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Comments by Styrer-


501. Fleabytes

Comment #131209 by Styrer- on February 22, 2008 at 4:04 am

Great, let's put on an in-house bickering session for David's attention.


Never a true more true pronoun* assigned. :)

Yes I know what a pronoun is, it stand in for a noun. It seems that Styrer and some others would name me a fuckwit, thus it's a fuckwit for Baeoz. Let's not get into Russell's theory of descriptions, because my description doesn't live up to the pronoun fuckwit. :)


Superb uptake of my invitation to put on an in-house shindig! Didn't understand a single inflammatory note!:)

Could I possibly ask you to change just one tiny aspect of your comment? The words? (Ok, best back to Baldrick, knew I couldn't pull it off...!)

Best,
Styrer

502. Fleabytes

Comment #131196 by Styrer- on February 22, 2008 at 3:44 am

I believe I did. He was the one who proudly termed himself WeeFlee Styrer.


Great, let's put on an in-house bickering session for David's attention.

Fuckwit.

Best,
Styrer

503. Fleabytes

Comment #131185 by Styrer- on February 22, 2008 at 3:32 am

The inimitable WeeFlea says:


Come on, folks - let's call him David and see where we get.

Fair?

Best,
Styrer

504. Fleabytes

Comment #131181 by Styrer- on February 22, 2008 at 3:25 am

But given the assurance you have stated I will not go on to respond to Paula.


Surely you mean now, not not.

Hope this isn't an indication of illogical negativity to come...!

Best,
Styrer

505. Fleabytes

Comment #131176 by Styrer- on February 22, 2008 at 3:19 am

Also, there are other purposes to a review like this, and one thing Paula handled well was to point out issues to do with the style of writers, especially Robertson's "all about me" approach.


Oh, I have little doubt of this.

But it is surely not an overt purpose, and as such, is hardly relevant to my point.

Best,
Styrer

506. Fleabytes

Comment #131170 by Styrer- on February 22, 2008 at 3:10 am

ad feminam


Hope this was a joke, Richard. Ad hominem is entirely neutral, in terms of gender. If not a joke, tut, tut, Professor!

Good to know David is back on, anyway - if he was ever off - as our teeth would otherwise feel deprived of a bite or two.

Edit - I note a bite into your Latin has already been permitted to BAEOZ. Point remains, though.

Best,
Styrer

507. Fleabytes

Comment #131135 by Styrer- on February 22, 2008 at 2:12 am

Taken to its logical conclusion, your argument would mean that none of us should ever criticise the work of a "flea".


Well, of a Dawkinsian flea, you should add, as this is the only type to which Paula's piece responds.

Logical conclusion? Yes, indeed, as I indicated in my comment:

But I remain unconvinced that such an arduous undertaking was ever necessary, when Dawkins' book speaks so magnificently and so profoundly eloquently to all of the issues you felt in need of clarifying on his behalf.


You have, inadvertently perhaps, simply re-iterated my point.

Best,
Styrer

508. Fleabytes

Comment #131121 by Styrer- on February 22, 2008 at 1:50 am

Oh dear, you're sounding like my ex-wife. (LOL)
But I understand your point.
I was having an emotional, un-reasoned reaction to your daring to criticize everybody's-darling's hard work.


No doubt my profane language added to your reaction.

I will delete my original post tomorrow.


You'd better fucking not.

Best,
Styrer

509. Fleabytes

Comment #131115 by Styrer- on February 22, 2008 at 1:32 am

The same Styrer writes :
The texts you chose to attack in rather pedestrian manner (their own texts being possibly wholly pedestrian in presentation does not enforce you to respond likewise!

AND
...your godforsaken god is a load of shite....
unalterable, irrational crap.
...fuck off.
Well, at least you're consistent!
But frankly, Paula, in her "pedestrian manner" is the better communicator here.

You would do Paula an enormous disservice and grant her very little respect if you do not offer her every conceivable dissenting point you can think of.
So your criticism was motivated by respect and the desire to "do her a service"?
If you say so.


I am not absolutely sure what little game you have decided you wish to play here.

Is it mixing the import of one post with that of another? Is it taking the tone of one post and mixing it or contrasting it with another? Is it - I'm grasping here - a matter of taking the style of one post and comparing it to an unidentified list of 'what's ok, what's not'?

The rules seem a bit complicated, as I've tried to discern them. Perhaps you would like to clarify them?

Perhaps you could include - off the top of my head - some requirement that argumentative gobshites be compelled to spell out clearly any point of disagreement they may have?

Just a thought.

Best,
Styrer

510. Fleabytes

Comment #131091 by Styrer- on February 22, 2008 at 12:32 am

So for my part I've had it as far as this site is concerned.


Thank christ for that. Goodbye.

Afore ye go - you've been granted more insight on this site into why your godforsaken god is a load of shite than you'll ever be granted elsewhere.

Don't come back until you've discovered there is more between your evolutionarily-developed ears than earwax and dogmatic, unalterable, irrational crap. And how you may use it.

Now, be as good as your word (for once) and fuck off.

Styrer

511. Fleabytes

Comment #131089 by Styrer- on February 22, 2008 at 12:11 am

But, my dear, respected Styrer, my feeling is that Paula was motivated by the wish to do us all a favour, (and have a lot of fun in doing so, I'm sure) "us" - here on RD.Net
Her pals.
More power to yer elbow, Paula!
Styrer - try not to over-dramatize, ok, chum?


