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Comments by automath


1. How to reconcile Richard Dawkins?

Comment #172418 by automath on April 29, 2008 at 2:42 pm

I recommend Bart Ehrman for people that are just starting out. He claims agnosticism though


In the sense that atheism is usually meant in a religious framework then even the agnostic is an atheist. Depending on how narrow the belief of the religious person the sense might also make Pagans, Satanist's and followers of all other religious ideologies; atheist's as well. Hence the sense that Marxism is an atheist ideology because of its stance towards religion even though it managed to take on and use the self same properties of any "great religion".

Atheism as a form of movement has been about having questioning mind and using it to challenge assumptions rather than blind submission of the mind to any particular ideology: as per religion. Hence a primary reason religion is so open to the abuse we continually witness in the world about us.

An agnostic is just the less attacked sense of being an atheist. One not of another's religion.

2. BBC 'too scared to allow jokes about Islam'

Comment #155728 by automath on April 5, 2008 at 11:57 am

He told Third Way, a Christian culture magazine: "I think it all starts with people nodding whenever anyone says, 'As a person of faith ...'

"And I believe that part of it is due to the genuine fear that the authorities and the community have about provoking the radical elements of Islam.


So precisely the way it has historically gained its respect. The criminally deluded threatening the rest of us with violence.

3. Hitchens and Boteach Debate on God

Comment #125090 by automath on February 11, 2008 at 12:11 am

There maybe a case to be argued that says we should remove the rope before someone comes along and puts it around their own neck. I think any case so made, for such a proposal, would be vastly overstated.

4. US 'doomed' if creationist president elected: scientists

Comment #108807 by automath on January 7, 2008 at 4:06 pm

ianmkz

Once again with my pet peeve - evolution is not to believed, it is to be understood.




So you don't believe in evolution?!;)


Well I certainly don't!

I believe that evolution is ...

A small but important difference, where the nature of belief is concerned.

5. State Board of Education

Comment #106863 by automath on January 3, 2008 at 3:41 pm

oh crap, I just wet myself!

6. The OUT Campaign has its own Flea!

Comment #106861 by automath on January 3, 2008 at 3:35 pm

Good job they put 'christian' under that C otherwise I'd have instantly thought along the line of Hunt.

7. Moderates Storm The Religious Battlefield

Comment #106514 by automath on January 3, 2008 at 4:18 am

jaytee_555

"What's dangerous about the world today is not belief in God—or secularism or unbelief—but ruthless certainty"


Are you absolutley certain about that, Lisa?


That's the killer question when confronted with such statements that are underpinned by the current tready relativistic notion of truth.

They seem incapable of distinguishing between different spheres of influence and knowledge; prefering instead, to generalise to the point that things become absurd.

8. Moderates Storm The Religious Battlefield

Comment #106510 by automath on January 3, 2008 at 4:04 am

" Doubt, says Keller, is the cornerstone of faith."

That is silly, actually, gullibility is the "cornerstone of faith."


Surely it is credulity that is the 'cornerstone of faith'

9. Moderates Storm The Religious Battlefield

Comment #106501 by automath on January 3, 2008 at 3:47 am

Janus

You've hit the nail on the head. The sentence you've quoted is the usual mantra of the religious moderates. They look at religious fundies, they see how crazy they are, and they wonder why. Their conclusion is never that fundies are crazy because of their faith, because moderates have faith too, therefore the only possibility is that fundies are crazy because they're too certain. Ergo, certainty is bad, giving rise to the popular forms of postmodernism and post-structuralism (even if they don't realize that's what they believe).

Of course any thinking person can see that this is nonsense. Is it bad to be certain that the Earth is round, that our bodies are made of cells, that George W. Bush is the president of the USA, and that unicorns are mythical creatures?

There's nothing wrong with certainty, if this certainty is proportional to the quantity and quality of the evidence.

Religious fundamentalists aren't crazy because they're certain per se, they're crazy because they're certain about faith-based beliefs (and because these beliefs are inspired by a collection of superstitions and barbaric, outdated morality, of course).
Religious moderates aren't nicer than fundamentalists because they're less certain per se, they're nicer because they're less certain about their faith-based beliefs (and because they manage to fool themselves into ignoring the worst bits of the aforementioned collection of barbaric myths).
And better than either of those groups are people who take nothing on faith at all.

