1. Even non-believers must recognise the moral necessity of Christianity

Comment #30723 by shetlandforpeace on April 9, 2007 at 2:06 pm

#30659 Logicel: your comments regarding nationalism are bang on. I was wondering when I would see someone on this site making the connection and I'm delighted you've done so.

Listen, everybody; we're all in this world together. Where I or you was born is entirely accidental. My parents' beliefs and my childhood culture were out of my control, just as it is for everybody else. It so happens I was born 'Scottish' but this fact is becoming increasingly irrelevant in our globalalised world.

Anyone with a brain in their head can see that corporations don't care about nations. Ford, Texaco et al were just as happy to supply the Nazis as the UK and US in WWII. Do you seriously think that Gap or Marks & Spencers give a damn about American or British workers?

What are these tennis fans trying to achieve with their flags? Sentimental tosh. Nationalism will one day go the same way as religion. The age of rationalism, not nationalism, is nigh!

2. Even non-believers must recognise the moral necessity of Christianity

Comment #30716 by shetlandforpeace on April 9, 2007 at 1:40 pm

What a pathetic argument Bruce Anderson makes in this article. It's rambling and pointless.

There's no logic in this and it's not worth taking seriously, like most of the other tosh 'Brute' writes.

Very entertaining comments though!

3. Richard Dawkins: Author of the Year!

Comment #28817 by shetlandforpeace on March 31, 2007 at 4:20 am

Thanks for posting the video now. Thank goodness it's just the bit with the award in it, though, eh?

Congratulations Prof. Dawkins for getting the science message out to the mainstream. Richard and Judy - this is where it's at.

4. The Fifth Flea!

Comment #28813 by shetlandforpeace on March 31, 2007 at 3:44 am

Hi 2btrue - good to hear from you again.

Glemnorangie is it? Not a bad drink. I don't drink much but when I do, Macallan is my choice, with Highland Park (made in Orkney) a close second.

I hope you're feeling better than me; I'm feeling really grotty now with a heavy cold coming on.

You've made some good points. It's a sad world we've inherited. Here we are in 2007, more globalised by the day, and benefitting at every conceivable level by what science (and the drive for profit) can do. And yet... it would appear that many of us are too afraid or unimaginative to appreciate the bigger picture.

Like you I fear for us all.

5. The Fifth Flea!

Comment #28811 by shetlandforpeace on March 31, 2007 at 3:28 am

Comment #28796 Wee Flea.

We're going round in circles here. It's easy to sidestep the questions. We each think the other's mind is 'closed' to our version of truth and logic.

I'm tired and have a cold coming on, and all I can think to say is how sad it is that you choose to be satisfied by your beliefs. I can only respectfully ask you to try to think again. For all I know, it may be difficult for you in your position, but think of the rewards to all humanity. (I'm sorry that you can't see how passionate I'm pleading here.) Life, and that means all the people we see around us, is far too precious for us to choose to live in a cocoon of lies. Your ultimate responsibility is to choose to take and interpet the facts as they really are - not to fit them to your construct. If you do not or cannot do this I will respect you, but in the meantime, I would like to say that I personally know no-one who has commented on this web site and I could never presume what their views on morality, or whatever, are. I know my views are no better or worse than anybody elses, and if that's the only 'insight' atheism has given me, then that's worth it.

6. 'The Evolution of Homer' Intro

Comment #28805 by shetlandforpeace on March 31, 2007 at 3:01 am

Hey Wice! You're a star.

I'm going to start dropping in 'the word' wherever I can now.

A happy man! ;-)

7. 'The Evolution of Homer' Intro

Comment #28767 by shetlandforpeace on March 30, 2007 at 5:07 pm

Hi Shuggy.

You should try living in Shetland. We'll have 24-hour daylight in about 6 weeks' time.

There's a creationist joke in there somewhere but I can't think of it at this time of night.

