1. The Miracle Workers

Comment #73187 by gordon on September 24, 2007 at 11:42 am

Hillary, don't do it! Reach out to Homer instead. He's more intelligent!

2. Honest Mistakes or Willful Mendacity

Comment #68232 by gordon on September 6, 2007 at 12:51 pm

Just got in from work. I've been seething all day since listening to the Today programme this morning. I was so angry I hit my hand with a hammer and have the blood blister to prove it! Cornwell cannot have read the God Delusion or if he did he either misunderstood or deliberately twisted it's meaning for his own ends. I've never been so upset by an interview before. A little more time would have allowed Richard to take him apart with his (Cornwells) wanton use of presumed quotes and references. Is Cornwell anxious for this type of publicity? Is he desperate for attention? What the hell was his point? One can understand someone questioning a position but to come out with such blatant misrepresentation was absolutely unforgivable. I'm still pissed off tonight!

3. Honest Mistakes or Willful Mendacity

Comment #68231 by gordon on September 6, 2007 at 12:50 pm

Just got in from work. I've been seething all day since listening to the Today programme this morning. I was so angry I hit my hand with a hammer and have the blood blister to prove it! Cornwell cannot have read the God Delusion or if he did he either misunderstood or deliberately twisted it's meaning for his own ends. I've never been so upset by an interview before. A little more time would have allowed Richard to take him apart with his (Cornwells) wanton use of presumed quotes and references. Is Cornwell anxious for this type of publicity? Is he desperate for attention? What the hell was his point? One can understand someone questioning a position but to come out with such blatant misrepresentation was absolutely unforgivable. I'm still pissed off tonight!

4. A Matter of Faith

Comment #64921 by gordon on August 22, 2007 at 11:36 am

I have noticed the sad fact that, when a woman becomes an atheist/makes statements regarding God, she quickly becomes a hate figure. I read a lot about Madelyn Murray-O'Hair. She was given a hard time. Men are often 'respected' for a radical belief but women rarely are. Considering the press position in the States, it's not surprising that Julia Sweeney gets it in the neck. Maybe she should come and live in the UK, we even accept and relish Australian feminists with strident views here. Sorry Germaine

5. Interview with Richard Dawkins

Comment #63860 by gordon on August 16, 2007 at 12:53 pm

Darwin 2,
Are you Spinosa resurected?

6. Our Lives, Controlled From Some Guy's Couch

Comment #63430 by gordon on August 14, 2007 at 5:48 am

42. Perfect

7. Saudis to build their own version of Eden Project

Comment #63429 by gordon on August 14, 2007 at 5:46 am

America prioritises health care? In which state is that? Seems to me that capitalism is the state religion in both these countries, or at least one of the religions. There are poor in Saudi despite its wealth but the poor exist in droves in the US too. Let the desert bloom with gardens instead of mosques!

8. Saudis to build their own version of Eden Project

Comment #63395 by gordon on August 14, 2007 at 4:29 am

Fanusi,

Like I said, it's better than opening a new mosque and it may open a few minds as well. Good luck to them. Remember, the US has that bloody awful Creation Museum by Ken Ham and his accolites. Who is setting the best example?

9. Saudis to build their own version of Eden Project

Comment #63367 by gordon on August 14, 2007 at 3:13 am

BAEOZ,

No you are correct. I know this as I have been there and felt the full weight of the arguement. Should be interesting.

10. Our Lives, Controlled From Some Guy's Couch

Comment #63362 by gordon on August 14, 2007 at 3:04 am

Some mornings I get up and feel as if my brain was in a vat all night. Is this feeling universal or just down to the ale?

11. Saudis to build their own version of Eden Project

Comment #63359 by gordon on August 14, 2007 at 3:01 am

It will be interesting to see how much energy is used in the manufacturing and running of this project and if it will be oil powered. Despite the abundance of sunshine in Saudi, there is little uptake of any power from this source. Still, it's better than building another mosque.

12. CNN Debate on Koran in Toilet

Comment #60212 by gordon on August 1, 2007 at 10:19 am

When I was at college I remember some graffiti on the toilet wall which read
"Trust in thee Excalibur not to make your next appearance in this stretch of water". I've been wary of myths ever since.