Not ok, chum.

You would do Paula an enormous disservice and grant her very little respect if you do not offer her every conceivable dissenting point you can think of.

Do think on.

Best,
Styrer

512. Fleabytes

Comment #131087 by Styrer- on February 22, 2008 at 12:05 am

I realise that every time I try to defend myself it seems as though it irritates and annoys some people more and I apologise for doing so again. It's difficult enough to have to deal with the gross exaggeration (ie. Fedler stating that my book is filled with quotes from this website - there are a handful in the whole book), the bile and the continual ad hominem, but what amazes and saddens me is how so much hatred can turn even the clearest situation round, so that words mean whatever you want them to mean. It is a fact that I have been banned (at least four times), it is a fact that those bans remain in place and that a considerable number of my posts and many other people's were removed months after the event. It is also a fact that I did not post my Dawkins Delusion article (and I did not use that title). I did not even know about this site but Josh apparently posted it, resulting in the OTT reaction that followed.

Of course I know that my views are offensive to many people on this site - and I know that I express them in a robust way - but then I would argue that many people here do far worse (I have never for example made remarks about people's mothers, sexual innuendo etc) and it is allowed to stay. I would also suggest that Richard Dawkins is equally if not more robust in his own writing. But I am not convinced that my style, language or the fact that my views cause arguments should be a reason for banning me.

And yes I am banned. I would love to respond to Paula's review of my book, but until I know that I am unbanned and that my posts will not be removed, I see no point in wasting hours writing up a response. The fact that I am allowed to post as 'clearthinker' just now is irrelevant. Given my previous experience I have no faith that I will be allowed tomorrow. Let me post under my own name and I will be happy to respond.

By the way I don't often visit this site nowadays - there are some occasionally good articles but the lack of debate and the constant self congratulation and abuse do depress me.

The only reason I caught on to this one was the following letter


- If you haven't heard, an official response to your book has been put up at http://richarddawkins.net/articleComments,2285,Fleabytes,Paula-Kirby,page1#comments

Why don't you come back on to the Richard Dawkins website and post a response? I know it isn't written by Dawkins himself however it represents what everyone thinks. You criticise for Dawkins for not addressing his critics however you don't address yours. You ran away from Dawkin's website and most people think you should come back and respond to this outstanding demolition of your book.

James

P.s - We've discovered that you make up the quotes for your book as well(http://richarddawkins.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=35893 <http://richarddawkins.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=35893> <http://richarddawkins.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=35893> )


I find it interesting that James talks about 'what everyone thinks'. If this were true it would confirm my fear that this website is really for a group herd mentality? Is there no original thought? I am sure that there are at least some on this website who are not part of the 'everyone thinks' mentality.

I was accused of running away (when I had been banned) and of lying by some atheist supersleuth who because he found that some of the posts were no longer on the website, immediately concluded that they were never there. It apparently never crossed his mind that they might have been removed. Thankfully I have a record of all the posts, and many other people saw them as well. But it is really sad that some people are reduced to such depths.

Personally I have a lot of time for people like 'J' - but they do seem to be a minority here. At least he is prepared to listen and engage and present a rational and well thought out case for atheism. But not many are like him. Let me share with you another e-mail I got from an atheist this week - it's sadly too typical of the kind of drivel and emotion that seems to inhabit far too many atheists (and again I stress - by no means all).

I post it too you as received.


David Robertson smells of poo
I flushed his book down the loo
Dawkins is much cleverer than him
Oh Robertson is so, so dim
For it is the season
To laugh at Robertson's lack of reason
The day Robertson and Dawkins debate
Will be Robrtson's very fate
The Dawkins Letters is crap
and thats the end of my rap



this site is actually outstandingly open, liberal, and transparent in allowing posters the freedom to directly post a wide variety of opinions without filtering by moderators. Your own website "www.freechurch.org" only presents comments that have been inspected individually by moderators - effectively "banning" every post they don't approve of. t


Donald, you know that this is not fair. Firstly our own website puts on plenty posts we do not approve of. Most of the recent ones have been by atheists. The only reason we have a moderated board is to prevent the kind of language and nonsense that our good friend Billy delights in. And you also know that this site does not allow a wide variety of opinions without filtering etc. The proof of that is seen simply in the fact that my opinions are banned and in the missing 300 posts from the original thread. Whether you have filtering before or filtering after does not make much difference.


I have no wish to waste any more of your time. Nor to try to engage in a debate which you clearly do not want. There is no need to ban me - I will do my best to remain silent. Unless you are willing to let me respond to Paula. All I need is an assurance that my response will not be removed, before I write a full reply. Meanwhile I apologise for any offence caused and hope that one day you will all find the One who is the way, the truth and the life. (and that is not meant as a wind up!)


David

That was quite a post for a banned member, would you not agree?

Would you not also agree that you could have used a good deal, if not all, of it to offer your riposte to Paula's piece?

But you took no such chance to do so.

Is the reason for your failure to seize such an excellent opportunity to infiltrate this pernicious site with your return thrusts not perhaps your continuous insistence on playing victim to us all?

Quite how you manage to marry supremely insincere humility with grotesque and overt solipsism here requires a thread in itself to work out.

Surprise me. Go on. Tell me something to convince me your god is alive, thinking of me.

My heart is open and is waiting for your contribution.

As long as you've not been banned meantime, of course.

