Comments by Richard Morgan

Comment #180468 by Richard Morgan on May 15, 2008 at 3:09 am

Quetzalcoatl :

But from reading your posts on the FCOS forum in the days prior to the revelation, it was pretty obvious that you were gearing yourself up to make that jump, so it didn't exactly come as a tremendous surprise to me.

What is the expression - "The spectator always has a better view of the game"?
You're so right - with hindsight it is pretty glaring, isn't it?
But even with your perception, you had the wisdom to say nothing, because you knew that at the time I would have denied it violently.
There's none so blind as those who refuse to see, huh?
Nice to hear from you, Quetzy.

2. The Neural Buddhists

Comment #180438 by Richard Morgan on May 15, 2008 at 12:53 am

Quine - I want to thank you for the thoughtfulness of your posts, the time you have taken to write them, and for your most useful rebukes.
I have ventured back here because of people like yourself.
And, of course, the irresistibly lovable Goldy.
MaxD : For the time being, in view of my personal strengths and weaknesses, especially the weaknesses, I would still prefer to entrust my "epiphany experience" to people on an individual, personal basis. I'm sorry if you consider that to be an unsatisfactory reaction but, as Quine has pointed out, this is all still very new in my life. I need to advance with caution - I'm sure you can understand that.
And since Quine considers that the "qualia" discussion is a bottomless pit, and his understanding of the subject greatly exceeds my own, then perhaps my contributions to this thread have come to an end.
For now.

3. The Neural Buddhists

Comment #180396 by Richard Morgan on May 14, 2008 at 7:39 pm

Caudimordax - thank you for those wise words. It's time for me to go to bed.
But never forget the ancient wisdom which says:
"Good threads never die, they simply ......"
(Complete this expression with two words, the second of which is "away.")
G'night, all.

4. The Neural Buddhists

Comment #180391 by Richard Morgan on May 14, 2008 at 7:15 pm

Goldy - just to make sure : do you really believe that I thought, "Oh this must be God. Therefore I will convert?" Do you think it happened that way? If so, it proves that I'm a lousy communicator. Sorry about that.

BTW, which part of my brain would I need to prod to get the taste of steak and kidney pudding, because you can't find it in France?
What did you say?
"Get the recipe and make some, dumbo!"
You're right - why didn't I think of that?

EDIT : Goldy, I think it's important not to forget one important point here : for the last fifteen years, I would have reasoned in exactly the same way as you. Without wishing to sound pompous, I have already used precisely the same kind of explanations a thousand times or more, to exlpain my own experiences and other peoples.
I mean, it's just so logical, isn't it?
Irrefutably reasonable.
I know where you're coming from. I understand what you're saying.
Then April 12th happened.
And everything changed.

5. The Neural Buddhists

Comment #180386 by Richard Morgan on May 14, 2008 at 6:55 pm

Caudimax - you mean you hadn't already realized you were extremely drunk? It took the "strong feeling of a presence"? Wow.
lol

Goldy - you still here?
Good.
And yes, you're absolutely right about one thing.
Again - drat you!
I was so worried about that Bible quotation sounding like "spin from someone selling the idea of a god" that I almost omitted it. But I thought that if I started going down that path, I'd end up not saying a pile of things I need to say. And since this is the Internet, you know, a place where people feel free to say all sorts of things, I thought, "Publish and be damned!"
(You might find this hard to believe, but some people even use rude words. lol)