;)

8. The Fifth Flea!

Comment #28766 by shetlandforpeace on March 30, 2007 at 5:03 pm

Wee Flea, can I respectfully ask that you answer the following couple of questions that have been nagging me since reading your 10 points:

Do you think that people with religious (or non-religious) beliefs different from yours have a sense of morals that is:
a) better than yours?
b) not as good as yours?
c) not better or worse, just different?
d) something else?

Do you think that evil can be defined? If so, what is it? Do you think that atheists are more likely to think:
a) there's no such thing as evil
b) evil exists, but it cannot be defined
c) evil exists, it can be defined, but the definition is likely to differ from yours
d) evil exists, and there's a definition that can be universally agreed?

Many thanks.

9. The Fifth Flea!

Comment #28760 by shetlandforpeace on March 30, 2007 at 4:46 pm

Hi kkant. Never mind about 600 BC, this is 2007 for Pete's sake and these guys STILL believe in fairies. Good grief. I'm really annoyed with all this 'moral code' crap they're spouting.

I guess if you're like me then you're a rational person who is open to a well-argued debate.

These books are just not it. These guys just don't do 'reason' and 'logic.'

Are they ever going to get serious?

10. 'The Evolution of Homer' Intro

Comment #28754 by shetlandforpeace on March 30, 2007 at 4:11 pm

I also love Lisa's aspirations towards a world based on logic. Why do we have a 24-hour day? Who says a week has 7 days?

But you must admit, South Park, Family Guy and American Dad are better.

11. 'The Evolution of Homer' Intro

Comment #28749 by shetlandforpeace on March 30, 2007 at 3:39 pm

Yorker, no, Krusty's great!

Favourite quote (from memory); "Jimi Hendrix said he plotzed on it. His actual words."

Not being Jewish/Yiddish/New Yorker/American I don't know what the word means, or even if I've got the right word. But I laughed really loud at the thought of a Jewish Jimi.

12. The Fifth Flea!

Comment #28747 by shetlandforpeace on March 30, 2007 at 3:28 pm

Hold on Wee Free, I've just read
http://www.freechurch.org/issues/2007/febb07.htm .

You list '10 things that you know' that leads you to being a Christian. Here's my comments - please feel free to come back at me.

'Creation': isn't the universe absolutely, stunningly beautiful? It's irrational to jump from that understandable sense of wonder to concluding, therefore, that science is the observation of what God has done.

'The human mind and spirit.' I've been entertained for years by philosophers trying to get to grips with the meaning of life, consciousness etc. No-one has the complete answer and nor do you or I.

'Morals.' How can you possibly judge that I do not have as much a sense of what is 'good' and 'bad' as you or anyone else, just because I say I'm an atheist?

'Evil.' No, I don't pretend to have found the answer to this subject either. I can only consider the historical examples of what people of faith have actually done in the name of their deity and conclude that Christians, Moslems etc. have no right to claim any kind of special insight.

'Religion.' Your description of humanity's aspiration towards an ideal, perfect religion reminds me of the ancient Greeks with their ideas of a 'perfect' place that we can only attempt to strive for. And the point... ?

'Experience.' Everyone has this. I cannot conclude that my experience has given me any special insight, and I fail to see why yours is any more insightful than mine.

'History', to me, is best understood in terms of how powerful people became (and become) powerful, and how they tried (and try) to hold on to that power. Look, you can read history in countless ways; what makes you so sure that you're more right than anyone else?

'The Church.' I, too, have been preached at by stupid and mean people. I also have very good friends who I think the world of. You find it inexplicable that some good events / activities have occurred in church, except in terms of vindication of God's presence. You must admit that that indicates nothing of the kind. There's plenty of people in the world who are good and kind – and who don't believe.

'The Bible.' You find solace and excitement in the Bible – great! Others have their hobbies, too. I always used to say to people, "I have a problem. I pick up my guitar and play for a few hours. When I put it down, I have no problems." Is this not a similar effect?