Best,
Styrer

513. Fleabytes

Comment #131078 by Styrer- on February 21, 2008 at 10:21 pm

Then whose is?


Mine. Only mine. And not yours. Not anyone's. :)

Do stop ignoring my idea that Richard's like or dislike for Paula's piece is, precisely, the opinion I cite as being of no consequence whatsoever in saying 'yay' or 'nay' to my post.

Bloody amateur.

Best,
Styrer

514. Fleabytes

Comment #131075 by Styrer- on February 21, 2008 at 10:01 pm

Oh, that's just dumb.

This is Richard's site, and he has a posting account, and often uses it, if he objected to Paula's stuff he can speak up.

You taking offense in his stead is as presumptuous as you're accusing Paula of being.


Diacanu

Offence? Rubbish, man.

No such talk ever passed my e-lips, if you'd care to re-read. Richard may love Paula's piece; he may hate it; but his opinion is absolutely of no importance whatsoever in either endorsing or gainsaying the import of my post.

Wake up and make sense before I fall asleep.

Best,
Styrer

515. Fleabytes

Comment #131057 by Styrer- on February 21, 2008 at 8:31 pm

Paula

What a whopper to get through. Just finished.

I hope you won't mind if I place my head above the parapet by making a few naysaying comments. They may at least serve to remind you that this site is capable of escaping wholesale sheep-nodding 'yays' from my fellow atheists, as we've unfortunately seen throughout this thread in response to your piece.

The texts you chose to attack in rather pedestrian manner (their own texts being possibly wholly pedestrian in presentation does not enforce you to respond likewise!) are all responses to Dawkins' most recent work, TGD, and it is from him that most readers of the books you critique will expect a response.

To illustrate: I might read a book by McGrath and seek a decent rebuttal to his naysayers, but I would not be happy for an unknown McGrath apologist to take on the task of supporting his points in his stead. I would not countenance anything less than a rebuttal from the author himself.

It is this notion - that you are placing your own rebuttals to Dawkins' detractors over his own possible responses to them - that leads to the idea that you are indicating that Dawkins' book was not good enough to stand alone in rebutting each and every one of Cornwell, McGrath, Robertson and Wilson's books' so-called 'arguments'.

It is this latter point which concerns me most. While your desire to write a robust critique of Dawkins' fleas is not in question, your reasons for doing so most certainly are.

It is largely well-written - a few parts would need excision/condensing for publication purposes - and you are to be applauded for having such a good go at the four fleas you selected. But I remain unconvinced that such an arduous undertaking was ever necessary, when Dawkins' book speaks so magnificently and so profoundly eloquently to all of the issues you felt in need of clarifying on his behalf.

Best,
Styrer

516. DLD08 - Life: a gene-centric view

Comment #130646 by Styrer- on February 21, 2008 at 4:39 am

Brockman, with his 'laymen' perspective, although quite intellectual, grounded the discussion. Brockman was an asset to the scientists' chat.


I disagree with this. I really couldn't quite follow at times what Brockman's 'contributions' were really adding here - more often than not, they simply slowed down or side-tracked the fascinating to-and-fro between Richard and Craig. I wish he had simply let them get on with it!

The whole of this presentation - except of course for the exchanges between Richard and Craig - had a slightly surreal quality to it, I found, probably a combination of Brockman's slightly off-key offerings and of various journalists addressing Richard but asking about Craig's views and vice versa!

A bit of a disappointment, sorry to say, as I would simply have liked to hear more from the speakers, and especially from Richard.

Best,
Styrer

517. Feb 12th: Happy Darwin Day!

Comment #128900 by Styrer- on February 18, 2008 at 8:10 am

It is nothing of the sort!


You really are too kind - I am aware only of what I've read in all too few books written with nincompoops like me in mind.

Still - I do want to know and I thank you for your tolerance of me in trying to explain.

Best,
Styrer

518. Feb 12th: Happy Darwin Day!

Comment #128887 by Styrer- on February 18, 2008 at 7:07 am

Well, the fact that the appearance is followed soon by the vanishing kind of implies that nothing is pretty stable, as it is the state things return to. Perhaps sooner or later to get a big enough fluctuation that you end up with the very small seed that is needed to start a universe. That seed only has to be small because the total energy of a universe like ours is pretty much zero (the energy involved in gravity is negative, and counterbalances the energy in the mass).


So in terms of the 'nothing' being unstable stuff, Stenger is wrong? The science could not support his idea that 'nothing' could give rise to 'something'?

Your 'big enough fluctuation' giving rise to the 'seed needed to start a universe' could not have been a fluctuation between nothing/something?

Forgive my infantile and pedestrian questioning - this is not my field and I'm in way over my head. :(

Best,
Styrer

519. Feb 12th: Happy Darwin Day!

Comment #128877 by Styrer- on February 18, 2008 at 6:41 am

Cheers


Arguably the best bit.

'Feculent'? That's me all learned up today.

Keep it coming.

Wonderful stuff.

Best,
Styrer

520. Feb 12th: Happy Darwin Day!

Comment #128873 by Styrer- on February 18, 2008 at 6:29 am

Well, yes, but that sort of seems to me to be begging the question. We take all this from nothing because nothing is unstable. But it does not say why nothing is unstable.


I think what Stenger was saying was that our idea of 'nothing' may not be all that it should be. I admit it's almost baffling to me. But if quantum fluctuation is really the sudden, unpredicted appearance of something followed swiftly by its vanishing, as quantum theorists witness, I do not see why 'nothing' cannot be unstable without explanation.

