501. Richard Dawkins and Alister McGrath

Comment #49079 by Logicel on June 10, 2007 at 8:15 am

Instead of encouraging children to embrace critical thinking, why don't we just encourage a mandatory class in critical consumerism instead?

502. Richard Dawkins and Alister McGrath

Comment #49078 by Logicel on June 10, 2007 at 8:11 am

Yup, Dianelos is a gifted salesman--convince your prospective customer that they need to clean that little space behind the radiator with a special cleanser, and then hone in with your product.

Theism is to take care of that pesky little problem of human consciousness, while Christianity is the specific product for the correct and lasting solution.

503. Americans believe in both evolution, creationism: poll

Comment #49076 by Logicel on June 10, 2007 at 8:03 am

blueollie, Informative post and thanks for the links.

504. In U.S., faith is never far from politics

Comment #49072 by Logicel on June 10, 2007 at 7:39 am

...all appeared on a podium with the aging Billy Graham.
________

In full-blown nitpicker mode, I consider aged to better describe Graham than aging

Graham offered spiritual guidance to many American presidents but his distinctly apolitical approach also evokes another era, when faith and politics did not publicly mix to the extent they do today.
________

As a kid growing up, I remember regular folks being concerned that JFK would abuse his presidential position by foisting Catholicism on all, to which he had responded with a very eloquent speech about that religion has no role in determining governmental policy. It seems centuries ago rather than just several decades.

505. Richard Dawkins and Alister McGrath

Comment #49040 by Logicel on June 10, 2007 at 4:10 am

Dianelos wrote: Every single thing we experience, including our experience of physical phenomena, is caused by God.
__________

Fundamentalists sniff glue, while Theologians apparently snort cocaine.

I still commend Dianelos style of calmly and without ever resorting to ad homs of any kind--it almost makes me want to inject his God-soaked world view in my veins so I can be less snarky in debating. However, being the cynic I am, I suppose his style can more aptly be attributed to his excellent business acumen rather than his theism.

Apparently, commerce and its need to conduct oneself in a trustworthy manner in order to keep and grow a customer base, was/is a powerful factor in promoting civilization.

506. Richard Dawkins and Alister McGrath

Comment #49037 by Logicel on June 10, 2007 at 4:00 am

456. Comment #48811 by Dr Benway on June 9, 2007 at 5:42 am
avatarthe great teapot:

If conciousness is supernatural why does it follow my body around like a stalker?

LOL. That's worthy of a signature line.
__________

Yup, please, teapot is great, make that your signature line--if you do want to do that, do you know how to?

507. We of little faith

Comment #49025 by Logicel on June 10, 2007 at 3:22 am

And I find it equally amusing that so many atheists need to perceive and identify "religion" where it does not exist.

508. We of little faith

Comment #49014 by Logicel on June 10, 2007 at 2:40 am

And this spirit of mine was the bane of the nuns which instructed me. Every unsuccessful attempt on their part to knock my spiritedness out of me--that is, my grasp that my humanity was in itself whole, with no need of a God creator to give it meaning--was met by my successful musings that I was part of something bigger that my own self, that is, nature.

Also, because of a uncle of mine was able to bring home children books from his publishing job, I was able to gather strength against my daily Catholic indoctrination from reading among others, fairy tales written by the Grimm brothers.

I realized that if the Grimm brothers collection of fairy tales were possible, and these tales were clearly regarded as myths fabricated by humans, then it was very likely that the particular creator god myth about which I was being taught was of the same ilk. I also adored the fact that humans were able to be creative, and I wrote fiction quite young. The nuns hated my writing fiction, as God had the monopoly on all things creative. They ridiculed my writing talent and accused me of plagiarism, including not submitting an entry of mine to a national writing contest. All that accomplished for me was to add to my secret and growing data base that religion and belief in the supernatural often exhibited itself in ugly and cruelly oppressive ways.

509. We of little faith

Comment #49011 by Logicel on June 10, 2007 at 2:01 am

Déjà Fu wrote: Logicel:
You sound a bit like Sam Harris there. The word "spirituality" infers that the ancient
mind/body problem hasn't been resolved. It's a horrible word that gives rise to
all kinds of crap and is worth no more than a tooth-grinding cringe when you hear it.
Perhaps it's best simply put aside - especially the completely wierd term, "human
spirtuality" which invites comparison to "cabbage spirituality" and quite a variety
of other species...

