451. Richard Dawkins and Bill Maher

Comment #159385 by Peacebeuponme on April 12, 2008 at 4:21 am

Matt7895

This is what he said:

In my case I can see, albeit dimly, that my daughter's rape was an opportunity for me to try to learn the true meaning of forgiveness in a terribly wrenching circumstance. Perhaps this was also an opportunity for me to recognize that I could not truly protect my daughters from all pain and suffering; I had to learn to entrust them to God's loving care, knowing that this provided not an immunization from evil, but a reassurance that their suffering would not be in vain. Indeed, my daughter would say that this experience provided her with the opportunity to counsel and comfort others who have gone through the same kind of assault.

452. The List: The World's Worst Religious Leaders

Comment #159383 by Peacebeuponme on April 12, 2008 at 4:03 am

Steve

I feel a bit uncomfortable too, but I also feel we should not allow what we do or say to be restricted by theists.

Agreed. But we can restrict ourselves if we think it will help matters.

453. The List: The World's Worst Religious Leaders

Comment #159382 by Peacebeuponme on April 12, 2008 at 4:01 am

Steve

If Richard posted here that he had managed to arrange some kind of campaign, and it would be good if as many people as possible turned up at a certain venue, that would be leadership in my view.

Certainly that kind of action would be classed as evidence of 'leadership', and assist with progression, where I work!

You wouldn't have to call him an atheist leader though would you? If he started the campaign X, he would just be "Leader of the X movement". This would distinguish atheist followers of X from atheists who do not follow X.

454. The List: The World's Worst Religious Leaders

Comment #159372 by Peacebeuponme on April 12, 2008 at 3:31 am

Epeeist

If there was some kind of atheist organisation it would be more like a political party.

Well, we have the National Secular Society.

Reading Steve's post and thinking about it a bit more, I'm starting to come round to his view, but its all about context. A leader in that sense would not be the same as a muslim leader, for example, who can issue a fatwa. I just feel uncomfortable with the phrase like "atheist leader", especially with all the theists who come on here and talk about "your prophet Dawkins".

455. The List: The World's Worst Religious Leaders

Comment #159368 by Peacebeuponme on April 12, 2008 at 3:20 am

Steve

You don't need a belief system for a leader. Just a point of view, and the wish to have someone else help represent that point of view, or campaign to have that point of view respected.

Yes, but I don't see that as being the same as the context in which we use "religious leader".

If some atheists are campaigning for anything as a group, it would be an end to religious special treatment and influence politically and socially. That is wider than what it means to be an atheist. Religious people can be secular. So I would not want to call anybody who campaigns on my behalf on that front an "atheist leader".

456. The List: The World's Worst Religious Leaders

Comment #159366 by Peacebeuponme on April 12, 2008 at 3:03 am

Steve

Sorry to be provocative, but why not?

By "relgious leader" we mean people like the Pope or Rabbis, Bishops and Imams. They speak on behalf of their religous community and in accordance with whichever religious text they subscribe to. I can't see that there can be an atheist equivalent.

Richard may speak about atheism, but he is in no way a leader of atheists. Can you think of anybody who could possily be called that? By what process would they be appointed, and what values would they promote?

I think the minute there is an "atheist leader" we lose the argument that atheism is not a belief system.

457. Richard Dawkins and Bill Maher

Comment #159362 by Peacebeuponme on April 12, 2008 at 2:53 am

Stephen Maxwell

Like I said, Bill mentioned speaking to Richard 'today' so they clearly switched to a recording of the interview from earlier on.

They could have been laughing at the tape, but I take your point. I don't watch the show often.

458. The List: The World's Worst Religious Leaders

Comment #159360 by Peacebeuponme on April 12, 2008 at 2:49 am

Raiko

Out of curiosity, who's the worst atheist leader we know?

That was tongue in cheek, right? There cannot be an "atheist leader" in same sense as there are "religious leaders".

