1. The Trolls Among Us

Comment #223670 by DjSouthPaw on August 3, 2008 at 5:25 am

Looks like /b/,s Anonymous is resuming their war on Scientology.. the call to arms sounded on the image boards yesterday again =)

some are conflicted.. many want to do more Protests, others want violence and hacker tactics instead of protesting

2. The Trolls Among Us

Comment #223133 by DjSouthPaw on August 1, 2008 at 2:28 pm

I've actually been on /b/ once or twice. It's almost a universal, brought up on forums of games and youth

and i consider it some form of Social experiment.. sometimes it's really scary what they come up with, it can be upsetting.. but i've been mocked for remarking on the immorality of some of their jokes, and been de-sensitised to some of it

They are the MAIN inventors of Internet meme's these days

my Favorite one :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rickroll

they almost consider themselves a Collective by all posting as "Anonymous"

Anyone in to star-trek may draw a good analogy to the Borg

3. Muslims outraged at police advert featuring cute puppy sitting in policeman's hat

Comment #203809 by DjSouthPaw on July 3, 2008 at 4:42 pm

Found the answer to this "outrage", and the basis for it

ridiculous as it may be :/

http://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/dogs.htm

( and yes, i know it's a bit shaky to use Christian anti-islam information... but it seems to answer this question at least )

4. Dawkins on Darwin

Comment #202186 by DjSouthPaw on July 1, 2008 at 2:28 am

Cheers Richard! =)

your lectures, documentaries and TV appearances are more entertaining and fascinating then anything else you'd find in the media

how about making a DVD box collection, containing all your work infront of cameras? =)

5. Aliens need Christ's redemption, too

Comment #201705 by DjSouthPaw on June 30, 2008 at 5:49 am

I remember southpark doing an episode where they relocate ethiopians to another planet with intelligent beings, and Christian missionaries funded by Pat Robertson,s TV donations, following them to offer salvation to the aliens


called = "starvin marvin in space"

6. Should We Rid The Mind of God? A Debate

Comment #198434 by DjSouthPaw on June 23, 2008 at 11:53 pm

He makes a really good point in the first part though!.. the initial reason for doubting all theology for me. was people claiming there was a "why?" that applied to the existence of the universe , instead of just how

it's good pointing out that there is something childish and immature in the way we think that the universe owes us comfort

7. Award-winning comedian George Carlin dies

Comment #198048 by DjSouthPaw on June 23, 2008 at 5:29 am

RIP George Denis Patrick Carlin ( think thats his whole name? :o )

A Great man that could make you laugh and think at the same time..

8. Is God a Delusion? Atheism and the Meaning of Life

Comment #196049 by DjSouthPaw on June 19, 2008 at 8:47 am

i thought McGrath was a very good debater for an apologist, when he talked to Dawkins

but equating The term "virus of the mind" to actual viruses instead of a meme, witch it obviously is all about, just seems like Word-twisting and dishonesty!

9. In God's Name

Comment #182755 by DjSouthPaw on May 21, 2008 at 12:14 am

hmm

this documentary was making me angry, until i saw the protest against the mosque

lets undermine their anti-homosexual rantings as hate speech and let them do their anti-Islam protests since it's only a bashing of ideas after all? =)

10. In God's Name

Comment #182749 by DjSouthPaw on May 20, 2008 at 11:42 pm

put these people in a mental institution


turning in to a pillar of salt "witch really really happened"

for fuck sake

i want theism within this century to be listed as a mental condition, or at least this fundementalism

11. Teenager faces prosecution for calling Scientology 'cult'

Comment #182744 by DjSouthPaw on May 20, 2008 at 11:29 pm

This ballsy 15-year old kid deserves a fucking medal.

yes, indeed

i wish someone would back that kid up and make a big case out of it.. make them prove to that kid and his lawyers that it is NOT a cult by bringing L Ron Hubbard in to the equation and the "fair game" policy and all that noise

me, as having grown up with ADHD.. Scientology is very very annoying in that they want to stop drug research.

we ACTUALLY have a Scientology nut on the Swedish Board of people who decide what drugs that make it onto the market and what doesn't