13. Don't eat at the Outback Steakhouse on Route 3...

Comment #59188 by gordon on July 28, 2007 at 3:30 am

Spinoza,

I also signed up to the Brights just to get e-mails of events etc. However, I am extremely uncomfortable with the name and I don't like belonging or endorsing a group in any case so I will be binning my form. It smacks of a utopian dream which I do find creepy as well as an impossibility. I prefer to plough my own furrow.

14. Don't eat at the Outback Steakhouse on Route 3...

Comment #59027 by gordon on July 27, 2007 at 2:35 am

Hmmm. Did he have humour removal operation when he was a youth? I actually felt embarrassed for him. Watching made me squirm. I hope in his day job he isn't a paediatrician or gynaecologist, which would be creepy. As for Dawkins being my leader, I don't have nor want one thank you. I don't belong to a party or faith or anything else but the animal kingdom and I resent being placed in a box my some moron in a silly cap. There are a lot of Americans who discuss on this site so the lack or irony thing can't be an American stereotype, it must just be small clusters of Muppets who are afflicted by this. We should show his mother this video so she can give him a good slap and tell him to get a girl/boyfriend to take his mind off the good book. Mind you, she was probably part of his indoctrination process.

15. Tinkering with Humans

Comment #55934 by gordon on July 13, 2007 at 1:08 am

Roach,

I agree we (as a species) should outgrow our Darwinian past; it's just that I do not see it happening in any meaningful numbers. The people in control of the planet are Darwinian driven. Great thinkers can, at times, step aside from this position but they have no control (as can not so great thinkers). The chaps (and they are mostly men) who control the planet are by enlarge either traders ruthless in their chosen field or Dictators as warrior kings, enslaving their people. Most scientists have their head down, busily engaged in their work but have little say in the resulting use. Others use science as another useful technology to favour their lifestyle. I cannot, as a group see us developing as quickly as the technology.

On the plus side, Gordon Brown has stopped the development of Super Casinos here in the UK, a tax on the poor if ever there was one. So you see, there is a glimmer of hope.

16. Tinkering with Humans

Comment #55422 by gordon on July 11, 2007 at 4:08 am

Rtambree

"The way that we look back today at slavery, racism, and genocide with disgust, is how I think future generations will look back at our time and ask "How can humans living in 2007 think it was right that some people are so obscenely wealthy while millions die from preventable diseases".

This is because our definition of morality changes. However, there are many who would like to return to the days of slavery albeit better dressed and not as smelly. The few thinkers with what could loosely be termed and altruistic inclination or a bias toward compassion for the most part avoid power. This makes them weak. I read Richard Dawkins say that trying to get free thinkers and atheists together is like trying to herd cats. Capitalism is our religion now. Even here in the UK, Gordon Brown has to pander to the rich whilst using underhand and stealth taxes to redistribute wealth, quietly, like a drug dealer down a dark alley. Whereas once our artists and writers set the pace and agenda for reform and highlighted our humanism, nowadays they are in the grip of the system, selling novelty items for high prices like Damien Hirst's diamond encrusted skull. Art galleries have become shopping malls.

I have a regard for Bill Gates. Just think of the power he could buy but he has elected to give much of his money away without seeking political office. I don't see many others doing likewise and I don't see a group giving direction or definition of what could be achieved.

17. Tinkering with Humans

Comment #55403 by gordon on July 11, 2007 at 3:00 am

Bonzai,

'Well it should not be accepted and indeed many people don't. That's why many people continue to fight for a more just, more equitable world.'

Where are these people? Two thirds of the planet are simply trying to put food on the table. The Religious leaders are trying to control the people putting food on the table and milk them for cash. Most science (and scientists) and science establishments, outside of a few universities are in hoc to large corporations. Ninety percent of politicians in the developing world are corrupt beyond imagination. Many politicians in the developed world outside of accountable democracies are similarly corrupt. Many politicians in the developed democracies are in the grip of the faith 'interminable growth' no matter what the cost in terms of the planet or social cohesion even if they aren't corrupt. To whom are we looking for leadership? Al Gore? I don't think so, he and his boss failed in power once and he shouldn't get a second chance. Fox news? Religious leaders, charlatans all. Communism? Failed dogma and now turned to Gansta Capitalism.

