1. Surviving an unholy school war

Comment #181929 by MattInOz on May 18, 2008 at 8:21 pm

Aussie Catholic "education" from Years 1 to 12 for me, largely from the boys in dresses.

Weapons of choice are seared on my brain even though I largely managed to avoid it all. (sometimes you just couldn't no matter how well behaved you were)

Year 1 - wooden metre-long ruler, used to 'play cricket' where YOU were the ball.

Year 2 - feather duster called "Earnie"

Year 3,4 - nice (female) teachers

NB my priest from this early era served jail time.

Year 5 - mini cricket bat called "Killer" with name of each year's 'first-struck' inscribed upon the face - I kid you not.

Year 6 - 5 foot long bamboo cane

Year 7 - 6-ply stitched leather strap (I think called 'Thrasher' though wouldn't swear to this one)

Year 8 - metal foot long ruler over the back of the knuckles (the wielder of which is also in jail for more notorious deeds)

Years 9-12 - a noticably declining use of the bamboo cane, generally restricted in application to headmaster.
(After all, we were entering the nineties by now!!! - yes, can you believe that.)

Aaaah, the beauties of religion.

Matt

2. Ayaan Hirsi Ali asks for protection

Comment #127950 by MattInOz on February 15, 2008 at 7:31 pm

Yeah John, I just signed up for the recurring monthly $25 a couple of months ago as I figured that's nothing in the long run. You could spend that on beer OR have Aayan continue to work for the emancipation of Muslim women and the furthering the wider rationalistic cause... a no brainer really.

3. Ayaan Hirsi Ali asks for protection

Comment #127946 by MattInOz on February 15, 2008 at 7:20 pm

I for one feel extremely strongly that people like Aayan should be given access to the full protection of the law by default when playing such a pivotal and outspoken role. The danger for someone like her is very real.

Incidently, does anyone know where we can get an update as to whether the proceeds of Sam's appeal have reached their targets (or are close)? Entries such as this one suggest not....

4. Letters: Theology has no place in a university

Comment #74912 by MattInOz on October 1, 2007 at 5:28 am

Richard,

How do you not tire of the repetition? I wish you all the best in the pending "engagements". You're probably just best to stick to coffee and the football results.....

5. There Go The Dinosaurs

Comment #74066 by MattInOz on September 27, 2007 at 6:30 am

Steveroot comment #64

You sound like my grandmother when confronted with such troubling trivialities... :-)

6. There Go The Dinosaurs

Comment #74065 by MattInOz on September 27, 2007 at 6:27 am

_J_

Oh yes, there is no doubting that the bible is chock full of wonderful metaphor and has the odd turn of phrase that beautifully captures the human condition/spirit. It would surely not have been such a successful meme if it were otherwise. As Dawkins and others point out, it should be compulsary learning, not only to highlight its inherent self-contradiction but also to show where we get so much of our day to day language. Shakespeare's plays would be the poorer without that shared terminology.

Now if only I could get my friend on board with Thomas.... Trouble is, he's already said something to the effect that "the amazing corroborating eyewitness accounts that echo across 2000 years" are enough for him. Aaaaaargh! He should get to a modern law court and see what constitutes evidence there. I think CS Lewis has a lot to answer for!

7. There Go The Dinosaurs

Comment #73948 by MattInOz on September 26, 2007 at 7:46 pm

pewkatchoo

Great idea, I will definitely give things a try from that angle.

_J_

I agree whole-heartedly that the rise in adrenaline plays a big part with me too and I really need to bear that in mind. As I start to see the ridiculous direction in which any particular age-old argument is heading, I move to cut him short with answers that WE all know have long since supplanted their objections. I must over-ride this temptation and let his arguments air. I like the Trojan horse tactic.

Demon Haunted World was among the books I showed him the other day - I'll revisit it in quieter moments with him and hopefully he can get something out of the "Dragon-in-the-Garage" scenario.

I think that by far your best point, and one I have found is particularly true, is that I can really be but a small part in a long-term project and must simply supply some pointed ideas that plant a seed to be recollected later (and hopefully help to dismantle the scaffold of irrationality).

Cheers, Matt

8. There Go The Dinosaurs

Comment #73717 by MattInOz on September 26, 2007 at 12:42 am

Crazymalc,

Wasn't that doco scary!!! Saw that - almost as bad as that Jesus Camp (I think it was called). That poor little guy that was getting "home-schooled"... Shudders.

M

9. There Go The Dinosaurs

Comment #73716 by MattInOz on September 26, 2007 at 12:38 am

Veronique,

Cheers for your thoughts - have read/watched the stuff you speak of several times and would have to agree with you. I was watching the A. McGrath one with my brother one night and we just looked at each other incredulously. Like you say, it is obvious to any rational person watching just exactly what astonishing intellectual acrobatics are taking place during such discussions.

I guess I remain stunned to have met these ideas being defended in flesh and blood for the first time, esp here in "who-gives-a-shit" Oz. (my own indoctrination with the Catholic nonsense slid fairly easily away - I did make a great altar boy though)

Anyway, I'm off to write the next email refuting the chronology of his Flood geology. Wish me luck.

