451. Richard Dawkins interviews Father George Coyne

Comment #300927 by Laurie Fraser on December 12, 2008 at 10:37 pm

Comment #300922 by Frankus1122

Agree totally, Frankus. I was trying to point out that morality is an easily-seen evolving thing. In the case of memetic information, that evolution is a speeded-up process. This is not to contradict the idea that morality is an epi-phenomenon of genetically-evolving minds.

452. Richard Dawkins interviews Father George Coyne

Comment #300920 by Laurie Fraser on December 12, 2008 at 10:11 pm

Hi Craig - well, I didn't say the bible and Jesus were redundant - they're both part of a very rich tapestry of human development. I think, for instance, that the bible does much to outline the transition from barbarism to civilisation, and, as such, is an important social document. Likewise, what I will call the "myth" of Jesus to an extent humanises what was once a barbarous set of ancient laws concocted by extremely ignorant and aggressive people.

I agree with Frankus that morality is an evolving meme. We can see it in action. there are now, at least in the West, many fewer who are intolerant of homosexuality. That is morality evolved. We no longer (or, once again, many more of us no longer) see war as a "glorious" and "honourable" activity.

The point is that morality occurs despite religion. I would argue that religion is such an archaic practice that it impedes the development of morality.

453. Richard Dawkins interviews Father George Coyne

Comment #300914 by Laurie Fraser on December 12, 2008 at 9:50 pm

Hi Craig - I suppose you've honestly pointed out the major difference between theists and atheists. You accept that faith is enough; I don't. Your second point is more problematic. Why live as Jesus commanded? Why not as Socrates wished? Or Aristotle? Or Bob Dylan? I mean, what did Jesus (if he existed) have to say that any normal, rational, moral person couldn't come up with? I don't need Jesus to tell me that it's a good thing to look after my family, my community, and my world. As far as I'm concerned, these things are perfectly self-evident.

454. Vatican tightens in vitro opposition

Comment #300911 by Laurie Fraser on December 12, 2008 at 9:43 pm

And I'm all for getting those cats out of the Catican, Philster!

Edit: Mind you, I wouldn't mind souveniring some of those vats from the Vatican, either.

455. Richard Dawkins interviews Father George Coyne

Comment #300908 by Laurie Fraser on December 12, 2008 at 9:41 pm

And to you, Dr Hameer. Peace and goodwill to all :)

456. Richard Dawkins interviews Father George Coyne

Comment #300903 by Laurie Fraser on December 12, 2008 at 9:33 pm

OK, Mitch's friend. I suppose that the position of most atheists can be explained fairly simply. Most of us would agree that the notion of "proof" has a very serious and rigorous ring to it. We would ask that all claims about a "god" be accompanied by substantial evidence that could be assembled, at least, into a scientific theory, much along the lines of the theory of evolution, or the various theories of gravity, etc.

So, if you happen to "believe" that god exists, we would, naturally, ask you for evidence for that position. Unfortunately, "evidence" which includes appeals to authorities such as the bible or other scripture does not meet the formal requirements of scientific method.

An assertion as to the nature of your god's existence would have to be accompanied by both the empirical evidence of such a creature (and not just claims by those who had professed to encounter this being), plus a rigorous theory that satisfied any ontological investigation (i.e. from what substance is this god made, where does it hang out, how does it interact with the physical world, etc.) Only when all of these quite standard methodological criteria were met would we entertain your proposal seriously.

457. Richard Dawkins interviews Father George Coyne

Comment #300889 by Laurie Fraser on December 12, 2008 at 8:35 pm

Hi Decius - dark and cloudy, like my beer. (Actually, it's about 38 celcius and blowing a hot gale outside. I keep looking on the horizon for smoke) :(

458. Vatican tightens in vitro opposition

Comment #300886 by Laurie Fraser on December 12, 2008 at 8:32 pm

Well, I don't know about homos in the vestibule, Brian, but...

459. Richard Dawkins interviews Father George Coyne

Comment #300884 by Laurie Fraser on December 12, 2008 at 8:28 pm

Michael -

TONE IT DOWN, SON!