6. The Neural Buddhists

Comment #180383 by Richard Morgan on May 14, 2008 at 6:18 pm

Quine - thank you for that most useful and enlightening link.
May I make so bold as to share my thoughts with you as they develop and evolve instead of waiting for the conclusion? If that is inappropriate here, tell me and I'll stop.
You said: "your internal subjective experiences are not useful for us no matter how real they seem to you." And I replied that this was my "hard problem".
But I am wondering if I did not reply a little too quickly. Certainly, what you say is intuitively "felt" to be correct. The knee-jerk reaction (well, my knee-jerk reaction at least) is, "Well, of course, that's logical."
But if we take that a little further, does that mean that none of my subjective experiences have any relevance whatsoever for people with whom I might wish to communicate? If I admit that, then notions of empathy or even projection would have to be abandoned. And even if the expression, "I know how you feel," can never be totally true, it can often be sufficiently true to permit varying degrees of understanding between two people.
So, no, I can not agree that all my "internal, subjective experiences" are always completely useless for other people.
Beyond the possibility of vast differences between your "qualia" and mine, at some level, there are obvious similarities, some common points of reference.
The only question that remains to be answered on that point (and it is far from being a negligible one) is "How can I distinguish between the areas of overlap, and the areas that are unique to one single human being?"
(When I was ten years old, my intellectual 15 year-old sister used to taunt me with things like, "Do not do unto others as you would have them do unto you - they might have different tastes.")

The second point, which is so huge that I failed to notice it when reading your post, is this : my epiphany experience did not occur as a result of another person's internal, subjective experience. And yes, the "temporary brain infarction" explanation could work very well here. Maybe a few deep-breathing exercises would have made it all go away.
Maybe Saul of Tarsus had an epileptic fit.
But are temporary brain infarctions and epileptic fits life-changing?

Could a brain infarction make me perceive so many things differently? Could it open to me to a greater sensation of love - given and received?
But that is not the point. For the moment, at least.
The point is that nobody told me that I could have the experience of God the way I did. Nobody else's internal, subjective experience procured it for me. So why should I worry about the usefulness of my internal, subjective experience for other people?
Something else is going on here.
If you have never, ever tasted salt, there is no way I could describe the taste of "saltiness" to you. You could only discover it for yourself.
If you have never stood on the parapet of a 90 metre high bridge, and felt the pure terror of throwing yourself into the void, even though you've paid good money to have someone attach you to an elastic rope, then I could never find adequate words to communicate that sensation to you. (and, yes, I've done that!)
As I said, I haven't finished thinking this one through yet. Thank you for bearing with me thus far. I sense that "Measured empathy and controlled projection" will become important notions here.
And, without wishing to spark off an avalanche of insults, I must include this idea, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith, and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God"

7. The Neural Buddhists

Comment #180362 by Richard Morgan on May 14, 2008 at 4:48 pm

Quine

That is where we are all starting from, and your internal subjective experiences are not useful for us no matter how real they seem to you.

Yep. And that is my "hard problem".
But I'm working on it.

righton - don't be sorry. I'm sorry for you, that reading my posts makes you nauseous. Have you tried Alka-Seltzer? Or Maalox? Or just not reading my posts?

Goldy - I still haven't forgiven you for that UFO experience! I was driving it at the time!
Do you know the Edgar Allen Poe stories concerning sleep paralysis? Fun reading matter.

8. The Neural Buddhists

Comment #180354 by Richard Morgan on May 14, 2008 at 4:39 pm

Diacanu

Tch, humor is always the first to go under Jesus-freakery.

How right you are! I enjoy a good laugh so much that I'm happy I've never got involved in Jesus-freakery!
As my psychoanalyst used to say : "You shall know the truth, and the truth will make you laugh!"
Or, better still, since I'm a part-time musician:
"Our mouths were filled with laughter, our tongues with songs of joy. " (Psalm 126 : 2)

9. The Neural Buddhists

Comment #180350 by Richard Morgan on May 14, 2008 at 4:32 pm

Quine - thank you so much for your comment.
Hey - I didn't expect anything to be different - it's me that's different.
You're absolutely right - I am perfectly familiar with the "Evidence! Evidence!" mantra (been there, done that, bought the t-shirt etc).
And if I'd had visits from supernatural beings, I think I would have immediately grabbed for a handful of Prozac or some such!
Also it is not so much that believers are always being pushed back by questions, but rather, as I once remarked here as an atheist, whatever the answers, they would always be given a materialistic explanation.
At that level, going away is all that's left!
I sometimes think that if God appeared before a group of scientists and did a demonstration of creating a universe for them, or even just a humble star, the reactions would likely be:
"Can you do that again, please, a little more slowly?" or
"Where have you published your notes, and how can I get hold of a copy?" or
"Now can you show us how you did that?"
It's all a question of terms of reference, isn't it?
Life-changing experiences (nothing fuzzy here!) as temporary brain infarctions? Why not? Sure beats the heck out of pizza excesses.

