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Comments by Paine


1. Obama Wants to Expand Role of Religious Groups

Comment #203421 by Paine on July 2, 2008 at 10:39 pm

Sciros

And when you start to look at what those rules are (that is, what makes one religious group different from another), you tend to notice that each is just a different kind of crazy -- nothing they want to ADD in terms of legislation would bring us closer to the UK and everything would bring us closer to Iran.

Very possible...but isn't it equally likely that these competing idiocies will cancel each other out and what's left will be a wishy-washy baseline creed that rests on a secular consensus.
Besides, the biggest advantage will be that all the fringe group loonies will lose their tax-exempt status. Like the UK, the official C of E(or whatever) would be a watered down shell, subservient to the civil govt and the rest would be bereft of their tax-breaks. No need for any faith-based initiative nonsense.

2. Obama Wants to Expand Role of Religious Groups

Comment #203259 by Paine on July 2, 2008 at 2:18 pm

GreggTownsend

To me it sounded like he meant; the result from the fall of separation between church and state isn't necessarily a UK model--it's equally likely to result in an Iran model.

I was saying that given the similarities between UK and US, it's more likely that US will follow the UK model rather than the Iran model.

3. Obama Wants to Expand Role of Religious Groups

Comment #203174 by Paine on July 2, 2008 at 12:42 pm

Sciros

You bring up the UK as a model of no wall of separation. I can bring up Iran.


You cant seriously believe that American culture is closer to Iran than to Britain! 400 years of history says the opposite.

4. Obama Wants to Expand Role of Religious Groups

Comment #203102 by Paine on July 2, 2008 at 11:22 am

Even though I live in the US, I've always been confused by this church-state business. It's good in theory, but what does it mean in practice?

Americans are terrified if the 'wall-of-separation' breaks down. Well, what would happen if it did break down?.....we'd be more like the UK, I suppose.

And I cant really say that's a step down. (50% atheists over there)
Why am I wrong ?(practically speaking)

5. Mormons urged to back ban on same-sex marriage

Comment #199202 by Paine on June 25, 2008 at 10:15 am

Mormons are stupid.
They don't realise that gay marriage is their invitation to get polygamy legalised.

6. Town moves against Islamic school

Comment #185105 by Paine on May 27, 2008 at 12:26 am

Damien White...

While I can only speak for myself, Australians have a great deal of tolerance for those who are friendly.


Im sure you'd know, but wasn't the South African cricket team subjected to repeated racist taunts recently? Something which has not happened anywhere else, I might add.

I think there is a definite undercurrent of racism in Australian attitudes to outsiders.

7. Town moves against Islamic school

Comment #185083 by Paine on May 26, 2008 at 9:56 pm

Christopher Davis...Anyway, glad to see that there are several contributors here who understand that Muslims aren't a race. ....

I perfectly understand that Muslims aren't a race. But I'll bet the chances are those Aussie villagers dont know that.

The article itself had no indication that the townspeople were racist, but it's also true that Autralians, in general, are more racist.

Besides, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt when they start protesting Catholic schools.

8. Town moves against Islamic school

Comment #184910 by Paine on May 26, 2008 at 11:56 am

Isn't it sad, horribly pathetic, that the only people willing to stand up to religious indoctrination in Australia are a bunch of racist hicks?

What hope for secularism in that country?

9. Non-religious summer camps develop niche

Comment #184290 by Paine on May 24, 2008 at 10:28 am

Interesting, but rather silly.
Why don't they just have a science camp or nature camp instead of a specifically non-religious camp. Seems like a waste of time.

10. Bible Theme Park Faces Opposition in Tennessee

Comment #180716 by Paine on May 15, 2008 at 3:38 pm

Donald McDonald? You've got to be kidding, right?

With names like that they deserve this ludicrous park.

11. The Dissent Of Darwin - The World Of Richard Dawkins

Comment #180416 by Paine on May 14, 2008 at 9:24 pm

What's that about life on Mars. I'd forgotten about it.

can somebody remind me and tell me why they were wrong?

12. Americans pray at the pump for cheaper petrol

Comment #179476 by Paine on May 13, 2008 at 10:05 am

I live in the US, and I dont understand all the whining about high prices. As has been pointed out, we pay much less than Europeans. From what I've seen, we pay much less than most Third World Countries even!

Besides, I always assumed the people who could afford big SUVs and Hummers had fat enough wallets not to care about a few bucks at the pump.

