Muslim immigrants are mostly moderate (and as we see over and over again, supposedly moderate Muslims are often appallingly extreme by liberal standards) then they provide a fertile soil for the extremists to seed their fascism.

America is not ruled by the "Xian Taliban" - they are a faction, albeit a major one, and look likely to lose a lot of ground in coming elections, not least the Presidency. Nor are they in fact as fascistic as the Islamists. Say "Islam is a violent religion" and they may respond by killing you. So long as I dont perform abortions, from the Xtaliban I am safe.

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27. Comment #20707 by Old Coppernose on February 6, 2007 at 4:14 am

Something I forgot to mention is however tolerant Westerners might be to immigrant cultures, there is as well the problem of their not being tolerant to each others. IIRC Mounted Police were first deployed at Speakers Corner to control fights between Sunni and Shiia Muslims. Ancient conflicts from all over the world get imported into the West creating mayhem. Sikh demonstrators close down a play written by a woman of Sikh origin. Finally we have the likes of Rushdie, who attack our society continually, until offending their culture of origin - Islam in his case, and then need our society to protect them - before finally wussing out by converting back to it.

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28. Comment #20714 by Russell Blackford on February 6, 2007 at 6:04 am

^A bit unfair to Salman Rushdie, methinks.

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29. Comment #20776 by troodon on February 6, 2007 at 12:37 pm

BBC Hardtalk just had a half hour interview with her. I just watched it on TV, but can't get the internet link to work. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/hardtalk/6335401.stm

She comes across as intelligent, focused and well spoken. Unfortunately the Hardtalk interviewer, Stephen Sackur, seemed to spend almost the entire interview on the attack. He went after her to defend her uncompromising attitude, her political affiliation with the VVD, her lies to gain immigration status in the Netherlands etc. I got sick of hearing him say things like, "Don't you feel guilty about...." I wanted to hear more from her about her vision for the world and strategies for achieving integration and peace.

She addressed Sackur's repetitive questioning candidly and with confidence - a direct, no b.s. style.

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30. Comment #21369 by fotomatt on February 9, 2007 at 12:10 am

 avatar
Old Coppernose stated:
...we have the likes of Rushdie, who attack our society continually, until offending their culture of origin - Islam in his case, and then need our society to protect them - before finally wussing out by converting back to it.


More that just "a bit unfair," Old Coppernose seems a bit outdated, too.

During the height of the Muslim psychotic frenzy against Rushdie and his book, The Satanic Verses, bookshops were being firebombed and a number of people associated with the book were attacked, seriously injured, and/or killed. Rushdie may have reasonably believed that his public appeasement of the fanatics would serve to save the lives of innocent people. Whether or not you agree with his decision, it's understandable why he might have done it.

Regardless, Rushdie himself regretted the decision and "recanted a short time later describing it as the "biggest mistake of my life" in an interview he gave to Anne McElvoy of The Times published on August 26, 1995.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rushdie#The_Satanic_Verses_controversy

Since that time -- as he was prior -- Rushdie has been avowedly secular and a self-described atheist. He expressly described himself as an atheist in an interview with Bill Moyers in June, 2006.

He is also a Distinguished Supporter of the British Humanist Association.

He has also been outspoken in defense of free speech and has publicly opposed governmental efforts to restrict religious and/or racial "hate speech."

And although the fatwa against his life is still in full effect (reaffirmed by the Iranian Ayatollah in 2005) he speaks out against the wearing of the veil and the general oppression of women within Islam.

So whatever mistake he made, I think Rushdie deserves our utmost support and respect.

Sorry for perpetuating this tangent... let's get back to discussing Ayaan Hirsi Ali... such as, Why it's so frustrating that she's affiliated herself with the corporate fundamentalists at AEI.

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31. Comment #21371 by Russell Blackford on February 9, 2007 at 12:30 am

^Yup, Rushdie is definitely one of the good guys. What fotomatt said.

Has Hirsi Ali addressed anywhere the fact that she is affiliated with a bunch who would not seem to be her natural allies? I'm not wanting to be overly critical about it, just wondering.

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32. Comment #21424 by Amyers on February 9, 2007 at 6:39 am

An interesting article. Someone like Ayaan Hirsi Ali certainly needs the support of all Western secularists. If only there were more like her.

As is so typical, however, Anthony of the Observer only picks up on female genital mutilation without giving any regard to male genital mutilation (euphemistically called circumcision), of which Hirsi Ali is also a critic. She has been one of a few in the West to want the practice banned, which has long been a sacred rite of Judaism and Islam. Presumably others do not criticise it for fear of confronting these two influential religions.

Anyway, I thought Anthony should have mentioned her views on male circumcision as well.

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