Sunday, April 15, 2007 | Reason : In the News | print version

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Kadra attacked in public

by Aftenposten Norway

Reposted from:
http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article1734869.ece

Norwegian-Somalian Kadra, who became famous in Norway for exposing imam support of female circumcision, was beaten unconscious on Thursday.

Kadra was attacked and beaten senseless by seven or eight persons of Somali origin, newspaper VG reports.

"I was terrified. While I lay on the pavement they kicked me and screamed that I had trampled on the Koran. Several shouted Allah-o-akbar (God is great) and also recited from the Koran," Kadra told VG.

Kadra linked the attack to recent remarks in VG where she said that the Koran's views on women needed to be reinterpreted.

Kadra said that the gang of Somali men attacked her around 3 a.m. in downtown Oslo on Thursday. A medical examination found that she had several broken ribs, NRK (Norwegian Broadcasting) reports. Kadra filed charges and was due to speak with police on Friday.

The Islamic Council Norway (IRN) condemned the attack on Kadra and urged that she pursue the matter with police.

"Behavior where one goes to physical attack on someone you disagree with violates Islamic teaching and the prophet Muhammad's sunnah (lifestyle). We strongly object to such behavior," the IRN said in a press release.

Kadra's role in a 2000 hidden camera TV documentary revealing the positive attitude of Muslim leaders to female circumcision had a massive impact on Norway, and sparked new legislation.

Posted: Sunday, April 15, 2007 | Permalink

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1. Comment #32023 by padster1976 on April 15, 2007 at 9:16 am

Vile and disgusting.

No wonder I keep 'forgetting' that islam is a religion of 'peace'.

Other Comments by padster1976

2. Comment #32026 by hightrekker on April 15, 2007 at 9:26 am

Vile and disgusting, and if I hear one more post modernist relativist mumble and shout about the equality of culture, I'll puke.
Genital mutilation is horrific, no matter what a group of barbaric primitives fearing the power of women and sexuality think.

Other Comments by hightrekker

3. Comment #32027 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 15, 2007 at 9:33 am

They need to find these guys and expel them from Norway and send them back to Somalia. If they want to live in the stone age, let them actually do it:-(

Other Comments by briancoughlanworldcitizen

4. Comment #32029 by Yorker on April 15, 2007 at 9:59 am

The subjugation of women is one of the best indicators that religion is an invention of man.

Barbaric scum like these men should be cast out from society, dump them on an island somewhere, preferably a hot one with no natural resources. TV companies could make a dumb-ass reality show of it - viewers could vote on how long Allah would take to put them out of their misery.

Other Comments by Yorker

5. Comment #32030 by NJS on April 15, 2007 at 10:00 am

In defence of the abhorrent practice of female circumcision, the old "cultural respect" card is always played. I see no difference between this and cannibalism which went "undefended".

I'd stop all aid and all business with any country that allows it but hey, I have principles.

Of course the beating is another fine example of the religion of peace's cowardly view and treatment of women. Whats the point of the spokesman urging police action when they will claim religious defence of their action?

Other Comments by NJS

6. Comment #32034 by WalkingARazor on April 15, 2007 at 10:09 am

Wow, in one of the most secular countries in the world.....

Other Comments by WalkingARazor

7. Comment #32035 by Luthien on April 15, 2007 at 10:15 am

We need to give women like this more support, and make sure that all refugees receive a proper education. Ayan Hirsi Ali is right to advocate the support of women who are being "imported" and then kept in their Husband's / father's household. There are too many western countries turning a blind eye to these horrors, when intervention in urgently needed. There should be teams of social workers dedicated to investigating this, and making sure that women know their rights.

Other Comments by Luthien

8. Comment #32037 by Logicel on April 15, 2007 at 10:20 am

"...by seven or eight persons of Somali origin,..."
______

At first I wondered why comments were focusing on the attackers as being male. Then I saw the below quote:

"...the gang of Somali men attacked her around 3 a.m..."

Kadra, like any person confronting potentially lethal opponents, takes my breath away.

Her attackers must be found and punished. And Kadra needs to be protected from any future brutality. These fanatics are such desperate, pathetic fools. They are providing the best ammunition with which atheists can fight them.

