1. The God of the Bible is No Delusion!

Comment #13946 by JonG on December 20, 2006 at 8:21 am

474. Comment #13937 by down_under on December 20, 2006 at 7:14 am

D_U
If I wanted to feel as important as you suggest I imagine I wouldn't be a Christian, i'd be Bono or something...
hmm, another "Christian", probably not the best example...
But seriously, the road to self importance isn't made easy by taking the Christian route - what with selflessness, humility, personal sacrifice - i don't recomend it...

As for why, as I said, it wasn't a loaded question, I just wondered if you had an opinion or feeling on the matter. I actually gave you an opportunity to get away from the Bible.

Scientists - I can't verify all of the Non-atheist scientists so i'll have to take your word for it - they probably got one of those dodgy on line diplomas ;)

I'll not wish you a Happy Christmas - 1. Your an atheist and 2. (as far as i'm concerned) it's not a Biblical festival ;)

Have a good holiday,

cheers,

Jon

2. The God of the Bible is No Delusion!

Comment #13890 by JonG on December 20, 2006 at 1:38 am

438. Comment #13767 by down_under on December 19, 2006 at 10:50 am

D_U

I'm confused... (but you knew that right? :-) )

But read back your post and you'll see the following:

'My' scientists are wrong - 'yours' are right?
Yours are qualified, mine are not? (does that mean that all non-atheist scientists are not qualified to debate this argument?)

On the same tack, it's already been stated by someone on this thread that 'we' Christadelphians are 'loons' because we don't agree with established (un-Biblical I hasten to ad) Christian doctrines (Trinity, Hell, etc.) and yet you state that Scientists disagreeing is in the interests of progress! (well why do you think we reject 4th century Roman Council meetings..?) We also require the 'truth'.

And then you mis-represent me by partially quoting me and then following it with:
'The classic "it cant be dis-prooven so it must be real" argument,'

If you go back to the original point (post 422) I followed that statement with, ' it's not a reason for faith, but it is interesting...'

To my mind the Bible has been proven - and it didn't take any scientists or archeologists to do that. In fact, I think you'll find that the majority, if not all of the Christadelphians posting here would be quite happy with the statement that 'the Bible supports itself' - all this other stuff is interesting, but not essential to our faith. (i'll go into this aspect more thoroughly in another post)

The point is that we can all lift so-called historical evidence to build our arguments but it's not unusual to for that same evidence, years later, to be discredited in some way. Either it was dated incorrectly or it was just plain fake... Like Billy said, you'd have to be mad to believe that Babylon didn't exist now), but that wasn't the case until it was dug up relatively recently.

- but apparently 'we' are not even allowed to quote from the Bible now so what kind of debate is that..?

Well, if we're not debating anymore i'll state what seems obvious to me...
Scientists - Archaeologists - 'mankind' in general, changes it's mind...
Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not;

I believe that in time this will be 'proven' to be true. That's what I believe, i'm not asking you to believe it on the strength of this post alone, or at all - but there it is.

Anyway, I have a question for you which, sincerely, interests me - lets not worry so much about 'how' we got here for a while, instead can you tell me 'why' you think we're here?

(don't concern yourself that i'm lying in wait with an ambush of Bible quotes, i'm just genuinely interested...)

cheers,

Jon

3. The God of the Bible is No Delusion!

Comment #13507 by JonG on December 18, 2006 at 3:37 am

420. Comment #13417 by BillySands on December 17, 2006 at 2:46 pm

"The problem with josh 8:30-35 is probably that the book was written some time later than supposed."

Helllo Billy,

"Probably"..? What's the evidence for this?

And the Moabite thing...

Earlier in the Exodus it is recorded that anyone converting to the faith of the Hebrews was considered an hoem-born Jew. You were no longer classed as Moabite, Egyptian, etc...

This suggests then that, by being called by the name of their home nation, it was their allegience to God that was being questioned.

Jesus had two 'gentiles' in his lineage Ruth (as ou pointed out) and Rahab (described also as an harlot). Again, this foreshadows the acceptance of those who respond to God and display faith, from whatever background.

Even the Apostle Peter has to be taught to let go of his prejudices in this area and accept that God is willing to forgive the sin of any who will listen and change there lives to accomodate Him.

4. The God of the Bible is No Delusion!

Comment #13503 by JonG on December 18, 2006 at 3:23 am

413. Comment #13223 by down_under on December 16, 2006 at 9:27 am

"In the debate of the existance of God it is Science vs relgion NOT History, and Science has an overwhelming advantage"

D_U, Sorry, it's not as simple as science v's Religion because (as previously discussed at length - go to post 63) not all scientists are atheists!

As for archaeology, I personally have an interest in what is found in relation to the Bible, but i'm not going to rely upon it as a crutch to my faith.

Unfortunately getting archaeologists to agree is like trying to get scientists to agree (and theists for that matter) so one person having a preference for one time-line doesn't make it 'fact'.

Interestingly, no one has been able to categorically prove the Bible a fake as a result of archaeology.
Now, what are the chances of that given the amount of time that the Bible has been around, you'd have thought they'd have found something by now to indefinitly trip it up?

Again, it's not a reason for faith, but it is interesting...

5. The God of the Bible is No Delusion!

Comment #13501 by JonG on December 18, 2006 at 3:07 am

414. Comment #13226 by down_under on December 16, 2006 at 9:31 am

Why do no official Ancient Roman records mention Jesus?

