1. Shaw TV Interview with Richard Dawkins

Comment #175464 by Elli on May 5, 2008 at 1:21 pm

I have interviewed numerous survivors of concentration camps. When I was in my final year of high school, there was a living historian program we undertook where we interviewed numerous holocaust survivors and documented the details of their testimony. According to ASM I take it they must have all been liars.

ASM is a prime example of how powerful brainwashing and indoctrination can be, even in spite of overwhelming readily available and contemporary evidence. Scary, to say the least.

I am a supporter of Palestinian statehood, and I am the daughter of Jewish Israelis. Suffice to say, I am thoroughly offended by ASM's ignorant and unintelligent remarks. What a fucktard.

2. Anti-Evolution Film Misappropriates the Holocaust

Comment #174363 by Elli on May 2, 2008 at 9:49 am

I find it fascinating how certain intellectuals can develop rabid fan bases... almost cult like in devotion. I don't really see that happening with Dawkins, although we often get accused of it by the shit-stirrers of the world. It also appears to most often involve intellectuals who go against the grain, and hold minority and almost rebellious positions. Chomsky is a genius, no doubt, but he sure does attract fanatical devotion. I can't decide if he is just a genius, or in fact an "evil-genius" !

3. Anti-Evolution Film Misappropriates the Holocaust

Comment #174049 by Elli on May 1, 2008 at 1:44 pm

Actually, a pro-semite. I was thinking though whether we would all define "talented" the same way. Athletically? hmmm, not so sure... maybe running: we have done a lot of that. Although my American friends always remind me of Sandy Koufax as an example of "yes, Jews can actually throw a ball".

4. Is religion a threat to rationality and science?

Comment #174045 by Elli on May 1, 2008 at 1:35 pm

I am very confused as to what Seeker is trying to prove here. Can someone point me to a post of his where he definitively states what his goal is here?

And to Seeker, it occurs to me that when you do nothing but try to look for ways to poke holes in well established knowledge then what you are doing is nothing more then intellectual vandalism. Why not try and augment the global database of knowledge by offering something new and of substance? If you feel you have better explanations then offer positive evidence... better still, as others have pointed out, publish your findings and if there is merit to them, await the congratulations of the scientific community. Until then, educate yourself properly and stop being a vandal.

5. How to reconcile Richard Dawkins?

Comment #173190 by Elli on April 30, 2008 at 1:47 pm

Al: "Make it economically viable or even profitable and people will fill the void quickly."

Agreed.

6. Bill Good Interviews Richard Dawkins

Comment #173162 by Elli on April 30, 2008 at 1:13 pm

Nice. 52 minutes of Dawk.
The lengthy periods of ads are annoying though.

7. How to reconcile Richard Dawkins?

Comment #173119 by Elli on April 30, 2008 at 11:42 am

On the issue of Hitler's religion, I watched a TV documentary a few days ago entitles "Hitler and the occult" or something like that. It went into great detail about the deep superstitious and religious influences on Hitler's life. It recounted the testimony of Hitler from his WWI days where he claimed to have had a near death experience where Hitler had heard what he considered the voice of god beckoning him to a different area of a bunker, and almost immediately the area where he had been seated was hit by a shell and the entire unit had been killed. This was supposedly the start of his notion that he was chosen by god to be Germany's messiah. The documentary proceeded to give a detailed account of his constant use of religion, and especially the occult, which was influential in his rise to power. He even possessed a mandrake root which was supposed to give him powers.

But one thing I found interesting that I had not considered before. The documentary raised the point that Himler was a devoutly religious man and obsessed with occult ideology, going to bizarre lengths to conduct ritual etc. Importantly it should be noted that Himler was very much the mastermind behind the holocaust and much of the ethnic cleansing dogma. For all the analysis that is given of Hitler's supposed rejection of religion, it should not be forgotten that without Himler the holocaust and it's atrocities may well have been very different. It is therefore not enough for the religious apologists to confine themselves to the investigation of Hitler's religiosity or lack thereof.