Other Comments by Logicel

9. Comment #32041 by fallenone on April 15, 2007 at 10:25 am

Vile and disgusting.

Couldn't agree more. There's the plain contradiction between the statement of IRN and the actions of the attackers. What do they think they're doing? Reasonably speaking, they're standing up for a 7th century paternal belief system by violating the very rules of that system. Just another example of cherry-picking or turning a blind-eye to push an agenda that fits one's own end.

Other Comments by fallenone

10. Comment #32042 by Rtambree on April 15, 2007 at 10:26 am

Civics exams for immigrants? Passing a test in basic human rights before a visa is granted? Not sure how effective this would be.

Other Comments by Rtambree

11. Comment #32043 by William on April 15, 2007 at 10:27 am

"'Behavior where one goes to physical attack on someone you disagree with violates Islamic teaching and the prophet Muhammad's sunnah (lifestyle). We strongly object to such behavior,"' the IRN said in a press release."

Who gives a fuck if it violates the IRN's particular interpretation of "Islamic teaching"? More importantly, it violates the laws of modern civilization, not to mention basic human decency! Fuck Islamic teaching, and fuck Muhammad's "lifestyle."

Other Comments by William

12. Comment #32044 by justme on April 15, 2007 at 10:27 am

I've visited Oslo for months at a time on business. Oslo is a comfortable, welcoming city with a hometown-feel. It really doesn't feel like a national capital since it is nice and refined but not at all pretentious even in the core of the city.

Norwegians in general are even tempered and very easy to talk with. When I was there, they were never rude when sober, and rarely rude when not sober!

This attack is probably quite a shock to those in Oslo.

Any Norwegians around here?

Other Comments by justme

13. Comment #32045 by Mikado on April 15, 2007 at 10:30 am

Comment #32034 by WalkingARazor

Wow, in one of the most secular countries in the world.....

Not more secular than that the state church has tried to reinstated my family as members several times.

Apparently there also was women in the attacking group.

And I agree with Luthien women like Kadra need our support.

Other Comments by Mikado

14. Comment #32046 by Jimill on April 15, 2007 at 10:34 am

This incident should definately be classified a hate crime. If it were done to an Islamist by a Christian, or, specially, to a Jew, it would instantly be seen as one. Somethings gotta give!

Other Comments by Jimill

15. Comment #32047 by Mikado on April 15, 2007 at 10:35 am

Any Norwegians around here?

Yes, and I passed a Somali "cultural center" on my way to have a haircut on Friday.

Other Comments by Mikado

16. Comment #32049 by RickM on April 15, 2007 at 10:45 am

"The Islamic Council Norway (IRN) condemned the attack...". Doublespeak!

A some point, people are going to start killing these bastards.

Other Comments by RickM

17. Comment #32051 by RascoHeldall on April 15, 2007 at 10:50 am

What will be the straw that breaks the camel's back?

How many more incidents of sub-chimpanzeean barbarism must the civilised world take before it starts to realise that unquestioning tolerance of this disgusting doctrine simply isn't working?

Other Comments by RascoHeldall

18. Comment #32053 by Ole on April 15, 2007 at 11:03 am

Kadra is a brave woman.

As mentioned in the article, she showed for all of us in Norway that some imams practice "double speak".

Officially when asked by TV, the imams condemned circumcision. When she went in with a hidden camera and asked them, they adviced her to be circumcized.

It will be interesting to see if we will have a serious discussion here in Norway now.

Ole

Other Comments by Ole

19. Comment #32055 by savroD on April 15, 2007 at 11:09 am

Support? You say this person should be supported? I believe that this is vastly understating the case. This too proves how guilty the moderates are in supportimg hatred. If they were truly moderate, this persons face would be glued to the television screens of ALL THE WORLD! There would immediately be discussion groups set-up world wide to discuss this intolerance. The reason this doesn't happen? Those lilly-livered scum in the middle! Pardon my intolerance of the willfully ignorant.

Other Comments by savroD

20. Comment #32061 by Friend Giskard on April 15, 2007 at 12:04 pm

Behavior where one goes to physical attack on someone you disagree with violates Islamic teaching and the prophet Muhammad's sunnah (lifestyle).