I'd ask, if "spirituality" simply means feeling an integral part of the cosmos,
right down to sunshine and your next breath, whatever made you feel otherwise?
My answer would be your religious and disconnected education that somehow
implied that you were madly separate from it. That includes killing animals
and thinking differently of them than of yourself, btw.
_________

In previous discussions about using the words spirituality and soul, I was able to see that those words--whose use often stirs up criticism from other atheists--are words that have been so bastardized by theists that they are useless to anyone except to theists. Though I still throw them out in this forum, I am careful not to present myself as being spiritual or possessing a soul when discussing topics with theists, for it is impossible for them to conclude anything else except that I am more like them than I realize. And I am not, I have no belief in the supernatural at all.

However, when growing up as a closet atheist--in the sense that I knew I was, but needed to keep it to myself--one of the many bits of evidence in support of my stance that I amassed secretly was that I was obviously a part of nature. I had the good fortune of spending my childhood summers at a summer shack near the Atlantic ocean where I was allowed to run around bare-chested and bare-footed up and down immense sand dunes. I have always felt drawn and close to nature and other species--I would befriend stray cats, birds, dogs, collect plants, rocks--and this bond allowed me to not get suckered into accepting supernatural beliefs which were relentlessly presented to my captive mind during my childhood. In brief, spirituality for me is the sensation of enjoyment which comes from utilizing fully the realization that one is part of nature. This realization came to me when I was a mere tot, way before I really got my science toes wet.

As for the mind/body dichotomy being resolved, I regard understanding of how the mind and body works together has a long way to go before our understanding becomes substantial. One beef I have with mysticism, is that many brands do focus on the body/physical aspects as being negative. Also, western civilization focuses on the physical life as being negative, greedy, lustful, lazy, etc. For me, being balanced between the mind and body, between rationality and emotion, constitutes spirituality--oh, I can just sense the gnashing of teeth all over cyberspace because of that disgusting word.

To be spirited, is to have confidence in your wholeness as a human, not to use this perspective to isolate and throne yourself on a higher plateau than other species, but to rejoice in your humanity without regarding yourself as a fallen angel that needs to be punished for its corporeal part. And that is why I detest that the theists have made spirituality a word which makes humans feel dirty/imperfect/uncomfortable in their physicality.

510. Can we really learn to love people who aren't like us?

Comment #49001 by Logicel on June 10, 2007 at 1:21 am

Peter Hearty, Thanks for your blog link. Excellent and snarky paraphrasing of platitudes.

511. Dobson and John MacArthur fantasize about the downfall of America

Comment #48906 by Logicel on June 9, 2007 at 12:43 pm

phasmagigas wrote: well after food consumption sexual desire/requirements is perhaps central to all peoples motivations.

and

bluebird wrote: A quote from a local dude:
"The closer I get to my tomb,
the less I care who sleeps with whom".

___________________________________

Being inspired by both quotes I have come up with:

The closer I get to the grave,

The more I want to stuff my face with food rather than sleep with Dave.

512. We of little faith

Comment #48904 by Logicel on June 9, 2007 at 12:28 pm

Bonzai wrote: I find the kind of barren world of rationality advocated by the likes of Mind_Rebel frightening and it represents a complete ignorance of human nature. If one wants to understand humans as a species she has to engage the subjects on their own terms. This should be basic to anyone claims to be an adherent of the scientific method.
_______

Being an artist and a writer, I fully embrace the human imagination. I also view emotion--as shown by neuroscience studies--to be the fuel to ignite our rationality to achieve solid results. Obviously, the imagination that was required to initiate myths for various reasons--for explanatory purpose, or societal cohesion--became trapped within specific religious dogma which are present today.

It does seem that Mind_Rebel, in his admirable desire/efforts to not be trapped within a gray-walled prison of dogma and faith, fails to see that elements that dogma 'prostitutes' to its advantage for its continuing its noxious memes, are also wonderful aspects of the human experience and can be harnessed to improve the human lot a great deal.

As Anne Druyan, Carl Sagan's widow, has said, human spirituality, needs to be wrested back from the theocrats. Spirituality can be defined also in a secular sense, but the faith-heads have fully adopted it as their own bastard child.

513. We of little faith

Comment #48890 by Logicel on June 9, 2007 at 11:03 am

Mind_Rebel wrote: No disrespect, but Buddhism is pretty stupid, and for a religion that aims to dissolve the ego, they tend attract some real egomaniacs.
___________

Similar in the way that health food stores attract unhealthy people.

Reincarnation is a part of what religion then, if not buddhism? Hinduism? Was Buddha a reformer of Hinduism like Jesus was of Judaism?

I consider Buddhism to be both a philosophy and a religion. Since philosophy for the most part leaves me cold, I have been little attracted to that aspect of Buddhism. The focus on that we are all one--though I do not disagree in principle, we came from stardust and will return as stardust--can be achieved by studying science and not just Buddhism. I prefer the study of science.