There is always a difference between the pursuit of science for knowledge and the use of science. Whilst science has been put to great use in feeding and nurturing most people, it also regularly abused. For instance, here in the UK there is a great animosity to genetic tampering with food. I myself have great misgivings. It's not that I am afraid of the science, the 'Frankenstein food' aspect if you like; it's the people using the technology that worry me. If a crop is manufactured to improve value, taste and resistance to chemicals etc for the purpose of making food cheaper and increase crop yields, improves the soil and bio-diversity, then it obviously has to be a good idea. Similarly, creating rice that gives much needed vitamins to third world residents in the absence of anything similar in their diet is a no-brainer. Unfortunately it does seem that many of the advances are purely to increase reliability on fertilisers and pesticides produced by the manufacturers of the genetically altered seed and to make buyers have to return year after year to the same manufacturers for a return crop. These 'Zombie' crops are infertile, so, whereas third world farmers would always keep a portion of the harvest for next years sowing, now they have to either buy again from the suppliers, or, they have to buy a chemical to activate the seed. Profit first, ethics second.

We live in a society which promotes greed. One is measured by wealth. Celebrity culture is all and holds others in thrall. Our pop stars trail around the sub-continent to pick up cute black babies to salve their conscience and decorate their houses. Our artists have become media hogs and retail barons. Their work is about themselves, endlessly promoted. When they are offered designer babies they will be thrilled at the prospect and jump at the chance. This will perpetuate the advantages of wealth. Some writers buck the trend, as do some politicians, mainly; it has to be said, from the western parts of Europe. Maybe true atheists like Henri Bergsen (see other threads) who define morality as a faith will grasp the opportunity for eternal existence knowing this is all we have?

My proposition is that there will be no line drawn. Unless we close the distance between rich and poor before this happens, the gap will get wider exponentially. Maybe climate change will thin the ranks and remove some of the problems; this seems to be the Bush administration's view.

There is discussion but it is mainly underground. Ninety nine percent of the world media is privately owned by the people who would want to perpetuate wealth division. There are a few media outlets who list toward intelligent debate (and yes I would list the BBC in this sphere), but most are dumbed down to serve as a balm.

So I ask again, where is the movement toward a just and fairer world? As it has never existed, what makes you think we can achieve it in the future?

18. Tinkering with Humans

Comment #55304 by gordon on July 10, 2007 at 2:04 pm

Roach,

I hail from what was a very poor mining village in the North of England. Looking back, most of the northern mining and industrial towns and villages were culturally deprived and deliberately so. Workers were shipped in to a new mine (mill, steelworks, take your pick) to create a workforce and to service the mine, nothing else. It was so bleak. Whether they were financially rewarded or not and they certainly weren't at first, life was hard and cultural awareness was not encouraged, nor was longevity after a productive spell.. That seems to be the case for many third world villages now. They cannot have what we expect as we cannot all be on top of the pile and we don't want to give it them, at the possible cost of us not having it (whatever 'it' is). Obviously wealth and comfort. Imagine if tomorrow someone discovered a method to enable humans to extend their lives two or three hundred years and it was feasible to use the drug/solution/magic potion but obviously difficult to make and expensive. Who would get it? Presumably it would go to those that could pay, like many health care solutions that exist now. It wouldn't be shared so should those who are left out accept this? Health divisions and depravations are accepted by enlarge now so why would this be any different? Are the underprivileged more connected now or does the rise in communications and technology push the have-nots even lower? Most drug companies are researching and manufacturing drugs for the top ten percent of humanity. Simple cures for the most devastating diseases are already available but are not distributed so it's hard to believe a magic pill will make much difference. Not many rich people die of AIDS now, only the poor.

The gap between the super rich and the poor is already astronomical and getting wider. This is already happening. We are crossing the line on a daily basis. If you are on the wrong side of the divide and have the intelligence to see it, what are you going to do? Fight for your rights or try to be accepted in the higher group? As technology escalates, only a few will understand and begin to manipulate the changes. By the time an ethical decision is made (by who?) it is already moot. The super rich will benefit faster under our current systems. The question is not what we can do about it but who will do anything about it .

19. Ten Politically Incorrect Truths About Human Nature

Comment #55079 by gordon on July 10, 2007 at 1:15 am

AtheistAcolyte

Personal anecdotes help us relate to the arguments. They are very rarely stated as proof. They can however lead to a hypothesis, which, if reasonable and rational can lead to a similar feeling or position with others. If it cannot be corroborated then as you say it is so much noise. Nothing wrong with noise. It's just a matter of wading through it.