460. Vatican tightens in vitro opposition

Comment #300883 by Laurie Fraser on December 12, 2008 at 8:27 pm

they substitute for the conjugal act ... which alone is truly worthy of responsible procreation

461. Harun Yahya's Dark Arts

Comment #300880 by Laurie Fraser on December 12, 2008 at 8:24 pm

Mitch - whoa! Those moviestar looks will get you nowhere on this site. You should be wrinkly and balding to carry any weight around here. Or wrinkly and wild-haired. Just look at j.mills, above. (He's the one on the right). :)

462. Richard Dawkins interviews Father George Coyne

Comment #300877 by Laurie Fraser on December 12, 2008 at 8:16 pm

I'm sure that Coyne is convinced of his own reasonableness in this interview, and it was not a debate as much as Richard's attempt to get to the heart of why and how a scientist can maintain such a dull and irrational faith. I had called earlier for Richard to tear into Coyne, but now I'm not sure. Sometimes these people just need enough licence to hang themselves, which Coyne quite successfully did.

Edited for grammar.

463. Hitchens Debates Rabbi Wolpe on God

Comment #300141 by Laurie Fraser on December 11, 2008 at 4:29 am

Comment #300138 by Quetzalcoatl

Double plus ungood!

464. Richard Dawkins interviews Father George Coyne

Comment #300139 by Laurie Fraser on December 11, 2008 at 4:27 am

Comment #300124 by Steve Zara

Bloody hell, Steve - you're right again! I suppose I am just somewhat alarmed at the the way Coyne and other moderates will provide a buffer, a comfort, for the faltering. "Oh, it's OK, he believes in evolution, he's not a wacko fundie, it's safe to go back to church", etc. Get my drift?

465. Richard Dawkins interviews Father George Coyne

Comment #300118 by Laurie Fraser on December 11, 2008 at 3:18 am

Sorry to come over all contrary, but Coyne, for all his reasonableness, is still a poor, deluded old man. What a load of tosh he spouts. Richard should have bored it right up him. "Moderate" christians are about as respectable as "moderate" muslims - they're all about hiding the gross stupidity of their putrescent psychoses behind agreeable small-talk.

466. Hitchens Debates Rabbi Wolpe on God

Comment #300095 by Laurie Fraser on December 11, 2008 at 2:03 am

Having gender related pronouns blows while on the intertubes

Easy fixed, Mitchell - I've come to believe that DG is a creationist bot, programmed to repeat extremely silly mystic nonsense. Ergo, "it" should be a sufficient pronoun.

467. Hitchens Debates Rabbi Wolpe on God

Comment #299979 by Laurie Fraser on December 10, 2008 at 5:52 pm

I was in Syria just after the war of 1973, and was then not allowed into Israel because of the Syrian visa on my passport. Must have been the moral turpitude.

468. Hitchens Debates Rabbi Wolpe on God

Comment #299970 by Laurie Fraser on December 10, 2008 at 5:33 pm

Brian - I believe another, lesser philosopher called Socrates was impugned as such. Well, if it's good enough for him, it's good enough for me!

469. Hitchens Debates Rabbi Wolpe on God

Comment #299967 by Laurie Fraser on December 10, 2008 at 5:30 pm

Gives new meaning to the expression "Home of the brave, land of the free", Titania. Such a shame - a beautiful country, with wonderful people, hamstrung by such a profound, bureaucratic insularism.

470. Hitchens Debates Rabbi Wolpe on God

Comment #299962 by Laurie Fraser on December 10, 2008 at 5:18 pm

Sheesh, Titania, your country is fairly high up on the paranoia stakes if it thinks an old grandfather who experimented with acid once or twice nearly forty years ago is some kind of threat to Homeland Security!

471. Hitchens Debates Rabbi Wolpe on God

Comment #299928 by Laurie Fraser on December 10, 2008 at 3:44 pm

Winding up for the xmas break, Brian. Just got to go down to the college now and sort out a few things, tidy my desk, then it's holidays for 8 weeks. BTW, wife and I might be down your way in January - I'm taking her on a trip to see the Great Ocean Road. We might catch up, hey?

472. Hitchens Debates Rabbi Wolpe on God

Comment #299924 by Laurie Fraser on December 10, 2008 at 3:41 pm

Have a good one, Goldy! I'm off, too. Gotta go and put my glorious marks into *drum roll* THE SYSTEM!

473. Hitchens Debates Rabbi Wolpe on God

Comment #299920 by Laurie Fraser on December 10, 2008 at 3:38 pm

Laurie, is that a stoner joke?