Certainty isn't the problem, faith is.


Such a good post and one that illuminates the lack of general understanding among faith-based thinking.

10. Moderates Storm The Religious Battlefield

Comment #106494 by automath on January 3, 2008 at 3:33 am

What kind of seekers and skeptics fill up 5,000 member mega-churches?


I can think of two types of people. Firstly are the kind that have a feeling that there is more to life than this. And second are the type that know there must be a god but they haven't actually latched on to him yet.

The first are usually ignorant of what the 'this' actually is, the second have accepted the christian god and are looking for guidance. Both are victims on which religion typically prays.

11. Moderates Storm The Religious Battlefield

Comment #106491 by automath on January 3, 2008 at 3:27 am

This is the third article I've read in as many days that claims something purely on the grounds of not knowing everything. This type of faith is even more toxic to reason than doctrinal faith. There is a middle ground between the false dichotomy of ruthless certainty and not knowing everything. We don't need to posit any old thing just because we don't hold all the answers.

I find this to be a call towards a form of radical-scepticism where nothing is known, talk about leaving yourself open to any old authority figure.

Very pervasive and dangerous, people will be buying into it in the hope of finding some comfort and because it sounds nice. Such a shame.

I also find Keller's position on scepticism to be rather disingenuous in a rather similar vein to that of thestic agnostism.

12. Pope's exorcist squads will wage war on Satan

Comment #104663 by automath on December 29, 2007 at 5:14 am

bah, does anyone else loss comments posted to this board because they are logged out?

13. Pope's exorcist squads will wage war on Satan

Comment #104640 by automath on December 29, 2007 at 3:50 am

Excellent points Steve.

Of course this is how theists would be expected to see anyone that was without their god, as their god is the only god.

This form of Religion is divisive in the extreme.

14. Pope's exorcist squads will wage war on Satan

Comment #104634 by automath on December 29, 2007 at 3:24 am

Paula Kirby - To judge from that photo, they won't have to look far to find their first candidate for exorcism ...


You're just the best...

15. Pope's exorcist squads will wage war on Satan

Comment #104633 by automath on December 29, 2007 at 3:23 am

BAEOZ - So this is what RD didn't address when he avoided sophisticated theological arguments then?


Ah that might be, I'm still waiting for a reply to my many requests for the sophisticated stuff. I was starting to wonder if it had something to do with exploding underwear.

16. Pope's exorcist squads will wage war on Satan

Comment #104631 by automath on December 29, 2007 at 3:17 am

lol, combating the most extreme form of 'godlessness'. It doesn't take much imagination to see what that Jesus fellow had against organised religion with their man-made 'laws'.


You know that this is really a move to combat the Penacostals with their magic men, hence the really reason the Roman Catholics are advertising magic men of their own. I wonder when the people will wake up to this insanity.

17. What We Believe: Atheism

Comment #104405 by automath on December 28, 2007 at 12:45 pm

Raw humility and I bet he doesn't even realise it. The religious could learn a thing or more from the local atheist :>p

18. Archbishop of Canterbury Praises Richard Dawkins

Comment #104386 by automath on December 28, 2007 at 12:04 pm

Haven't read it yet.

_J_ - I'm growing quite proud of, and impressed by, our Archbishops.


But if you like this read up on the Scout Movement on Wikipedia. Compare and contrast the UK version against the American Christian Fascist one.

19. 'Gospel of wealth' facing scrutiny

Comment #104171 by automath on December 28, 2007 at 3:28 am

Vaal - Disgusting. I agree with Philip, these are vulnerable people who have been hoodwinked by unscrupulous avaricious charlatans. They should be protected by law, and these odious thugs prosecuted, as the scam merchants they are.


Why are these people vulnerable, surely is it their right to believe as they want. How do you protect people from themselves? I'd posit an education, a searching and questioning mind but how do you prevent them from flocking to religious charlatans if that's what they want to do. I bet God wouldn't allow man to regulate the religious. lol.

20. 'Gospel of wealth' facing scrutiny

Comment #104164 by automath on December 28, 2007 at 3:14 am

Diacanu - I've had this argument with religionists, and their counter point was that if churches were taxed, then they'd lobby even harder and openly for their religious shit to be legislated.


lol, yea right, they'd have to fleece more 'faithful' to pay for the lobbying. What is it with religion and threatening behaviour?