459. Richard Dawkins and Bill Maher

Comment #159356 by Peacebeuponme on April 12, 2008 at 2:34 am

Stephen Maxwell

I'm surprised noone has mentioned it yet but that was clearly a laugh track that they had added and it was pretty distracting.

Why do you think it was not the audience?

460. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #159354 by Peacebeuponme on April 12, 2008 at 2:27 am

Prick

My rebuttal:
If ALL guests were not listed, then how did Mathis spot PZ Myers'? Do we speak English? ALL, means ALL. Apparently scientists don't consider words to mean anything except what they want them to mean.

Richard went as a guest of PZ. What the fuck are you talking about?

461. Richard Dawkins and Bill Maher

Comment #159347 by Peacebeuponme on April 12, 2008 at 2:04 am

Bueller - That bit about the schoolgirl fight has made me not like Maher very much at all.

462. Richard Dawkins and Bill Maher

Comment #159339 by Peacebeuponme on April 12, 2008 at 1:37 am

Szymanowski

Anyone can see through the 'arrogance' thing. What atheist wears a three-foot-long hat and gold-trimmed robes?

Don't get me wrong, when Dawkins and Hitchens are on form, I'm cheering with the rest of the crowd. I agree with Steve that it was great to hear an American crowd so behind him.

I think its very weak when theists accuse Richard of being shrill and arrogant. I'm just questionning whether its fair or wise to call a scientist of Francis Collins standing an 'administrator'.

463. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #159332 by Peacebeuponme on April 12, 2008 at 1:15 am

whatrutalkingabout

I myself have not seen the film, (yet) but plan on making my own decision.

Will you?

464. Richard Dawkins and Bill Maher

Comment #159330 by Peacebeuponme on April 12, 2008 at 1:07 am

Quine

I read Collins' book. It went along fine while he was putting forth the message that evolution is real, and I often use it against creationists and IDiots. However, once he gets to the part about seeing the three part frozen waterfall, it goes straight down the drain.

Him reconciling his daughter's rape with God (because she can now help out in a rape crisis centre) is something I found particularly repugnant.

465. Richard Dawkins and Bill Maher

Comment #159329 by Peacebeuponme on April 12, 2008 at 1:05 am

Not sure it was particularly fair of Richard to be so disimissive of Francis Collins (even before the talking snake revelation). I thought they were friends?

Richard was very funny, but the clip will just add to the theist argument that atheists are smug and arrogant.

466. 'Expelled' ripped off Harvard's 'Inner Life of the Cell' animation

Comment #159188 by Peacebeuponme on April 11, 2008 at 3:00 pm

I wonder what mikejswalker's reclining woman looks like.

467. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #158876 by Peacebeuponme on April 11, 2008 at 6:21 am

D I Ogenes.

I'm tired of this now.

468. Fleabytes

Comment #158177 by Peacebeuponme on April 10, 2008 at 7:16 am

Steve

The T-shirt is a late birthday present, and is from the excellent www.xkcd.com

That reminds me. I must put up an avatar of me wearing my "Infidel" T-shirt.

469. Fleabytes

Comment #157849 by Peacebeuponme on April 9, 2008 at 3:52 pm

Keith - I was trying to remember of who it was you said we could do without his self absorbed posts. It was Richard, wasn't it?

470. Hitchens vs. Hitchens

Comment #157846 by Peacebeuponme on April 9, 2008 at 3:49 pm

Ragnar0kk

I for one loved Christopher in this debate. He took his brother to the floor and whooped his ass like there were 7 years old again! :)

I posted earlier on about how much I love Chrissy boy. I would just say now though, having watched the whole thing, that he was showboating rather than debating. He is moving dangerously into entertainment territory, playing to and commanding the crowd. As a result he missed a couple of big points he really could have hammered Peter on. Peter was wide open on the morality point but was not buried.

As point of reference, how much more powerful was his message the odd time he did get serious? The times his passion was stirred made me a bit disappointed with some of the rest.

471. Hitchens vs. Hitchens

Comment #157770 by Peacebeuponme on April 9, 2008 at 2:07 pm

I am taught and believe that God loves and accepts me in full knowledge of me. I work towards accepting myself in the same way.

