1. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #207914 by Kardashovel on July 10, 2008 at 9:44 am

As for the lions, could you spell it out for me a little?

Lions were routinely used in the "games" in the Colosseum. Christians were routinely persecuted. It does not seem a stretch to presume that they met lions for the pleasure of the sporting public. I don't know this one way or another, but what makes you say it did not happen?

Just curious.

2. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #207909 by Kardashovel on July 10, 2008 at 9:39 am

True, although Nero had a brilliant idea, which unfortunately didn't catch up with later rulers. In at least an episode he used christians as combustible for public illumination.

Your humor is just a little too dry for me, Decius... but I'm sure you and Stalin would have got on well. Do you praise his works too?

3. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #207906 by Kardashovel on July 10, 2008 at 9:35 am

No worries, Gregg.

Suppose we go along with this. How is this different to an argument about the "purest" form of Marxism? How does the effectiveness of the spread of Christianity tell you anything about the truth or otherwise of its content?

Or put another way, by a person that will nurse his hate and anger all the way to the grave:

argumentum ad populum

and

argumentum ad ignorantum

I think that if you follow the recent train of posts, beginning with Tyler's Comment #207815, you will see that I am not attempting to prove the truth of Christianity (whatever that is)... I am merely noting that the growth in popularity, in the face of drastic persecution and threat of death, proves that Jesus' words and approach were remarkably inspiring, and strongly indicates that He existed, whether as God or man.

If it's just a feel-good story, then why risk life and limb? If it was to save their souls in the next life, why choose Christianity instead of Mythraism, for example? After all, that religion encouraged you to kick ass and avoid being slaughtered by your adversaries.

The answer must be that these early Christians believed with all of their heart. ANd it wasn't because it was the state religion or because daddy said so. And it wasn't because Jesus promised to kick Cesar's butt. What does that prove? I don't know. To me it demonstrates the unique power of the Christian message among all other religions, monotheistic or otherwise.

Given that I believe in God for other reasons, it gives me strong affection for the Christian message. That's all.

4. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #207896 by Kardashovel on July 10, 2008 at 9:10 am

8832. Comment #207891 by irate_atheist

There's no need to tax your formidable intellect coming up with these scathing insults, I_A.

Why not take the easier path and just criticize the points I made in the post that got you all homophobic and bothered (like your friend, Gregg)?

5. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #207893 by Kardashovel on July 10, 2008 at 9:06 am

Elli, I cannot restrain myself from commenting that you have a most captivating avatar.

It seems that when you smile, the world does indeed smile with you.

6. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #207884 by Kardashovel on July 10, 2008 at 8:54 am

8827. Comment #207880 by irate_atheist

Turd-burglar.

7. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #207870 by Kardashovel on July 10, 2008 at 8:34 am

Gandhi found the same popularity nineteen centuries later when he engaged on a remarkably similar project.

Yeah. Note whom he credited for the inspiration.

And Christianity's eventual move to dominance was born out of Constantine's desperate attempts to keep the Empire together. Then, as now, it was primarily a political project.

That is true, hungarianelephant, and a point well taken. But I think that the damage began with Paul.

In any case, it is worth noting that Constantine chose the path of least resistance, and in spite of crucifixions, immolations, and lion feedings, Christianity spread through peaceful fellowship and the charismatic message that Jesus brought to the world. He showed the way, and as usual, we mortals lost the trail while bickering over who gets to wear the pointy hat.

8. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #207862 by Kardashovel on July 10, 2008 at 8:26 am

Durden:
I just remembered why I don't talk to you. For the n'th time, at least the second to you, my parents "indoctrinated" me as an atheist.

I do not believe in a 6000 year old earth, dimwit.

And if you need me to dig up evidence that Christianity in it's various forms is the most popular religion in the world, then I'm afraid that I have already wasted too many keystrokes on your drivel. When the time comes, please do not get a driver's license.

9. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #207847 by Kardashovel on July 10, 2008 at 8:09 am

Not as smelly as the dude in the photo.

10. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #207837 by Kardashovel on July 10, 2008 at 8:02 am

every civilsation has some "Messiah" complex/myth

And the Jews, like many others, thought that their Messiah would be a fierce liberator and a strong conservative leader.

It's interesting that, on the contrary, Jesus was extremely progressive. And while he did show his anger at the tables of the money changers in the Temple, he was remarkably restrained in the face of persecution and torturous public execution.

I'm going to assume that you've watched the Life of Brian... great movie. Suppose that Jesus' crucifixion, like Brian's, was exploited by men like Reg... do you suppose that the followers would risk death and persecution at the hands of their countrymen and the Romans, to follow Reg's teachings? The Life of Brian ended amusingly, with a flippant musical ditty. But what would have happened next had they continued the script? The formation of the world's most popular religion?

11. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #207814 by Kardashovel on July 10, 2008 at 7:38 am

I mean no offense, but your continued stalwart presence here, even after positing that ridiculous ice shield theory, made me think of this inspirational photograph: http://tinyurl.com/67ehmw

I suspect that the Reverend Dark would also find the photo very interesting... assuming the photo was taken in the morning, the northbound runner has persevered in spite of his southbound mutton stew having migrated to all points of the compass.

12. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #207802 by Kardashovel on July 10, 2008 at 7:29 am

Are you saying Jesus was just an average guy, Tyler?

13. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #207789 by Kardashovel on July 10, 2008 at 7:18 am

I, for one, am very impressed by your stamina, txpiper. You show the patience of a person with great faith, and I commend you for it.

However, I am a little concerned that you have tied your faith to a literal interpretation of scriptures that, while vetted by God, cannot be perfect since they are written in the language of the fallen.

I would council you to put your faith in the living, loving Christ, and look at the Bible as a glass through which we see darkly. I worry that if you should be persuaded that the earth is billions of years old, you will lose your faith because you put it in a book instead of God Himself. Could you please comment?

~~~

I mean no offense, but your continued stalwart presence here, even after positing that ridiculous ice shield theory, made me think of this inspirational photograph: http://tinyurl.com/67ehmw

14. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #195494 by Kardashovel on June 18, 2008 at 10:44 am

Steve

I'm going to do a Brian English on you.

You can't claim a time machine is of any use unless you can provide a logical mechanism by which a time machine can take you back to the origin of the universe. You failed months ago. Unless you can provide a mechanism (and "we haven't found it yet" isn't good enough), you can't use this excuse as an explanation.

To say that I failed implies that is what I was trying to do. I have no idea if my concept of God is correct, nor do I wish to prove it (I don't even think that is possible). I merely use it as my working model and see how it compares with available evidence. As I noted months ago, there are a number of proposed mechanisms for time-like loops that extend all the way back to the beginning of the universe. While having our grueling discussion, I learned about the work of Gott, which I think is the most interesting.

You like to play this game where you assert that I cannot talk about time travel or faster than light travel, unless I "show you a Tardis"... if I were insisting that God exists because of time travel, and that you must all believe this or suffer hellfire, then I would accept your assertion. But I never did that. I just answered questions about what I believe, Steve.

And, as for the "Brian English" technique, I believe that is to be applied when some troll constantly blathers on about "evilution" and your dead grandmother roasting in hell. I don't recall doing that sort of thing. You are very intelligent and knowledgeable, Steve, but you really can get hung up on the simple stuff at times.



~~~


Mesomodel

Steve, is it your intent that item #2 also prevents the infinite recursion of who designed the designer? If one accepts the premise that there exists a level of complexity which implies a designer and excludes all other possibilities, then this premise must also apply to the designer. Who designed the designer? How do you avoid infinite recursion?

I agree with Steve's conditions for accepting that something was designed. Regarding the second condition, and your query about infinite regression, that is where the time machine comes in handy for God. More on that in a second.

Steve gave his answer in Comment #195412, and since he does not believe in God, he had a simpler answer: the ultimate designer (presumably humans) must have evolved. End of regression. I agree that the ultimate designer (God), must have evolved. The complexity requirements cannot otherwise be resolved.

Parenthetically, I disagree with Steve that self-replication necessarily implies that there is no designer. Check out this robot: http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/may05/selfrep.ws.html. That is only the beginning. As our abilities improve with respect to nanotechnology design and fabrication, we will no doubt design much more interesting replicators. I remember hearing a fascinating colloquium about designing self-replicating robots whose purpose would be to occupy and convert a portion of a desert to solar collectors. They had a thorough analysis of the necessary chemistry and physics, but of course the design of the replicators was left as an exercise for the students. I think it is a bit narrow-minded to insist that replicators cannot have been designed.


To explain my conjecture about time traveling God, let me postulate that there are two time-like qualities to the universe (I only stop there for heuristic purposes): Let's continue to call the time that we experience "time", and let's call the other one "metatime". In early metatime, God was nothing but the barest seed of consciousness (if you could even call it that), which enabled the universe to create itself: http://prola.aps.org/abstract/PRD/v58/i2/e023501.

This feedback mechanism winds through metatime, constantly meta-altering the extant universe and the way that it evolves in time. Metawhile this happens, God is meta-evolving, from the barest self-referential itch, to a self-aware being (I AM), to an arbitrarily powerful and knowledgeable designer, the architect and adjuster of the universe that we experience. He meta-constantly rewrote the story to optimize the ultimate result, which is the being(s) at the end of time, or at the current moment in metatime... Himself.

15. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #195170 by Kardashovel on June 17, 2008 at 8:35 pm

Quine,

The answer is: yes.

16. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #195166 by Kardashovel on June 17, 2008 at 8:29 pm

Touche. I lost my place.

17. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #195162 by Kardashovel on June 17, 2008 at 8:22 pm

Why waste time fiddling with the genes when nature does that anyway?

Because nature isn't fast enough for God. He has a time machine, remember.

Do try to keep up, Goldy.

18. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #195160 by Kardashovel on June 17, 2008 at 8:18 pm

Dr. Benway,

Check out this picture I took of some friends at a natural arch in Tuscany called La Finestra:

19. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #195153 by Kardashovel on June 17, 2008 at 8:06 pm

Interesting. What a bunch-o-wackos you Brits are.

20. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #195146 by Kardashovel on June 17, 2008 at 7:49 pm

Interesting theory, Dr. Benway. What is the purpose of the crop circles?

21. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #195142 by Kardashovel on June 17, 2008 at 7:38 pm

Greetings, my Quaker Friend.

Perhaps it is true what you say... but would that rule out recognizing that something is designed even if we have no clue as to their methods?

Check out Goldy's crop circle... can we agree that it was designed? What was the method of craftsmanship?

22. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #195136 by Kardashovel on June 17, 2008 at 7:31 pm

But what if the object is capable of imperfect reproduction (given the necessary resources), and I can assure you ahead of time that it was designed. How would you go about proving that without relying on my assurances?

I guess Goldy's answer is that you look to see if the object's genome is incongruous with the data that we have about other life (such as whether you've got pig genes in a tomato).

But if the designer was sufficiently clever that they invented new genes to produce a radical shift from a proto-ape to a proto-human, then you can't rely on finding fig genes in the code, or some such.

I guess in that case you would need to show the common lineage, and then demonstrate that there is not enough time or intermediate species to explain the radically accelerated differentiation...

Or perhaps you could compare the genes of the human with an ancient sample from some fossilized marrow from the common ancestor. If the new genes are organized in some spectacular or unusual way, that would be evidence of tampering.

Do any of the renowned ID scientists work along these lines, or is it all just criticism of "macroevolution"?

23. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #195133 by Kardashovel on June 17, 2008 at 7:18 pm

Frankus,

The Church of the Dude?

24. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #195131 by Kardashovel on June 17, 2008 at 7:18 pm

So Goldy, who's making the crop circles, and how?

25. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #195130 by Kardashovel on June 17, 2008 at 7:17 pm

I figure that RTG isn't gonna take up the gauntlet, so I thought maybe we could seek a solution for him(her)...

Or perhaps a good argument why such an animal is extremely unlikely to exist... Otherwise, given the pace of our technical development, I wonder how long it will be before we are capable of creating such an object (being?).

26. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #195129 by Kardashovel on June 17, 2008 at 7:13 pm

You can't disprove design. You can only say if a designer is required to provide the complexity.

I agree that one cannot disprove design, and I am more interested in exploring Brian's question about how one would go about proving design.

It seems that the consensus here is that if an object has sufficient "irreducible complexity", yet cannot reproduce (complete with a mechanism for transcription errors), then it is designed... like Voyager.

But what if the object is capable of imperfect reproduction (given the necessary resources), and I can assure you ahead of time that it was designed. How would you go about proving that without relying on my assurances?

27. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #195125 by Kardashovel on June 17, 2008 at 6:56 pm

I'm slow on the draw tonight... multitasking.

28. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #195123 by Kardashovel on June 17, 2008 at 6:54 pm

I see you already answered me, Steve. You may want to correct your post #7927 which carries the opposite meaning of what you intended.

29. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #195120 by Kardashovel on June 17, 2008 at 6:51 pm

Do you think that the aliens would be able to determine that you are 100% naturally evolved, with a certainty?

How would they go about looking for evidence of tampering with your genetic code, at some point in the history of your genome?

I share Steve's amusement with that cartoon about the synthesis between evolution and creationism...

30. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #195115 by Kardashovel on June 17, 2008 at 6:45 pm

Suppose that the aliens are capable of advanced genetic engineering, as well as nanofabrication, so that they can design and construct cells and even organisms.

Do you think that, presented with a fine human specimen such as yourself, they could determine that you were evolved instead of designed?

31. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #195103 by Kardashovel on June 17, 2008 at 6:24 pm

So... not to be too pedantic, but how would any of you go about proving that a 1970 AMC Gremlin was designed, absent witness testimony or a conversation with the designer himself?

Or, put another way, suppose that you are an alien that finds the Voyager probe putting around in interstellar space. What would satisfy you as proof that it was designed?

32. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #195000 by Kardashovel on June 17, 2008 at 2:12 pm

At what point do we call design design. A beaver dam, a wasps nest?