12. Non-religious summer camps develop niche

Comment #182740 by DjSouthPaw on May 20, 2008 at 11:21 pm

Nova you just restated what i said, but with more words then i did

i do indeed think God's existence is equal in probability to fairies ( less then 1% chance )

but i will not go so far as to say that it fits in to the same technical agnosticism i apply when i think my dinner table is made of wood, and that it's solid.. thats taking it to far in my opinion


By the way, i'm off now to an interview and test for a school, applying for the education of a Sound technician

( funded by the Swedish Missionary Church ) oh the horror, they forbid alcohol

so that will be my 3:d hand choice of school

13. Non-religious summer camps develop niche

Comment #182566 by DjSouthPaw on May 20, 2008 at 2:03 pm

Epinephrine said:

We can probably chalk this up to differences in terms of definitions? Do you agree that one can influence the belief patterns (belief and non-belief) of a child through experience?

as for a child's belief in god, i would not tell them what is more reasonable to believe,( at least i hope i wouldn't )

would probably go for an explanation for why i don't believe in it, short and sweet. if they have questions. give more reasons and answer the questions

that way you can still talk about belief in a god, and why YOU think it is not sound to have a theist belief, but not to make a lecture out of it

don't know what i would start with really.. if i had a son or a daughter, i would have Tv evenings with them from a young age in front of the Discovery channel when there are no cartoons on, hopefully catch some images of space and do some explaining . give them a leg up in science at school

take a personal interest when they learn evolution and help them with it. explain further and make sure they understand it to understand it fully, while wanting comparative religion taught in schools, well ( as it is in Sweden fortunately)

that should pretty much make them immune to religion.

in America how ever.. thats a tougher question =).
I would probably have to discuss the role religion plays as the only game in town when it comes to Spirituality. and feeling of something grander then oneself, and that religion isn't needed for that, and in my view demeans the role ( rant about the beauty of science )


when i think about it. i would probaby fail as a father with that program ;P

14. Non-religious summer camps develop niche

Comment #182563 by DjSouthPaw on May 20, 2008 at 1:48 pm

Stew282:

I think you and DjSouthPaw were basically saying that you agreed with the concept of the summer school as long as there wasn't a forcing of opinions (indoctrination?) on the kids instead of encouragement for them to learn to think for themselves. Unfortunately, to me at least, it seemed from your postings that you had made the assumption that this was the case from the article.

not at all against this sort of activity, i think it's wonderful if those kids get to learn all the good things that are simply needed to understand science, probability and logic thinking as a basis for making the right decisions later on in life both when it comes to beliefs and actions, whatever those may be

Epinephrine:

And lastly, yes, I think DJSP and I were both simply being cautious, not trying to condemn the summer camp without evidence. Glad to be back on your good side :)

well i have to admit i was a bit fueled by the fact that i though i had been called a moderate or sympathizer with religion, that didn't sit to well with me and i took it as a bit of a personal insult and had to win the discussion i felt ;)

that was the underlying start of the disagreement though. the need to be rigorous and not include wild speculation or personal bias when teaching kids about things you say to be true, like the nature of god

much like your vampire example... that exemplifies what i mean

15. Non-religious summer camps develop niche

Comment #182551 by DjSouthPaw on May 20, 2008 at 12:36 pm

*sigh*.. this will also take several lines =/

There is no indication in the article that this is being done or that kids are not encouraged to think for themselves. You are simply making and unfounded assumption in order to establish your straw-man here

the article says what exercise is being done to teach kids for example about the Russel's teapot arugument.. but it doesn't specify how the adults do it, what i was saying is that HOW they say it. matters.

witch i then followed up on and specified examples that should have been easy enough to spot and determine that my straw men are actually possible ones, neither of us know how it's actually been said

counselors tell the kids about different invisible creatures that live in the camp and then challenge the campers to prove that they don't exist. In some cases, it's a pair of unicorns, in other cases, a dragon. In each instance, the campers are told they can't see, touch or taste the creatures.

my point there is. HOW did they tell the kids. thats the key word. how

...drawing a false comparison between this Camp Quest and catholic child abuse.

what i was doing was comparing the way my father portrayed the church in the worst possible light.. and if the camp quest people were to do it the worst way imaginable, it would be a fair analogy

i don't know how they say it. and i suspect neither do you. The difference is that i'm saying that IF thats the case it's bad... i made no claim that they are indoctrinating kids, i expressed a concern if about if they were or not. and you're claiming without knowledge (to my suspicion) that they aren't