'Jesus.' Your Biblical quotes and gushing description cut no ice I'm afraid. I'm not an authority on the New Testament, unless you can give this term to a childhood of exposure to it. My way of thinking about Jesus is this: if he was (is) such a good example to Christians, why don't they do the type of things he did? I don't see much in the press about Christians offering their lives for peace. I've never heard of churchgoers giving all their worldly possessions to the poor. If I WAS a Christian, I'd tear down the churches and distribute everything to all the people I personally know who are good but poor.

What you've written is not convincing.

13. The Fifth Flea!

Comment #28729 by shetlandforpeace on March 30, 2007 at 2:23 pm

Wee Flea, where would you recommend an open-minded, rational person look for a good source on your beliefs? (Internet, if possible, please!)

I for one am happy for you to convince me.

14. The Fifth Flea!

Comment #28727 by shetlandforpeace on March 30, 2007 at 2:13 pm

Absolutely, sane1 #28724. No book needed. I'm at least as 'moral' as any Christian I've ever met.

Speaking to some Christians yesterday I was surprised when they said they didn't believe a word of the Bible either! They just enjoy (some of) the social interaction in their church. I said that I was interested to find out if they thought 'real' Christians were 'good' people. The answer? "Damnit, they're no better than you or me!" Now that's my kind of churchgoer!

15. The Fifth Flea!

Comment #28721 by shetlandforpeace on March 30, 2007 at 1:51 pm

Oh come on Wee Flea! Whatever it is that religion 'gives' people, scientific truth and a moral framework is not it!

16. The Fifth Flea!

Comment #28718 by shetlandforpeace on March 30, 2007 at 1:31 pm

Hello 2btrue.

It's fascinating to read the comments of believers. How they try to justify their irrational belief in a supernatural being is entertainment indeed.

17. 'The Evolution of Homer' Intro

Comment #28696 by shetlandforpeace on March 30, 2007 at 12:18 pm

Doh, I know the feeling.

Marvelous stuff - love The Simpsons.

18. The Fifth Flea!

Comment #28299 by shetlandforpeace on March 28, 2007 at 4:46 pm

I'm sorry I have to go to sleep now cheshirecat but hopefully someone will continue the thread.

I can see your point about making atheism positive rather than negative. I wonder what the relative proportions of abusive, foul-mouthed emails are? I guess I would be offended if I read such a thing from an atheist 'arguing his case' but I don't think it would change my view of my own beliefs. Reading some of the 'ugly' comments just makes me think "how typically irrational of a believer; see where it leads?" - it doesn't affect my personal thinking.

19. The Fifth Flea!

Comment #28291 by shetlandforpeace on March 28, 2007 at 3:57 pm

Cheshirecat I always enjoy reading your comments. Do you think that RD's tactic in 'disrespecting' religion is not the most effective then? Is irritation a good enough reason to write a book or is that not counter-productive?

20. The Fifth Flea!

Comment #28289 by shetlandforpeace on March 28, 2007 at 3:52 pm

I mean to say that what the world needs now more than ever is disrespect for irrational beliefs. Let all right-minded people see this mind-set for what it is; the ultimate danger to our planet.

21. The Fifth Flea!

Comment #28282 by shetlandforpeace on March 28, 2007 at 3:48 pm

No, RD hasn't created a whole new genre, he just seems to have rattled a few cages.

Scottishgeologist, many thanks for the link to that great article. I think you hit the nail on the head; it's the disrespect that does it. That, if anything, is what seems to be provoking these responses.

Christians, please understand that atheists are rational people. Your arguments fail to convince us on a rational level. It would be interesting to hear from someone out there who would like to commend these books as reasoned responses to TGD and explain, in plain language, just what it is that we're missing.

22. Hell is real and eternal: Pope

Comment #27992 by shetlandforpeace on March 27, 2007 at 2:17 pm

I'm with you on this one USA Limey.

The more that 'authority' figures spout this stuff, the deeper the hole they're digging.

It's the 'moderates' - those who are more open to reason - that will hear this and think again about the 'cultural value' of their monolith.

23. Neil Peart cites The God Delusion in new album's liner notes

Comment #27977 by shetlandforpeace on March 27, 2007 at 1:27 pm

Love their early stuff. It's hard to believe that such beautiful, delicate/brutal music is produced by only three people.