I could afford a second-hand Civic, and the expenditure on fuel is not that much. Those who can splurge on big SUVs should have to worry even less. I dont understand what they are whining about.

13. 'My daughter deserved to die for falling in love'

Comment #178516 by Paine on May 11, 2008 at 2:21 pm

It's funny.....I've met people like this dad. They seem perfectly normal in all respects but have conditioned themselves to see people's lives as less important than their own social status.

Plus, men in these countries don't involve themselves with child-rearing, considering it effeminate. Hence, they dont develop emotional bonds with their kids.

14. Truly Bizarre : Indians Throw Babies 50ft From Roof To Thank God.

Comment #174928 by Paine on May 3, 2008 at 9:47 pm

HistoryJunky

I apologise if I came across as offensive, since that was not my intention. Though it is interesting to see someone take offence on behalf of a religion in an atheist forum. My point is that religions can't be 'improved'. They're all equally irrational and the only way forward is to make a clean break once and for all.

You actually made my point. EVERY single religion starts out as a break from the old superstitions and promises a Brave New World free from dogma. At the end of day they turn out to be just like all the others and bear little or no resemblance to their founder's intentions.

Sikhism may have started out to be different from Hinduism and Islam but it copied a lot of the nonsense from both. Like Muslims they worship a book. Not just what the book says....the ACTUAL book!
It's considered a living Guru or some such nonsense. It is actually wheeled out every year and supposedly gives advice depending on which page happens to be opened. That's pretty much the same as any Hindu idolatry Ive seen.

Lots of enlightened religious people try to justify meaningless anachronisms as 'symbolic', but that doesn't make them any less silly. People claim that Eucharists and Hijab's are also symbolic but they lose their relevance in the modern world.

Besides, anyone can be an atheist and never wear an 'A' shirt. But you can never be true Sikh if you get a haircut or have a shave. And, symbolic or not, that's always seemed to be an exceedingly foolish requirement to insist upon.

15. Truly Bizarre : Indians Throw Babies 50ft From Roof To Thank God.

Comment #174894 by Paine on May 3, 2008 at 6:43 pm

History Junky

One of the things that made me grateful for belonging to the sikh heritage is that the religion was developed to do away with stupid rituals and superstitions like this.


That's a joke. Sikh's are supposed to wear magic Mormon-style underpants. And carry a knife inside them. Not to mention the bangles for guys.

Besides, never shaving and never cutting your hair is enough stupidity for a lifetime.

16. Truly Bizarre : Indians Throw Babies 50ft From Roof To Thank God.

Comment #174723 by Paine on May 3, 2008 at 10:47 am

Isn't Sanal the same guy who made a fool of that Tantrik black magic clown?

17. Richard Dawkins and Bill Maher

Comment #159698 by Paine on April 12, 2008 at 10:07 pm

Lieve, there is hope. Shermer used to be a creationist after all.
Besides, brick walls cant be argued with, they just have to be dismantled, one block at a time.

18. Richard Dawkins and Bill Maher

Comment #159692 by Paine on April 12, 2008 at 9:34 pm

lievemebe

Surely it is better to explain evolution to creationists from a rational position, thereby re-inforcing the power of reason.


Hehe. What makes you think creationists are willing to listen to rational arguments? The idea is a contradiction.

19. Richard Dawkins and Bill Maher

Comment #159681 by Paine on April 12, 2008 at 7:51 pm

I think we should stop giving Francis Collins such a hard time for all the bullshit he believes. Look at him as a tactical ploy in the larger battle. The fact that he believes in evolution AND is a bona fide faith-head can be used to great advantage.

I read a review of a talk he gave to some hardcore faith-based nut jobs. At the end of it many of them were sincerely open to accepting evolution, coming from him, as it were.
You'll have to accept that no matter how articulate and reasonable Prof. Dawkins is, he would never have gotten the same reaction from that audience.
Dawkins is the big picture, but the Francis Collins of this world have their use too.

20. Anti-Quran Film Fitna Pulled From Web Due to 'Threats'

Comment #152327 by Paine on March 30, 2008 at 5:36 pm

I saw the film. Disappointingly amateurish. A cut-and-paste job of stuff already available. Looks like he spent all of 10 minutes on Youtube to make this movie. I guess the TV channels are heaving a sigh of relief that they refused to broadcast it!

I thought 'Undercover mosque' by one of your British TV channels was much more provocative and riveting. There should be more like those.

