1. 'Imagine No Religon' Billboard Only Lasts a Few Days in Rancho Cucamonga

Comment #288958 by Eshto on November 22, 2008 at 10:05 pm

Church going families, FFRF's target audience here

Um... I listen to FFRF's broadcast every week, and I'm pretty sure that church going families are the exact opposite of their target audience. They seem more interested in standing up and speaking out for atheists and agnostics. Their primary concern with religious people is that they don't impose their beliefs on others.

FFRF is not getting their money's worth?

This publicity is PRICELESS! They hit the jackpot! They won the lottery!

(and even got a refund)

Agreed. The message got out, that's what they wanted. The billboard will get more visibility in the newspapers than it would have on the side of one road.

Given the many diseases associated with homosexuality

Right. So why don't I have any diseases...?

If homosexuality made your dick explode

Works for me. Oh... you meant literally explode.

Ew.

2. The Religious Support Behind Proposition 8

Comment #288956 by Eshto on November 22, 2008 at 9:53 pm

You seem to be suggesting that if we remove religion, and I will add here, provided that people are reasonable, they will still be homophobic. I disagree, or at least I believe they will be greatly less homophobic.

Actually the more I think about it, the more absurd it is for anyone to feel the need to suggest there might be a "natural" or instinctive cause for homophobia. People living in homophobic societies are constantly bombarded with anti-gay stereotypes, myths, lies, etc. Homophobia is indoctrinated into people at early ages. Every school kid in America knows that to call someone "gay" or a "fag" is pretty much the worst thing to call them. It's getting a little better as time goes on of course, but it's still pervasive.

I distinctly remember being a very small child, one of my playmates was staying at my house. We were playing video games and getting competitive and, in front of my mother, my friend mindlessly insulted me by yelling out "Ryan's gay!"

My mother's response: "HE BETTER NOT BE OR HIS FATHER WILL KILL HIM."

(And yes I brought this up to my mother years later and made her feel terrible about it.)

...

Point is, I see absolutely no reason to require anything other than a sociological explanation of homophobic beliefs and attitudes.

Otherwise I would suggest looking at it the way Dawkins looks at religion. Not "what causes homophobia" but "how do ideas and values spread among human populations?" and "what evolutionary predispositions facilitate it?"

Remember the moth and the flame.

3. The Religious Support Behind Proposition 8

Comment #288950 by Eshto on November 22, 2008 at 9:22 pm

Proposition 8 passed because of religious folk.

No shit Sherlock.

On Zuckerman's wider point, that the religious are against homosexuality because it's condemned in scripture, I think that's a bit simplistic. After all, if there's no gods to dictate this idea, then why is it condemned in scripture? I think instead that religion justifies the prejudices that people already have, allowing them to be proud of their discrimination rather than ashamed. Thereby it empowers them to vote for attitudes that, without religion, they might be embarrassed to even admit to.

The notion that homosexuality is 'unnatural' is certainly untenable (and morally irrelevant); but similarly, I wonder if heterosexual prejudice against homosexuality is a natural tendency, an evolved instinct? One which religion fuels but reason curtails? Thoughts, people?

I think the idea that homophobia is somehow natural is totally unsubstantiated. Actually your suggestion that homophobia is some "evolved instinct" would be a much simpler explanation than the actual history of religious evolution and syncretism.

Modern homophobia can be traced back to the Abrahamic religious system. It began with ancient Hebrews, who developed rituals and laws that emphasized procreation and shunned non-reproductive activities, for reasons specific to their historical and cultural situation.

Over time these laws became institutionalized and, in the great tradition of religious stupidity, the words were worshiped but the reasons for why they were written down in the first place were long gone; the original contexts and meanings were completely forgotten. But after a few centuries it doesn't matter anymore because nobody cares what the original context is, they've ceased looking at their religious texts as... well texts. Now they take them at face value, like some kind of divine stereo instructions that must apply to all people living in all times. Here is one of the most important reasons why religious people are batshit crazy.

Then of course Abrahamic doctrine, after being embraced by the most powerful militaries in the world, was spread through conquest and colonization. Take Native Americans, for example. While gender norms differed from tribe to tribe of course, we do know that many Native American tribes did not practice homophobia until after being conquered by European Christians. Several Native cultures were tolerant of gender and sexual diversity before Christians got to them.