This is a lie. This is the exact opposite of the truth. If the attackers had followed the example of Muhammad they would have killed her.

Other Comments by Friend Giskard

21. Comment #32077 by ksskidude on April 15, 2007 at 1:39 pm

I am so tired of reading about Muslim thugs beating up someone who disagree's with thier VIOLENT religion. If there are any Muslims on this site, please tell me how the Islam Faith is not VIOLENT? Please!

But then again, I am not surprised either by the actions of idiots.

Other Comments by ksskidude

22. Comment #32080 by justme on April 15, 2007 at 1:52 pm

Mikado: "Yes, and I passed a Somali "cultural center" on my way to have a haircut on Friday."

In Oslo, is this story a big deal or did it get little interest/concern?

(PS, I too got my hair cut the other day. How do you like my new photo? Hopefully, they didn't take too much off. I like to keep a full head of hair.)

Other Comments by justme

23. Comment #32081 by Mikado on April 15, 2007 at 2:07 pm

Comment #32080 by justme
From what I have seen on the net, the newspapers seems very interested. The latest development is that Kadra seems to have identified some of her assailants from surveillance cameras in the area. As for TV news I can not say as I do not watch news on TV.
(My hair was beginning to look like yours, I like to have some control over it.)

Other Comments by Mikado

24. Comment #32086 by Patrick McArdle on April 15, 2007 at 2:20 pm

The mutilation sometimes called "female circumcision" is called "female genital mutilation" here in the States. About a dozen years ago, we noticed that certain immigrant communities were practicing it, and we banned it. We ignored any attempts at 'cultural understanding', since child abuse has no excuses. As I recall, it was more of a sub-Saharan practice than a Muslim one, although of course many Muslims come from sub-Saharan countries. Once something becomes 'sanctified', then it has many irrational defenders. I hope Kadra's assailants are all identified, and punished to the fullest extent of Norwegian and EU law.

Other Comments by Patrick McArdle

25. Comment #32097 by Spinoza on April 15, 2007 at 4:13 pm

What about clit rings? Heeheehee...

Other Comments by Spinoza

26. Comment #32103 by Adrian on April 15, 2007 at 5:29 pm

Blaming these Somalians (who, I presume are not anymore, but are Norwegians) for what they did is like blaming a pitbull for attacking a child. It's not their fault for they are bred that way or, for 'bred' read 'indoctrinated'.
It's the indoctrinators who need to be ideologically castrated.

Other Comments by Adrian

27. Comment #32111 by Jessie on April 15, 2007 at 7:40 pm

Vile and disgusting, and if I hear one more post modernist relativist mumble and shout about the equality of culture, I'll puke.
Genital mutilation is horrific, no matter what a group of barbaric primitives fearing the power of women and sexuality think.

About six years ago, I took a course called "Anthropology of Gender," and the topic of female genital mutilation came up. I was quite stunned to hear otherwise rational people actually defend this practise because we in the West apparently have no right to condemn other cultures. Frankly, if the other cultures think that torturing children is alright, then, yes, we have every right to speak out against it. Female circumcision is morally indefensible. It's a barbaric, vile, disgusting practise that does not have to exist.

Other Comments by Jessie

28. Comment #32114 by Tridhos on April 15, 2007 at 7:51 pm

I am sure that any moment now there will be world wide demonstrations with Muslims condemning this outrage; well perhaps we had better not hold our breath in anticipation.

Other Comments by Tridhos

29. Comment #32117 by GodlessHeathen on April 15, 2007 at 8:04 pm

Were I to beat an Imam who'd spoken out against my beliefs (or lack of) no moderate would hesitate to call me vile or my actions disgusting.

The postmodernist idea that we've no right to be critical of other cultures has only generated a repugnant double standard.

Other Comments by GodlessHeathen

30. Comment #32152 by dancingthemantaray on April 16, 2007 at 2:14 am

"where one goes to physical attack on someone you disagree with violates Islamic teaching and the prophet Muhammad's sunnah (lifestyle)"

Is this the same Muhammad that invented Islam and then went on a lifelong conquering spree?