I have been doing yoga postures and breathing for decades, because I find them fun and effective in stretching muscle and keeping me limber. I also embrace the golden rule so touted by Christianity as a rule of their making. However, I am neither a practicing Christian nor a Hindu.

If Ms. Blackmore had flirted with new age religion in the past, it would suggest that she is receptive to some aspect of the power of the mind as being able to transcend the shackles of matter. I think that Sam Harris is also open to this possibility.

I do agree with Mind_Rebel that buddhism as embraced by westerners, is an often odd spectacle of their feeding their egos, instead of suppressing them. I also find the Buddhist training riddles of which Mind_Rebel so adeptly parodied to be tiresome and silly.

514. We of little faith

Comment #48884 by Logicel on June 9, 2007 at 10:36 am

pewkatchoo wrote: Bouwe, it was not zen buddhism which drove the kamikaze, it was militant shinto and emperor worship.

___________

I read that many pilots were coerced to do the kamikaze flights because the Japanese authorities threatened their families in various ways.

515. Can we really learn to love people who aren't like us?

Comment #48776 by Logicel on June 9, 2007 at 3:23 am

Great post, Corylus

516. Teaching assistant quit in protest at Harry Potter

Comment #48760 by Logicel on June 9, 2007 at 2:16 am

How oppressive this Christian's life is: she must be constantly on the alert for committing grievances against her faith-based beliefs. She probably doesn't even take Sunday off from doing this, not a day of rest from this self-induced prison of fear and loathing in which she houses her mind and emotions.

I regard this court case as being important, as it is providing an opportunity to set a crucial precedent regarding what the relevant legislation really means.

517. We of little faith

Comment #48758 by Logicel on June 9, 2007 at 2:10 am

Spot on, Ms. Blackmore! Excellent article.

518. Can we really learn to love people who aren't like us?

Comment #48754 by Logicel on June 9, 2007 at 1:44 am

3. Comment #48749 by Logicel on June 9, 2007 at 1:24 am
Religion, often as the outer clothing of ethnicity,...
______

Excellent phrase.

_______________________________________

Maybe not. Perhaps it is more accurate to say instead: that ethnicity, often as the outer clothing of religion,...

519. Can we really learn to love people who aren't like us?

Comment #48752 by Logicel on June 9, 2007 at 1:40 am

But the urgent one is: can we, believer and nonbeliever, join hands to become agents for peace against those who seek to globalise war?
_______

If more people of faith come out as Rabbi Sacks has done and criticize the division-sowing elements of religion, we may stand a better chance. And he has astutely identified what the core argument that atheists are presenting in their recent, popular writings--that beliefs without evidence are the problem. He is also market savvy; he has correctly analyzed why this rash of atheist writings are being bought and gobbled up.

Though I do not understand, Rabbi Sacks, being a person of faith, proposes how religious believers, who embrace the notion of belief in belief without evidence as being virtuous, are going to let go of the divisive elements of religion while retaining their faith which feeds such division?

520. Can we really learn to love people who aren't like us?

Comment #48749 by Logicel on June 9, 2007 at 1:24 am

Religion, often as the outer clothing of ethnicity,...
______

Excellent phrase.

521. Can we really learn to love people who aren't like us?

Comment #48748 by Logicel on June 9, 2007 at 1:20 am

Richard Dawkins wrote: He deserves praise for inviting his own congregation, and also Christian and Muslim ones, to stop being so smug and wake up to the dangers of faith.
________

I agree.

522. Chimps Spread the News

Comment #48747 by Logicel on June 9, 2007 at 1:02 am

"The more individuals that learn[ed] the task, the more of a tradition it would become," Spiteri says.
_________

Science is traditional however scientists are not the preferred role model, but celebrities, whether they be sports, entertainment, etc., grab the average attention instead. In part, scientists are too focused--understandingly so--on doing science; they do not focus on cultivating being appealing to people, other then presenting the solid and valid content of their work.

Another successful role model has been the religious one which is also traditional. I likened religious leaders, especially the oddly dressed Pope to be the equivalent of an entertainment celebrity. What scientist--at least in her/his right mind--could compete with the papal regalia?

I wonder if there is any status equivalent to celebrity in monkey communities? Some studies have shown that celebrities appeal because they are evidence of health (groomed, spiffy appearance), happiness, and success. How ironic, that one of the few hard-core scientists who has grabbed public attention is Stephen Hawking, a quadripelegic in a motorized wheel chair.