In any case, it makes more sense to me than a great big overlord whose creation must surely be the penultimate (!) 'reductio ad absurdum'.

What do you think?

Best,
Styrer

521. Feb 12th: Happy Darwin Day!

Comment #128866 by Styrer- on February 18, 2008 at 6:03 am

Actually, on the snowflake thing, didn't Stenger make an interesting point?

That, given the absence of thermal influences from bodies such as the sun and earth, H20, a simple combination, necessarily moves towards complexity (snowflake 'design')? Does this not indicate movement from simple to complex in devastating rebuttal of wooter's et al idee fixe?

Stenger also posited that 'nothing' is inherently more unstable than 'something', thereby allowing quantum mechanics in all of its incomprehensible glory to take 'nothing' to something.

Have I got this right?

I remember being excited by the idea, anyway. :)

Best,
Styrer

522. Feb 12th: Happy Darwin Day!

Comment #128863 by Styrer- on February 18, 2008 at 5:48 am

How about:

Flag as [Offensive] [Troll] [Spam] [Wooter]

?


Nearly did meself an indignity reading this. Fantastic.

Oh, but would not such a list be endless...? :)

Best,
Styrer

523. Feb 12th: Happy Darwin Day!

Comment #128858 by Styrer- on February 18, 2008 at 5:41 am

The "Other comments by..." helps a bit in this regard, but it is still a pain to track it all though. It would be good if you could flag your comment as a response to another comment, as in some others websites.


I was a member of catstevens.com for six years until its demise and John Gibbons (the site's frankly wonderful webmeister) had a useful little addition - a 'quote' button (here we must use 'blockquote' etc) you press to bring up the reply box. Loved it.

Sadly catstevens.com was bought out by... Yusuf Islam, and his fandom declined in measure with his new, shite, no-members, no-forums permitted site.

Still love Cat's music above all others', though. What a loss - another reason to hate religion and its effects.

Anyway - back on-topic - Josh could handle anything we throw at him, if Richard is prepared to pay!

Best,
Styrer

524. Feb 12th: Happy Darwin Day!

Comment #128848 by Styrer- on February 18, 2008 at 5:05 am

I have arranged to set up some web pages with "quick rebuttal" links, I thought it could also be a sort of "FAQ" for some of the questions that often get asked.

I realise there are some good pages out there, but there is such expertise on this site that I am sure something could be put together that is rich in information and also based on dealing with the specific questions we are frequently asked.

I did have another idea, which was to keep track somehow of who has asked what and when. Some of the worst offenders in terms of irrationality "thread hop" - they will give up on one topic, then start again on another as if no-one had answered. I think it would be quite effective to be able to say "As has been pointed out to you 5 times before in the following messages...".


As long as such FAQs are included on this site, I'm in favour.

Links to outside websites for such issues as have been raised here should not be permitted, of course. This website is also a business, let us not forget, and encouragement to seek advice elsewhere would equate to a shop-owner advertising in-store his competitor's shop next door!

I'd be extremely reluctant to go down the 'anti-thread hop' idea you propose. Those 'sinning' can quickly be recognised and thence ignored, quite without creating an e-surveillance camera watching all our moves. Let's do it for ourselves.

Bring 'em on!

Best,
Styrer

525. Feb 12th: Happy Darwin Day!

Comment #128842 by Styrer- on February 18, 2008 at 4:44 am

Steve

Smugness and self-satisfaction be damned. You're thinking far too much about possible irrational responses from this website's visitors.

Let anyone coming upon this site make his or her own way through it. Whether they decide to stay and learn or leave in ignorance of what's on offer is of absolutely no concern.

See off with alacrity those you discern as unwilling learners, and those armed with anti-reason agendas. They are wooterly clear. What I like about this site (as distinct from some others which I come across) is its relative lack of formal 'moderation' from an on-high administrative 'e-Big Brother'.

Within limits, we are our own moderators.

At some point last year I suggested setting up a resource which would contain quick rebuttals. For example, if someone says "the appearance of order in the universe must indicate a designer", we could provide a rebuttal that was as brief as "see this link", "see note 100 on this page". Instead, this seemed to morph into "general discussions on how to respond to the religious", which, although useful I am sure, was not what I felt necessary.


I am not quite sure either why such a marvellous proposal was not acted on. There may be constraints we're not aware of (Josh and Wayne could clarify) but the principle remains - quick dispatch of old, well-worn, untenable positions serves the ethos of a site whose aim is the very opposite of support for well-worn, untenable positions, fallen into obsolescence.

However it pans out - come back to those who value you and tell the Wooters to fuck, swiftly, off!

Best,
Styrer

526. Feb 12th: Happy Darwin Day!

Comment #128834 by Styrer- on February 18, 2008 at 3:41 am

It adds nothing to the argument, except for encouraging people to back away slowly from the speaker.


May I ask you, Steve, why you repeatedly fail to follow your own great advice here, and simply 'back away'?

You are consistently fuelling the Wooter fire by granting him your time in replying to him.

I am a member who values your educational responses to those here who genuinely want to find out more about this world, and I hence resent the amount of time you are spending rehearsing, repeatedly, legitimate arguments on an irrational, illiterate imbecile fanatic such as Wooter.