I get no such feeling from this one.

feelings are about as useful to me as personal revelation when it comes to determining truths mate

16. Non-religious summer camps develop niche

Comment #182543 by DjSouthPaw on May 20, 2008 at 12:05 pm

well Nova, it's about being technically agnostic. the likely-hood of God being reduced to that of russel's teapot or fairies

technical agnosticism to avoid being hypocritical when calling theists deluded for claiming certainties about god and god,s will

that doesn't make you Agnostic on the fence sitting

17. Non-religious summer camps develop niche

Comment #182538 by DjSouthPaw on May 20, 2008 at 11:49 am

Epinephrine said:

Not to be rude, but it seems like you are the one missing the point. I said precisely that I will teach the fallacies and flawed thinking of religion. What I won't do is teach her that there is no god.

I only teach her truths, not what I believe.

< The Southpaw Seal of Approval >

18. Non-religious summer camps develop niche

Comment #182533 by DjSouthPaw on May 20, 2008 at 11:08 am

#182527 by Stew282

People (Epinephrine, DjSouthPaw) appear to be falling into the trap the religious types so love.

Guys, ATHEISM HAS NO DOCTRINE! - It is impossible to indoctrinate someone not to believe in something unless you accept the premise that that thing exists. You cannot "teach atheism". You can teach religion and indoctrinate religious belief. You can indoctrinate someone to believe the falsity of evolution.

you can't teach atheism. but you can teach militancy, and if you do that to kids 10years old. then you're doing it wrong.. if you tell kids what to think about religion. instead of telling them to think for themselves. just like my dad learning me to call Priests pigs by the age of 4 because he had been beaten by catholic priests in his irish upbringing and never finished school because of it

i'm ALL for conversational intolerance, Disrespect of Theism to the highest degree, i have NO sympathy for any clergy and their personal delusions

but i will not say that there is "no wrong way" to teach children to be free thinkers. and this is when you fail to live up to that title and make them instructed thinkers in a specific way !

19. Non-religious summer camps develop niche

Comment #182526 by DjSouthPaw on May 20, 2008 at 10:48 am

#182524 by jdb

DjSauthPaw,

I wasn't suggesting that we should indoctrinate children with atheism! Far from it. I was just pointing out how the good reverend offered "not completely neutral" as a criticism.

Anyone can guess that CampQuest will probably have some localized charge fluctuations, but remain neutral on average. I'm sure, however, that this pales in comparison with the utterly ionic character of the theistic camps, which most certainly fail the "neutrality" condition that the good reverend has put forth.

fair enough ye. sorry for making assumptions =)

[sarcasm]
a man in holy orders being a Hypocrite?, thats not possible is it? [/sarcasm]

20. Non-religious summer camps develop niche

Comment #182514 by DjSouthPaw on May 20, 2008 at 9:59 am

the more i think about it. the more i see a fallacy in my own reasoning since it is biased by my almost completely secular upbringing and surroundings

Epinephrine, i think you've got the right idea 100%

if she will be confronted with fallacious arguments used against her, things she cares about, ( pro choise, science, education )The right thing to do is to see to it that she has heard equal or the same arguments, and knows how vacuous they are

i might even go so far as to teach concepts like (comfort,amount of believers,authority does not = truth-value), and drawing distinctions between disrespecting people, and evaluating ideas, theories and propositions.. for example the catastrophe of the "islamophobia" word.

no doubt offending religious people offends them to their deepest core if truly religious.. but there is no room in todays society to be gentle and over-respectful about it ( at least not in north America or in the UK )

21. Non-religious summer camps develop niche

Comment #182492 by DjSouthPaw on May 20, 2008 at 8:49 am

#182485 by jdb

"I'm pretty sure the hundreds (thousands?) of theistic summer camps have highly questionable "neutrality." "

fighting indoctrination with indoctrination doesn't seem like a moral high-ground to me

if you'll excuse my analogy, it reminds me of that Jesus camp director saying that "well islam is getting holy warriors. we should to"


Btw.. are there normal [ quote ] [ / quote ] preflixes on this forum or?