As for polygamy, in Yemen (where I spent time) it is rife, less so in the more educated areas like the 'old Southern' protectorate. Most of the time the arrangement is male driven for obvious reasons. Most of the wives dislike each other and treat the others offspring as rivals. It certainly does lead to an inordinate number of 'loose' males wandering about with nothing else to do but sign up for a cause. This, coupled with little employment is a dangerous mix. It is a pre-Islamic tribal way, signed up by the prophet (blessed be his trousers) to keep things from getting out of hand and sanctioned by god.

20. Tinkering with Humans

Comment #55076 by gordon on July 10, 2007 at 12:55 am

Roach,

Do we not already have engineering? Will we not engineer out disease if the opportunity arrives. In two hundred years this discusion will be academic? The more we move forward in genetics will make this possible. There will not be a line in the sand we should not cross. There never is.

21. Ten Politically Incorrect Truths About Human Nature

Comment #54958 by gordon on July 9, 2007 at 12:55 pm

Bruno,

The micro study of the brain is the equivalent of the Hubble. The macro study of the human condition is distinct from this but chained to the result.

22. Ten Politically Incorrect Truths About Human Nature

Comment #54951 by gordon on July 9, 2007 at 12:28 pm

Rtambree,

Art has become product orientated. Like walking in a shopping mall. At that level it has no worth. Scientific vision has worth. Interpretation of our species has worth. The application of science is consumed like everything else. Only the thought process is free from greed.

23. Ten Politically Incorrect Truths About Human Nature

Comment #54949 by gordon on July 9, 2007 at 12:13 pm

By the way Henri, if you placed diamonds in your skull av you could print tee-shirts and sell them like Damien Hirst. It's no less artistic.

24. Ten Politically Incorrect Truths About Human Nature

Comment #54947 by gordon on July 9, 2007 at 12:05 pm

Rtambree,

No, we have been married since 1979. besides, she'd cut my b---s off if I strayed.

25. Ten Politically Incorrect Truths About Human Nature

Comment #54945 by gordon on July 9, 2007 at 12:02 pm

The string vibrations are unique to you. Abstraction in music is pure form. In painting it is physical and clumsy. Conceptual art is unfinished and lazy. We all conceptualise.

26. Ten Politically Incorrect Truths About Human Nature

Comment #54941 by gordon on July 9, 2007 at 11:57 am

Rtambree,

In deep sleep and in my dreams, my wife just becomes younger. Even with the wide possibilities that dreams allow, she still turns up. Why?

27. Ten Politically Incorrect Truths About Human Nature

Comment #54940 by gordon on July 9, 2007 at 11:52 am

Rtambree,

Rothko isn't deep. It's just balm. You enjoy, stroke your chin and move on. Like I said, you would have to define 'like'. I don't 'like' science but it is attractive. Like a candle to a moth.

28. Ten Politically Incorrect Truths About Human Nature

Comment #54934 by gordon on July 9, 2007 at 11:11 am

Ben,

I understand where you are coming (oops) from. The article missed the nuances out. It simplified the size ratios. Most books looking to sell try this route for effect. Nothing is as simple as this. Besides, we are the only species I know that has the ability to defy our physical and evolutionary inheritance (if we have the will).


Bluebird,

Yes I do like Rothko. I also like Pollock. 'Like' would have to be defined however. The work I produce as results of my cognitive process, despite being conceived in an abstract ferment, end as figurative works. This method of 'conversion' from a thought to a tangible, physical item is important to me. Many paintings, sculptures, installations or whatever, use abstraction or conceptual as their defining principle and final product. An abstraction its purest form is "to do with or existing in thought rather than matter, of in theory rather than practice; not tangible or concrete". An abstract thought remains so unless it is explained or placed (channelled) into some representative medium. To remain as abstract on the canvas, having obtained physical form, then seems to be a contradiction. An 'abstract or conceptual' work therefore seems to no such thing but during my formative years it was the driving force behind the colleges and gallery systems prevalent at that time. So as an artist it could be said it is possible to lie on ones back, daydreaming in abstraction and never committing the work to canvas (or whatever). To allow an actual physical painting to trade as an abstraction or a concept seems to be a conceit. It seems a lazy arrogance to place this object as a material presence if it never evolved beyond abstract thought. A new born human child will think in abstraction. To take an abstract thought and attempt to correlate it with our physical situation, explore, explain it and represent the results in a work of art or science or philosophy seems to be much more worthy than to continue to prolong it as an abstraction or as conceptual. Only music seems to hold abstraction as an ephemeral and passing delight. For these reasons I always fell short of a full appreciation of the Abstract and Conceptual art movements. I think it has been an easy path to follow. A lazy route to appeasement. A starting point, not a destination. I have yet to meet a child that doesn't start with simply applying colour and being entranced just by doing so. To carry through this into adulthood seems to somehow give up on exploration and enquiry.