In some cases, presence of homosexuality was literally a legal justification for enslaving entire tribes. So now you have an invading nation obsessed with persecuting homosexuals, conquering your land and telling you that if anyone in your tribe exhibits homosexual characteristics, your tribe will be deemed satanic "heathens" and you will be enslaved or worse.

Guess how quickly Natives learned to police sexual behavior in their own tribes and adopt the homophobic attitude of their oppressors? Pretty goddamn quick.

Of course all this historical context is unbeknownst to contemporary Christians who have no idea why they're supposed to hate gays or how that idea spread across the globe. All they know is that their magic book tells them that being gay is bad, supposedly.

Which may be why on the surface it might seem like a simple explanation to say homophobia comes from religion, when in actuality there is a whole hell of a lot of history underneath it.

4. 'Imagine No Religon' Billboard Only Lasts a Few Days in Rancho Cucamonga

Comment #288878 by Eshto on November 22, 2008 at 3:15 pm

@eellerto:

"Eshto,

I was totally being sarcastic. I love Yoga, but I do hate patchouli, and I do cringe when they say some of the ridiculous crap in there. I am a neuroscientist, so when I hear things like, "Breath through the right nostril to invigorate your left hemisphere" (I kind of made that up, but I have heard similar absurdities), I cringe."

Do you ever watch Mad TV? There was an episode once where the yoga instructor was saying even crazier things, and most of them were sexual.

"Now, stretch to the right and let your nipples face west."

"That's right, now breathe deeply through your anus."

5. 'Imagine No Religon' Billboard Only Lasts a Few Days in Rancho Cucamonga

Comment #288861 by Eshto on November 22, 2008 at 2:32 pm

Yeah, if they're renting it from a company they can't do much in the way of legal action.

However, I feel justified in pointing out that the people over at the billboard company are morons. If they didn't want the controversy, they shouldn't have even agreed to it in the first place. I don't have much sympathy for them or any criticism they get, they had to know what they were getting into.

6. 'Imagine No Religon' Billboard Only Lasts a Few Days in Rancho Cucamonga

Comment #288855 by Eshto on November 22, 2008 at 2:22 pm

@eellerto:

Hey I do yoga, it's great for posture and working out back pain. And the Wii Fit lets you monitor and develop your balance.

Ain't nothin' wrong with psychophysical exercise, it's really just stretching, deep breathing and relaxing. Just because chakras and kundalini energy aren't real doesn't mean yoga isn't good for you.

Plus Pat Robertson thinks yoga is demonic, so that gives me even more incentive to do it.

P.S. I love patchouli.

EDIT: "Islam is a complete way of life. Islam is able to cater to the needs of Muslims; spiritual needs, intellectual needs and other needs, material needs. So there is no need to bring in elements from outside"

Really?

Show me the doctrine in Islam that encourages muscle tone and flexibility. Is there one?

7. Bush set to relax endangered species rules

Comment #288244 by Eshto on November 21, 2008 at 12:23 pm

Usually I love Penn and Teller's show, but like many Libertarians I've encountered, they make sense up to a point, but then on random issues they lapse into complete batshit insanity.

They once spent an entire show railing against the evils of handicapped parking.

Meanwhile, I don't even think you need to consider any scientific evidence to realize why it's a bad idea to let developers decide the fate of the creatures living on the land they want to develop.

It's like... duh. Common sense.

While we're at it, let's let fast food companies design the new Food Pyramid.

8. Single-Celled Giant Upends Early Evolution

Comment #287898 by Eshto on November 20, 2008 at 11:09 pm

Someone help me out here, is that a picture of a giant single celled thing? If so, why does it look like it's made up of a bunch of smaller things?

9. Bush set to relax endangered species rules

Comment #287896 by Eshto on November 20, 2008 at 11:04 pm

God dammit can someone stop these people already?!?

AAAAAGH it's infuriating. How can an administration be consistently wrong on EVERY SINGLE ISSUE? EVER???

But yeah, from what I've been hearing, it won't be all that difficult for Obama's administration to overturn most of this crap.

But shit, come on. Are these people actually trying to go down in history as the douchebags of the century?