So no-one is going to hell then?

472. Richard Dawkins on The Big Questions

Comment #157669 by Peacebeuponme on April 9, 2008 at 11:56 am

Steve

If they link to a site that simply reflects their views, rather than independent sources, that indicates that their mind is made up and they are simply hunting for support for their prejudices.

I'd add to that. If they consistently link to just one site that simply reflects their views. ASMarques only links to the IHR site, much like the creationist and answersingenesis.

By the way, a great example of the evidence-based reasoning of the IHR site

Such gas chamber tales are entirely fanciful. As early as 1960, historian Martin Broszat had publicly repudiated the Belsen gassing story. These days no reputable scholar supports it.

473. Richard Dawkins: 'Growth in creationist beliefs a problem for schools'

Comment #157654 by Peacebeuponme on April 9, 2008 at 11:44 am

Styrer you fuckin... Oh. We've stopped now.

474. Richard Dawkins on The Big Questions

Comment #157594 by Peacebeuponme on April 9, 2008 at 10:07 am

MPhil - I think sensitivity to the survivors is paramount. That is part of being a decent human being. So long as we don't make laws requiring sensitivity.

Holocaust denial may not be immoral though if it is honest, surely? If, based on the facts as you see them, your reason, however flawed, guides you to denial, then I can't see an immoral act. The trouble with holocaust deniers that actually do exist is that they are invariably racist anti-semites.

475. Richard Dawkins on The Big Questions

Comment #157576 by Peacebeuponme on April 9, 2008 at 9:35 am

MPhil

My feelings exactly. And I am very glad that this is deeply etched in the collective conscience of the world - and most of all Germany. Some will get defensive when some stupid assholes from Britain, the US or elsewhere will lift their right arm and cry "Sieg Heil" whenever they meet a German, when they still think Germans are generally Nazis and when these 12 years are the only thing they know about the over 1100 years of history of Germany

That the holocaust was terrible; that it should never happen again is a given. It shouldn't even need stating.

Can I just ask though: what did you think of the Jewish fellow on the programme? He seemed to indicate that Jewish suffering was such a special case that it needed a different application of law. That is not something I would subsrcribe to. The Mongol expansion did not happen by negotiation, but if I put forward the view that Ghengis Khan was a jolly fine fellow, I would be rebutted and ridiculed. I wouldn't expect the Chinese and most of Asia to want to imprison me. Of course that was over 600 years ago and WWII was pretty recent. However, I get disappointed by what seems to me to be special pleading for the Jewish case from time to time.

476. Richard Dawkins on The Big Questions

Comment #157566 by Peacebeuponme on April 9, 2008 at 9:16 am

Sargiest

How about:

Peter Tatchell would not exist without having a mother. His mother must have had sex with a man in order for Peter to exist. Peter's existence is good, in and of itself, so the behaviour that led to his existence must be its own justification. If Peter's mother had been a lesbian, Peter would not exist. Therefore, his mother's being a lesbian (and, by extension, all homosexual behaviour) leads to the non-existent of potential humans.

I know you are attempting to explain this bigot's backward logic, but it just is non-existent. By that rational rapists should be lauded. This woman is unfortunate that she cannot see properly through the mist of half-thoughts in her head. She does not seem to know how to spend a bit of time logcially taking things through to a conclusion. It's really sad. An even more sad that religions ponuce on people like these to assimilate them and survive.

477. Cult leader Pyotr Kuznetsov tries suicide after realising he was wrong about doomsday

Comment #157554 by Peacebeuponme on April 9, 2008 at 8:57 am

Keith - I enjoy your posts. You can kick people in a savage but yet refined way. I wouldn't want my amusement value to reduce because you are remiss in your research.

478. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #157491 by Peacebeuponme on April 9, 2008 at 7:05 am

Aaron9

I don't care to talk about other topics, but I thought the topic here was Dawkins article. I posted here because I feel he has hypocritial tactics.