D_U,

When you say 'official' do you not include the many (to my knowledge - maybe more) Roman historians (with no axe to grind - usually in the context of him being an annoyance to them) who record not only the existence but the doctrine of Jesus Christ..?

I have more information on this somewhere - i'll get back to you - I just wondered what you class as official?

6. The God of the Bible is No Delusion!

Comment #12506 by JonG on December 12, 2006 at 9:17 am

Oh dear, i'm still here and about to land myself in trouble (at home...)...

Anyway, briefly... your aguments against what i've said are based on the assumption that suffering should be avoided at all costs. Well i'm afraid that the message of the Bible (and not a popular one, granted) is that suffering is necessary... but...

1 Cor 15:19
19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

This passage and the context of the passage is that what Christ has to offer is better than what we enjoy (or not) now...

But you are right, they are old arguments - arguably the oldest there are..!

7. The God of the Bible is No Delusion!

Comment #12498 by JonG on December 12, 2006 at 7:53 am

Hello all... i'm back from a long weekend away from the computer but the fires are still burning I see.

Firstly, I must apologise to Billy - (re my 302 comments) my intention wasn't to dismiss or offend you with my Eric Idol quote - i hope you can see the funny side ;)

You made the point, through the verse of Mr Idle, that God made the nasty things as well as the nice -- well, the Bible tells us that also. I directed you to the first 6 chapters of Genesis, and again, I must apologise for the assumption that you had not/did not intend on reading them - you obviously do know them, although you obviously dismiss them.

My point then, again through the verse of Eric Idle, was that of Genesis... 'one foot in the grave...' ie: we are all going to die.
The mercy of God has nothing to do with us all living a nice life now!
God's mercy is displayed in that he has provided a 'bridge' between himself (He who is unapproachable) and mankind in the example, life, death, resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. In Him is our Salvation.

Job states that sometimes the evil of this world seem to prosper. It doesn't seem fair does it. Yet, in God's eyes none of us are perfect, but neither are we expected to be - we are only required to do our best. Now, that's different for everyone but it's something that everyone can do.

So, in summary, take from this that I don't wish you, or believe you will *ever* end up, in 'Hell'. It's not a concept that I subscribe to because there is no evidence for it in the Bible. But, we all (even us Christadelphians) have (at least) one foot in the grave! But we need to look past that and look forward to a future of promise.

Hebrews 11 shows us a wealthy man (Abraham) who enjoyed a long life, but looked for something more in the promises that God gave to him.

I too (endeavour) to look for the same promised land that *will* exist on *this* earth.

Hebrews 11
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

I know, from an atheists point of view I'm taking a lot for granted, (God exists, etc...) but I just wanted you to know why it is that i'm trying to defend my beliefs.

See you in a few days - too many late, late nights - i'm going to start rationing myself... :)

8. The God of the Bible is No Delusion!

Comment #12000 by JonG on December 9, 2006 at 5:35 am

292. Comment #11946 by BillySands on December 8, 2006 at 1:18 pm

To Quote Eric Idol..., etc...

Well, Billy, he didn't prevent you either, but I still don't see your point..?

To everyone else:

I think the point is that if God were around everything in the garden should be rosey..!

Do I have room for the first 6 books of Genesis here..?
Would Billy read it..?

Oh well, i'll quote Eric Idol,

'One foot in the Grave...'

9. The God of the Bible is No Delusion!

Comment #11857 by JonG on December 7, 2006 at 6:18 pm

275. Comment #11832 by S on December 7, 2006 at 2:14 pm

'The point of the petition is to prevent the one-sided indoctrination of the young that occurs with religion.'

Thats a pretty broard stroke don't you think?

I don't feel that I experienced any one-sided indoctrination but even if i had, what about the one-sided indoctrination that exists in other areas of belief, such as science and politics. Both equally as dangerous I would have thought.
For every religious nutter carrying a bomb presumably there is a scientific nutter giving out instructions to make it.

And, yes, extremes do exist in the world but since when did we organise blanket bans on that basis? On your rationale England would ban Soccer because some 'alleged' fans has taken to hooliganism!

To me it smacks of paranoid, restrictive, narrowmindedness - and I thought *we* had the copyright on that behaviour! ;)

Ahhh, i'm off to bed...

10. The God of the Bible is No Delusion!

Comment #11710 by JonG on December 6, 2006 at 6:11 pm

243. Comment #11696 by S on December 6, 2006 at 3:15 pm

It's interesting how many statements have been made regarding apparent contradictions in the Bible. How ironic then that the 'free thinkers' of this world are starting petitions against 'free thinking'..?!

Are you against education all-together or just religious education?

I have plenty of friends who were bought up in similar backgrounds to my own and *they* chose not to pursue it in later life just as i'm sure other kids don't grow up with the same political, social or scientific beliefs as the families they grew up in.

Having said that, if I were you, i'd change my tactics a little - you're going about this all wrong...
I think you may be drawing a bit *too* much attention, and maybe even sympathy towards the religious types...

Here's an example of what I mean...

In the New Testament (the Bible, I know, but bear with me...), in the book of Acts, a wise Pharasee, who was against the teaching of Christ, got up during a council meeting to *prevent* the disciples of Christ being killed for what they believed in. He knew it would only create a bunch of martyrs and he was smarter than that; this is what he said:


Acts 5
38 And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:
39 But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.



So, it's the same now really - and I know 2000 years later there are still a few knocking about, but if the earth is a squillion years old anyway, 2000 years is nothing. I reckon you should hold back a bit - it'll fizzle out in a few years for sure.