21. Al Qaeda: We're open to questions

Comment #102430 by automath on December 22, 2007 at 6:19 pm

Oh dear - the world is full of word games.

rthille -- Maybe you should kill the Buddha then? :-)


Excellent idea, I always try and kill him at least once a day.

22. Three wise men just legend: archbishop

Comment #102424 by automath on December 22, 2007 at 5:36 pm

lol, Rowan Williams is in danger of being the next proud recipient of that well worn and old world label of atheist. Which, because he has spoken would make him a militant. At least the fear of death has passed from the weapons of terror that enforced the churches christian teachings, so he only has God to contend with! However, I'm fairly sure he could wish him away if he wanted too.

23. Do our leaders believe in God?

Comment #102416 by automath on December 22, 2007 at 4:52 pm

Mere education is not enough. As Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins have mentioned, the 9/11 muslim terrorists were highly educated. Same with the Glasgow Airport terrorists (doctors even - so much for the Hippocratic Oath).

A course in critical thinking - as others have voiced in RD.NET, is probably an essential component that education needs to provide.


Oh and make sure they don't play on the same football team for to long, or drink and watch TV together :p Other than that you can fill their heads with as much religious clap-trap as you want.

24. 'Atheistic fundamentalism' fears

Comment #102409 by automath on December 22, 2007 at 4:31 pm

Think of how fundamentalists might typically be thought of coming across and you'll start to realise what the charge is about. It actually has little to do with us actually being fundamentalists, but if that fear can also be conjured up in the minds of the gullible, so much the better. Religion, some say, is about making sense of the world; unfortunately accuracy of interpretation doesn't figure in these calculations, it is all about further supporting their delusions and to that aim: anything goes.

25. 'Atheistic fundamentalism' fears

Comment #102404 by automath on December 22, 2007 at 4:05 pm

Dr Morgan said it was "perfectly natural" to have a "coherent and rational debate about the tenets of the Christianity".


He should be saving this kind of rhetoric for the chambers of his church meetings.

But he said "virulent, almost irrational" attacks on it were "dangerous" because they refused to allow any contrary viewpoint and also affected the public perception of religion.


Having practiced these tactics for centuries it is little wonder they should attempt to accuse their opponents of the same. But then, no one is refusing them a contrary viewpoint, the airwaves, papers and other media have never been so alive with messages flowing from the churches and those that think themselves religious. If they choose to use their time spewing lies and hate against others then is it any wonder that the public perception is changing towards religion; for they are starting to see it for what it truely is.

26. Bible bashing dying out in Kansas

Comment #102395 by automath on December 22, 2007 at 3:31 pm

Does Phelps remind any one else of the preacher from Poltergeist?

It's always nice to be reminded of what religion does to people.

27. Clegg 'does not believe in God'

Comment #102171 by automath on December 21, 2007 at 11:37 pm

walk - I realized then that some people may actually need faith in order to face a sometimes scary world.


I suppose that depends on how you learnt to cope with fear.

... but the local bishop (her employer) has her scared to death that she's going to hell! Woe is me!


I'd worry more that he'll start telling her that she must leave you because you're a heathen!

28. Clegg 'does not believe in God'

Comment #102169 by automath on December 21, 2007 at 10:57 pm

quill - He doesn't believe in God, but his kids are being brought up Catholic?


That'll be so he can get them into a Catholic School, it's all the rage in Britain these days. All those pretending to be of middle class and higher must submit to the keeping up of appearences. (Even the non-religious can't often afford to go against the mores of our times, at least not openly.)

29. Sorry to disappoint, but it's nonsense to suggest we want to ban Christmas

Comment #102167 by automath on December 21, 2007 at 10:35 pm

In recent years I've seriously come to doubt that the Christians were even 'persecuted' under Roman rule. The cry of persecution is just a very effective means of bringing together some of the worst sentiments and behaviour that humanity has to offer. Of course, that's not to say that it doesn't happen and no doubt will countinue to happen, just that there are those that would build a worldview on falsehoods for their own gain, rather than attempt to seek the truth. An ideology that for centuries has done little more than persecute anyone and everyone, that differed from them in thought, word or deed, must certainly have come to understand some of the evolved morality we humans have and seek to play on it; like any good conman.

