1. I'm Not One Of Those 'Love Thy Neighbor' Christians

Comment #288622 by SPS on November 22, 2008 at 5:03 am

Steve,

Thanks for taking the time. I've enjoyed our conversation. Maybe we'll take it up again later, but it's almost breakfast time. Got to go for now.

2. I'm Not One Of Those 'Love Thy Neighbor' Christians

Comment #288619 by SPS on November 22, 2008 at 5:00 am

And in years to come we will be close to some other advance, and so on, and so on - I hope. I don't think we have seen all there is to be seen, or know all there is to be known.
To me, that's the only assumption that need be made.

3. I'm Not One Of Those 'Love Thy Neighbor' Christians

Comment #288610 by SPS on November 22, 2008 at 4:47 am

Undetectability can result by the limits of our instruments, by intention, or natural occurrence, or variations thereof.

Villages in Africa see planes flying over.

4. I'm Not One Of Those 'Love Thy Neighbor' Christians

Comment #288602 by SPS on November 22, 2008 at 4:27 am

Steve,

I don't think they would need to be hiding. They would only need to be unrealized by us, undetected. We don't see things at the atomic level naturally, but we know they're there, and not because we were happy in our knowledge before being able to do that.

But all members of an alien civilization would have to feel like that all the time.

5. I'm Not One Of Those 'Love Thy Neighbor' Christians

Comment #288595 by SPS on November 22, 2008 at 4:02 am

Steve,

I'm saying that it needn't be an option of either 'ground' or 'hyperspace'. I'm saying we haven't reached the limits of inquiry which may change our perspective on what we know today.
We can either extrapolate based on our current knowledge, and close the book on further inquiry, or we can go forward.

You mean that absolutely no-one in that race would ever want to take a trip to the stars?

6. I'm Not One Of Those 'Love Thy Neighbor' Christians

Comment #288353 by SPS on November 21, 2008 at 4:02 pm

Comment #288269 by Steve Zara

Suppose you come across a vast field of grass. The only footprints you see are your own. With your telescopes you can see the grass for miles and miles around. Someone questions if others have been walking around. You see no footprints. And then, the arguments start .... "they have been walking on stilts"... "before they walked, they developed ways to hover above the grass".

That is the level of argument we sometimes see from those who support the idea of alien space-faring life.

7. I'm Not One Of Those 'Love Thy Neighbor' Christians

Comment #288196 by SPS on November 21, 2008 at 10:21 am

Steve,

Maybe. But it'd be ashame not to look, eh'

8. I'm Not One Of Those 'Love Thy Neighbor' Christians

Comment #288190 by SPS on November 21, 2008 at 10:12 am

Why assume we know how alien civilizations harness power, or that a particularly long-lived alien race would hold a continued interest in reproduction and colonization'

9. I'm Not One Of Those 'Love Thy Neighbor' Christians

Comment #287798 by SPS on November 20, 2008 at 4:43 pm

ty90,

Be prepared for advice to be wrong - a lot. Sometimes it will be best to take your own counsel and dispatch with the rest. In either case, no advice is beyond reproach, and will be valued in the light of understanding.

Happy Birthday!

...and it can help to have a sense of humor.

Blessing,
Any thread is about whatever someone posts about and others pick up on, not always the article or topic at hand.

By the way, love The Onion!

10. Hitchens Debates Rabbi Wolpe on God

Comment #282495 by SPS on November 12, 2008 at 9:39 am

There's a recent article at discovermagazine.com about the fine-tuning argument here.

11. Gay Marriage Outlawed in California

Comment #279241 by SPS on November 5, 2008 at 6:30 pm

Cartomancer,
Excellent!

sizzle1,

Whatever one may consider tradition, freedoms must be deferred to, similar to the toleration those of one religion show to another religion in a diverse society despite each religion's claim to being the 'true' religion, else risking that your religion will be the one to be quashed, and its members discriminated against.

Steve,
One reason homophobia may be incorporated in, stem, and persist from religion is the simple link to be made between procreation between male and female and then the easy progression to the notion that this is the order imposed by a supernatural creative force for all life, of which any deviation could be considered to be in opposition to that creative force or 'god' and the 'natural order' imposed by said god. The 'natural' order born of the supernatural, and therefore 'good' and 'true' order.
In other words, 'god' is like us (or vice versa), so that which is not like us is against god and the 'order' god has put in place.