Best,
Styrer

527. Defying Gravity in Science Class

Comment #128787 by Styrer- on February 17, 2008 at 11:47 pm

22. Comment #128779 by Steve Zara on February 17, 2008 at 11:23 pm

There is no other advantage.Wisdom reminds me of the fact that one must remain humble ...it is the most difficult skill to learn for any knowledge seeker.


I don't consider believing you know far more about physics and the nature of gravity than people who have been studying this for years as being humble. I am only an amateur in this, but even I can see that you are just putting vague ideas together with little understanding.

Perhaps you could explain how God is supposed to fit into all this?


Steve

What the hell are you doing?

Please stop giving the likes of wooter and dkv reason to perpetually come back at you with vacuous inanities.

If, Steve, you would distill all your possible retorts to the illiterate, innumerate, inconsequential numbskulls as you provide them, these may form, independently, nuggets of information worth reading.

But do not expect me to go through the pain of sifting your gold from their shite.

Think on, good Doctor.

Best,
Styrer

528. Sharia fiasco

Comment #128718 by Styrer- on February 17, 2008 at 6:46 pm

Much interesting comment has taken place since I last visited - some of the stories have been a valuable education, for which I'm grateful. I was excited at several points, believe it or not, that I might be encouraged to change my mind on some of my earlier comments. The informed comments of Oisha, Al-Rawandi et al gave me pause.

But I haven't. I could almost accuse you of being 'unpersuasive' if I did not think you would throw the word 'unheeding' (or 'stupid', if you wished to be crueller!) right back at me.

Was I really attempting a re-definition of the term Islam and of Muslim? Or does not my use of the terms simply follow axiomatically from an adherence to the 'holy scripture' which is mandated by Islam itself? Perhaps the nomenclature idea of Sauveture carries weight, but Oisha's idea that my ideas are in some way letting the moderates off the hook by permitting them to 'shirk.. responsibility all too easily' can surely be seen as the precise opposite of my words 'Moderate, fundamentalist, mere 'nodder-towards'; I remain fearful of them all. They are all, in potentia, life-threatening conditions.'

Some here seem to think I was simply reserving the word Muslim for those of Islam's adherents who take the Koran and the Hadith as infallible indicators of the word of their supernatural deity, in the most diligent and closely-followed readings of these texts. The basis for this seems to be the comment I made ('those adherents whom you have decided to separate from the tenets of Islam are not, in fact, Islamists or Muslims as we usually understand') relating to the excellent Steve's apparent appeasement technique of divorcing Islam's tenets from its more moderate adherents. This was, you may recall, a point on which I took the good Dr Zara to task.

No. I define even the 'nodder-towards' as a Muslim, and urge as strong and robust a condemnation of this, more 'moderate' believer's selective acceptance of the Koran and of the Hadith as I would ask us all to reserve for the so-called 'fundamentalist' reading of these texts.

Mine may be a 'zero-tolerance' approach (is this not really what my liberal naysayers here cannot accept?) but it is one which I think is intellectually honest, and which refuses to fall through the dreadful and dangerous trapdoor of propitiation, which some here seem to be creeping ever more towards.

Best,
Styrer

529. Hitchens and Boteach Debate on God

Comment #126460 by Styrer- on February 13, 2008 at 9:35 am

I hope that it will one day become as socially unacceptable to say you believe in gods as it is now to say that you keep a slave.


Let us pray. :)

Not sure you entirely got my point. But the above comment drags you somewhat back from self-inflicted marginality.

:)

Best,
Styrer

530. Sharia fiasco

Comment #126449 by Styrer- on February 13, 2008 at 9:11 am

Sort of the way my father did feel an overwhelming sense of terror from the Soviets.


Big difference, Al-Rawandi. The soviet regime was headed-up by humans, who could at least be shot.

Try the same with dogmatic, unshakeable belief in gods.

I thought our outpourings on this site were at least partly a recognition of this.

Best,
Styrer

531. Sharia fiasco

Comment #126447 by Styrer- on February 13, 2008 at 9:06 am

My guess is Styrer neither knows this nor cares


So your 'guessing' condemns me, before you ask me.

What an example you set for the principles of this site.

You are at least half right - I was aware of this, and I do not care.

My reasons are (fairly) plainly stated here, if you care to replace venom towards me with inquiry into the comments I've made.

Styrer

532. Sharia fiasco

Comment #126440 by Styrer- on February 13, 2008 at 8:53 am

I don't disagree here.

Allow me to be clear. The tenents of Islam, as expressed explicitly and implicitly in the cannonical texts are nasty and inhuman. Anyone accepting these as a basis for their lives, needs to be questioned and dealt with in a reasonable and appropriate manner.

I would always qualify that with, Islam is a variegated way of understanding the world. One which I hold to be wrong in all instances, but only evil in some. There are plenty of Muslims who do not seek the destruction of western civilization. I would like to think we would support those who seek reconciliation, and denounce those that support violence. It takes a degree of investigation to understand what seperates these people.

I second oisha, you endorsed a comment by someone who has on this site, repeatedly expressed hate and contempt for all Muslims. Who has never really accepted the idea that there are moderates and who sought to eject the intolerant ones from the country. If none are moderates, and the immoderate ones are to be expelled, what is the conclusiong we are to draw?

Now, you may not have known all the background or read all the posts, so I understand if there is a misunderstanding. I happen to know many British Muslims who are really decent people, who enjoy the occasional beer, who renounce jihad as a violent act, etc... So I would hope they aren't expelled.