523. Richard Dawkins and Alister McGrath

Comment #48688 by Logicel on June 8, 2007 at 5:37 pm

Folks, it is my humble opinion that there is a troll in our presence, and it ain't sweet Zwingli.

If there is a series of short, vague, suspiciously meaningless posts, I start suspecting they are the work of a troll and stop responding to them so the little troll doesn't get fat/satiated with the satisfaction of trolling--we wouldn't want the troll to get indigestion from overfeeding, now would we? And I flag them as trolls.

524. Richard Dawkins and Alister McGrath

Comment #48678 by Logicel on June 8, 2007 at 5:24 pm

Bonsai, It is an odd feeling for me to actually read comments by theists and comment as an atheist. I have no identity whatsoever as being an atheist. Theists embrace and incorporate their theism into their identities; I do not do that with my atheism. I focus on the natural world and its wonderful reality--that is where my identity is derived, as a member of a highly evolved and successful species, sharing the earth with all the other highly evolved species.

Communists and fascists are similar to theists in the regard that religites embrace their non-evidential religious dogma, no matter how cherry-picked and personalized it may be, and regard it as constituting a large part of who they are.

525. Richard Dawkins and Alister McGrath

Comment #48666 by Logicel on June 8, 2007 at 5:10 pm

I have no idea, as I do not regard Zwingli as an enemy of the state.

526. Richard Dawkins and Alister McGrath

Comment #48660 by Logicel on June 8, 2007 at 5:05 pm

Zwingli wrote: Athiesm lead directly to the labelling of christians as "enemies of the state"
___


Does any non-theist reading this thread regard Zwingli as an enemy of the state?

527. Richard Dawkins and Alister McGrath

Comment #48656 by Logicel on June 8, 2007 at 4:55 pm

BAEOZ wrote: The only commonality is atheism.
________

Others have pointed out that it is unfortunate that atheism even needs to be mentioned. It only needs to be mentioned because of the existence of theism. However, in reality what unites non-theists/atheists is their focus on evidential beliefs and using the scientific method and the body of scientific knowledge as tools and means to keep humanity advancing and socially evolving, not our lacking belief in a non-evidential belief of the religious genre.

Happily, I have lived--and still do--in a very secular community for about 10 years, and nobody talks about atheism. We focus on evidential beliefs. PERIOD. I wish that for the entire world someday.

528. Richard Dawkins and Alister McGrath

Comment #48644 by Logicel on June 8, 2007 at 4:31 pm

I told a lie, here's two more just for Zwingli:

http://www.asktheatheists.com/questions/37_why_do_atheists_insist_on_trying_to_rationally_understand_god

http://www.asktheatheists.com/questions/32_why_do_atheists_delude_themselves_in_regarding_themselves_as_being_entirely_rational

529. Richard Dawkins and Alister McGrath

Comment #48642 by Logicel on June 8, 2007 at 4:28 pm

These two are the last two rounds of atheist ammunition from my internet machine gun and then I am going to bed:

http://www.asktheatheists.com/questions/10_is_atheism_a_religion

http://www.asktheatheists.com/questions/45_what_role_does_science_play_in_atheism

530. Richard Dawkins and Alister McGrath

Comment #48639 by Logicel on June 8, 2007 at 4:20 pm

Yet another relevant answer for Zwingli:

http://www.asktheatheists.com/questions/25_why_do_atheists_not_accept_that_it_is_the_secular_world_which_causes_evil_to_happen


It is amazing how the same questions are asked again and again and again by theists. Though it is great for atheists to answer in their own words, I now know how it must feel for Jevovah's witnesses machine gunning out their ton of leaflets to non-believers. See, I just PROVED that atheists are religious. LOL.

531. Richard Dawkins and Alister McGrath

Comment #48637 by Logicel on June 8, 2007 at 4:15 pm

Yes, some more relevant answers for Zwingli:

http://www.asktheatheists.com/questions/30_how_do_you_explain_the_miracles_in_the_bible

http://www.asktheatheists.com/questions/22_why_do_atheists_not_accept_that_the_bible_the_word_of_god_is_proof_of_his_existence

532. Richard Dawkins and Alister McGrath

Comment #48633 by Logicel on June 8, 2007 at 4:12 pm

Zwingli, for your reading pleasure:

http://www.asktheatheists.com/questions/40_many_atheists_criticise_faith_but_isnt_atheism_also_based_on_faith

http://www.asktheatheists.com/questions/34_why_do_atheists_not_realize_that_they_are_just_as_fundamentalist_as_the_religious_believers_who_they_label_accordingly

533. Richard Dawkins and Alister McGrath

Comment #48625 by Logicel on June 8, 2007 at 3:53 pm

Zwingli quoted: USA_Limey: I cannot stress enough how much I despise the likes of McGrath, I will say again for those who missed it in a previous post: I actually have more respect for the fundamentalists at least they are honest.
_______

Logcel: I was unable to look at this video of McGrath longer than a few seconds before throwing up in my own mouth. Same for D. Robertson in terms of reading his posts. I also regard moderates to be, well, disgusting. I think they are the big problem, actually, even though they do not fly planes into buildings.