12. Gay Marriage Outlawed in California

Comment #279112 by SPS on November 5, 2008 at 2:48 pm

This reminds me of what Sam Harris wrote:

Anyone who believes that God is watching us from beyond the stars will feel that punishing peaceful men and women for their private pleasure is perfectly reasonable. We are now in the twenty-first century. Perhaps we should have better reasons for depriving our neighbors of their liberty at gunpoint. Given the magnitude of the real problems that confront us – terrorism, nuclear proliferation, the spread of infectious disease, failing infrastructure, lack of adequate funds for education and health care, etc. – our war on sin is so outrageously unwise as to almost defy rational comment. How have we grown so blind to our deeper interests? And how have we managed to enact such policies with so little substantive debate?

13. Barack Obama Exposes The Bible

Comment #275109 by SPS on October 30, 2008 at 7:53 pm

Regarding society and its potential, in my opinion, we shouldn't take the limitation of history to decide for us what is possible for our future.
If there is to be redistribution of wealth, it should be accompanied by a redistribution of power.

14. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #271036 by SPS on October 25, 2008 at 7:20 am

http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/ea0b05d406

Regarding self-reliance and the individual, self-reliance also applies, and perhaps much more so, to groups, with similar basic needs and goals who can have agreed upon, consistent and reliable means of meeting those needs and attaining those goals, which can take the form of a tax. To limit self-reliance to the individual is to deny any connection to commonality, and restrict the individual to the purview of his/her needs with a decreased means of meeting them which commonality can provide.
Regarding greed as compared to the notion of 'theft' by taxes, there are two methods that come to mind for attaining profit; paying less than actual value (e.g., for labor), charging more than cost (e.g., for a product or service). Greed has a narrower scope in its goal, of which the illusion of choice can supersede the importance of actual choice given to those from whom its profit is gained, since the goal is not to honestly, thoroughly and aptly meet a need or demand, but is instead to increase demand by whatever means in order to capture and inflate a continued need for profit.

15. Recommended Reading: Society without God: What the Least Religious Nations Can Tell Us About Contentment

Comment #270735 by SPS on October 24, 2008 at 2:41 pm

Apeseed,

There's an article from yesterday about it in the nytimes.com,
Greenspan Concedes Error on Regulation

16. Recommended Reading: Society without God: What the Least Religious Nations Can Tell Us About Contentment

Comment #269767 by SPS on October 23, 2008 at 9:57 am

DP and polestar,

I suspect greed is the more likely suspect, as I didn't seen any mandate to make bad loans mentioned.
At the end of the wikipedia page there are sections worth reading titled 'Relation to 2008 financial crisis', 'Housing advocacy groups', and 'Predatory Lending'
( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_Reinvestment_Act )

17. Recommended Reading: Society without God: What the Least Religious Nations Can Tell Us About Contentment

Comment #269595 by SPS on October 23, 2008 at 7:02 am

polestar,

If by 'redlining' you're referring to the Community Reinvestment Act (CRA), I can tell you that lending institutions are under no obligation to lend to those who don't qualify. The Act was also signed into law in 1977.

This is from wikipedia:

The CRA mandates that all banking institutions that receive FDIC insurance be evaluated by the relevant banking regulatory agencies to determine if the institution has met the credit needs of its entire community in a manner consistent with safe and sound operations.[2] The CRA does not list specific criteria for evaluating the performance of financial institutions. Rather, the law directs that the evaluation process should accommodate the situation and context of each individual institution. The law also does not require institutions to make high-risk loans that may bring losses to the institution, instead the law emphasizes that an institution's CRA activities should be undertaken in a safe and sound manner.[2][7] There are no specific penalties for non-compliance with the CRA. However, an institution's CRA compliance record is taken into account by the banking regulatory agencies when the institution seeks to expand through merger, acquisition or branching.

18. From Science Fiction to Science Fact

Comment #269180 by SPS on October 22, 2008 at 5:51 pm

Infuriated,

Thanks.

Edit:
And thanks to Tauriq for the article.