Expulsion, kicking out, enforced emigration - let these be gone from the discussion. I want you to grant me the same courtesy in dismissing this pernicious notion as I gladly offered to Oisha on realising my error in blanket endorsement of another member's post.

'Variegated way of understanding the world'? No doubt you are correct. But what surely brings this multifarious concoction of views to an altogether ignoble, dangerous and anti-rational pin-point focus is faith.

Moderate, fundamentalist, mere 'nodder-towards'; I remain fearful of them all. They are all, in potentia, life-threatening conditions.

Some of you give the most unfortunate impression of never having read Harris on this. Or, if read, of having dismissed his notions out of hand in similar manner to my thoughts here.

I equate any proclamation of belief in the tenets of the Koran and any adherence to the Hadith with intellectual nullity. It does not matter whether such proclamation merely nods to, cautiously embraces, or whole-heartedly endorses such ideas. It does not matter if such proponents can sit down and have a pint of ale with you. The very act of granting authority of these texts and ideas over and above independent acquaintance with the world is enough, frankly, to worry me to shreds.

Lest it be unclear - this goes for all fancies of superstitious supernaturalism.

Hopefully I have been clearer here.

Best,
Styrer

533. Sharia fiasco

Comment #126424 by Styrer- on February 13, 2008 at 8:23 am

Styrer,

Ah, well, actually, you quoted Fanusi Khiyal at length and then gave his comments a resounding "Hear, hear" (Comment #126303). In the process, you endorsed the comment, "I see no problem whatsoever in giving them a swift kick out the door, back into the Middle Eastern hellhole of their choice."

How else were Al-rawandi, Steve and myself supposed to interpret this endorsement, except as a statement of your support for the tranfer of an entire group of people?


Absolutely right. My mistake. Sorry.

Got carried away with the thrust of Fanusi's post, which I still endorse.

Best,
Styrer

534. Murder plot against Danish cartoonist

Comment #126414 by Styrer- on February 13, 2008 at 7:31 am

Torture is morally repugnant, it should not be the policy of the United States to engage in torture.



Still, there are scenarios where to paraphrase another fictional character "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one".


So, Radesq - what on earth are you saying here?

If torture is wrong in all cases, then your second quoted statement is redundant.

If it is not, your first quote falls short.

Please explain.

Best,
Styrer

535. Sharia fiasco

Comment #126405 by Styrer- on February 13, 2008 at 7:04 am

Styrer,



It is Islam, and all of its adherents, that is the problem.


Intellectual cowardice.


Have you sat down and asked any Muslim what they think? Many do reject the more unpleasant tenents in the faith. Not all, and the ones that don't should shape up or an appropriate solution needs to be devised. And that solution is something worthy of discussion.

No one here is advocating shariah law, quite the opposite.

But if you would like to begin the transfer of an entire group people, please come out and say it so we know where you stand.


I think I've made my stance on the bulk of the questions you raise quite clear, except for your wholly wrong-headed attribution to my comments of 'a transfer of an entire group of people'.

Where the fuck did that come from, sir? Certainly not from me.

I am proposing that we do not duck or dive when it comes to Islam and its followers. I propose that we tell them, flat out, that their beliefs are not theirs to hold while they insist that they be forced on the rest of us. That we explain, with evidence, why they are wrong to give their own lives, and oftentimes ours, to an unsupportable world view. And to show them - in Dawkinsian fashion - the wonderful truth on offer to them when they allow the despicable scales to fall from their eyes.

Have I, yet, made myself clear?

Best,
Styrer

536. Sharia fiasco

Comment #126399 by Styrer- on February 13, 2008 at 6:49 am

Perhaps, but let me name some Muslims and see if you think these individuals are a real problem for our society:

Jasmin Alibi-Brown, Independent columnist.

"Prince" Naseem Hamed MBE, boxer.
Lord Ahmed and Baroness Warsi, UK peers who helped end the "teddy row".

Sure, you can name some hard-line fundamentalists.

But surely you would not say that the above people are a problem?



How boorish it must seem of me but yes, I see them as a problem too.

I wonder if the people you cite (and I suspect you can name more) simply fall under the import of my suggestion above:'those adherents whom you have decided to separate from the tenets of Islam are not, in fact, Islamists or Muslims as we usually understand.'

In the same way that I have said here that a theistic scientist is necessarily a poor scientist, I cannot see how any Muslim who follows the precepts of the Koran and of the Hadith can in any way be considered 'not a problem'.

I guess we've gone as far as we can on this, unless you have a brilliant spark to throw my way. I'm out. I think that you're a nice man, and that your niceness is preventing you from dissociating the person from an idea which I think mutates horribly that very humanness you seek to retain as inviolable. You (and I hope I do you no wrong here) see my views as a lack of recognition of the essential and separate human quality which you want to see enjoyed by all.

Thanks for your replies.

Best,
Styrer

537. Sharia fiasco

Comment #126388 by Styrer- on February 13, 2008 at 6:13 am

No, it certainly is NOT all of its adherents.

That is, I think, a dreadful thing to say. We need to stop confusing ideas and people.


I think you have made yourself entirely useless in a debate which Islam will continue to make into a war.


Time for me to shut up on this thread then :)


First, your shutting up would be disastrous to this site (and for me) despite the dismissal overinflated egos such as Scooter's vacuously offer you.