29. Tinkering with Humans

Comment #54922 by gordon on July 9, 2007 at 10:27 am

What a load of rubbish! Stop thinking, stop creating, stop researching, stop inquiring, stop progressing, stop moving on the edge, we might fall off, stop living!

30. Ten Politically Incorrect Truths About Human Nature

Comment #54919 by gordon on July 9, 2007 at 10:11 am

Ben,


I find the testicle bit interesting. If I was packing the bag of spanners that my Billie goat was carrying around I would have to walk around on crutches. However, even with my mini sweetbreads I could still populate a small continent.

31. Ten Politically Incorrect Truths About Human Nature

Comment #54915 by gordon on July 9, 2007 at 10:04 am

I am also monogamous except in the wee small hours during REM. Even then the objest of fantasy morphs into my wife during the finale. How predictable!

32. Ten Politically Incorrect Truths About Human Nature

Comment #54913 by gordon on July 9, 2007 at 10:01 am

My wife was (and still is) a stunningly beautiful woman and I'm not too bad but we haven't two pennies to scratch our arse(s) with. We have four boys and one girl. What went wrong?

33. Emory Brain Imaging Studies Reveal Biological Basis For Human Cooperation

Comment #54875 by gordon on July 9, 2007 at 8:01 am

Henri,

Can't be yours as it has a hole in the top!

34. Emory Brain Imaging Studies Reveal Biological Basis For Human Cooperation

Comment #54799 by gordon on July 9, 2007 at 2:03 am

Henri,

Nice av. Did you design it yourself? Is it a spin dryer or washing machine?

Won't the weak inherit the earth after all?

By the way, I very rarely quote from others whilst argueing my own corner. We may as well just place a pile of books on the table and leave. Personal experience is a great resourse as one gets older.

Verinique, hows the white space looking?

35. Emory Brain Imaging Studies Reveal Biological Basis For Human Cooperation

Comment #54659 by gordon on July 8, 2007 at 11:33 am

Henri,

Now you agree with me. Morality is grey. What was accepted is no more? In a hundred years time it will differ from today. Maybe they will be more moral by being, in today's language, immoral. I do not, nor ever have accepted a finite definition of morality, but I do not see compassion or altruism as weak as you purport.

Dr Benway,

Morality does not rest on agreement. The masses are not always the moral majority. It was once moral to burn witches.

36. Rats influenced by the kindness of strangers

Comment #54497 by gordon on July 7, 2007 at 1:20 pm

I'm not sure about this. Surely the rats sussed that by releasing something for the neighbour they would get something in return? Maybe the reporting isn't up to scratch.

37. Won't anyone stand up for God?

Comment #54494 by gordon on July 7, 2007 at 12:50 pm

Imagine a round table discussion. The pope, the archbishop of Canterbury, Dan Dennet, M Z Myers, Alistair McGrath, Ossie Bin Laden (F---ing Islam man) and Richard Dawkins, chaired by Paxman. It could happen.

38. Won't anyone stand up for God?

Comment #54487 by gordon on July 7, 2007 at 12:21 pm

Isn't it strange that God and He still attract capitals?

39. Won't anyone stand up for God?

Comment #54481 by gordon on July 7, 2007 at 12:03 pm

Plucked Out of My Arse more like...

So poetic! Tut tut.

40. Won't anyone stand up for God?

Comment #54472 by gordon on July 7, 2007 at 11:25 am

McGrath takes apart Dawkins? When did this happen? McGrath made a substantial refutation. No he didn't, he just taked a lot utill I lost the will to live. He didn't actually say anything. I suggest the pope will keep quiet in order not to expose himself; and the rest of the kiddy fidlers are nervous.