10. I'm Not One Of Those 'Love Thy Neighbor' Christians

Comment #287832 by Eshto on November 20, 2008 at 5:43 pm

"True, but wait for the hormones and neural "rewriring" to finish so the heads a bit clearer :-)"

Er... at what age is that supposed to happen again...?

EDIT: (and were you talking about the anger or the video games?)

11. I'm Not One Of Those 'Love Thy Neighbor' Christians

Comment #287825 by Eshto on November 20, 2008 at 5:36 pm

Okay I know where I was going with that, because I know now what's missing amidst all this rosy romanticism.

Don't be afraid to get fucking angry. Some things in life are horrible and utterly fucked up. Shit will happen. And some people are evil, just fucking evil, and a whole lot more are just selfish and stupid. If you don't fight back they will walk all over you. Jesus had his head up his ass when he said to turn the other cheek.

Don't let it eat you up, don't keep it bottled up, by all means channel it into something constructive.

But don't feel obligated to be all fucking serene and gleeful every waking goddamn moment of your life, because some things are awful and they warrant outrage. If you're completely content with everything around you then you're not paying any attention.

EDIT: and play lots of video games, they make you smarter.

12. I'm Not One Of Those 'Love Thy Neighbor' Christians

Comment #287812 by Eshto on November 20, 2008 at 5:18 pm

Really RhettJD? You're lucky.

When I was 18 I was living in a small town, my roommate was a Christian fundamentalist, I was secretly gay and in love with him, I was severely depressed, on drugs and contemplating suicide.

So...

Actually I'm not sure where I was going with that.

13. I'm Not One Of Those 'Love Thy Neighbor' Christians

Comment #287790 by Eshto on November 20, 2008 at 4:31 pm

Postmodernism.

14. I'm Not One Of Those 'Love Thy Neighbor' Christians

Comment #287788 by Eshto on November 20, 2008 at 4:24 pm

@ty90

Dude I was joking. Take a chill pill.

...

Do you kids still say that, "take a chill pill?" We did, back in my day...

15. I'm Not One Of Those 'Love Thy Neighbor' Christians

Comment #287783 by Eshto on November 20, 2008 at 4:15 pm

Whatever Wosret, everyone knows the warp drive gets invented in 2063.

16. I'm Not One Of Those 'Love Thy Neighbor' Christians

Comment #287770 by Eshto on November 20, 2008 at 4:03 pm

"I still want to be around when we make first contact"

Oh good lord, as if the fundies aren't hysterical enough already. Can you imagine how they would cope with an alien encounter?

17. I'm Not One Of Those 'Love Thy Neighbor' Christians

Comment #287763 by Eshto on November 20, 2008 at 3:54 pm

Ty90:

Also, the left lane is for passing. If you want to drive at a goddamn snail's pace then move over to the right

(reverse these directions if you live in one of those strange countries where all the cars and roads are backwards).

18. I'm Not One Of Those 'Love Thy Neighbor' Christians

Comment #287752 by Eshto on November 20, 2008 at 3:37 pm

"In case anyone is wondering if the U.S. will ever lose its dominance in basketball:"

We still have dominance in something?!?

19. I'm Not One Of Those 'Love Thy Neighbor' Christians

Comment #287746 by Eshto on November 20, 2008 at 3:30 pm

"Edit: Ignore Eshto!

Forums are anarchic, and go their own way.!"

Except for all the ones with guidelines and stricter moderators.

Speaking of which ty90, beware older people, your youth makes them feel nostalgic and slightly regretful and they'll want to live vicariously through you, so they'll tell you to enjoy every precious moment of your life, don't listen to anyone else and throw caution to the wind! Even though that would probably lead to a whole lot of trouble for you.

Ah, romantic idealism...

20. I'm Not One Of Those 'Love Thy Neighbor' Christians

Comment #287735 by Eshto on November 20, 2008 at 3:15 pm

@ty90:

Yeah here's some good advice: when you post comments on internet forums, make them relevant to the topic under discussion.

Happy birthday.

:)

21. The battle rages on in Texas

Comment #287559 by Eshto on November 20, 2008 at 10:44 am

Ugh. Yep, Christians acting like they're the victims when they're the ones trying to shove their shit down everyone else's throats. Turning reality on its head: it's what they do best.

...Oh no! I just criticized Christians! That must make me one of those insidious "Christian bashers" Mike Huckabee has been warning us about!!