A 1970 AMC Gremlin? All of these are the result, indirectly, of evolution through natural selection.

And they are all designed. It isn't that they just look that way, Steve. They are intentionally designed, and evolution is what brings about the designer(s).

33. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #194966 by Kardashovel on June 17, 2008 at 1:20 pm

Oh for heaven's sake, Steve. Think of all the poor electrons that you are needlessly torturing to come to grips with the idea that Brian simply called RTG's bluff.

IE: We are tired of the numb skull brigade setting fire to straw men that they call "evilution". While it can lead to amusing conjectures about levitating ice shields, it is ultimately less useful than squashing an ant instead of attacking the mound.

So... attack the mound. Gain their confidence by agreeing to take evolution off the table, and then ask the creationists for specific theories on how God did it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yrJkSOJK7w

Personally, I think that evolution is how God did it.

34. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #194866 by Kardashovel on June 17, 2008 at 10:45 am

I'm sure it's not the first time I've been trolled.

35. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #194864 by Kardashovel on June 17, 2008 at 10:41 am

RTG:

I would what? Worship Oprah? No.

I worship God.

36. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #194862 by Kardashovel on June 17, 2008 at 10:40 am

Eepist, you sly dog. PM me if you need some words of encouragement.

37. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #194860 by Kardashovel on June 17, 2008 at 10:39 am

I read in the papers that Aliens worship Oprah. Here, it's true:
http://www.weeklyworldnews.com/news/headlines_from_tomorrow/

38. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #194857 by Kardashovel on June 17, 2008 at 10:36 am

Who wants to play tic-tac-toe? I have some vicious opening moves!

39. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #194796 by Kardashovel on June 17, 2008 at 9:35 am

Nobody fucks with da Jesus.

40. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #194450 by Kardashovel on June 16, 2008 at 8:24 pm

I think I finally found a religion I can embrace with the full blessings of the Holy Spirit and my evolved sensibilities.

http://www.dudeism.com/

Who's with me? I'll make the White Russians. Cover my back from the Nihilists.

41. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #194329 by Kardashovel on June 16, 2008 at 3:49 pm

thewhitepearl:

remember that it was YOUR god who demanded that you not cast your pearls before the swine.

No one could possibly mistake you for swine. It's pearls before pearls.

42. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #194324 by Kardashovel on June 16, 2008 at 3:45 pm

There hasn't been the slightest hint of dialogue and nobody's brought any drinks to the party....

I did try... but the keg rolled down a flight of stairs while I was trying to keep my sides from splitting with laughter.

43. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #194243 by Kardashovel on June 16, 2008 at 2:48 pm

RED ALERT!

Podaar is a spy! I knew it. You just can't trust those crafty theists.

Wait a minute...

44. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #194172 by Kardashovel on June 16, 2008 at 1:46 pm

Al-Rawandi,

Well, in my dealings with you here I noted more than a few preconceptions about how theists think...

I guess I could wade through our discussions if you insist on my providing you with an example. But before I take the time, are you ready to assert that all of your thoughts and opinions are based on evidence and reason?

That would be a bold statement. Ironically I think it would also be a preconceived notion.

45. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #194165 by Kardashovel on June 16, 2008 at 1:36 pm

Hi Corylus. I made her a buttermilk panna cotta with fig preserves. I trust you are well.

~~~

Al-Rawandi,
This Material CD: http://tinyurl.com/6myv6z

I find it very unlikely that you've given up all of your preconceived notions.

46. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #194157 by Kardashovel on June 16, 2008 at 1:19 pm

Al-Rawandi,

While I have been very amused to read some of the attempts to support a literal interpretation of Genesis, I decline to participate. Honestly, how could I top the suspended ice membrane?

I'll tell you what. Let me sleep on it, and then I'll create a new user here and give it a shot.

Did you enjoy that Material CD I suggested?

47. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #194148 by Kardashovel on June 16, 2008 at 1:08 pm

Hi Goldy. How's the Alfa coming along?

48. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #194145 by Kardashovel on June 16, 2008 at 1:06 pm

The major thing to decide is whether the flood myths were roughly contemporary.

I don't think that is possible. These are all oral traditions, and calendars weren't so good 12k years ago.

49. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #194137 by Kardashovel on June 16, 2008 at 1:01 pm

Thou shalt not put the Lord thy God to the test, right?

I once proposed a test to a fellow believer that also claims to speak with God. I suggested that we attempt to pass a message through prayer, and confirm later via email if it had been received.

He prayed on the matter, and then refused. He said that God told him, "No."

It is a mystery to me why God does not allow concrete, reproducible evidence of His existence. Perhaps it is we who are being tested.

50. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #194128 by Kardashovel on June 16, 2008 at 12:55 pm

I'm good. Business is booming, we're hiring. It's kept me off the boards, tho.