A bit dubious about the Ayn Rand references though.

I think the essential album is 'Moving Pictures.' It seems to nag away at you over the years.

24. Religion

Comment #26973 by shetlandforpeace on March 22, 2007 at 5:13 pm

Cheers Yorker, when I get the time I'll look further into George. Hopefully he's got a web site.

I've never really got into Connolly. I think his material isn't as meaningful. Sure, he's got an amusing way of telling stories, but George's stuff seems to be cutting edge. He certainly expresses MY frustration.

25. Religion

Comment #26971 by shetlandforpeace on March 22, 2007 at 5:04 pm

Just seen the Ten Commandments one - even better than the religion one! I love the sarcastic tone of this type of stuff. Why do believers deserve any respect? What makes them so special, at least in their own eyes?

26. Religion

Comment #26968 by shetlandforpeace on March 22, 2007 at 4:54 pm

This is great. Loved the bit about praying to Joe Pesci. I watched the last part of that Channel 4 programme on 'greatest stand-ups' with Billy Connolly at #1 - this guy wipes the floor with him.

Can someone help me out, though - I take it George Carlin is American but I've never heard of him. What's his story?

27. Christian soldier takes up arms as hustings near

Comment #26740 by shetlandforpeace on March 21, 2007 at 12:49 pm

Hi Philip1978, thanks for the comment. Aren't some national anthems brilliant? Here's my rugby six nations order of preference:
1) France. Stirring. I love the bloodcurdling bits about defending against those who would invade and slit the throats of our people.
2) Wales. That paean to 'our land' makes me long to have a little bit of Welsh blood in me (alas).
3) Ireland. I mean the actual Irish anthem, not really the rugby song which sounds kind of false in comparison.
4) Scotland. On the right occasion, sung properly, it can be quite moving, but it's about time someone came up with a more uplifting tune. I'm not in favour of the nationalist lyrics.
5) Italy. Cheerful-sounding tune that seems to completely change half way through for some reason. I'm afraid I know nothing about the words.
6) England. God Save The Queen is a dirge to my ears, and the words make me cringe to think that anyone would want to be subservient to deities AND monarchs.

Bring on Eurovision!

28. The Fourth Flea!

Comment #26611 by shetlandforpeace on March 20, 2007 at 5:21 pm

Thanks, Fishpeddler, you said it far better than I did.

29. The Fourth Flea!

Comment #26610 by shetlandforpeace on March 20, 2007 at 5:17 pm

Hello iwentdowntotheriver. You're absolutely correct about how people shouldn't comment on things they haven't read, but I think you're being a bit hard.

One doesn't have to necessarily read a book to understand what an author's point is. I've just read a book about Isaac Newton's work, which I suspect would be easier for me to read than the original.

Caesar Best says "I'm pretty sure he hasn't written anything we haven't all heard before," and one can appreciate his feeling of frustration. We can only hope that maybe this time Cornwell has written something truly original, logical and well-argued.

30. The Fourth Flea!

Comment #26598 by shetlandforpeace on March 20, 2007 at 4:55 pm

How come it says 'September 2007' on the top right hand side? That's a wee while off yet, is it not?

31. Christian soldier takes up arms as hustings near

Comment #26596 by shetlandforpeace on March 20, 2007 at 4:50 pm

I agree with your comments about the Scottish elections being interesting this time, scottishgeologist. For the first time in my life since old enough to vote, I'm seriously considering a protest this time. Green or SNP? I can see the SNP doing well this time. I know a vote for the Greens is the right thing to do but it's just so tempting to see Tony getting a bloody nose. Also, the SNP say they'll effectively prevent Trident being based in Scotland so I think it's them on balance. Definitely not LibDem - our MSP here is the Transport Minister in the Scottish Executive and he thinks he's got a job for life here.