19. Recommended Reading: Society without God: What the Least Religious Nations Can Tell Us About Contentment

Comment #269148 by SPS on October 22, 2008 at 5:01 pm

The problem with free market 'success' is that it is defined by the prevalent system of which there will be a group that has a distinct advantage of wealth, resources, and influence whose interest is to maintain and grow their advantage by maintaining their position and influence over the parameters of the system in which they've 'succeeded'.
'Success' is a bit of an arbitrary term. An aggressor whose goal is to exterminate a population, take their land and resources, might be said to have 'succeeded' by the aggressor's own definition. The terms of success would be limited to the aggressor's definition by the predefined goal of their ambition.

20. Recommended Reading: Society without God: What the Least Religious Nations Can Tell Us About Contentment

Comment #269083 by SPS on October 22, 2008 at 3:26 pm

I tend to think any recurring interaction among people will inevitably create systems of which there will be adherents and detractors. Agreed upon behavior by members of a group would seem to have clear survival and communication advantages over the abandonment of predictable 'morals'/behaviors in favor of the unpredictability of individual self-interest.

21. All aboard the atheist bus campaign

Comment #268301 by SPS on October 21, 2008 at 4:45 pm

Diacanu,

I don't think your party-pooping. I usually have a somewhat dim view of marketing/advertising in general, but I suppose there are exceptions. Dissent is important. Keep it coming.

22. All aboard the atheist bus campaign

Comment #268276 by SPS on October 21, 2008 at 4:10 pm

Richard,

I like your suggestions.

If there are going to be slogans consider:

Faith ≠ Evidence

23. All aboard the atheist bus campaign

Comment #268253 by SPS on October 21, 2008 at 3:34 pm

Richard,

Try using the html code

24. A 'values' voter speaks her mind on Obama

Comment #267532 by SPS on October 20, 2008 at 4:16 pm

I disagree with this woman, but she should certainly have the right to vote. I find given enough time, patience, and exposure to diverse views, people will often reveal themselves to be quite a bit different and more flexible in their thinking than can be gathered by a first impression. An individual's views should not be suppressed or dismissed due to unpopularity in a free society.

That being said, I think the phrase 'common good' is too often maligned. What about education, public roads, police and fire departments, justice? For that matter what about the common good of 'rights'? As a society, we are stating that we value these things whether or not a member of that society sees them as an imposition on their tax dollars or their personal views. The notion and enforcement of the 'common good' isn't confined to socialism.

25. From Science Fiction to Science Fact

Comment #267290 by SPS on October 20, 2008 at 12:05 pm

It's one thing to state that something like 'warp drive' may be possible, and explaining why, as compared to denying something like climate change because there isn't universal consensus in the scientific community. The former is to pique the public's interest, the latter to propagandize to suit an agenda. I would hope that any fairly reasonable person will take in information with the awareness that they are not an expert in a particular field (unless they are), and will defer to those who are, while remaining open to learning more. To do away with speculation or simplification of the complex is also to risk growing the public disinterest in science, and what it may mean to them individually and to society as a whole.

Edit: Changed word.

26. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #266531 by SPS on October 19, 2008 at 8:19 am

Thanks for posting that link, Titania. I read that he would be endorsing Obama soon. He gave quite an eloquent preface to the endorsement as well.

Great post, Frankus.

27. Free to Think for Themselves

Comment #266503 by SPS on October 19, 2008 at 6:07 am

Comment #266496

Excellent post, decius.

28. From Science Fiction to Science Fact

Comment #266497 by SPS on October 19, 2008 at 5:52 am

Science is not only about what is, but is also about what can be. It is as much a tool of the imagination as it is a means of measuring reality. Speculation can be born out of perspective and hope. This is not limited to the area of scientific thought, nor is it an ignoble attribute. It is not a waste in the same way that da Vinci's drawings were not a waste. Sure, speculation has the potential to do more harm than good, but so does actual scientific knowledge. I think it is a matter of emphasizing the hopeful over the fearful.