41. Interview with Dan Dennett on Danish TV

Comment #54454 by gordon on July 7, 2007 at 8:04 am

Is it me, or does Dan look more and more like Darwin?

42. Emory Brain Imaging Studies Reveal Biological Basis For Human Cooperation

Comment #54432 by gordon on July 7, 2007 at 3:42 am

Henri,

English yes but lurking in the past is a mix of Irish and Scottish, with possibly a little Norman, Viking and Roman for good measure.

43. Don't Mince Words: The London Car-Bomb Plot Was Designed to Kill Women

Comment #54431 by gordon on July 7, 2007 at 3:39 am

Fanusi Khiyal and Xenocratic


I was pro removing Saddam for the same reasons I am pro removing Mugabe and it has nothing to do with WMDs. Unfortunately it fell on Georges watch and he made a complete hash of the post war analysis. I'm not even sure he had a plan, not will he for Iran when that happens. There is no doubt that American policy is set by the few for their benefit, you have to give Xeno that much. The US military since the Second World War has been the militia of corporate America. Real politic throws some other uncomfortable truths, such as what the Mullahs would do with similar power. I my mind there is no doubt, they would use it to reach over us. Islam in its political form (and it is almost totally thus in today's setting) is a despicable belief. It is about total control of mind and body. I would fight to my last drop of blood not to live under such a system. I have no desire to live under the yoke of American capitalism either, though this takeover is more insidious and less blatant. It has its power in that basic of human desires, greed. Unfortunately we do not seem to have a system to replace it yet. More democracy would help but we are only just learning this type of system. Unfortunately, despite the hype, the US system does not allow 99% of the population to stand in the democratic process. Unless you have the huge financial backing, you cannot stand, so the arbiters of power only promote others of their ilk to the system. I think our system here in the UK and in some other European states is much better but far from perfect. Most of the planet is alienated from power of politics. This is particularly so in the Middle East where tribal affiliations are everything. This type of system is easily exploited by Islam. I wrote another poem across the two systems whilst I was in Riyadh but it's too long to post here I think. More war will not solve our situation but I think it will be inevitable. I am certainly worried about the condition and poor manning levels of our own armed forces in the UK and particularly in Europe. It allows the US to offer protection and makes great claims for doing so. I would prefer for our defence spending to be much higher that at present and for other European states to have similar aims. The upheavals to come from the death throes of religions and ex-industrial powers will be very dangerous. Add to the mix a planet which could possible have a large part of its highly populated girdle destroyed by climate change and we have a viscous mix. If we do not tackle this issue we may be faced with protecting our own space. Do we open fire as they try to reach the North? As for who has the moral high ground you may have a peak at our other discussion in the thread, Emory Brain Imaging Studies Reveal Biological Basis For Human Cooperation, whereby Henri argues morality is a faith and therefore a religious belief. My argument is that morality changes over time and is many shades of grey which is how I view the position on this thread. Real life puts us in a position at times where one has to choose between two lesser options, a black or white. Unfortunately I think you are both digging in your heels where I suspect there is some common ground.

Thanks for the nod on the poem!

44. Emory Brain Imaging Studies Reveal Biological Basis For Human Cooperation

Comment #54422 by gordon on July 7, 2007 at 2:33 am

Henri, you said,

'I cannot respond to every single point you all mentioned, except to say that my views are undoubtedly correct.'

At last. I fall naked before my God!

Such certainty is awesome, but as you get older you will find it fades.

45. Don't Mince Words: The London Car-Bomb Plot Was Designed to Kill Women

Comment #54336 by gordon on July 6, 2007 at 12:29 pm

Fanusi Khiyal and Xenocratic

Sadly this debate is dumbing down. It isn't helped by interruptions from others who resort to violent language. For an example of a civilised debate look to Emory Brain Imaging Studies Reveal Biological Basis For Human Cooperation. Calm down, its only temporary.
By the way, did you like my poem?

46. Emory Brain Imaging Studies Reveal Biological Basis For Human Cooperation

Comment #54327 by gordon on July 6, 2007 at 11:36 am

Henri,

You wrote,

Unfortunately, illusions often do seem to keep societies together. History shows this. One example, creating a straw-man enemy unites a people - 'straw man' being the indicator of illusion.