(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UkXo9tCv48&eurl=http://www.towleroad.com/2008/11/huckabee-gays-n.html)

22. Puncturing the Acupuncture Myth

Comment #286562 by Eshto on November 18, 2008 at 10:14 pm

Yeah, my boyfriend bought those stupid foot pad things. He got them for his grandmother who wanted them, he figured she's so old there's no point in trying to argue with her, so he got them hoping the placebo effect would make her feel good.

Got another box for us just out of curiosity and we tried it for a night. They turned gross and brown over night - big surprise, they're filled with herbs and they get soaked with foot sweat for eight hours.

Other than that, I had a friend get really mad at me, because I have arthritis and he suggested those idiotic ionized bracelets that look like torcs that celebrities wear. I shot down the idea of course, and he tried to accuse me of being closed minded.

23. God Trumps

Comment #286561 by Eshto on November 18, 2008 at 10:09 pm

@ black wolf:

I have a friend who always wanted me to play the Illuminati card game. But I thought it was a bit too dorky.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm watching Star Trek DS9.

24. I am Darwin

Comment #286231 by Eshto on November 18, 2008 at 11:14 am

@NMcC:

Dawkins should give advice to a man who's been dead for over a century...

O... kay...

?

And somehow I doubt the students at Liberty are in love with or married to the university, unless there's some weird tradition there that I'm not aware of.

25. I am Darwin

Comment #286178 by Eshto on November 18, 2008 at 9:15 am

"Goodness, what a load of world-weary, cynical old curmudgeons we have posting here today!
Richard"

That's what I was thinking. Someone get the stick remover.

The genius of Darwin isn't just that he came up with a theory, it's that he forever changed our perception of ourselves and how we came to be. He raised consciousness.

And yeah, take this opportunity to smuggle in some explanations and criticisms of Darwin's theory. Nobody said you had to gush on and on about him like he was your personal savior.

26. Atheism, a positive pillar

Comment #285704 by Eshto on November 17, 2008 at 1:29 pm

Okay this 2 2 argument is conflating different definitions of the same word, "freedom".

If by freedom you mean freedom from government oppression, then yes, technically you are free to believe 2 2 = 5. You will not be arrested for saying so.

But if by freedom you mean free from logical scrutiny, criticism or judgment, then no, you are not free to believe it because it's fucking stupid and anyone with half a brain will tell you so.

If you go around saying something so batshit crazy, you may not be arrested, but you will suffer many other consequences, notably that people will think you're a moron (or just a jackass).

In most other ways other than a strictly legal context, you aren't really free to believe 2 2 = 5.

27. Educated Catholics have sown dissent and confusion in the Church, claims bishop

Comment #285456 by Eshto on November 17, 2008 at 7:38 am

Can someone please explain to me, what is "concupiscence"?

Yeah I could just google it, but I like you guys' answers better.

(And leave me alone about the apostrophe).

28. SC priest: No communion for Obama supporters

Comment #284530 by Eshto on November 15, 2008 at 11:48 am

Did we already discuss this video?: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/11/01/mccain-supporter-denies-c_n_140075.html

Either way it's what this reminds me of. How childish.

29. Richard Dawkins: An Exclusive Profile

Comment #284092 by Eshto on November 14, 2008 at 10:24 am

Richard is one of my heroes and I would choose him to sit at my dinner table. He can sit next to Seth McFarlane.

30. Proposition 8 made me quit the Mormon church

Comment #283762 by Eshto on November 13, 2008 at 7:22 pm

@Don_Quix: Thanks I feel better now.

31. Proposition 8 made me quit the Mormon church

Comment #283707 by Eshto on November 13, 2008 at 6:02 pm

@Lucas:

You know who looked even happier than those two married lesbians? The proponents of Prop 8 when it passed. I've seen the pictures of them cheering, praying, crying with joy - fucking ecstatic about the passing of a law that has absolutely no benefit for them whatsoever, and puts others in legal jeopardy.

It's fucking sick.

32. In a Novel Theory of Mental Disorders, Parents' Genes Are in Competition

Comment #282785 by Eshto on November 12, 2008 at 6:03 pm

@notsobad:

They do in many cases because they are socialized to. How much of it is genetic or otherwise biologically determined is, as far as I know, far from settled.