Maybe Britian is in need of a premier that doesn't talk with imaginary sky-pixies; maybe then, the years of destruction to education and science in Britian could be addressed, even reversed.

30. THE FOUR HORSEMEN - Available Now on DVD!

Comment #98989 by automath on December 15, 2007 at 5:40 am

The flock are the walls from which the fundamentalists and conmen hide behind - a human shield of outrage from the gullible and self-loathing.

31. What does atheism say about the purpose (or the meaning) of life?

Comment #98744 by automath on December 14, 2007 at 7:24 am

The 'endless' search for meaning is something that is part of an evolving life. The religions you need to worry about are those that already have the meanings and propose it as the final solution.

32. All worldviews are merely paradigms, narratives having no more inherent value than any other narrative.

Comment #98499 by automath on December 13, 2007 at 7:09 pm

Once the narratives are removed you'll still be left with the material world and that which emerges from it.!

33. A universe that follows 'laws' implies a 'law giver'

Comment #98497 by automath on December 13, 2007 at 7:06 pm

NaN. All it really requires is a moment of stability.

34. What are your qualifications to question religion anyway? Just who are you?

Comment #98496 by automath on December 13, 2007 at 7:05 pm

One doesn't need a qualification to ask questions.

What isn't to be questioned? Something that goes out of its way to avoid questions needs to be questioned all the more.

35. What is the role of free will to an atheist?

Comment #98494 by automath on December 13, 2007 at 6:58 pm

This so called free will that most experience is little more than a myth.

36. If you don't have religion, where do you find your sense of community?

Comment #98492 by automath on December 13, 2007 at 6:56 pm

In the people around me!

37. People who've experienced God KNOW that God exists

Comment #98491 by automath on December 13, 2007 at 6:53 pm

I once knew I was God! Does this mean I was?

38. What does atheism say about the purpose (or the meaning) of life?

Comment #98490 by automath on December 13, 2007 at 6:50 pm

Atheism has nothing to say on the meaning of life. It is a beginning from where one starts to find meaning in life itself.

39. How can the Earth be so perfectly suited for life by coincidence?

Comment #98488 by automath on December 13, 2007 at 6:43 pm

Life is found to be suited to its environment because it has evolved to be suited to that environment.

40. World History

Comment #98169 by automath on December 13, 2007 at 7:18 am

Is it really so difficult to see the link between Stalin's athiesm and his despotism


That would rest on the assumption that theism couldn't lead to despotism of any sort. This form of argument still rests on the presumptuous and intrinsically false claim that without god then anything is possible and that one can not be moral.

There are no mental gymnastics neccesary, most humans flock to what they know best. If they are brought up to be unquestioning faith-heads (and this is most certainly the type of subservient role that religion encourages in the masses), then it wouldn't take much for people experiencing hardship to pin their hope on anyone that promised them something better. Be it a man invoking gods or a man using hope, plenty and a better tomorrow.

41. Islam and the modern world don't mix

Comment #91630 by automath on November 28, 2007 at 6:19 pm

Well yes, Inayat Bunglawala would say that wouldn't he, he's one of the faithfully misplaced mohammedians.

You get called Islamophobic for pointing out the obvious these days. It is fast becoming a label for those that would oppose oppression by force.

42. Pupil defends teacher in Muhammad teddy furore

Comment #91625 by automath on November 28, 2007 at 5:40 pm

Says a lot about religion when a child knows better than its elders!

And as for the parents, with the threat of death or damnation hanging over them they'll more often than not, follow whatever some lunatic of a religious leader has to say.

43. Turkey probes atheist's 'God' book

Comment #91573 by automath on November 28, 2007 at 3:09 pm

Vineletric - I don't understand the Turks. The founder of modern Turkey was militantly anti theistic (literally).



When times are thought to be bad, some people will literally believe anything in order to give them the delusion of hope: Religion prays on this and is unfortunately selling what these people want and need to hear.