21. Saudi Arabia Leader Calls for Interfaith Dialogue

Comment #150441 by Paine on March 26, 2008 at 11:28 pm

She wore a headscarf. I was uncomfortable seeing her, and only after the deal was done did I consider that I might have refused to sell him the car, based on his treatment of his daughter.


That would have been really misguided. You cant discriminate against people based on what they wear.
Besides, if you wanted to be consistent you'd have to ask every potential buyer..

'is your child the same religion as you?'
'Yes? Then buzz off.'

Good luck selling your car.

22. Richard Dawkins' US Tour begins this week

Comment #140802 by Paine on March 8, 2008 at 4:12 pm

Sorry if I have missed this, but is there a video up of RD's recent lecture?

Also, anyone going to the Stanford thing, please record and post it for us less fortunate souls!

23. Christopher Hitchens on Real Time with Bill Maher

Comment #137057 by Paine on March 2, 2008 at 8:54 am

I think I may have seen too many Hitch videos when I start tired of his 'birth canal' comment.
I know we criticise RD for saying the same things in every interview, but in all honesty there are a limited number of ways that you can state a scientific proposition. 2 2 remains 4 no matter how many times you say it. But a joke loses its effectiveness when it's repeated too often.

Hitch should come up with some new laugh lines.

24. America: slouching towards the Enlightenment

Comment #135387 by Paine on February 28, 2008 at 10:37 pm

Excellent post by PZ. He really hits the nail on the head(as always). I liked his analysis of the 'i was once an atheist....' meme. It seems like a virtual rite of passage for any self respecting evangelical( a'la francis collins).

Im not sure how to interpret the 'secular' and 'religious' unaffiliated.

I assume Secular unaffiliated implies some sort of Einsteinian Spinozism. Religious unaffiliated probably means Jefferson-Paine style Deists. Either way, I think it's good news for us.

I think the study neglected a very important question, namely marriage. Im pretty sure a large percentage of the people who shifted did so because their spouses were of another faith. It goes to show how religion is less about conviction and more about social practicality.

Any personal stories from people here would be helpful. Did you or someone you know change their (un)beliefs because of marriage? How did that work out?

25. Bill Moyers Interviews Susan Jacoby

Comment #128997 by Paine on February 18, 2008 at 1:05 pm

I Dont know about this book, but in general Susan Jacoby seems to be a very smart, insightful and knowledgeable writer.
You can tell from her blogs on the Washington Post On Faith site. She is the only regular worth reading, standing out from the farrago of pablum and feel-good nonsense that permeates the rest of the website.

I think we are well-served by having such an articulate spokeswoman for our point of view.

26. A match made on RichardDawkins.net?

Comment #128519 by Paine on February 17, 2008 at 9:27 am

Congrats guys.

If someone hasn't said it yet, let me get it out of the way....

Yorker bowls maiden over!

27. Ayaan Hirsi Ali asks for protection

Comment #128171 by Paine on February 16, 2008 at 12:04 pm

Linda said

Sometimes, I get really offended when people call me "stupid" and "cheap" just because I'm an American.


I think it should have been clear from my post that I meant the US govt and NOT Americans in general. Im sorry if you understood it the wrong way. I live in the US and I love this country and its people.

Im just sick of this administration for its defeatist approach to Islamic fanaticism. They preach endlessly about freedom but dont seem to have the guts to back up words with deed.

I mean, as an American, surely you must feel a twinge of embarassment when a poor country like India is willing to stand up for free speach and support Taslima, while rich and powerful USA wont do anything for Ayaan.

Like I said earlier, how many millions are being given to Blackwater to protect the corrupt and destructive Iraqi Parliamentarians, money which would be much better spent protecting the brave Ms Hirsi Ali.

Regards,

Paine

PS: $340 for 2 weeks seems like half the minimum wage. Do you work for Wal-mart? or part-time?

28. Ayaan Hirsi Ali asks for protection

Comment #128142 by Paine on February 16, 2008 at 10:28 am

Hugh Caldwell

It's preposterous to expect the American government to act against its nature.


Well, they come across as hollow and insincere. Blathering endlessly about 'Islamofascism' and 'war on terror', here is the perfect opportunity to back it up with some concrete action.
It will take a minuscule fraction of the 'war on terror' budget to protect Ayaan, and it will be to the US' eternal credit if they are willing to take a stand on principle.
For a govt that preaches endlessly about universal freedom and human rights they should show some spine on this issue. Especially since the cost and effort would be negligible.