Second - and to the point in hand - you're letting that egalitarian feeling take over your clinical analysis again, aren't you?

Stop confusing people and ideas? How? Islam makes a positive fest in equating the two, in attempting to make mockery by its tenets of the most noble values you think we should all embrace. In positively regaling itself with the dehumanising results of its pernicious creed.

I would offer that those adherents whom you have decided to separate from the tenets of Islam are not, in fact, Islamists or Muslims as we usually understand.

I wish I could persuade you - my words here are obviously not up to the task - to see Islam and its adherents as inextricably linked. Your good nature is not a help in this, Steve, I think.

I wonder if you could spend an extra moment or two on explaining to me quite why, without repetition of above comments, I am so very wrong here. I simply don't see my error at the moment.

Thanks and best,
Styrer

538. Sharia fiasco

Comment #126381 by Styrer- on February 13, 2008 at 5:29 am

Right. So point out the Islam-followers intent on killing us, and deal with them. But don't label Islam as a whole as some kind of nasty foreign culture. The vast majority of Muslims in the UK are not nasty people, and they aren't foreign.


You really haven't grasped the nettle yet, have you?

It is Islam, and all of its adherents, that is the problem.

I do not need to label Islam as 'some kind of nasty foreign culture' for its precepts and for its central tenets to speak for themselves as such, and more vocally. Quite without any labelling assistance on my part.

You're on dangerous ground, Steve. Your egalitarian approach is negated, rendered impotent, by the very phenomenon you are seeking to combat with such kindly values as you espouse.

If you are not prepared to offer condemnation in place of understanding (which Islam cannot reciprocate, on foot of its very tenets), then I think you have made yourself entirely useless in a debate which Islam will continue to make into a war.

Best,
Styrer

539. Sharia fiasco

Comment #126373 by Styrer- on February 13, 2008 at 4:55 am

Having read through many of the comments made on this thread, I've decided why Pat Condell could never be a true spokesman, though a significant contributor, for the rationalist movement.

I don't believe for any one minute that Mr Condell is anything other than an irate evidence based reasoner, who articulartly and sometimes with humour, makes many salient points.

His delivery can be misconstrued and appears to sometimes lead to the kind of ill-considered response which dilutes the type of considered discussion needed, in order to resolve some very sensitive and possibly inflammatory issues.


Having read your comments several times over, I must say: bollocks.

So you are proposing that 'considered discussion' aimed at 'resolving some very sensitive and possibly inflammatory issues' is going to do the trick, as opposed to flat-out condemnation, a la Condell, of the murderous intent of all too many Islam followers?

Have you not heard of the dangers of propitiation? Of appeasement? Your 'softly, softly' approach says much more about your own character than it does about the unmoving and immovable tenets of Islam and its followers' intention to convert us, subjugate us or kill us.

You're a nicer bloke then me. And a more dangerous one, by insisting on your expiatory shite.

Best,
Styrer

540. Sharia fiasco

Comment #126368 by Styrer- on February 13, 2008 at 4:40 am

Look - I am strongly against any introduction of new religious-based law in the UK; in fact, I want any existing laws of this nature removed. What I am against is demonisation of a group.


Are you against demonisation of a group at all costs?

Surely not.

What the hell are you saying, in fact? That a hate-filled, sociopathic, homicidally driven group cannot possibly be 'demonised', because it's 'not cricket'?

I can't accept your conclusion to the above post. There are some groups which it is our moral obligation to 'demonise'. Islam-followers intent on killing you and me form one such group.

Best,
Styrer

541. Hitchens and Boteach Debate on God

Comment #126358 by Styrer- on February 13, 2008 at 3:58 am

104. Comment #126325 by Paul42 on February 13, 2008 at 1:44 am

Ooooff...

My point stands I think Styrer.

Whether god exists or not, or whether YOUR version of god exists, or what KIND of believer you are; the fact remains that children are being mutilated against their will. Jewish or islamic. Africa or the USA...

The animatronic "rabbi" in this debate couldn't even define in a coherent sense what he meant by "god". But he can tell you the chapters of (his version) of a "holy" book that mandates circumcision. Black and white, on paper, in a book on his desk.

Most believers have a very subjective definition of their god and how it applies to them. This gives "wriggle room" in a debate; ie "that's a good argument but it doesn't apply to MY god".

We cannot disprove god.
But we can say for sure that certain practises are immoral and need to be actively campaigned against.

In my humble opinion circumcision of male and female children is the big one.

Love.


Fine words, and you'll have no disagreement from me in stating them.

But, again, you have not given the slightest nod to the inescapable fact that it is both the definition of and the belief in gods which are causing such atrocity.

The effects are palpable, and appalling, of course. But until you grant authority to the power that faith holds in determining all of this, and until you start attacking that, then I'm afraid I am going to continue to find your comments very much at the margins here, however well-intentioned they may be.

Best,
Styrer

542. Why Darwin matters

Comment #126322 by Styrer- on February 13, 2008 at 1:32 am

I just tried to play along. Came up with a whole paragraph of inanity.

Then I realised it wasn't so far away from the stuff I'm normally pasted for.

Too depressed to continue...

:)

Best,
Styrer

543. Why Darwin matters

Comment #126314 by Styrer- on February 13, 2008 at 1:11 am

As for wooter guy, if you get him, as if you will evolsify him immediately. To me trolling, swearing, insulting will not do any good to undermine him.