44. Turkey probes atheist's 'God' book

Comment #91570 by automath on November 28, 2007 at 2:58 pm

Just shows how bloody ridiculous and stupid religion is when its only defence is to claim sacred values and attempt to inflame the usual religious zealots emotions; this is surely a sign of its early warrior tribe origins. You can almost imagine them stamping their feet to the sound of loud drums as they circle the fire and with the feeling of the god still ringing through them as they set out to kill.

If it's inciting religious hatred they are worried about, they could just do away with or change the idiotic values of the religion, it must be the biggest cause of religious hatred going.

45. 'Muhammad' teddy teacher arrested

Comment #91266 by automath on November 27, 2007 at 8:56 pm

The more I read of Muslim reaction to the name Mohammed the more I get the sense that it was correct to name then Mohammedians. If ever there was a serious case of idol worship this is it, which as many have pointed out, is also accompanied by the usual religious hypocrisy.

46. Interview with Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Comment #80581 by automath on October 22, 2007 at 8:24 am

5. Comment #80370 by LoneStarTravis - "So I take it that Hirsi Ali is in favor of the war?"

Are you talking bout the liberation of Iraq? I'd have to read what she has to say on the matter before I decided if she though it was a good thing. Whatever her opinion, I certainly think it could have been conducted better than it has, but then most things we do, can usually be done better with hindsight.

47. Debate between Christopher Hitchens and Alister McGrath

Comment #79175 by automath on October 16, 2007 at 11:42 am

Swapping his old faith of atheism? I think, this is going to become extremely dogmatic extremely fast.

48. Debate between Christopher Hitchens and Alister McGrath

Comment #79169 by automath on October 16, 2007 at 11:26 am

Nice to see McGrath opening his speech with a straw man. He wasn't asked there to debate about atheism. Something he seems to have a rather large hang up about. I guess he'll use Hitchen's anti-theism to smear all atheists.

Logicel, you're not the only one that has such a reaction to McGrath. There again he is an odious little man who does nothing but misrepresent atheists at ever opportunity. I can certainly see why he decided that theism was closer to his ideals.

49. Teachers 'fear evolution lessons'

Comment #77484 by automath on October 9, 2007 at 12:09 pm

Here's another take on this situation.
http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/james_randerson/2007/10/the_origin_of_speciousness.html

Which points out that Prof Reiss' does not consider creationism or ID to be non-scientific. This comes from a passage from his own book.

50. Teachers 'fear evolution lessons'

Comment #76922 by automath on October 7, 2007 at 7:03 pm

I think this article shows the level of ignorance that science and it's teaching are up against in the UK.
http://education.guardian.co.uk/schools/story/0,,2184632,00.html

-o-o-o-o-

There are a lot of interesting opinions on here, but I do find them, and even my quickly penned points, to be missing the bigger picture.

I'm also finding it rather worrying that instead of trying to oppose creeping religious indoctrination. People are instead having a go at teachers and either wanting them removed or suggesting they leave. How is that going to solve anything? These teachers need support, not criticism for having the odds stacked against them.

PsyPro

Thankfully. I find that not all pupils take on such an attitude to learning.

BullShifter

Professor Michael Reiss is also an Anglican Priest, who has written a book for science teachers on how to address creationism in science lessons. There appears to be elements of the Discovery Institutes Wedge strategy in this thinking. It gives some credence to the myth that creationism is a valid theory.

I'm not convinced that his quote regarding an equal respect for all beliefs is anything but sincere. It is a very typical Anglican stance at this present time. One that is usually used to devastating effect when advancing ones opinion.

I share some of your concerns around the curriculum, and the pressure is just as intense at the secondary level. With an average of 35 children (lets not mistake these for students at a university) time constraints on achieving delivery of the curriculum in a satisfactory manner to all is to put it mildly a tough challenge.

I also share your fear that science can become mechanised in its delivery, a throw back to times when that little quote might have held more sway. Myself I had a ex-Professor of Physics that couldn't teach to save his life. I was lucky/self motivated enough to attain an 'O' level but I was one of three out of a class of about thirty that did.

On another note, just look at how science has been undermined at the primary level, maybe this is one reason for more believing in creationism up to the age of 11! I'm not shifting blame but it is an area that needs to be revisited. Science as just another 'way of knowing' is not going to help future generations, as I do think it is probably the most important 'way of knowing' we have at our disposal.

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