10. The Neural Buddhists

Comment #180341 by Richard Morgan on May 14, 2008 at 4:07 pm

Goldy! How nice to see you again!

I think religious experiences can be verified by scientific method.

Don't you mean that the brain activity can be observed during certain experiences labelled "religious" or "mystical" and perhaps be replicated?
If so, I'm going to have to boringly repeat my question about consciousness and qualia.
There is, on the one hand, the subjective experience, and on the other, an interpretation of the experience. Which begs the question of where in the brain is the experience happening, and where else are the interpretations being made. (By this I mean the phenomenon of "attributing a sense".) I hope I'm not appearing more schizophrenic than usual here!
I certainly remember that as a Mormon in a long distant past, I used to hear the "whisperings of the Spirit" in very negative terms when I had eaten too much pizza the previous night. (Curiously, excesses of chicken korma shut the whisperings off altogether...)
Also, I am wondering if the experience that I refer to as my "epiphany experience" is repeatable.
(William Sargent studied the neurology of conversion experiences in some depth, and incidentally ended up developing the pre-frontal lobotomy.)
Please, tell me what you think about the qualia aspect of all this! Nobody else seems to wish to talk about it, yet it seems to me to be absolutely central to this kind of discussion. In this thread.

11. The Neural Buddhists

Comment #180323 by Richard Morgan on May 14, 2008 at 3:15 pm

PBUM -

Then why bring him in with comments like:

BTW - Jesus had some very kind things to say about the weak and the ignorant

?

Because when it serves my purposes to serve cherries, I cherry-pick!
I don't consider this to be less useful than

Fuck it up the ass with a red rubber dick.

12. The Neural Buddhists

Comment #180288 by Richard Morgan on May 14, 2008 at 1:50 pm

PBUM

Can you answer me? I want to know why Jesus being a nice guy is important.

I never said He was nice guy, so I don't really know how to answer your question.
(You're right - the sock-puppet incident is still an embarrassment to me!)

I think the mix of intelligence and fun here is about as good as it gets.

My son, who has more experience of internet fora confirms that this is more or less correct. RDRNet was my very first internet experience of this kind. And I certainly don't regret it!

its not front page news, boy.

You're missing the point, you naughty boy! I was replying to requests, not front-paging anything!
Oh dear, if I fail to reply to questions, I get criticised. And when I do reply to a question, I get criticised.

Anybody interested in getting back on topic and talking about the problems of consciousness and qualia?

(I have re-opened PM access so if you do want to have further details, you can PM me.)

13. The Neural Buddhists

Comment #180254 by Richard Morgan on May 14, 2008 at 12:40 pm

al-rawandi : you naughty boy! Have you never inadvertently clicked on something, somewhere before you finished writing a comment? The only way to continue is by using the edit function! The "short" version can only have appeared for a minute or so.

14. The Neural Buddhists

Comment #180249 by Richard Morgan on May 14, 2008 at 12:38 pm

Diacanu - you're right. My remark was unkind. Please note that I have edited out the offensive words.
Pass the popcorn, please.

15. The Neural Buddhists

Comment #180238 by Richard Morgan on May 14, 2008 at 12:25 pm

Max D

Adopting the scientific posture enables the freedom you don't think is there.

I have never denied that the scientific posture enables considerable intellectual freedom.
(Pat answer N° 1) But I have found a new freedom which I was unable find either in the intellectual brilliance of some posters here, (not this particular thread, alas) or in the "hate'n'bile", mockery posts.(EDITED)

You see my world view can adopt new phenomena and their explanation as evidence comes in to support them.

New phenomena? Religious and mystical experiences are "new" phenomena? I think maybe I ma misunderstanding your use of the word "new" in this context.
And forgive me for being a little suspicious when I read that "consciousness...all boils down" to something. Have you read Pinker on "The Mystery of Consciousness" - "the hard question"?

It is also interesting to read how atheists here are happy to try to describe an experience they have never had. Their favourite word is "fuzzy", but I can assure you that the epiphany experience I had on April 12th was anything but "fuzzy".
Which brings me to my unanswered point about "qualia" (And I think that this is a good thread for speaking about qualia - don't you?)Maybe you have something to say on that subject?

it is hard to avoid this clear thinking oasis I know.