M

PS - don't you love how they lay the responsibility for the downfall of MANkind at the feet of a weak WOMAN. Tells me all I need to know about creation myth. (Those damned temptresses - their seductive fruits in evil conspiracy with their sensuous curves....)

10. There Go The Dinosaurs

Comment #73701 by MattInOz on September 25, 2007 at 11:14 pm

RobertMaynard,

Again, to you this time, thanks for your input. I had to laugh at the appropriateness of "evangelical amnesia".....

It is not of dire concern to me, this debate, as I know we both respect the other and this won't change anything. (this person is not a close friend as I only ran into him for the first time since university, 8 years ago, the other day) When the arguments he presented so stunned me, I calmly walked into my room and handed him a copy of a book on Quarternary dating techniques. I found his response of not even bothering to open it quite instructive. I showed him other books he might find useful in getting to the truth (not just the usual suspects, which were there) but others on science in general as well as the quirkiness of some of it's past proponents. I suggested also The Demon Haunted World as an excellent catch-all, along with some historical narratives but alas...

I am amply versed in physics, geology, astronomy, genetics etc and both he and I did an Applied Science course together that was health related so there is no deficiency of scientific literacy on either side of the fence.

I see the whole debate as a constructive challenge, but what I find difficult in this particular case is that I can't use that common base to argue from. Arguments with people who are LESS informed on their science are typically more successful as they at least seem to acknowledge some level of authority within its method. I truly am having trouble working out his thought processes. I guess, not living in the USA, I'm not used to such in-your-face contradiction.

Thanks for the advice, if you think of anything else, let me know.

11. There Go The Dinosaurs

Comment #73689 by MattInOz on September 25, 2007 at 9:08 pm

Crazymalc,

Thanks for your comments, I appreciate the input. I get a sense that you actually understand the depth to which I dispair at getting anywhere in the looming argument.

I have read Breaking the Spell as well as Darwin's Dangerous Idea and hosts of others that I use as reference sources and (at least I think) I understand in a more than vague way where it all comes from. However:

In a debate like this, I find myself for the first time actually speechless, as if I have had any "platform of common ground" ,if you will removed from the arena of discourse and am left floundering as to what terms I could possibly couch ideas within such that they breach his filters of indoctrination. (he does claim to have had a period of atheism around our graduation) I have tried taking it right back to basics to talk about where we get confirmation of our ideas from and how we unthinkingly use evidence and science whenever we need conflict resolution (for goodness sakes, we both use this in our jobs EVERY day) I guess I'm at a loss as to how one can temporarily suspend all this when required.... I agree that writing him off as stupid is both unfair and lazy ,and gets one nowhere. I just don't know how to get around it and am surprised how difficult it really is when faced with someone of some intellect that is convinced the "wisdom of the day" is a carefully crafted conspiracy to hide the truth of biblical literacy.

Shrug. Where to...?

12. There Go The Dinosaurs

Comment #73669 by MattInOz on September 25, 2007 at 7:28 pm

OK, I know the larger portion of the world's Christian population have long since abandoned such blatantly childish notions (only to replace them with more nuanced childish notions, mind you) but please, how does one talk to people like this?

I ran into a old friend from uni the other day (our degree was in Applied Science) and was jaw-droppingly astounded to find him spouting some of this nonsense in response to some passing comment of mine that mentioned "evolving". I stopped, checked I understood him correctly and then entered into a protracted and heated debate about these polar opposite world views. This has evolved into an email debate, but I must admit I am at a loss as to how to come at this one.

In all seriousness (I am not going to just write him off as stupid - I have seen plenty of evidence to the contrary in times past) does anyone have any hints as to the best way to gently, gently convince him otherwise? He is quite welcoming in debate, but I literally don't know how to begin. I thought this only happened in America....

I thought it instructive that he appeared to be in denial re global warming too.

Help.

13. The Flea Circus Invites a Newcomer!

Comment #60435 by MattInOz on August 2, 2007 at 12:08 am

And what of this "Robertson" - David?
Whose outlook be Jesusly flavoured
What a mighty great tome
Hath flown from his dome
Leaving godless' convictions all wavered...

14. The hitch in Hitchens' thinking

Comment #58702 by MattInOz on July 25, 2007 at 10:01 pm

"unencumbered by serious theological or biblical knowledge"

Yah! He also fails to take into consideration the momentous and categorically definitive musings of the late, great [insert choice here] whose Xth century BC ponderings have long since been recognised for their surprisingly nuanced commentary on contempory...... whatever!!

Hell, why can't these people just turn around, look in the mirror and see what vacuous nonsense is eminating from their own mouths and being passed off as relevent discourse.

Since when has ANYONE as widely and intelligently read as Hitchens et al "refused to concede.... that we are all driven and profoundly affected by an array of.... forces such as beauty, grief, love, the yearning for meaning, alienation and the specter of our own mortality."

On the contrary, they, esp Dawkins, Dennett and countless other evolutionary and cognitive scientists and thinkers thrive on an honest search for the answers to these questions.

In typically lazy fashion, only those of a religious bent could possibly claim ownership of the truth in these matters, in stunning juxtaposition with the utter absence of any real hard work. The arrogance of it all....!!! Then again, being raised in a blissfull, "evidence optional" environment will undoubtedly breed such flipancy,