474. Hitchens Debates Rabbi Wolpe on God

Comment #299918 by Laurie Fraser on December 10, 2008 at 3:36 pm

Is social conformity a function of population density? Just thought I'd put that one out.

475. Hitchens Debates Rabbi Wolpe on God

Comment #299914 by Laurie Fraser on December 10, 2008 at 3:34 pm

A slug goes into the police station. "I've just been mugged by three snails," he complains. "Oh, too bad,", says the copper. "Can you give me a description of them?" "Well, not really; the whole thing happened so FAST!"

476. Hitchens Debates Rabbi Wolpe on God

Comment #299909 by Laurie Fraser on December 10, 2008 at 3:30 pm

JAMCAM - Oh, ours was the generation that took the drug thing on with alacrity. It was, largely, a response to the icy conservatism of our parents' generation. We were gonna be FREE - so we dropped acid and smoked joints and talked about the barbarity of war and capitalism.

....Nothing's changed :)

477. On Human Rights Day, the Center for Inquiry Works to Uphold the Universality of Rights.

Comment #299904 by Laurie Fraser on December 10, 2008 at 3:27 pm

God save us from priests, Daniella - especially Frank Brennan, a sanctimonious git. Keating was dead right about him. Why can't we have someone like Peter Singer work up a Bill of Rights?

478. Hitchens Debates Rabbi Wolpe on God

Comment #299898 by Laurie Fraser on December 10, 2008 at 3:23 pm

Nite Quetz.

Brian, back in about 1970, acid was the rage. I knew plenty of people who gobbled it like candy. Most of them went on to have perfectly normal lives. A few ended up tragically fucked-up. I think the same thing is happening now with that putrid hydro-weed kids are smoking. Dangerous stuff.

479. Hitchens Debates Rabbi Wolpe on God

Comment #299890 by Laurie Fraser on December 10, 2008 at 3:18 pm

Wimps, the lot of you - especially you, English. :) I've only ever tried cannabis, LSD and alcohol. Acid is, er, interesting, to say the least, but I would never recommend it to anyone. You tend to put all your cards on the table when you take that stuff. These days, I prefer my drugs cold and wet.

Brian - can you get me one of those tin-foil hats?

480. Hitchens Debates Rabbi Wolpe on God

Comment #299877 by Laurie Fraser on December 10, 2008 at 3:09 pm

I was just joking, Decius. I had a dabble with acid about 35 years ago. Definitely NOT the drug to write philosophy essays by!

481. Hitchens Debates Rabbi Wolpe on God

Comment #299860 by Laurie Fraser on December 10, 2008 at 2:49 pm

Old hippy remedy for when those uni essays were due the next morning, Quetz. Works a treat. Hmmm... come to think of it, no wonder I failed two years in a row!

482. Hitchens Debates Rabbi Wolpe on God

Comment #299858 by Laurie Fraser on December 10, 2008 at 2:46 pm

Drop some acid, Quetz - that'll keep you awake!

483. Hitchens Debates Rabbi Wolpe on God

Comment #299855 by Laurie Fraser on December 10, 2008 at 2:42 pm

Guys - off topic, but I've been talking to twp, and we've decided on a meet-up (on a disused thread) on Saturday (Aus/NZ time). 3pm eastern Australia, 6pm NZ, 10pm central U.S. (Friday), and um, what will that be in U.K.? Wee hours of the morning? Hope we can all meet up for pre-xmas drinks!

Brian - great quotes. Now, shut up! :)

484. Hitchens Debates Rabbi Wolpe on God

Comment #299850 by Laurie Fraser on December 10, 2008 at 2:38 pm

Very good, 2.

Brian - religoids use analogies like they're going out of style. Always have. Trouble is, they use them as proof. What was Paley's watch in the sand if not just a gigantic, overblown analogy which was somehow transmogrified into a "proof", by design, of the existence of god? This is what the IDers just don't get. They are forever hoisting themselves on the petard of a fraud.

485. Hitchens Debates Rabbi Wolpe on God

Comment #299840 by Laurie Fraser on December 10, 2008 at 2:27 pm

The river analogy is a good one, I think, without demonstrating the real force of the notion of identity, which, after all, is what we're talking about. The brain changes, of course; new "circuits", for want of a better word, are constantly being soldered on. These changes to brain physiology are reflected at both behavioural and conscious levels. But these changes are readily accommodated within a gestalt which appears to consciousness as an underlying whole. How could it be otherwise? Well, to see what happens in the case of someone who can't remember what happened two seconds ago, read Oliver Sacks' Musicophilia, and you'll never worry about the loss of your identity again. (Unless, of course, you get the same disease, in which case you won't even be aware of your disease, because you won't be aware of a "me" who has the disease.)