Just out of interest, how many of the 86 posts in this thread would answer your definition of "clear-thinking"?

Sauveterre (and anybody else who is interested) - if you are motivated by a genuine sense of inquiry concerning my epiphany experience, then I would be happy to send you a copy. But if you are just looking for another opportunity to mock and insult me, I think I'll have to ask for a rain-check on this one. (Although, if you are really interested, you could find what you want in a few seconds on Google.)
annabana - Er, which post do you think I edited? I don't know what you're referring to here. (Whenever I have edited a post, I have always tried to do the honest thing, signify the fact by prefixing it with "EDIT")

16. The Neural Buddhists

Comment #180174 by Richard Morgan on May 14, 2008 at 10:34 am

Lucas : a most interesting post!

There is indeed a numinous feeling attainable by humans, and this is most definitely attained by the proper coaxing of the brain, with mediation, LSD, or whatever.

My question is this: how does saying that it's all down to molecules and neurones make "atheism" any less "strict and closed"? Are you saying that since that which is apparently being perceived in the "religious" experience in unverifiable by scientific method, it's best to stick to the experience of perception which can observed and described to a certain extent?
If so, what do you make of the whole "qualia" aspect of all this?

17. The Neural Buddhists

Comment #180042 by Richard Morgan on May 14, 2008 at 6:17 am

al-rawandi :

"Richard Morgan,
You are weak and ignorant."

50% correct.

"A sick person who finds Jesus."

Thankfully, correct.

"For about the 3rd time no less."

Incorrect : the first time.

18. The Neural Buddhists

Comment #180024 by Richard Morgan on May 14, 2008 at 5:52 am

Nails :

Bottom line, religion is for those too weak psychologically to cope with life; or too stupid to open their eyes.

So religion is for the weak and the ignorant?
That's an interesting way of describing most of the human race.
Does that mean that atheists are psychologically "strong"? Or "intelligent"? A sort of intellectual elite?
Just wondering.

BTW - Jesus had some very kind things to say about the weak and the ignorant, so perhaps you're right!

19. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #173656 by Richard Morgan on May 1, 2008 at 4:10 am

"An epiphany"
This composition is for all those people that I have had the privilege of meeting here on RDNet.
Your knowledge, insights, intelligence and anger have opened my eyes to more than I could have imagined.
"Meeting" some of you by e-mail or messenger-style chats has given me a deeper understanding of human nature, and human needs.
Some of you have opened your hearts to me, as I have to you, and that contact I consider a priceless gift.
We all hurt, don't we?
And in seeking relief from our pain, grief, anguish and frustration I suppose we all end up doing what Steve Zara expresses as "Whatever works for you."

Some fill their lives in lofty, soaring intellectual pursuits. What can I say. An "MPhil" is a rare and precious person. I haven't mat many in my life. Thank you, MPhil for sharing the brilliance of your reasoning powers with RD.Netters.
Others express their anger, frustration and pain by multiplying insults and f*** words. I don't know if you find lasting relief in that, but it certainly helps the rest of us avoid becoming complacent.

I don't know how to qualify "miracles", but perhaps finding God in Richard Dawkins' "clear-thinking oasis" could fall into that category!
"We can love, because he first loved us" these words are at the heart of my epiphany experience.
Love does not exclude science, reason and logic, but I have discovered that God's love, revealed through Christ, embraces all that, and then opens a door on eternity.
Yep, we all hurt.
The latest scientific studies prove quite conclusively that nobody is perfect.
So what are we going to do about it?
May I paraphrase one of your favourite expressions - "Get yourself loved, and then get yourself loving."
There is a source of perfect love.

"God so loved the world..." is where it all started.