8. Anti-Evolution Film Misappropriates the Holocaust

Comment #173101 by Elli on April 30, 2008 at 10:41 am

Dan, Woody Allen is brilliant. A fucktard in his personal life, but a brilliant writer. Watching that 1 minute clip made me nod my head in it's familiarity and wisdom, and then almost wet myself in laughter --- hard to do evoke all those emotions at the same time... as I say - he is a brilliant writer. :-)

9. Anti-Evolution Film Misappropriates the Holocaust

Comment #173098 by Elli on April 30, 2008 at 10:34 am

Al, you made me have to go and look up a word!
I was not aware of any end-time doctrine at all in Judaism, although I may be mistaken. The messianic elements usually involve flying on the wings of doves to Jerusalem, the coming back to life of all Jews that have passed away, ushering in an era of peace in Israel... things of that nature. Shabbatai Zvi is a good historical reference but you needn't look that far back. Rabbi Menachem Schneerson of Brooklyn is regarded as the Messiah by the Chabad (Lubavitch) Jews of the world. He passed away in the 1990s, although the Chabad still hold strong to their 'theory' or should I say, 'conjecture'.

10. Anti-Evolution Film Misappropriates the Holocaust

Comment #173083 by Elli on April 30, 2008 at 10:16 am

I hate the term "self-hating jew". It is also completely inaccurate when it is most frequently used. If for example, I was to "hate" the practice of the Jewish religion, this would not make me someone that hates myself. It just makes me hate the practice of a religion that my parents happened to subscribe to at the time of my birth. It assumes that once born a Jew that the "essence" of Jewishness is somehow intrinsically bound to my personhood - and any expression by me of jewish culture in a negative way is somehow a negative expression of my own self worth. This is rubbish. But catchphrases have a nasty way of surviving despite their vacuousness.

11. Anti-Evolution Film Misappropriates the Holocaust

Comment #173079 by Elli on April 30, 2008 at 10:07 am

Al, you raise a very cogent point (in #173061). I think that has a lot to do with it - small numbers, oppressed minority, mixed into other cultures. Now that their are pockets of the world where these factors are not the case, we are seeing right-wing behaviour more closely aligned with what the other religious crazies do.

12. Anti-Evolution Film Misappropriates the Holocaust

Comment #173059 by Elli on April 30, 2008 at 9:33 am

Al, it is one of the true ironies of the world's history. How a people (and a religion) with such a nasty and hideous book as its guide, and with such (at times) fanatical adherence to ritual and custom even in the face of death, can also be a people who almost universally embrace critical thought, reason, art and science. I don't really have an explanation for this, other then the "spirit" of questioning everything that has been the Rabbinical/talmudic method throughout. It just goes to show how much of a difference something as simple as encouraging individual thought as opposed to groupthink can be. The other 2 major religions seem to foster the opposite: groupthink over individual thought - and the difference seems to be profound. Nonetheless, before I wax too lyrical about the virtues of Jewish thinkers, it is important to note that the Jews have had plenty of dangerously moronic twats also.

13. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #173056 by Elli on April 30, 2008 at 9:26 am

Genuine. I find it incredibly sad when reasonable people reject reason.

14. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #173052 by Elli on April 30, 2008 at 9:19 am

A single furtive tear descends down my cheek...

15. Anti-Evolution Film Misappropriates the Holocaust

Comment #173051 by Elli on April 30, 2008 at 9:15 am

25. Comment #172633 by 82abhilash on April 29, 2008 at 8:07 pm
I bet the people in the Anti-defamation League never expected to see the day when one of their own would stab them on the back.

16. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #171548 by Elli on April 28, 2008 at 2:52 pm

Something I meant to comment on earlier but forgot to...

Dick, you said that the webpage I linked did not quote sources. In fact, it quoted and referenced the bible. I am glad to see that you and I both agree that the bible is not a valid source.

And with that, I am off to bed... just one last look at Cartomancer's avatar for some sweet dreams...

17. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #171541 by Elli on April 28, 2008 at 2:46 pm

That's ok Dick. I have to go to bed soon anyhow. But do try and provide some thoughts on those 2 inconsistencies in the "yom=eon" interpretation I quoted. This forum has become a chopping board for theists that avoid answering the hard questions.

18. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #171530 by Elli on April 28, 2008 at 2:37 pm

Dick said: "As for the Jews they have a long history of interpreting the Torah and they are also trained in Biblical Hebrew."