If you want to talk about "beliefs" could we start another thread or some how chat? I, unlike those who responded to me, like to stay on topic and not shift away from thread types. If we can, let me know. Also, if you do respond please remember YOU ASKED MY OPINION I am not here to preach or anything, I just wanted to point out logical hypocritical statements in an article. You requested this, not me.

I wasen't too interested in a conversation about whether theist or atheists are the "whiniest". I'm also not really bothered about these little political games around the fringes. I am interested in whether a robust case for theism can be made. Mostly we get atheists on here, so when a theist comes on it is a good opportunity to debate. It may not be on topic, but that's ok. Discussions here are generally pretty open.

If you don't want to play, that's fine. I'm sure you'll get some satisfaction getting your blood up arguing about who is being hypocritical before getting bored and leaving.

479. Cult leader Pyotr Kuznetsov tries suicide after realising he was wrong about doomsday

Comment #157477 by Peacebeuponme on April 9, 2008 at 6:29 am

Keith

Really? The only threads I look at in a negative light are those that start and end with, "Awesome article!" and have very little variation inbetween.

My personal favourite is "First post!"

480. Richard Dawkins on The Big Questions

Comment #157447 by Peacebeuponme on April 9, 2008 at 5:36 am

Mitchell Gilks

When people clap to the point "you had a mother" as if it is somehow a rebutal to homosexuality...I don't know what to think. I am not even sure what that is suppose to mean, if I were debating her, that would stump me.

Yes, that confused me to. She repeated it again when questioned by Richard a Peter Tatchell (a great man). I don't believe in homosexuality because everyone has a mother. There is just no way of making sense of it.

481. Hitchens vs. Hitchens

Comment #157446 by Peacebeuponme on April 9, 2008 at 5:30 am

Darwin's Badger

I know what you mean, PBUM, but in a way, that's actually one of the things that I like the most about not subscribing to a dogma. i.e. it's okay to question or disagree with someone that one otherwise completely agrees with.

You are of course right. Its just that I have a particular issue with the Hitchens brothers. You see, when I was younger and at college I had a part time job as a sales assistant in a high street store. On my breaks I always used to read Peter's column in The Express. I was constantly amazed at how he managed to take the completely opposite view from me on absolutely everything. I disagreed with every column he wrote and he got me angry every time I saw him on TV.

Much later, over the last few years, when I started reading Dawkins, I noticed that he occasionally mentioned a Christopher Hitchens in friendly terms. Having forgotten Peter's first name by this point, my reaction was that, surely, Richard could not be referring to this man I so loathed? I then found out, that no, it was his brother. But not only that, his brother opposed him in all the ways I did, and was one of the most erudite, witty and brilliant orators around. A journalist, an atheist and a champion of freedom. I was overjoyed. An awesome discovery.

Since then, I listened to Christopher's brilliant talk on freedom of speech in Toronto. He expressed my feelings in a way I never could. You could not fail to be impressed by his argument or its delivery. Some people here talk about us "Hero-worshiping" Richard. If I could ever say I had a hero, it would be our friend Christopher. The perfect anti-dote to his misguided brother.

So, yes, agree or disagree with the argument, not the person. But when that person is Peter Hitchens I can't help but do it begrudgingly.

That's my arse-kissing bit done with.

482. Hitchens vs. Hitchens

Comment #157210 by Peacebeuponme on April 8, 2008 at 5:18 pm

Gonna finish this off tomorroew. Peter trots out the old "without god everthing is permitted". Embarrassing for him.

I thought he did well on the Iraq bit. Hate myself when I slightly side with him on anything.

483. Cult leader Pyotr Kuznetsov tries suicide after realising he was wrong about doomsday

Comment #157168 by Peacebeuponme on April 8, 2008 at 3:46 pm

Mark Smith

On another, but related, point, is it just me or have things gone rather weird on this site over the last couple of days? I guess the site is in some senses a community, and weird things do happen in communities, but I have found it all pretty uncomfortable.