If only I could share with you the "Big Bang" in my heart...

http://www.myspace.com/morgansorigianls

20. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #173048 by Richard Morgan on April 30, 2008 at 9:10 am

For my friends on RDNet, especially S.Z, P.K. and B.E.
And for those whose knowledge and wisdom have taught me so much, especially, S.Z., MPhil and Dr Benway.
And for those, who, behind intellectual brilliance hide a profound emotional anguish, especially.....

http://www.myspace.com/morgansoriginals

21. Fleabytes

Comment #173044 by Richard Morgan on April 30, 2008 at 9:08 am

22. The Lava Lizard's Tale

Comment #158065 by Richard Morgan on April 10, 2008 at 3:33 am

Because music is a universal language, apparently.

So, I leave you with this:

http://www.myspace.com/morgansoriginals

Goodbye, and thanks for all the fish.

23. Fleabytes

Comment #157432 by Richard Morgan on April 9, 2008 at 4:53 am

http://www.myspace.com/morgansoriginals

(Yes - I am the phantom deleter.)

24. 'We Make Our Own Heaven'

Comment #151614 by Richard Morgan on March 29, 2008 at 4:09 am

textnotspeech : WELCOME

Fucktard!
Pervert!
Liar!
Troll!

(actually none of that is true, but I just wanted you to get used to the sort of thing that sometimes goes on here amongst us atheist intellectuals.)
I'm looking forward to your comments. (But if you f*cking disagree with me, you can go and f*ck around with DR and all the other faithheads.)
I hope you're getting the hang of it now.
Do have a nice week-end.

25. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #151580 by Richard Morgan on March 29, 2008 at 2:40 am

Jon_Sociologist : Saw a parade, had to pee...aitch dee?

http://www.myspace.com/fleabytes

26. 'We Make Our Own Heaven'

Comment #151462 by Richard Morgan on March 28, 2008 at 6:35 pm

This kind of "teaching critical thinking" has been on the school programme in France for a long time.
All high school students take an exam in "Philosophie" in order to graduate.
Which explains why, in France, religion is not really considered to be a serious business, all the young people are critical thinkers and to prove it they nearly all wear Nike trainers, caps the wrong way round, and work on their cholesterol levels in the local Macdonalds.
Then when they grow up, and become freethinking adults, the beat all the records for the use of psychoactive drugs, homoeopathic remedies, and visits to the astrologist, faith healer or medium.

Yep - free-thinking, critical thinking has had a powerful impact on French youth.

27. Iowa county board gives initial OK for ghost hunters to investigate asylum

Comment #151438 by Richard Morgan on March 28, 2008 at 5:37 pm

Hehehehe! I'm going to astrally project myself into the Asylum when the "paranormal" team is interviewing ghosts.
I'll have the machines record my voice, and I'll say, in my ghostly British accent....

...

Over to you guys - anybody feel like writing my script?
This is going to be fun.

28. Expelled Overview

Comment #151312 by Richard Morgan on March 28, 2008 at 1:19 pm

MUSIC (well, sort of) UPDATE

"A Major Modern Atheist1.1 : an MP3"
Words : Cartomancer;
Music : some other guy...

"EXPELLED : another hole in their socks."

(scroll down to the Standalone Player)

http://www.myspace;com/fleabytes

29. Happy Birthday, Richard Dawkins!

Comment #151309 by Richard Morgan on March 28, 2008 at 1:17 pm

MUSIC (well, sort of) UPDATE

"A Major Modern Atheist1.1 : an MP3"
Words : Cartomancer;
Music : some other guy...

"EXPELLED : another hole in their socks."

(scroll down to the Standalone Player)

http://www.myspace.com/fleabytes

30. Sue Blackmore debates Alister McGrath

Comment #151307 by Richard Morgan on March 28, 2008 at 1:15 pm

MUSIC (well, sort of) UPDATE

"A Major Modern Atheist1.1 : an MP3"

"EXPELLED : another hole in their socks."

(scroll down to the Standalone Player)

http://www.myspace.com/fleabytes

31. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #151306 by Richard Morgan on March 28, 2008 at 1:11 pm

MUSIC (well, sort of) UPDATE

"A Major Modern Atheist1.1 : an MP3"

"EXPELLED : another hole in their socks."

(scroll down to the Standalone Player)

http://www.myspace.com/fleabytes

32. Fossil find could be Europe's first humans

Comment #151266 by Richard Morgan on March 28, 2008 at 10:53 am