Have you forgotten that I am a Jew who has been trained in biblical Hebrew, and spent 14 years interpreting the Torah on a daily basis?

You are always going to find a Rabbi who says that genesis was not 6 days but was 6 "eons" but if you take all the Rabbi's in the world and survey them, you will find only a tiny percentage will hold that the word "yom" meant something different in (and only in) those few initial chapters of genesis.

Anyway - you are consistently arguing with an "argument from authority" basis. Things are not true merely because someone says they are true.

What is your explanation for why the word "yom" can be interpreted as eon?

How do you reconcile the conflicts that this interpretation creates (I raised 2 very significant ones above)?

If you need to, feel free to go back to the person who told you that "yom" did not mean sunset-to-sunset and ask him/her to reconcile the conflict.

19. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #171496 by Elli on April 28, 2008 at 2:22 pm

Dick, atheism is nothing more then the proposition that god(s)=exist has not been proven, and until any evidence can be presented to the contrary, the assumption must remain god(s)<> exist. It makes no other claims, including not making any claims about the requisite thoroughness of research.

20. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #171484 by Elli on April 28, 2008 at 2:15 pm

Firstly, Dick - it was 600 thousand at Sinai, not 6 million. You are confusing the Holocaust.

Secondly, try positing a thought on the conflicts I raised. Use your own intellect - don't just defer to an argument from authority.

I was not posting that website as an example of a peer reviewed publication. I was being lazy and didn't want to write out some of the issues that are raised by the disingenuous misinterpretation of the word "yom". But I wrote out 2 of them anyway, above. How about addressing those ideas.

Of course it does not represent the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church. And why should it? - are you suggesting that whatever the RCC says must be truth purely on the basis that it is the RCC that is saying so? That sounds more like arrogance to me... don't you think?

21. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #171477 by Elli on April 28, 2008 at 2:09 pm

Ok Dick, then be sure to ask your Rabbi about the following:

If a day means more than 24-hour period, then how are we to interpret the following verses, as well as scores of others. "Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath.... in it thou shalt not work.... For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth...and rested the seventh day" (Ex. 20:9-11)

Adam was made on the sixth day (Gen. 1:26, 31), which was supposedly thousand of years long [Elli: millions?]. This was followed by the 7th day which was also thousands of years long [Elli: millions?]. Following the 7th day, Adam fell into sin and was expelled from the Garden. This would mean Adam lived thousands [Elli: millions?] of years, which is false, since he died at age 930 (Gen. 5:5).

22. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #171471 by Elli on April 28, 2008 at 2:02 pm

Dick, I don't claim to have a deep knowledge - just that I studied biblical Hebrew at school. In any event, I am suggesting that you don't take my word for it, and I suggest that you don't take a Rabbi's word for it. What I suggest you do is go and conduct proper scientific/academic research into the matter for yourself - or at the very least, read up on people who have done such research and produced legitimate publications, properly referenced and so forth.

Anyway, this webpage raises good refutation of the day=era concept:
http://members.aol.com/ckbloomfld/bepart16.html

23. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #171458 by Elli on April 28, 2008 at 1:53 pm

I second Quine. Nothing beats doing your own research. One should never use the argument from authority. "An important guy once told me that..." is just a really bad way to gain knowledge.

24. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #171440 by Elli on April 28, 2008 at 1:42 pm

Max, I do remember discussions at school about the usage of the word "elohim" which takes a plural form for god "el", but if my memory serves me correctly it is consistently not used in a plural context - or something like that. Anyway, errors in the bible are not exactly newsworthy discoveries, given their frequency. In regards to that particular verse "let us make man in our image" I believe the very next verse goes something like "and god made man in his image". Who knows, maybe god was using the "royal we"? - again, these pedantic textual issues are vastly overshadowed by the more glaring inaccuracies and immoral aspects of the bible.

25. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #171395 by Elli on April 28, 2008 at 1:21 pm

That's my point Dick: I have spoken to many a Rabbi about this. Only the least sophisticated run with an argument that "yom" in genesis meant something different to what it meant every other time the word was used. And they only use that argument with youngsters: it doesn't do much to solve the other gigantic scientific problems in the biblical genesis account.