22. Non-religious summer camps develop niche

Comment #182489 by DjSouthPaw on May 20, 2008 at 8:38 am

well, in either case i would just recommend teaching the logical conclusions a child of that age, could make, and understand for him/herself and see if it picks up on things like "fairies aren't provable not to exist" at say age 10. they will get the point for sure. and then generalizing it towards all things that can't be regarded in any other then an agnostic way ( such as god ), although i would be careful making that connection the first thing i do. teach the rules of reasoning and Logic separate from it's implications, and let them try to figure them out first, before painting that picture

for me.. it's the difference between saying:

"see?. since fairies can't be proven to exist. thats the same argument you can say to Christians about god"

and:

"see?. there are many thing that can't be proven to not exist, like this fairy example. This doesn't mean that they become more likely.. so be careful when people claim to know things they can't possibly know"

The latter being the most desirable in my opinion

23. Non-religious summer camps develop niche

Comment #182472 by DjSouthPaw on May 20, 2008 at 7:51 am

still not sure what i'm going to do when and if i do get kids, religion is so unpopular and dead in Sweden, that by merely mentioning my resentment towards it might cause my kids to seek religion out of pure reversed Psychology =D

24. Non-religious summer camps develop niche

Comment #182464 by DjSouthPaw on May 20, 2008 at 7:34 am

"In one exercise, counselors tell the kids about different invisible creatures that live in the camp and then challenge the campers to prove that they don't exist. In some cases, it's a pair of unicorns, in other cases, a dragon. In each instance, the campers are told they can't see, touch or taste the creatures.

The point is that a belief isn't automatically valid just because it can't be proven wrong. The exercise is supposed to help kids who don't believe in God prepare for questions from their peers who ask them to prove a higher power doesn't exist."


hmmm while this is well and good for logic and rational thinking, one does not want to get kids to go and start questioning other kids beliefs without there being a religion topic going on in the playgrounds ( not a likely scene ? )

Also, i don't think that they should be taught the arguments and counter-arguments like if they were going to go around debating preachers or something. This is what the Christians do to their kids when it comes to answering evolution with their non-sense

does it matter that the other side is based on lies and Dogma.. and we stand on reason and rationality, and evidence and science?. These camps from what i've read here seem like training ground for the next Christopher hitchens speak-a-likes

should they not be taught comparative religion as "cultural stories and myths" instead?. No mentioning of it's truth value, but simply teach kids that not holding any of those beliefs is OK, and justifiable. And THEN offer those who wonder about how to defend their atheism with the tools to do so

if they have concluded on some sort of belief or absence there of

lets not "create" militancy from an early age?. lets make kids agnostics, tell them why it's a reasonable starting point and the importance of scepticism in all things and the roll intuition plays in every day life etc

(I'm very militant as an atheist myself FYI )


Edit: i live in Sweden though, i could have under-estimated the need for kids to have belonging with others that think like them. But i would like to be sure it's their own thoughts, not something instilled by their parents ( the atheism and anti-religion that is.. not science, reason and critical thinking )

25. Philippe Starck: Why design?

Comment #182414 by DjSouthPaw on May 20, 2008 at 3:32 am

I liked the talk, once i got past the French and my giggle had settled

as i understood it ( or as far as i did ), the Angle of View he's talking about relates both to our development from using our mind for selfish and self-sustaining reasons?.. and that we need to let our
eyes rise more upward, to look ahead with the improvement of civilization in mind ?

And he seems to re-inforce Richards point of view, that we need to take the poetry of nature witch is science, with the utmost seriousness and see it not only as a mean of creating things for our benefit.. but live by the lessons learned by it, and proceed to grow away from superstition


Did i misunderstand the speaker, or?

26. On Fitna, the Movie

Comment #178630 by DjSouthPaw on May 11, 2008 at 7:18 pm

Wilders has done more damage than good with his movie, Fitna

i saw it, and it is as they say an anti-immigrant movie in my opinion.. the movie takes a good subject and spins it into immigration rates in the Netherlands.

Political islam must be fought and undermined in the middle east, and in the secular society when Muslims bring that ideology with them and show extreme intolerance. But to say that all Muslims hold that belief ( all though the lack of it doesn't arrive from Islamic orthodoxy ) would be wrong and a vile generalization