29. Faith Attack

Comment #265939 by SPS on October 17, 2008 at 3:50 pm

Diacanu,

Sam Harris has a section on his site called 'Response to Controversy'
( http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/response-to-controversy2/ )

My discussion of killing people "for what they believe" (pages 52-53 of The End of Faith):

The following passage seems to have been selectively quoted, and misconstrued, more than any I have written:

The link between belief and behavior raises the stakes considerably. Some propositions are so dangerous that it may even be ethical to kill people for believing them. This may seem an extraordinary claim, but it merely enunciates an ordinary fact about the world in which we live. Certain beliefs place their adherents beyond the reach of every peaceful means of persuasion, while inspiring them to commit acts of extraordinary violence against others. There is, in fact, no talking to some people. If they cannot be captured, and they often cannot, otherwise tolerant people may be justified in killing them in self-defense. This is what the United States attempted in Afghanistan, and it is what we and other Western powers are bound to attempt, at an even greater cost to ourselves and to innocents abroad, elsewhere in the Muslim world. We will continue to spill blood in what is, at bottom, a war of ideas.

This paragraph appears after a long discussion of the role that belief plays in governing human behavior, and it should be read in that context. Some critics have interpreted the second sentence of this passage to mean that I advocate simply killing religious people for their beliefs. Granted, I made the job of misinterpreting me easier than it might have been, but such a reading remains a frank distortion of my views. Read in context, it should be clear that I am not at all ignoring the link between belief and behavior. The fact that belief determines behavior is what makes certain beliefs so dangerous.

When one asks why it would be ethical to drop a bomb on Osama bin Laden or Ayman Al Zawahiri, the answer cannot be, "because they have killed so many people in the past." These men haven't, to my knowledge, killed anyone personally. However, they are likely to get a lot of innocent people killed because of what they and their followers believe about jihad, martyrdom, the ascendancy of Islam, etc. As I argued in The End of Faith, a willingness to take preventative action against a dangerous enemy is compatible with being against the death penalty (which I am). Whenever we can capture and imprison jihadists, we should. But in most cases this is impossible.

30. Volcanic lightning may have sparked life on Earth

Comment #265857 by SPS on October 17, 2008 at 12:03 pm

There's another article at sciam.com about this topic. Very interesting, and a good read:
Using Math to Explain How Life on Earth Began

31. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #264536 by SPS on October 14, 2008 at 5:29 pm

The Certainty Bias: A Potentially Dangerous Mental Flaw

32. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #263158 by SPS on October 10, 2008 at 10:34 am

As far as how national/universal healthcare will be paid for - we pay for healthcare now in the U.S., except we pay it to companies doing their best to squeeze the most profit out of every dollar. An individual's well-being is not the priorty or the motivator. 'Sicko' by Michael Moore is mainly about people who have heath care insurance, and shows how companies fail those they insure. Worth a watch. Among other things, the movie illustrates how people are not put in a position to speak up, to take action. When a graduate gets out of college they will often find themselves in debt with student loans, and without health insurance. Given this, there is little incentive/opportunity to push back against a system that has you under its thumb, when not being able to pay your bills or afford health care is an ever present possibility. I don't have the time or inclination to debate about this, just getting my opinion out.

On a somewhat related topic, there's this article in the nytimes.com about Palin, taxes, and patriotism;
Palin's Kind of Patriotism

Edit for clarity. Edit: changed word.

33. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #261764 by SPS on October 7, 2008 at 10:35 am

Al,

I don't know enough about Noam Chomsky to speak about his character, but regarding Sam Harris and Chomsky, Harris did write in The End of Faith that Chomsky "appears to be an exquisitely moral man".

Looks like there was an interesting thread about Chomsky on rd.net from 2007. That particular line is within this comment:

http://richarddawkins.net/articleComments,1842,Neuroscience-and-Moral-Politics-Chomskys-Intellectual-Progeny,Gary-Olson,page2#86321

I haven't had a chance to read through much of that thread.

34. 'Space elevator' would take humans into orbit

Comment #260181 by SPS on October 4, 2008 at 8:27 pm

Pure speculation - a space elevator comprised of a self-raising, self-powered, collapsible latticework.

35. Bill Maher's Religulous Opens Today

Comment #259920 by SPS on October 4, 2008 at 7:35 am

I saw this last night. It was good, a little repetitive at times, but good. Well worth a watch, I think. Any regular visitor to rd.net will be familiar with much of the subject matter.
Once the movie has run its course, the makers should consider public showings and offering it for free download/streaming.