486. Hitchens Debates Rabbi Wolpe on God

Comment #299832 by Laurie Fraser on December 10, 2008 at 2:17 pm

2 - he didn't; he simply multiplied it by 6, for perfection's sake!

BTW - how are you and all yours after Mumbai? Hope everything's OK.

487. Richard Dawkins interviews Father George Coyne

Comment #299820 by Laurie Fraser on December 10, 2008 at 1:47 pm

Goldy - dead right, again. The only reason I could see, as a young bloke, for getting a tarot reading off a young lass was that it might lead to a deeper, more penetrating relationship later on.

488. Hitchens Debates Rabbi Wolpe on God

Comment #299607 by Laurie Fraser on December 10, 2008 at 4:09 am

Quetz - brilliant. Man, you're a fine thinker!

489. Hitchens Debates Rabbi Wolpe on God

Comment #299597 by Laurie Fraser on December 10, 2008 at 3:50 am

Not going to happen, Philip - you know what god's like - he enjoys his sadism way too much to be honest with us.

490. Hitchens Debates Rabbi Wolpe on God

Comment #299595 by Laurie Fraser on December 10, 2008 at 3:46 am

Vaal - I'm sure we should ask Tyler about an invite for DG!

Impending Aussie summer is here already. Several days of 35 - beautiful!

491. Richard Dawkins interviews Father George Coyne

Comment #299593 by Laurie Fraser on December 10, 2008 at 3:44 am

Sick! But good :)
Everything's good with me, mate. Little Tia is my joy.

What city are you in now?

492. Hitchens Debates Rabbi Wolpe on God

Comment #299587 by Laurie Fraser on December 10, 2008 at 3:32 am

Hey Vaal - rain and balmy temperatures. Absolutely beautiful! I was talking to Sharon earlier - it was -17 celcius at her place. All I had to say about that was "SOD THAT FOR A LARK"

493. Hitchens Debates Rabbi Wolpe on God

Comment #299586 by Laurie Fraser on December 10, 2008 at 3:29 am

Ah, Quetz - I just remember very cool conversations where we would discuss matters of interest without the ridiculous intrusions of god-bothering dumbos like Dianelos. You know - music, cricket, all those good things? Posted by the metronomic fore-tense antipodean.

494. Richard Dawkins interviews Father George Coyne

Comment #299582 by Laurie Fraser on December 10, 2008 at 3:22 am

Hey, Dhamma - long time. Everything OK with you?

495. Hitchens Debates Rabbi Wolpe on God

Comment #299581 by Laurie Fraser on December 10, 2008 at 3:20 am

Aarrrgh! I'm getting really pissed off by coming onto this site and having to read through the loads of tripe that the DGs of this world spew out. Please - can we have some serious discussions again? Let's just forget about Dianelos and his/her ridiculous ideas.

496. Hitchens Debates Rabbi Wolpe on God

Comment #299558 by Laurie Fraser on December 10, 2008 at 2:10 am

The soul who pointed out the world's dark ways,
To all who listen, its deceits unfolding.
Beneath in Cieldauro lies the frame
Whence it was driven; from woe and exile to
This fair abode of peace and bliss it came.

I think Dante had Dianelos summed up, Carto - even if he was talking about Boethius at the time.

497. Hitchens Debates Rabbi Wolpe on God

Comment #299554 by Laurie Fraser on December 10, 2008 at 2:02 am

Carto - you impugn Boethius.

498. Richard Dawkins interviews Father George Coyne

Comment #299474 by Laurie Fraser on December 9, 2008 at 8:25 pm

How could anyone have respect for a dullard like Chopra?

499. Hitchens Debates Rabbi Wolpe on God

Comment #299369 by Laurie Fraser on December 9, 2008 at 1:34 pm

Well, off to college to announce the results and demand a pay rise. Toodle-pip, chaps; I'll catch up with everyone tomorrow, when I'll (finally) be on holidays! Yippee.

500. Hitchens Debates Rabbi Wolpe on God

Comment #299361 by Laurie Fraser on December 9, 2008 at 1:26 pm

Comment #299359 by Goldy

No. I AM GOD!