All rulers of societies understand this, thus we have 'realpolitik'.

As the Roman statesman Seneca wrote, "Religion for the common man is truth; for the wise, false; and for the rulers, useful.'


Other things are useful in ruling a society. It was common knowledge whilst I was in Yemen that, despite it being a 'democracy', the President wanted to stay in power long enough to then set his son on the 'throne'. Many injustices are done during the long reign of anyone not committed to furthering the health and wealth of their people but this is particularly true of my experiences in Yemen, where political and theocratic corruption is absolutely accepted and expected. The government also makes many platitudes regarding the habit of the daily quat** chew, during which time the entire population (or so it seems) stop work and chew qat for the remainder of the day. This 'opium' for the masses, besides crippling the economy can serve the government well. A common joke told in Yemen is the story of the President grooming his son for taking power.
"Are you ready for power?" asks the President to his son. "Yes father, of course." Well I will test you." says his father, who is less sure than Ali. "Take this bag!" He hands his son a bag. "Now, this bag is full of rats. I want you to let the rats out on the ground and then catch then and put them all back in the bag. Can you do this?" "Of course I can father." says Ali. He takes the bag and, undoing the string, he lets the rats out on the floor. At once the rats all head off in other directions and Ali does not even manage to catch even one rat. "As I thought, you are not yet ready." says Ali-Abdullah Saleh. "Let me show you how it should be done." He takes another bag full of rats and in front of the embarrassed Ali he begins to shake the bag and whirl it around his head. After a few minutes, he empties the bag on the floor. The rats are all dizzy and the President picks them up one at a time and places them back in the bag. "There, he says." "To rule over a population you must know how to distract them and what their weaknesses are. Then you can control them!"
Yemen has qat, others have alcohol, drugs, religion or fear. The Unites States has Fox (Faux) news.

47. Emory Brain Imaging Studies Reveal Biological Basis For Human Cooperation

Comment #54324 by gordon on July 6, 2007 at 11:28 am

Henri,

Good evening/morning,

I am still not sure of your definition of morality. Compassion and altruism can be separate entities with different outcomes for the participants. This is why I believe it is a grey not a black or white. The idea of morality being a weak state is not necessarily backed up as fact. It could be argued that without the weak the aggressive have no-one to exploit. Christianity could be argued to have led to the Enlightenment but it could as easily be argued to have hindered it. In a post-enlightenment state we can peer above the necessity for a deity to reach for our own vision of morality. This will be an ever changing concept. It is easier to be moral (apart from aberrations like heroes etc) if one is not under pressure to be otherwise, i.e., starving or in the slavery of oppression. In this context I defined moral as being both compassionate and altruistic without apparent immediate gain, with the greater good of our being in mind. The context will change over time as we find out more about our nature and our position in the universe. The mere use of the word can be flippancy. For instance I think Richard Dawkins is a 'moral' man. However, in future revisions he could be seen to be lacking in some virtue which has become adopted or discovered in that time. He could also have some flaw which removes a percentage of his perceived morality. Less than a 100% is a grey.

48. Emory Brain Imaging Studies Reveal Biological Basis For Human Cooperation

Comment #54245 by gordon on July 6, 2007 at 5:45 am

Henri,

There is no such line. Everything is grey. There are no principles of absolute but only broad aims. The point is, as individuals we cannot prosper.

49. Emory Brain Imaging Studies Reveal Biological Basis For Human Cooperation

Comment #54242 by gordon on July 6, 2007 at 5:38 am

Dr Benway,

Quite.

Henri,

You still didn't answer my question. Define morality. Is it a vague notion that combines altruism and compassion that you would define as weakness? Which morality are we looking at, past historical stance or our evolving stance?

50. Emory Brain Imaging Studies Reveal Biological Basis For Human Cooperation

Comment #54229 by gordon on July 6, 2007 at 4:44 am

Henri,

You didn't answer my question. How do you define morality?

Will answer later as work has reared its ugly head.

PS, I do not rule out a God. I think it ridiculously unlikely. I do rule out religion as an arrogant suposition. If something breathed life into the universe we most certainly do not know or understand (yet) what it is.

PPS, Killing innocent people is not always wrong on an individual level. It is sometimes unavoidable in order to protect others. A byproduct of other actions.