29. Ayaan Hirsi Ali asks for protection

Comment #128129 by Paine on February 16, 2008 at 9:20 am

It's not ironic, but perfectly normal, that the United States should not offer protection to a private citizen and completely absurd to expect they would offer it to somebody who is not even an American citizen.


That's exactly the kind of nonsense that makes the US look even stupider than it is. If India can afford to protect Taslima, Im sure the US can afford to protect Ayaan.

Instead of handing millions to those Blackwater thugs to guard the corrupt Iraqi politicians, they should fund some security for Ayaan.

30. Ayaan Hirsi Ali asks for protection

Comment #128034 by Paine on February 15, 2008 at 10:26 pm

I think the US govt has behaved shamefully in the whole matter. For the richest country in the world and self-proclaimed universal defender of human rights, they have pathetically refused to raise a finger in defense of Ayaan.

Compare this to the protection offered( albeit grudgingly) to Taslima Nasreen by third-world India. Taslima faces a much bigger threat than Ayaan, and despite pressure from politicians, violent mobs and sundry fanatics, the world's second-largest Muslim nation extended her visa and continues to provide her with round-the-clock security.

Ofcourse, part of the support for her is from the right-wing Hindus who love to see Muslims being insulted, but the majority defend her right to free speach. The US really should hang its head in shame.

31. Sharia fiasco

Comment #124895 by Paine on February 10, 2008 at 11:55 am

Why can't the British (and the European people in general) just tell the Muslims to piss off and go back to Arabia if they want Sharia?!


that's an easy one. it's because the Europeans spent centuries going over to the Muslim countries plundering, enslaving and destroying people in their own countries. It's difficult to adopt the moral high ground with people you have been oppressing for hundreds of years.

Ofcourse, nowadays the Europeans seem too stupid to realise that post-colonial guilt does not mean compromising on right and wrong.

32. Sharia law in UK is 'unavoidable'

Comment #123895 by Paine on February 7, 2008 at 11:24 pm

Separate laws for separate religions. We've seen how well that has worked in India, Malaysia etc. Rivers of blood shed, polarisation, ghettoisation and segregation.
I think the Archbishop is a determined aspirant for the title of stupidest man alive. He should be thrown out of Parliament and his seat given to Prof. Dawkins. RD will knock some sense into those moral-relativity morons.

33. Christopher Hitchens Debates Timothy Jackson

Comment #122700 by Paine on February 5, 2008 at 8:47 pm

This is just cruel. Someone should have stopped this on humanitarian grounds when Jackson was getting massacred so badly.

34. Some non-Christians feel left out of election

Comment #121594 by Paine on February 3, 2008 at 6:57 pm

Though Im not American, I live here and the war on Islamic terrorism is the no.1 issue IMHO. The only 2 candidates who seem to have given any serious thought to that are Mccain and Obama. Mccain is right about Iraq, but Obama is right about Afghanistan-Pakistan. I think, ultimately, the latter is far more important and that would put Obama a little ahead.

The rest only pay lip-service to 'war on terror' and say whatever they think is going to play well in the polls. I think Mccain and Obama are the only ones who will come up with a plan that aims to succeed, which will be a welcome change from the defeatist policies of Bush-Cheney.

35. Some non-Christians feel left out of election

Comment #121460 by Paine on February 3, 2008 at 12:49 pm

As for the most secular candidate, I think that would be Barrack Obama.


He's a member of some wacko congegation, but it looks like he joined just to get some street-cred for his social work.

From what I've seen he seems to be in the closet. His parents were atheists and so was he till he got into politics. This opportunistic coversion does not seem to have hurt his image among religious Americans. I guess it's because hypocrisy is part and parcel of faith.

But, yeah, he looks like the most secular candidate and hopefully he'll sign up for the OUT campaign. We can certainly use a high-profile guy like him.

36. Islam in Europe

Comment #114843 by Paine on January 23, 2008 at 3:11 am

Goldy, you're right about the Empire obligations. It's hard to tell people what to do when you've gone over and subjugated them in their own countries.

But I do think the European Islamic problem is not limited to far-right propaganda. Ayaan Hirsi Ali would not be under full-time protection otherwise. Besides, it says a lot when there are more jihadis from Britain than, say, Malaysia ( a Muslim country). Also, the fact that German Turks are more fundamentalist than Turkish Turks after 2 generations means there is a serious underlying problem.