Other Comments by dancingthemantaray

31. Comment #32163 by justme on April 16, 2007 at 3:25 am

Jessie: "Female circumcision is morally indefensible. It's a barbaric, vile, disgusting practise that does not have to exist."

While not as barbaric as female circumcision, the same could be said of male circumcision.

Other Comments by justme

32. Comment #32179 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 16, 2007 at 5:28 am

The postmodernist idea that we've no right to be critical of other cultures has only generated a repugnant double standard.

As a sometime embracer of this idea, I have to agree. Some ground rules simply cannot be up for "negotiation".

The mutilation of children, and the terrifying them with mythical horror stories claimed to be real has got stop.

As far as I'm concerned you can immolate yourself for Allah, chop of your genetalia for Jesus and barbecue your balls for Jehovah. If you want to martyr yourself, go for it, but we can't simply stand by and allow some delusional halfwit to martyr their children. This has got to be where we draw the line.

Other Comments by briancoughlanworldcitizen

33. Comment #32187 by JesperB on April 16, 2007 at 5:48 am

This is another example of the fantasy that Islam is a religion of peace, hijacked by a few extremists.

It that were true, hundreds of thousands of "real" Muslims would now be crowding the streets of Oslo (and Copenhagen and Stockholm etc.) protesting against these thugs.

After all, an event like this, if it was indeed against Islam, would be a much bigger insult to the "true believers" than, say, 12 cartoons in an obscure danish newspaper.

Millions of people in the street over drawings - no noteworthy reaction over a case of clear-cut hate violence. Tells it all, really.

Other Comments by JesperB

34. Comment #32190 by nancy2001 on April 16, 2007 at 5:53 am

Any time you mix Islam and cultural relativism you end up with a toxic brew.

Other Comments by nancy2001

35. Comment #32209 by BigJohn on April 16, 2007 at 7:33 am

justme: "While not as barbaric as female circumcision, the same could be said of male circumcision."

Hear, hear! Circumcision of children is child abuse regardless of gender. It is a religious crime perpetrated for no scientific medical reason. Any thinking person who permits their child to be circumcised should be filled with shame.

Other Comments by BigJohn

36. Comment #32215 by Sam on April 16, 2007 at 7:53 am

Ole, i wish this would lead to a serious discussion, but considering what happened after her exposal of the Imams (basically nothing), i for one am not optimistic..
http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/article268755.ece
Makes you ashamed to be a norwegian..

And bear in mind that the people behind this are very likely to be the kind of people who want to make criticism of Islam (a.k.a. "islamophobia") a "hate crime".

Other Comments by Sam

37. Comment #32222 by Logicel on April 16, 2007 at 8:28 am

the fight against sexual mutilation:

http://www.montagunocircpetition.org/

Other Comments by Logicel

38. Comment #32229 by minstrel on April 16, 2007 at 8:40 am

justme said: "...the same could be said of male circumcision."
BigJohn said: "It is a religious crime perpetrated for no scientific medical reason."

Would you be surprised to know that 5000 years after it was first practised, male circumcision has only recently been shown to decrease transmission of HIV by ~50%?
I'm certainly not advocating female genital mutilation (I love female genitalia way too much for that!), but when denouncing gods or religions, we should take care not to toss the baby along with the bathwater. We may very well have adopted customs and rituals perpetuated by religion that conferred significant selection advantages without knowing it! Who knows what STDs are less transmissible thanks to circumcised penises? Who knows what other customs may confer selection advantages that we haven't yet realized?

Other Comments by minstrel

39. Comment #32233 by Lord Asriel on April 16, 2007 at 9:05 am

Many things have been said in other threads already and I am not going to warm the arguments up (FGM is not a typically Islamic tradition; Islam is not naturally more prone to be violent; Cultural relativism is not a black and white question but gradual and therefore you can favour it but oppose FGM at the same time; etc.).

If the best people can come up with in response to such an article is 'civic exams for immigrants' I think this is sad. If I want to discuss immigration I can go somewhere else (btw I am convinced that most of my compatriots would fail such an exam). This site is according to my understanding about reasoned arguments on religion and faith and not an anti-immigration platform. In general posters in this thread seem simply to be picking on a common enemy and not really making arguments.