It reminds me of a study I read about that said supposedly men navigate with their sense of direction, a natural internal compass; and women use landmarks; and they claimed gay men were in between.

So now when I'm driving I can't help but think about how I'm navigating. ZOMG did I just use a landmark to find that street? I am such a fag! Oh wait, I totally found that building on my own with no landmarks. Heh heh, I'm so butch.

33. Catholic bishops warn Obama they'll fight on abortion: Statement to focus on 'opposing evil'

Comment #282778 by Eshto on November 12, 2008 at 5:52 pm

@jabber:

Who with the what now?

Maybe make it more clear that you're seeking feedback? I read your posts and I was like "word, brudda". I didn't know you wanted feedback.

But since you're fishing openly now, I'll bite. I liked that link you provided, it is very true.

It reminds me of another time I argued with pro-life protesters (yes confronting protesters is a hobby of mine), because they were particularly Biblical with their signs and stuff. So I made my own sign: "Abortion isn't mentioned anywhere in the Bible". And I walked around them in circles.

One guy yelled "it says not to kill, you MORON!!!" First off, I always laugh my ass off when I anger a "loving Christian" enough to resort to yelling childish insults. Tee hee.

But there's that indirect, open-to-interpretation thing your link talks about. And it's easy to deconstruct. Yes, according to the Bible Yahweh told Moses to tell the Jews not to murder. Then shortly thereafter Yahweh told Moses to tell the Jews to invade Canaan and murder everyone and steal their land. So the idea that Yahweh meant for the commandment against murder to apply in all cases is absurd.

34. Prediction: self-promoting hype meets interdisciplinary ignorance

Comment #282767 by Eshto on November 12, 2008 at 5:38 pm

@madamX:

You dare defy the will of the all-knowing, all-seeing protein chain? BLASPHEMER!!

35. Prediction: self-promoting hype meets interdisciplinary ignorance

Comment #282744 by Eshto on November 12, 2008 at 5:05 pm

This proves the existence of midichlorions.

May the force be with you.

36. Catholic bishops warn Obama they'll fight on abortion: Statement to focus on 'opposing evil'

Comment #282741 by Eshto on November 12, 2008 at 5:03 pm

@OutragedofDaylesford:

You mean aborted naturally, as in miscarriage, right?

I tried to tell a pro-lifer once that abortions happen naturally. He said "we're not talking about someone falling down the stairs or getting kicked in the stomach here!" I was like "uh... I'm not talking about that either."

I tried to explain that the human body naturally rejects fertilized eggs on occasion, and he just stared at me like I had three heads.

Apparently the idea that abortion could be caused by anything other than evil liberal politicians and life-hating feminist doctors was beyond his comprehension.

37. In a Novel Theory of Mental Disorders, Parents' Genes Are in Competition

Comment #282713 by Eshto on November 12, 2008 at 4:26 pm

@ 7. and 8.:

Yeah I see what you're saying King of NH. Maybe I'm just nervous because of what jabber points out, that lay people and especially social conservatives tend to misunderstand (or intentionally skew) things like this and assume it means men and women inherently think differently, thus are better suited to certain roles and occupations, thus things like women having careers and people of the same sex marrying is unnatural, and so on and so forth.

You can bet if James Dobson finds out about this study he'll take it as evidence that children need both a mother and a father, lest their impressionable brains tip too much toward one gender. "Two lesbians raising a child will give the child schizophrenia! Two gay men will give it autism!"

But if we are just talking about genetics, then I agree it's interesting. Now I just want to know more about how valid it is to make a scale of mental illness with autism on one end and schizophrenia on the other. Are there any types of mental illness we can come up with off the bat that don't fit along that spectrum?

38. In a Novel Theory of Mental Disorders, Parents' Genes Are in Competition

Comment #282644 by Eshto on November 12, 2008 at 1:35 pm

Sounds very gendered, which immediately causes me to be suspicious, since most people are raised with very polarized views of gender that aren't necessarily based on objective fact.

Has science really established that female brains are more social and males are more mechanically inclined?

39. Marine census discovers more than 200 new species

Comment #282484 by Eshto on November 12, 2008 at 9:21 am

"you could slip a handful of these into someone's bowl of egg noodles and they'd never know."

And now if you'll excuse me, I'm gonna go hide under my bed and cry for a while.