37. Islam in Europe

Comment #114823 by Paine on January 23, 2008 at 1:03 am

Some very good points by Pat. But IMHO the Europeans deserve a good share of the blame for bringing this on themselves.
Firstly Islam is not new or recent. Europeans should have known what they were getting themselves into when they let hordes of fanatics settle into their societies. Instead of letting only educated and ambitious people in (like the US) they brought in the most backward villagers, hoping that they'll do the dirty work that Europeans did not want to do. Naturally those people brought their primitive practices with them.

Furthermore, most European societies are clannish and chauvinistic that look down on outsiders. This makes integration for immigrants very difficult and encourages ghettoisation.

Compare this with the Americans who are much more open and accepting of diversity. That's a big reason why American Muslims are upstanding and well-grounded rather than the canker sores that their European brethren have become.

Europe seems to have dug a deep hole for itself and must have the courage to stand up for its values in the face of faith-based threats to society.

38. Stop revisionist Christian nation House Resolution 888

Comment #114376 by Paine on January 22, 2008 at 5:38 am

SummerSeal

I wish Dick Cheny was in power


Of all the infantile ideas Ive heard......I thought you were interested in winning the war on terror, but apparently not. If you were you wouldn't think of letting a certified half-wit like Cheney anywhere near a battle plan. Cheney is no Patton. Patton knew how to win. Bush-Cheney only know how to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.
Look at Iraq and Afghanistan. More dangerous and worse off since the invasions. They should have been walkovers but those buffoons contrived to screw them up. Anyone halfway competent would never have let the jihadis get so strong. Bush only drones on and on about 'freedom' while walking hand-in-hand (literally) with Wahhabist thugs like the Saudis.

Al qaeda is stronger than ever before and Bush doesn't have the balls to do anything about it. Patton would never have gotten suckered over and over again by a two-faced scumbag like Musharraf who gives the Taliban a free reign. Musharraf knows that as long as they are around, idiots like Cheney will keep gifting him billions of dollars. Portions of which go to Al qaeda(via the ISI) and is used to blow up American troops.
Im not happy that my tax dollars are being used to fund the resurgence of bin Laden, but I guess that's what you want.

I dont know when people like you will grow up and realise that we need someone who actually wants to WIN rather than just sleep while handing victory on a platter to the terrorists.

39. Huckabee Wants A 'Faith-based' Constitution

Comment #112329 by Paine on January 16, 2008 at 9:01 pm

Obama does profess that he is a Christian


I think Obama is a prime candidate for the OUT campaign. I really suspect he's in the closet.
His parents were atheists, and he only joined that ridiculous congregation of his to get some street-cred for his social work.

The OUT campaign could definitely use a high profile politician like him.

40. Sam Harris debate with Rabbi David Wolpe

Comment #108025 by Paine on January 5, 2008 at 8:47 pm

SummerSale

Judaism does not actually make any claims about other religions, really.


Correct me if Im wrong, but looking at the Old Testament Jews are supposed to massacre non-Jews and drive them away from the Promised Land. That seems like a pretty huge claim, per se.

41. Sam Harris debate with Rabbi David Wolpe

Comment #107979 by Paine on January 5, 2008 at 6:17 pm

And now, having watched the entire video, I can finally agree with those that advocate the smackdown between Harris and D'Souza.


Why? Is there any point in debating D'souza? He spews so much nonsense that you'd take hours to refute each point.

Besides, I think the debate with Dennett showed that he doesn't need to be demolished by his opponent, he can do it all by himself. I mean, as boring as Dennett was, Dinesh still managed to make a complete jackass of himself.

There's no point in anyone serious debating Dinesh, any unknown would be up to the job.

42. Sam Harris debate with Rabbi David Wolpe

Comment #107823 by Paine on January 5, 2008 at 12:37 pm

I prefer these events, when the two sides are discussing with a referee. So much better than when D'Souza gets to speak for five minutes, throwing out countless fallacies, with no interuption from someone picking him up on each one.


Yeah, I made the point in an earlier post that moderators need to take an active role in debates. Especially when idiots like Dinesh are around.
This debate was much more entertaining because the rabbi was inherently a much nicer guy and much more open to reason and discussion. I almost felt sorry for him at the end.
I dont think the Hitchens debate will be as good because, let's face it, Hitchens style is much closer to Dinesh than Sam Harris'. Low on discussion and high on bloviation.

BTW, sam had me in splits when he brought Elvis up.

43. Sam Harris debate with Rabbi David Wolpe

Comment #107817 by Paine on January 5, 2008 at 12:24 pm

SummerSeale

Okay then, obviously we should eliminate all sporting events as well.