Somebody saw a herder. Us cats have gotten nervous.

484. Richard Dawkins on The Big Questions

Comment #157155 by Peacebeuponme on April 8, 2008 at 3:37 pm

Richard Dawkins

The fatuous idiot on this TV discussion

You've dealt with some idiots in your time, but this guy seemed to be something else. Everything was just obvious to him. His arrogance and stupidity were truly astounding.

485. Cult leader Pyotr Kuznetsov tries suicide after realising he was wrong about doomsday

Comment #157150 by Peacebeuponme on April 8, 2008 at 3:30 pm

Dr Benway

Speaking of, where are Annabananna and Sharon McT? It might do them good to be told to relax and "feel the wind their rugs and curl their little toes to the sky."

I'd like to feel the wind in their rug ( (C) RM 2008 ). But seriously Doc, today seems to have been a day at the playground. Would we be better to just tell sexists, wankers and twats to apologise or fuck off and then move on?

486. Richard Dawkins on The Big Questions

Comment #157143 by Peacebeuponme on April 8, 2008 at 3:22 pm

Have to say Keith Porteous Wood did not cover himself in glory on this. He seemed to stumble a number of times on some truly inane points from that christian fool sat next to him.

Overall this programme just shows how monumentally stupid your average Briton is. Its embarrassing. How Richard keeps his cool on these programme Ill never know.

487. Richard Dawkins: 'Growth in creationist beliefs a problem for schools'

Comment #157046 by Peacebeuponme on April 8, 2008 at 2:01 pm

Corylus

Styrer

Strikes me that you are the type of person to wade in guns blazing as soon as you think people are being unfairly treated.

Styrer and al-rawandi are pretty similar like that as it goes. It'll all stop soon.

488. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #157016 by Peacebeuponme on April 8, 2008 at 1:42 pm

Aaron9 - Hi. Welcome to the site.

From your comments it seems clear that you are a theist. Would you be able to give me an outline of your belief system? I'd also be interested, as someone with no belief system, as to your thoughts on where you think I am going wrong and why I would be more correct to hold your beliefs.

489. Richard Dawkins: 'Growth in creationist beliefs a problem for schools'

Comment #157004 by Peacebeuponme on April 8, 2008 at 1:28 pm

yussel123

I know I'm a new-comer here so please forgive my presumption, but what does this exchange have to do with the increase in the belief in creation among British school children?

Its an open forum. Stuff gets said. Look at Fleabytes. Its heading to 8,000 posts. I'd say less than a quarter were about the article in question.

Easiest thing for you to do is ignore the posts that you are not interested in and make any comment you want. People will respond if they find it interesting. People usually find teaching creation in schools an interesting subject.

490. In search of the God particle

Comment #156986 by Peacebeuponme on April 8, 2008 at 1:09 pm

I'm a bit sad reading those comments over on the Times link. Why can't they post here and give us a bit of fun?

491. Richard Dawkins: 'Growth in creationist beliefs a problem for schools'

Comment #156965 by Peacebeuponme on April 8, 2008 at 12:46 pm

al-rawandi

At Fuck You, Fuck You and Fuck You Partners. They are quite a law firm, let me warn you.

That reminds me of something (From the wikipieda article on the British Satirical magazine, Private Eye):

An unlikely piece of British legal history occurred in the case Arkell v. Pressdram. The plaintiff was the subject of an article relating to illicit payments, and the magazine had ample evidence to back up the article. Arkell's lawyers wrote a letter in which, unusually, they said: "Our client's attitude to damages will depend on the nature of your reply". The response consisted, in part, of the following: "We would be interested to know what your client's attitude to damages would be if the nature of our reply were as follows : Fuck off". This caused a stir in certain quarters. In the years following, the magazine would use this case as a euphemism for an obscene reply: In subsequent cases, instead of using the obscenity, Private Eye (and others) would say something like "We refer you to the reply given in the case of Arkell v Pressdram", or perhaps "His reply was similar to that given to the plaintiff in Arkell v. Pressdram "

492. Richard Dawkins: 'Growth in creationist beliefs a problem for schools'

Comment #156961 by Peacebeuponme on April 8, 2008 at 12:40 pm

Quetzalcoatl

Now laughing like idiot at funny post. Wondering why find childish thing so funny.