40. The 'Great Debate' in Texas

Comment #281562 by Eshto on November 10, 2008 at 3:46 pm

"Still, he asked if he could pray on my behalf then and there. I didn't have the heart to say no to the guy, so I stood there with a pained expression waiting for him to finish, as if he were an amorous dog with so much leg."

...

Ew.

41. Obama will move to veto Bush laws

Comment #281500 by Eshto on November 10, 2008 at 1:26 pm

"You must be joking. The African slaves were often Muslims (many hailing from the kingdom of Takrur), so in that sense it was a trade across not down. They could have the Muslim attitude to homosexuals if you would prefer it."

Interesting. So they had already been infected by the Abrahamic god before Christians got to them?

There's just no escaping that bastard is there!!

Still, it's amusing that (if that author is to be believed), blacks in the U.S. fundamentally define themselves in terms of Christianity. It's still a culture that was imposed on them by their white oppressors. And it still means they have no universal, objective understanding of social justice.

There's an article up on CNN showing black churches rejoicing, because they claim god has vindicated the black people by electing Obama. I think this attitude taints the moment.

God didn't fucking elect Obama. We did. And I voted for him because of his knowledge of the constitution and his level-headedness. I sure as hell didn't vote for him because it was god's idea. And America didn't get to the point of being able to elect a black person because god swooped down and decreed it. It took centuries of struggle and countless sacrifices to fight institutionalized racism in our culture.

I refuse to let an invisible being take the credit for what human beings worked their asses off to achieve.

42. Obama will move to veto Bush laws

Comment #281336 by Eshto on November 10, 2008 at 7:13 am

@Enlightenme..:

Enlighten me. In what way is Amistad "burdened"? Was there a homophobic scene or something?

I read this blog comment last night by a black lesbian who says basically "don't blame us for Prop 8, the white gays didn't reach out to us, they don't understand black people." And she said we need to understand that for them, civil rights is rooted in religion, and the two are inseparable.

That's... insane. They really have no other basis for their claim to civil rights than mythology? Problematic to say the least.

And it perfectly sums up why homophobia is running rampant in their communities. Of course it is, after being conquered by Christians and forced to convert, black communities have so perfectly assimilated to Christian beliefs and values that they now act exactly like their oppressors. They hate the gays just like Yahweh does.

Well I responded to her by saying no, sorry, she's the one who needs to reach out to her community and explain gay rights to them. It's her family, her friends, her churches. I'm a gay atheist honky from northern Wisconsin. I can't just waltz into a closely-knit black church and hope to start a rational dialogue about a topic that churchgoers feels so strongly and utterly irrationally about.

It wasn't the most PC thing to write and I'm sure she and other black people will take issue with it, but I still think it's the truth.

It will be interesting to see how Obama will deal with these social issues. My guess is he will tackle stem cells and Don't Ask, Don't Tell; he may push for a separate-but-equal federal civil union, but he tends to push for things that he thinks have universal support, so I think he'll stay far away from full gay marriage equality.

43. Darwin's specimens go on display

Comment #280565 by Eshto on November 7, 2008 at 8:04 pm

@Don_Quix:

Isn't it sad how impressed we are just to have a president who can form coherent sentences?

I mean, I do think Obama is a very smart and above average guy. But it's still kinda sad. I think even a slightly dumber and mediocre president would have been refreshing.

44. Anti-religion agenda among social media users

Comment #280521 by Eshto on November 7, 2008 at 4:58 pm

@Spiny:

Ooooo...!

45. Unknown 'Structures' Tugging at Universe, Study Says

Comment #280515 by Eshto on November 7, 2008 at 4:38 pm

Does anyone else picture the giant head of Jesus hovering just outside the visible universe, sucking it up through a crazy straw?

Yeah me neither.

46. Does Religion Make You Nice?

Comment #280503 by Eshto on November 7, 2008 at 4:19 pm

"Where there is no God, all is permitted"

I think that's why we have police and courts. And stuff.

47. Tolerance Over Race Can Spread, Studies Find

Comment #280497 by Eshto on November 7, 2008 at 3:58 pm

hungarianelephant:

I do agree with you, and that's why I wanted to explain what affirmative action is actually meant to do (at least in the U.S.).