Why stop at sports. Have you seen any video on youtube? It could be music or wildlife, but within 30 views the comments always degenerate into abuse. Anyway, I thought it was obvious I was talking about nationalism and not sport in my original post.

epeist
Not quite wars


Actually, yes. El Salvador and Honduras went to war after a controversial football match. On the bright side, Nigeria stopped their civil war to watch Pele in an exhibition match.

44. Sam Harris debate with Rabbi David Wolpe

Comment #107780 by Paine on January 5, 2008 at 10:26 am

SummerSeale

And all our societies generally have way bigger things to worry about than red sox fans going against yankee fans in some bar during the world series, or eagles fans getting into fights with anyone else =)


Haha....you obviously haven't seen a South American football(soccer) match or an India-Pakistan cricket match! Wars have hung over the outcome of these games.

Nationalism can be just as dangerous and delusional as religion.

45. Huckabee: Guns, God and rock'n'roll

Comment #107755 by Paine on January 5, 2008 at 7:49 am

I think the US has made a huge mistake by not attacking Al-Qaeda in Pakistan. This should have been done 5 yrs ago. I cant believe people saying it's a bad idea, the only bad idea is trusting Musharraf to do anything about it.

The simple reality is, anti-terrorism has gotten a bad name because of Musharaf's dictatorial power grabs.

46. Pope's exorcist squads will wage war on Satan

Comment #104738 by Paine on December 29, 2007 at 9:53 am

Paula

To judge from that photo, they won't have to look far to find their first candidate for exorcism ...


And to judge from your photo....you are Julie Andrews!

But you're right, his photo has Hitler Youth written all over it.

47. Wisdom From The Founding Rationalists

Comment #104731 by Paine on December 29, 2007 at 9:25 am

Divineosaur

I think that the reason we argue over the intent of the forefathers is because they crafted the founding documents based on certain ideals and if we start to abandon some of the original intent for this nation then we set a precedent for the abandonment of all of it.


Right, but dont you think it's more productive to debate issues based on what would be beneficial in the here and now rather than what Jefferson or Adams might have been thinking when they wrote this-or-that.

Imagine if the debate over slavery had followed that path. The slaveowners certainly had the stronger argument based on the Founding Fathers.

It's much more cogent to argue Church-State separation on its inherent benefits to society rather than its speculated prominence in the minds of long-dead revolutionaries.

48. Wisdom From The Founding Rationalists

Comment #104642 by Paine on December 29, 2007 at 3:56 am

Don Quix

I totally agree that we should put things in context when discussing the FF. What I object to is using their supposed intentions as relevant to modern issues.

Like this whole Church-State separation issue. Both sides spend all their time arguing over what the Founding Fathers believed. That's irrelevant and a complete waste of time, IMHO.They should be saying 'never mind what the Founding Fathers thought, Church-State separation is good for us in the here and now'.

When Americans get all uppity and teary-eyed about the revolution, they are generally having an emotional reaction towards the ideas that the founders represent, not the founders themselves.


Yeah, but this poring over and parsing of their words that goes on really resembles theological cherry-picking. Like scouring Scripture for words and phrases that support your own ideas. I'd say this Founding Father Fetish resembles some latter-day form of idolatry that we'd be better off without.

49. Wisdom From The Founding Rationalists

Comment #104565 by Paine on December 28, 2007 at 7:00 pm

annabanana

I am disgusted to hear people simply dismiss the voices of reason of our Founding Fathers.


Fair enough, but I have been more than puzzled by the Founding Father Fetish that exists in this country.

Ofcourse, they were pioneers of democracy and political justice, which can never be stated enough. But it's foolish to base our arguments on modern issues on speculations of their supposed intentions.

I dont see why we can not appreciate their immense contributions while at the same time recognising that they were sexist and racist bigots. And quite hypocritical about it, too.

I know it was a different time and all that but if we are going to co-opt their assertions to decide modern issues we need to judge them by modern standards. It's that simple.

50. Survey finds most Americans believe Jesus born of virgin

Comment #102406 by Paine on December 22, 2007 at 4:13 pm

These surveys are all bullshit, anyway.
Having just identified yourself as a Christian, you're sure as hell not going to go on and deny the virgin birth, are you?

Q. Are you a Christian?
A. Yes

Q. Do you believe Jesus was the son of god?
A. Yes

Q. Do you believe he was born of a virgin?
A. Errrr...actually no, that's just a made up fable.

Even the most feckless moron is not going to say that!

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