It's natural to react with a sort of annoyed amusement at this 'news story'... just who does the Bish think he is; why should anyone care about his stupid opinion? If you're a thinker - and there are a few of us - it's just yet another nail in the Catholic coffin. (Most of the Catholics I know will just be embarassed.)

But I think I do care. When you consider the harm suffered by the West of Scotland in the name of religion over the years, you would think people in responsible positions would know better than to mouth off about politics. It's not the USA for goodness sake!

On a completely different note - I'm new to the site so apologies if this has been raised before - do English atheists wish to remove the references to God from their anthem? Is there a strong feeling about this?

32. 'God Is Not a Moderate'

Comment #26485 by shetlandforpeace on March 19, 2007 at 5:02 pm

Hello Andrew

I hope I haven't picked you up inappropriately over your comment "We are evolutionarily programmed for faith."

Is it not more likely that we are conditioned by our environment? As atheism becomes increasingly prevalent, is it not likely that more and more people will grow up with no religious inclination whatsoever?

From my experience I see no more evidence of people being "programmed" for faith than any other belief, for example nationalism; people aren't "born" nationalists, they become nationalists through their environment. "The pull of the irrational," as you term it, is perhaps understandable given the high prominence to the supernatural in our culture; surely this is what this website is helping to overcome?

I'm enjoying reading the conversation, by the way. Your views are appreciated!

33. Ricky Gervais on Atheism

Comment #26483 by shetlandforpeace on March 19, 2007 at 4:26 pm

On one level it's good to see Gervais taking the **** taken out of the Bible.

On the other hand, I'm not so sure that a really worthwhile point is being made. Take ANY book with unusual or striking language (including TGD) and read it out... word by word ... and you'll get a similar effect.

But I suppose on the whole I agree with you Roy H.

34. The History of Creationist Thought

Comment #26481 by shetlandforpeace on March 19, 2007 at 4:19 pm

It's surprisingly good for ITV.

I like the sarcastic tone. Those notorious sceptics - teenagers - will appreciate it.

35. Kissing Hank's Ass

Comment #26113 by shetlandforpeace on March 17, 2007 at 2:51 am

This is great! Succinct, entertaining and (sadly) relevant. In the right hands ridicule can be one of the most powerful weapons.

Young people in particular are going to get the message right away with this one and that's critical.

Congratulations to the makers. If I was Hank, I'd give you a million dollars to make more.

36. Free Speech

Comment #25912 by shetlandforpeace on March 15, 2007 at 4:01 pm

I have mixed feelings about this, I must say.

The argument for free speech is convincing, but there's something that disturbs me; having a free press is habitually stated as being a prerequisite of democracy, and yet the ownership of many of the most powerful media organisations is concentrated in the hands of just a few.

I guess it's something to do with some voices being louder than others - is that desirable?

37. God's dupes

Comment #25908 by shetlandforpeace on March 15, 2007 at 3:50 pm

How beautifully Sam Harris expresses himself. Why can't believers manage to convey what's so precious to them? I'm surely not the only one who would love to read a piece as well-reasoned as this, from a theist point-of-view. Does anyone have a reference for such an article?

38. Mrs Darwin's diaries go online

Comment #25481 by shetlandforpeace on March 13, 2007 at 3:28 pm

Hi Steve

You got me there! It was a pretty trivial observation. I like your final comment, but I'm only being playful, honestly!

Now, let me rearrange the letters in "steveroot"... :)

39. Mrs Darwin's diaries go online

Comment #25476 by shetlandforpeace on March 13, 2007 at 2:52 pm

Has anyone else noticed that if you rearrange the letters of "Emma, Charles Darwin" you get "heard calm, wiser man"?

Maybe significant, maybe not.

40. US Congressman Holds No God-Belief

Comment #25471 by shetlandforpeace on March 13, 2007 at 1:59 pm

At times it's startling how different attitudes are in the US from the UK. Having only recently become aware of the whole subject (my interest fired up thanks to reading Climbing Mount Improbable) it seems the most appropriate action for all concerned people is to express our support for Pete Stark. Can anyone suggest the best way of getting this the highest possible profile in the media?