Affirmative action is often wrongly characterized as a quota system, where a qualified white man might be passed up for a promotion because they "must" hire a black person or a woman instead. That's nonsense.

In most cases diversity for the mere sake of diversity (i.e. demanding a requisite number of ovaries or brown faces) is considered illegal and is not a valid justification for affirmative action.

Actually the only time companies have done that is when they have had a really bad track record of being racist or sexist, and they've done it on their own. Like a traditionally all-white country club that lets in the one token black guy so they can say "see, we're not racist - (GRIN)". It's just a cynical PR move, and that's not what affirmative action really is.

Socio-economic background is often times much, much more important than race, gender, sexual orientation, religion or any other difference. And effective affirmative action programs take class into account in cases where people of a certain class are underrepresented.

Basically effective affirmative action programs take into account whatever groups are being excluded or underrepresented in any given field, and it's meant to give everyone a fair shot so their skills and willingness to work aren't hindered by other people's prejudices. We have a friend who is a white male, and he's a nurse which is a vocation dominated by females, so he actually benefits from affirmative action in that case. And again, the idea isn't just to have more Y chromosomes in the building, it's to counteract the social taboo against males becoming nurses and the difficulties it causes for otherwise qualified males.

It's sort of difficult to talk about diversity and not talk about affirmative action. Sort of like discussing intelligent design and not bringing up theism. Just doesn't happen.

It also might be different in other countries, so if your country has a policy of hiring ovaries and black faces regardless of their competency, then your affirmative action program is screwed up and needs reform.

The big problem in the U.S. is that people want to get rid of it because they think racism is a thing of the past, but it isn't. The redlining is an example of how it still matters and affects the current generation. Conservatives in the U.S. who want to get rid of affirmative action are trying to pretend those kinds of problems don't exist.

48. Anti-religion agenda among social media users

Comment #280322 by Eshto on November 7, 2008 at 10:54 am

"'The irony here is that atheism is a form of religion. You're still in something.'"

So is every form of social organization a "religion"? I'm an avid gamer and I frequent gaming websites, is that a "religion"? I'm an art student and hang out with other artists, is that a "religion"?

What about people with fetishes who hook up on the internet, do they have a "religion"?

Should Furries apply for tax exempt status??

49. Tolerance Over Race Can Spread, Studies Find

Comment #280311 by Eshto on November 7, 2008 at 10:43 am

hungarianelephant:

Important question. I agree with Riley, and it's because everyone comes from different cultures and different points of view. The more similar a group of people are, the less new ideas are possible and the less adaptable they are to change.

Now some people who are against affirmative action are uncomfortable with that, but I'm not saying diversity should be mandated with quotas or anything, just that it should be encouraged and we need to make sure opportunities are available to everyone who wants them, no matter who they are.

And usually when affirmative action comes under discussion, the problem is that the body in question (be it a work force, school population, etc.) doesn't reflect the actual diversity of the population surrounding it. If you have a diverse community but only certain groups are making it to college, it's probably due to historical and institutionalized prejudice in the area. That's a real problem and affirmative action in its best form addresses that unfairness.

Throughout the 20th century in the United States, communities that had a lot of blacks and immigrants were redlined, which means they were marked as financially risky, so the people living there had a harder time getting loans. This was a major contributor to the creation of inner city ghettos, and a major reason why they are disproportionately made up of people of color.

I've seen the documents they used in redlining, and the criteria they used to deem certain neighborhoods unsuitable for investing in. They literally had boxes to check: "Infiltration of negroes", "infiltration of immigrants". They didn't judge neighborhoods based on access to schools, hospitals or public transportation. Many, many neighborhoods that were thriving were deemed undesirable simply because they were black or immigrant neighborhoods. Nobody wanted to invest in redlined districts, so they decayed.

The people living there couldn't obtain loans, couldn't accumulate wealth, and couldn't pass it on to the current generation. Hence people of color disproportionately have a harder time succeeding because, even when they have the same potential to succeed, they don't have the same opportunities and privileges.

This is just one great example of why affirmative action is so necessary and why diversity is an issue.

50. Tolerance Over Race Can Spread, Studies Find

Comment #280249 by Eshto on November 7, 2008 at 8:53 am

I'm intolerant toward people who are intolerant of intolerance toward intolerance.

(I meet them all the time).