Oh great, a new wanker in the mix.

Why are you guys so hugely incapable of constructing sentences in English?

If this were all, and if I had a clue where your poor suffering words were headed, I might then lend a hand.

But 'evolsify'? I draw the line. My naysayers may have anticipated me here:

Fuck off. Come back when you can communicate in English.

I'm not holding my breath.

Styrer

544. Hitchens and Boteach Debate on God

Comment #126308 by Styrer- on February 13, 2008 at 12:51 am

I feel that we can argue and debate forever on the definition or existence of a god or gods. What religious people must be taken to task over are their practises and attitudes. Especially to this uncomfortable subject.


What a wonderfully tickly little puppy you are, Paul42. And a counfounded stupid one, sorry to say.

Do you not realise that those practises and attitudes you cite are directly and intricately linked with 'definition and existence of a god or gods'?

Surely you've got the point of many of the members here by now? The dreadful consequences of faith in religion take horrible effect, as you note - witness severing of foreskins from penises in boys, clitorises and labia from girls.

Get with the programme. Get your cause and effect sorted. You might prove useful if you do.

Best,
Styrer

545. Sharia fiasco

Comment #126303 by Styrer- on February 13, 2008 at 12:23 am

Comment #126299 by Fanusi Khiyal on February 13, 2008 at 12:02 am


Maybe it is just me, but I kind of feel that telling members of a culture that has been present in a country for centuries (and when the majority of that culture live here peacefully) to "piss off" is ... just a bit rude (to put it politely).



Well, actually, about half of them want Shariah law instituted, if you look at the polls. And I see no problem whatsoever in giving them a swift kick out the door, back into the Middle Eastern hellhole of their choice. Again, why should the Muslims get to wreck everything from the Christians, Jews, Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists, Taoists, agnostics, atheists, & anyone else who doesn't belong to their lunatic faith?

N.B.: The original point was about 'all Muslims who want Shariah;'.



What we have achieved since those times is wonderful, and we need to persuade others that this is the right way too.



Yes, but we will achieve nothing by the whole damn business of apologising and bending over backwards for Islam. Our first issue is survival, and that means getting rid of those Muslims who wish to destroy Western Civilisation.



Have you any idea of the scale of the bloodbath that some predicted would happen?



Yes, actually. I grew up there, though I'm not South African myself. And put this in perspective, if you will. South Africa has a murder rate higher than that of Iraq right now. Chew on that one for a while.

It's one of the reasons I am a little fed up with those who prattle "At least Saddam kept order". I assume they're also against the fall of Apartheid.


Hear, hear.

Many here do not understand that anger is an energy.

Dennett is one such example, unfortunately, if we are to read his words in all sincerity in his latest piece here.

My only addition is: you should have gone further.

Best,
Styrer

546. Why Darwin matters

Comment #126298 by Styrer- on February 12, 2008 at 11:03 pm

Styrer,

How very Dennett of you :)


Really? Oh fuck...

Best,
Styrer
:)

547. Charles Simonyi Professorship in the Public Understanding of Science

Comment #126295 by Styrer- on February 12, 2008 at 10:42 pm

I have the honour of having suggested Pinker first in this thread. :)

Steven Pinker has the brains, the charisma and the looks Charles Simonyi's 'manifesto' seeks and implies.

His area of inquiry re-affirms the primacy of humans as the proper study of humankind in a way physicists, mathematicians and chemists may miss.

Pinker's accessibility of language is similar to Richard's own. He simplifies what others complicate. This is the rarest of gifts.

No doubt in my mind about this.

My only doubt is - would Oxford be prepared to pay for him and his uprooting from Harvard?

He would surely jump at the chance to step up a peg to Oxford, in any case.

Best,
Styrer

548. Why Darwin matters

Comment #126292 by Styrer- on February 12, 2008 at 10:16 pm

Wooter

What are you doing, old son?

Please tell me - and may God strike you down if you do not give me a truthful account - when you last doubted the existence of God.

If never, I am not sure why you repeat visits to a site which is known for its anti-theistic and atheistic membership.

Go on, son. Tell me. Are you having doubts? Are they what bring you to us, painful as the experience must be? PM me if you want. Let's get to the bottom of this.

I am here to help.

Best,
Styrer

549. Murder plot against Danish cartoonist

Comment #126280 by Styrer- on February 12, 2008 at 9:30 pm

28. Comment #126095 by al-rawandi on February 12, 2008 at 12:53 pm

Styrer,


No.


Why not? But... I clearly ask too much.

You have evidently been educated to treat ideas which oppose your own in the same way as overinflated bumblers like gr8hands; you flounder as he does in naysaying ideas you cannot quite grasp; and you give spark to the flame of your own betrayal of rationality by refusing to utter anything beyond a wholly unqualified 'no' in response to a proposition deserving of, at least some, consideration.

What a disgrace you are to the import of this site's primary message.

Styrer

550. Murder plot against Danish cartoonist

Comment #126088 by Styrer- on February 12, 2008 at 12:52 pm

I wonder, when on reading this, and particularly Kurt Westergaard's plaintively poignant words: 'I have turned fear into anger and indignation', if Dennett will wish to renounce his contemptible statement in his latest piece published here: 'There is no need, yet, for anger.'

I wonder if those who were flat out against my criticism of his words in an earlier thread may similarly wish to reconsider their positions.

My thoughts are with Kurt and his family.

Best,
Styrer

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