36. 'Space elevator' would take humans into orbit

Comment #259913 by SPS on October 4, 2008 at 7:02 am

What we need is allocation and motivation, but unfortunately, we've latched our dream to reality to wayward capital.

37. 'Space elevator' would take humans into orbit

Comment #259744 by SPS on October 3, 2008 at 8:17 pm

I wonder if something similar to a maglev train system could be used.

38. Bill Maher's Religulous Opens Today

Comment #259486 by SPS on October 3, 2008 at 12:19 pm

There's a pretty good review of Religulous at cinemablend.com, here.

And this has nothing to do with it, but I couldn't help but laugh when I saw the title of this article at space.com.

39. Bill Maher's Religulous Opens Today

Comment #259376 by SPS on October 3, 2008 at 9:53 am

Going to see this tonight...

40. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #259067 by SPS on October 2, 2008 at 8:20 pm

I agree, Cartomancer. I found the use of 'tolerant' and 'traditional view of marriage' pretty offensive and wrongheaded - and I'm not gay.

41. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #259059 by SPS on October 2, 2008 at 8:10 pm

I was disappointed Palin didn't send a 'shout out' to Santa Claus, seeing he lives so close to Alaska and all.
Winner: Biden.

42. Earliest reference describes Christ as 'magician'

Comment #258284 by SPS on October 1, 2008 at 6:17 pm

Bonzai,

If I recall correctly, she wore a large-brimmed hat. There may have been a veil, don't know. I suspect she may have been wearing a coat prior to entering the bank, but I'm not sure.

43. Earliest reference describes Christ as 'magician'

Comment #258273 by SPS on October 1, 2008 at 5:37 pm

Goldy,

I heard about a story years ago about a woman who robbed a bank while wearing a sheer, see-through shirt, supposedly to distract people from looking at her face.
When will the tyranny of the topless end!

Edit: Shakes fist in air.

44. Earliest reference describes Christ as 'magician'

Comment #258232 by SPS on October 1, 2008 at 4:19 pm

Sciros,

Yes I used "y'all" and "bollocks" in the same sentence.

45. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #256934 by SPS on September 29, 2008 at 6:58 pm

Read this article today,

Muslim Children Gassed at Dayton Mosque After Obsession DVD Hits Ohio.

46. Palin: average isn't good enough

Comment #256914 by SPS on September 29, 2008 at 6:04 pm

Sorry to be off the more prevalent topic.

Can it be demonstrated why socialism leads to mass slaughter? I see it come up every so often that socialism or communism resulted in a hundred million deaths. Isn't this a bit like attributing it to atheism? Another phrase that pops up now and again as a derogatory is something like 'oh, but that's not real socialism'. Is this to suggest that there can only be one kind without variation? Capitalism comes with variations, no? Why not socialism? I don't see anyone saying derogatorily 'oh, but, that isn't real capitalism' (though maybe it should be said), when a failing of capitalism is presented. To my thinking, atrocities often follow by enforcement of an agenda where there is an imbalance of power and lack of consequence for those in power.

I disagree with the notion of root cause considered sin. Root cause is often just the point where we stop caring why there is a threat compared to what we want to do about it.

47. A biologist reviews an evolution textbook from the ID camp

Comment #255001 by SPS on September 26, 2008 at 2:56 pm

Could we get them to do the entire Bible?

48. Diamonds May Be Life's Birthstone

Comment #254983 by SPS on September 26, 2008 at 2:18 pm

There's a list of articles at talkorigins.org about abiogenesis if anyone is inclined to take a look.

Abiogenesis FAQs

49. Russian woman put on trial in Dubai for drinking juice in public

Comment #254497 by SPS on September 25, 2008 at 7:18 pm

Information about laws that may be, and can be presumed to be, peculiar to many visitors should be made readily available to those visitors within those popular destinations if for no other reason than to encourage lawful behavior, if the intent is to actually enforce those laws.

50. Russian woman put on trial in Dubai for drinking juice in public

Comment #254466 by SPS on September 25, 2008 at 5:45 pm

Greybishop,

Pretty easy then if you do the right search. I typed in 'laws of Dubai', and had more difficulty.