I see more and more a 'with us or against us' mentality which does not belong into a 'Clear thinking Oasis'. It is a pity because there were often very thoughtful, sophisticated and good comments on this site. I am sure those people are still around. Unfortunately not in this thread.

LA

P.S.: Of course what happened is disgusting and abhorrent. I don't think anyone here questions that.

Other Comments by Lord Asriel

40. Comment #32235 by Ole on April 16, 2007 at 9:36 am

Sam, I do not consider myself a "Norwegian" in regards to this case. Like Kadra, Shabana Rema and many, many others, I think we are world citizens. We can think for ourselves. It has nothing to do with coming from Somalia or Norway, etc.

I agree with another poster here. The attackers alone are not the only ones to blaim. Also the imams and leaders from the muslim community must take their part of this stupid situation.

Here is a quote from what the leader for islamic council in Trondheim, Mohammed Jowari, earlier Somalian minister has to say:(my translation)

She (Kadra) has the right to say what ever she want to say, but she must take responsibility when she offend islam and the Koran. Islam is not one, but 1,8 billion believers.
She must understand that she can not continue to offend a religion.

Ole

Other Comments by Ole

41. Comment #32238 by Lord Asriel on April 16, 2007 at 10:24 am

I think we are world citizens. We can think for ourselves. It has nothing to do with coming from Somalia or Norway, etc.

Thanks Ole :-)

Other Comments by Lord Asriel

42. Comment #32239 by Logicel on April 16, 2007 at 10:29 am

Perhaps, I am being naive, but what I get from the posts in this thread, is that female sexual mutilation including infibulation is wrong, whether it is done by immigrants in their adopted countries, or by natives in their own. I got a sense of world citizenship very strongly in this thread, but then again, I have been reading and posting for about 6 months, so perhaps I have a better edge in understanding posts written by frequent posters.

Other Comments by Logicel

43. Comment #32248 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 16, 2007 at 12:16 pm

Perhaps, I am being naive, but what I get from the posts in this thread, is that female sexual mutilation including infibulation is wrong, whether it is done by immigrants in their adopted countries, or by natives in their own.

I think that is spot on. I firmly believe in global laws for a global people, but tolerating sexual mutilation does not feature longterm in that vision:-(

I suppose in the short to medium term, we may be forced to accept it occuring in Somalia and similar stone age societies, but it should be ruthlessly rooted out in the developed world, and eventually everywhere.

Other Comments by briancoughlanworldcitizen

44. Comment #32250 by Benjamin Michael on April 16, 2007 at 12:22 pm

On the subject of violence, todays massacre in the US:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=3045574&page=1

I would be shocked if this does not have something to do with religion.

Other Comments by Benjamin Michael

45. Comment #32255 by Jessie on April 16, 2007 at 12:44 pm

Many things have been said in other threads already and I am not going to warm the arguments up (FGM is not a typically Islamic tradition; Islam is not naturally more prone to be violent; Cultural relativism is not a black and white question but gradual and therefore you can favour it but oppose FGM at the same time; etc.).

If the best people can come up with in response to such an article is 'civic exams for immigrants' I think this is sad. If I want to discuss immigration I can go somewhere else (btw I am convinced that most of my compatriots would fail such an exam). This site is according to my understanding about reasoned arguments on religion and faith and not an anti-immigration platform. In general posters in this thread seem simply to be picking on a common enemy and not really making arguments.

I see more and more a 'with us or against us' mentality which does not belong into a 'Clear thinking Oasis'. It is a pity because there were often very thoughtful, sophisticated and good comments on this site. I am sure those people are still around. Unfortunately not in this thread.

I for one realize that not all Muslims practise female genital mutilation, and that many non-Muslims - particularly in Africa - do.

But, I'm not really seeing why condemning FGM - which I do unequivocally - means one is anti-immigration. I'm not at all anti-immigration. However, there is not one single reason to tolerate FGM. Not one. And you know, the vast majority of immigrants don't partake in this practise.