Anyway, I thoroughly recommend not taking things as true because they are told to you by religious ministers. I recommend doing your own critical research into things. Not only will it bear more fruitful and accurate results but it is a very rewarding process.

26. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #171380 by Elli on April 28, 2008 at 1:13 pm

In any event, even if one was to accept (for the sake of argument alone) that "yom" in genesis actually meant "some enormous span of time" it still does little to make the genesis account much more credible or scientifically plausible. This argument is the sort of thing they teach you at pre-school when a kid questions genesis. Trust me, I went to a Jewish pre-school and can speak from actual experience on this. It is amongst the least sophisticated arguments imaginable.

Anyway, this reminds me of Ricky Gervais' reading of genesis - one of my favourite stand up bits of all time... "in the dark!" :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yixAOfyAXoY

27. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #171359 by Elli on April 28, 2008 at 12:59 pm

Dick, as it happens I am Jewish and a scholar of the Hebrew language (at least, I studied it for 14 years, including ancient Hebrew, although not at a University level). "Yom" does not mean era or age or stage. It means day. Sunset to sunset. It is used consistently in this context throughout all historical Hebrew documents.

In case you are wondering, my name is one of the great ironies about me, given I am an atheist. For those wondering, it means "my god".

28. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #171343 by Elli on April 28, 2008 at 12:50 pm

Whilst I do not personally respect any flag, nor do I see any reason to arbitrarily exalt symbols of any kind, I do recognize that many people do find certain symbols important to them, whether for rational reasons or otherwise, and I personally would respect that. For example, I wouldn't personally photograph myself in sexual congress with a baby jesus, nor would I photograph myself defecating on a photograph of Martin Luther King. I would consider that this would likely be very offensive to many people, and therefore not the kind of free speech I personally want to engage in. Although I hasten to add that I would most certainly fight with my life for the right of anyone to express themselves in such a way if they so choose to do so. And we must also recognise that many people have a different opinion on what it means to express themselves with pride in regards to their country of origin (or country of residence). The lovely gentleman lying on Carto's flag may have felt full of love and honour for his country whilst in that pose. To him, it may have been the ultimate expression of patriotism. Far be it from I to judge how someone should or should not express their love for their country - or indeed their derision. Part of being a valuable member of a democracy is knowing the importance of protest.

29. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #171318 by Elli on April 28, 2008 at 12:30 pm

Dick, it was a serious question. I am sincerely fascinated as to whether it is indeed possible to reconcile the facts of evolution with a belief in an interventionist god (I use the word interventionist to distinguish here from a god which merely sets the universe starting with its physical laws and sits on her hands). For what it is worth, I think it is impossible to reconcile the two. So I would be interested to know how you do so. Perhaps you could sway my mind.

30. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #171238 by Elli on April 28, 2008 at 11:39 am

Dick,

how do you reconcile your belief in a judeo-islamic-christian god with your understanding of evolution? Or are you a deist?

31. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #171217 by Elli on April 28, 2008 at 11:23 am

Dick: "There are no atheists in foxholes"

32. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #169594 by Elli on April 26, 2008 at 11:33 am

Remnant said:

Anyway, one of the big sticking points for these secular scientists is the something from nothing thingy. They have to find a way around this at all costs. Anything goes as long as it is not associated with God. They have to find a way for something to begin to exist from nothing.

33. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #169137 by Elli on April 25, 2008 at 2:57 pm

Rev Dark - I want that parrot !!
That was brilliant.

Remnant: Flood?

34. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #169125 by Elli on April 25, 2008 at 2:53 pm

Stuart Paul Wood just became my favourite person.

35. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #169096 by Elli on April 25, 2008 at 2:43 pm

Quetz said: Elli-
you should be flattered that he's picked you out to be insulted. You must be getting to him.

36. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #169061 by Elli on April 25, 2008 at 2:30 pm

4471. Comment #169037 by TheTruthID on April 25, 2008 at 2:22 pm:

Hey Elli,
Nice prom picture. You must of been Home Coming Pig.

37. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #169034 by Elli on April 25, 2008 at 2:20 pm

Very proud to be an animal. Much better then being a vegetable like Remnant.

Flood?

38. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #169001 by Elli on April 25, 2008 at 2:03 pm

Remnant, you should read those articles you cited more critically. For example, Trevor Loudon of "New Zeal" has a very different definition of "left" and "right" then is traditionally used. He defines the spectrum as being collectivism on one end and individualism on the other, from "left" to "right".

You're just revealing your own vacuousness here.

39. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #166677 by Elli on April 23, 2008 at 11:27 am

TTID: Why won't you answer Epeeist's questions?

40. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #166564 by Elli on April 23, 2008 at 9:58 am

thetruthid: if you are going to claim things are impossible, please learn how to spell the word.

Aside: what is it with fundamentalists and using all-caps? Is there some sort of syntax guide they give out in churches or something?

41. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #165908 by Elli on April 22, 2008 at 3:07 pm

chewmanfoo on April 22, 2008 at 2:29 pm: "When we all get to heaven, I'll say, "I told you so!"..."

If you are so sure heaven exists then why are you wasting all this time maintaining your life? Why do you cry at funerals? What was so wrong about the holocaust for you? - were not these people just given the chance to arrive in paradise just that much sooner... believing in a post-life heaven is nothing but a cult of death. It is a thoroughly detestable notion.

42. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #165292 by Elli on April 21, 2008 at 9:56 am

William Sierichs Jr., that was an excellent post by you. How anyone can attempt to claim that the anti-semitism that motivated the holocaust was from any other source then christianity is beyond me.

43. Sexpelled: No Intercourse Allowed

Comment #162906 by Elli on April 17, 2008 at 4:42 pm

Brilliant!

This is why I love this site!

44. Fleabytes

Comment #150902 by Elli on March 27, 2008 at 2:33 pm

Al, don't you mean FINRA?
"NASD" is so last season!

45. Expelled Overview

Comment #149425 by Elli on March 25, 2008 at 3:34 pm

Thanks to Josh for that review.
I shudder to think if, being in that theatre, I would have been able to keep my composure - or my blood pressure at healthy levels!

46. Fleabytes

Comment #147876 by Elli on March 21, 2008 at 1:37 pm

Comment #147872 by Artful_Dodger:

History is littered with examples. Where do you want me to start? Which failed utopia would you like me to refer you to?

47. EXPELLED!

Comment #147826 by Elli on March 21, 2008 at 11:34 am

This is from the Amused Muse blog, from one of the gentleman who was in line:

Blogger Rev. Barking Nonsequitur said...

Expelled was shown at the Mall of America multiplex.

For the record - and Kristine and I witnessed the whole thing, PZ was approached as he was in line and pulled aside by an officer and was told "Sir, we got a call from the producer that you must leave the premises". PZ was making the rounds talking to Dawkins and other Atheists in the line. He came up to Kristine and I and told us he was being kicked out. At that point the officer pulled him aside and said "Sir unless you have a ticket to see another show in this theater you are to leave immediately". PZ did not argue or anything he just said he would go and he did. He was NOT bothering anyone, just talking to friends in line. It was cowardly for Mathis not to ask PZ to leave himself.

48. I don't believe in atheists

Comment #145260 by Elli on March 17, 2008 at 12:29 pm

al-rawandi,

I must admit I had always just assumed one side of this issue was right and the other wrong. It wasn't that I chose to not think about the issues - but I don't think I was very frequently contemplating the correct data. From both sides, there is so much "information" that is spurious, deceitful, invented etc. Recently I am finding myself re-evaluating what I had previous considered to be "obviously" the case. One thing is for sure, things would be a lot more resolvable if the nut-cases from *both* sides removed themselves from the conflict (however impossible that would be). The fundamentalist Jews involved in the conflict are every bit as culpable as their Palestinian counterparts - however different their political "strategies" may appear on the surface.

49. I don't believe in atheists

Comment #145250 by Elli on March 17, 2008 at 12:04 pm

Here is the difference. Shaykh Ahmed Yassin, head of Hamas until his assassination said that all Jews who could trace ancestry to Palestine before 1948 would be allowed to stay in the Palestinian State, once Israel was destroyed.

There is not one Jewish Fundamentalist would even entertain the notion of an Arab presence in Eretz Yisroel.

50. Fleabytes

Comment #143814 by Elli on March 14, 2008 at 1:04 pm

Paula: Good to hear from you, Elli - haven't seen you around for ages!