493. Richard Dawkins: 'Growth in creationist beliefs a problem for schools'

Comment #156953 by Peacebeuponme on April 8, 2008 at 12:32 pm

Why Philip end up on alternate comment thread? Me no understand.

494. Richard Dawkins: 'Growth in creationist beliefs a problem for schools'

Comment #156946 by Peacebeuponme on April 8, 2008 at 12:25 pm

styrer

You had better have some fucking terrific evidence for this claim.

Be very careful here, al-rawandi. Not only is your continued abuse against Richard Morgan pissing me off; you are on extremely dangerous legal ground.

Dodgy legal ground - on a web thread. Hmm let me see

Prince Phillip had Diana killed
Tom Cruise is gay
John McCain touches children.

The liar accusation is easily proved by the Diogenes2008 posts. The pervert one...well maybe that's a bit strong, but he did make some untoward comments to at least one female poster, from memory.

After his post on the FCOS he has shown himself to be duplicitous, so I call cunt on him.

495. Cult leader Pyotr Kuznetsov tries suicide after realising he was wrong about doomsday

Comment #156634 by Peacebeuponme on April 8, 2008 at 4:55 am

mikejswalker

One 'birds' endearing comment is another 'ladies' insult.

I was usuing it as a reference to Dr Benway's pic of course, but I do have some sympathy with mike here. All depends on the context, but 'ladies' should not necessarily be seen as patronising. That said Corylus rightly points us males out when we slip up and I'm glad about that.

496. Cult leader Pyotr Kuznetsov tries suicide after realising he was wrong about doomsday

Comment #156467 by Peacebeuponme on April 7, 2008 at 3:39 pm

mikejswalker - you know the Doc is a bird right?

Not sure I'm with you on the whole "let just calm down" and "everyone is entitled to their opinions" approach after being one of the ones who got piqued so greatly earlier on.

I'm sure others can dissect your last post better than I can, should they wish.

497. Cult leader Pyotr Kuznetsov tries suicide after realising he was wrong about doomsday

Comment #156458 by Peacebeuponme on April 7, 2008 at 3:28 pm

Diacanu - it cannot be said that your posts lack clarity. Follow up posts are generally not necessary.

Hole-pockers will poke holes if they want to. You can be sure of that here.

498. Get out of here, atheists!

Comment #156452 by Peacebeuponme on April 7, 2008 at 3:11 pm

Clydey - Well all we are saying is "do unto others..." right? Stealing after being stolen from would be a parallel. As I said before maybe you can say they should know better.

I do see what you are saying - you would think having first hand experience of something should make you more sensitive to it happening to others. My interest just gets piqued by issues of fairness. Try to treat everyone the same for the same actions. A bit idealistic I know, and I've probably badgered a fairly innocuous comment too far but such opinions interest me!

Actually, the racism point is interesting. Imagine two men. Once black and one white. Both are racist. To me it doesn't seem unusual or hypocritical that either remains racist in the face of racist abuse from the other.

499. Cult leader Pyotr Kuznetsov tries suicide after realising he was wrong about doomsday

Comment #156445 by Peacebeuponme on April 7, 2008 at 2:58 pm

Richard Morgan

as a last word

Last word? On this site!

500. Cult leader Pyotr Kuznetsov tries suicide after realising he was wrong about doomsday

Comment #156442 by Peacebeuponme on April 7, 2008 at 2:54 pm

Richard Morgan - Jesus Christ, this is not some grand scene at the end of a film. Post away if you think you still have things you want to say. Or not. Whatever. Everyone talks bollocks and fucks up from time-to-time. There is no need for overblown apologies and grand gestures. Life goes on.

I've got nothing against you, but the amount of "goodbye cruel world" posts we get on this site gives me a headache.