A lot of girls die from infections brought on from FGM, it's horribly painful (I would call it a form of torture), it brings no health benefits, and it often leaves women unable to enjoy sex. Additionally, girls who've been subjected to it, even in cultures where it's very common, often wind up displaying very severe symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder. In its extreme forms, where the vagina is actually sewn up, FGM can make sex excrutiatingly painful the first time. So, are those arguements sophisticated enough for you?

It basically amounts to child torture in the name of "Tradition". There's no reason to practise it. In the case described above, the attackers apparently felt that there was a religious justification for the practise. That's just too bad for them. I hope they wind up in prison for what they've done, which is beat an innocent person to defend the torture of young girls.

Other Comments by Jessie

46. Comment #32256 by hanche on April 16, 2007 at 1:00 pm

For what it's worth, at least some of the thugs have been arrested, and yes, there is serious talk about expelling them.

As to the motivation for the attack, it is not at all clear that it has anything to do with support for female genital mutilation, though that is the topic that made Kadra famous some years ago. It is more likely related to her recent statement, alluded to on the top of this page, that "the Koran's views on women needed to be reinterpreted".

Not that this makes it any more acceptable, of course.

Other Comments by hanche

47. Comment #32257 by Logicel on April 16, 2007 at 1:07 pm

minstrel wrote: "I'm certainly not advocating female genital mutilation (I love female genitalia way too much for that!), but when denouncing gods or religions, we should take care not to toss the baby along with the bathwater. We may very well have adopted customs and rituals perpetuated by religion that conferred significant selection advantages without knowing it!"
________

Perhaps you are a woman, but I am guessing you are male. If so, women do not consider that the male love of their genitals should be the reason why they should not be sexually mutilated.

What is even more astonishing then the continuation of this health-diminishing, sexual-pleasure-negating acts, is that these barbaric practices have not decimated the female population, and not that they play some important advantages to the propagation of genes.

30 years ago, when I cataloged materials on female sexual mutilation at a NYC law library, I was shocked to find out that the majority of mutilations are done by women to women. And when asked some women why they mutilated other women, they replied that it was done to me, therefore other women need to have it done. Remember it was Ayaan Hirsi Ali's father that protected her from this brutal practice, and her grandmother who ensured that it got done in his absence.

Other Comments by Logicel

48. Comment #32259 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 16, 2007 at 1:12 pm

Remember it was Ayaan Hirsi Ali's father that protected her from this brutal practice, and her grandmother who ensured that it got done in his absence.

It's the same pathology with hazing. It was done to us, so I do it the next generation, and so the stupidity is perpetuated.

Other Comments by briancoughlanworldcitizen

49. Comment #32298 by Andreas on April 16, 2007 at 6:26 pm

Hi everyone! This is my first post here, but I have followed this site, the articles and the comments for quite some time now.

This attack was clearly a wake-up moment for the Norwegian "Islam is a peaceful religion"-society, especially when some Norwegian Muslim clerics said that "sure, Kadra is good-looking and has a nice body, but we cant't be listening to her" (or something similar to that, I don't have the exact quote here, but i think it was Bhasim Ghozlan who said it) and were wondering what she was doing out on the town at that time (3 o'clock in the morning). More evidence for the "peace-loving nature" of Norwegian Muslims can be found at www.islam.no (where mr. Ghozlan is quite present). But, of course, we now have a lot of people defending Islam by pretending that the attackers were not "real Muslims".

Part of the problem by criticizing Islam in Norway is that we have a state church with certain benefits (85% of the population are members, but only 20-25% are religious), which makes criticism look like cultural imperialism from "the Christian Norway". Also, some groups of Muslim immigrants (especially Pakistanis and Somalians) are not very well integrated in the society and live in some kind of ghettos, which makes the debate harder to run. However, I hope that we now can agree that certain aspects of Islam is intolerable and must be dealt with, "islamophobia" or not. I think we must support Kadra in her effort to liberalize Islam, and not do like the spokesman of the Oslo police departement, who said that she herself was partly to blame because she "put herself in the front of the public debate". (However, the police have installed security measures.)

Other Comments by Andreas

50. Comment #32364 by Logicel on April 17, 2007 at 12:27 am