However, my dear Zwingli, you left this bit out in my comment: Dianelos is not only polite and calm, unlike D. Robertson, he is consistent in his delivery of his religious views, no matter how tortured and non-evidential they may be. He also responded to your question, though it took longer than you wanted. And he is, after all, a human being.

Oh, please now, give the big bad atheist some credit!

534. Richard Dawkins and Alister McGrath

Comment #48621 by Logicel on June 8, 2007 at 3:44 pm

And Zwingli, not all atheists agree with USA_Limey and I, some want to team up with moderates to help stop the extremists. I have no problem with that, but if any moderate speaks his/her religious nonsense to me I will most likely have a go at criticizing their beliefs.

535. Richard Dawkins and Alister McGrath

Comment #48618 by Logicel on June 8, 2007 at 3:33 pm

Zwingli wrote: And I resent having christianity associated with people who fly planes into buildings.
______

Do you also resent the association with Christianity with witch burning, the torture and murder done by the Inquisition, the many that die because Christianity resists proper and effective sex education and the issuing of condoms? Or is that not the Christianity which you practice? You probably like all the other Christians cherry pick to your stomach's content, until you are bursting with some revolting hodgepodge you can call all your very own truth which is really just a load of personalized BOLLOCKS!

536. Richard Dawkins and Alister McGrath

Comment #48617 by Logicel on June 8, 2007 at 3:23 pm

USA_Limey, Commenting is not possible; we wanted to keep it as simple and easy to maintain as possible. However, there is contact info at asktheatheists.com, and also a forum thread here at Dawkins.net:

http://richarddawkins.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16395

bitbutter designed the website and has recently added the ability to search the answers--at first it was just the questions. It is now easy to retrieve relevant info in order to aid in any debating with theists fairly quickly.

537. Richard Dawkins and Alister McGrath

Comment #48613 by Logicel on June 8, 2007 at 3:13 pm

Zwingli, regarding the bible and morality:

http://www.asktheatheists.com/questions/22_why_do_atheists_not_accept_that_the_bible_the_word_of_god_is_proof_of_his_existence

http://www.asktheatheists.com/questions/30_how_do_you_explain_the_miracles_in_the_bible

http://www.asktheatheists.com/questions/7_are_atheists_immoral

538. Richard Dawkins and Alister McGrath

Comment #48612 by Logicel on June 8, 2007 at 3:07 pm

Zwingli, Dogma, whether it is secular or religions, is the culprit. And neither USA_Limey nor I have any intention of doing anything else except VERBALLING criticizing--however harsh--McGrath and moderates. EDIT: In fact, you can be rest assured that I would avoid McGrath like the plague.

Below is an excellent video on the dangers of dogma, including the ones which Hitler, Pol Pot, and Stalin embraced:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmsis-motuY

539. Richard Dawkins and Alister McGrath

Comment #48609 by Logicel on June 8, 2007 at 3:00 pm

Zwingli wrote: And I resent having christianity associated with people who fly planes into buildings.
______

Then sue me. Or let go of your non-evidential, faith-based beliefs.

And reality/truth is determined by evidence.

540. Richard Dawkins and Alister McGrath

Comment #48601 by Logicel on June 8, 2007 at 1:52 pm

Zwingli, Futhermore, many atheists from all over the world who contribute at this site were raised as Christians, so they have a first-hand grasp of what Christianity is.

541. Richard Dawkins and Alister McGrath

Comment #48596 by Logicel on June 8, 2007 at 1:47 pm

Zwingli, and:

http://www.asktheatheists.com/questions/43_why_do_atheists_not_take_theology_seriously

542. Richard Dawkins and Alister McGrath

Comment #48594 by Logicel on June 8, 2007 at 1:39 pm

Zwingli,

http://www.asktheatheists.com/questions/31_why_do_atheists_regard_religious_extremism_as_being_representative_for_the_majority_of_religious_believers

http://www.asktheatheists.com/questions/17_why_do_atheists_feel_it_is_necessary_to_speak_against_and_criticize_religious_beliefs

http://www.asktheatheists.com/questions/44_why_do_atheists_often_focus_on_criticizing_christianity_instead_of_other_religions

543. In Saudi Arabia, a view from behind the veil

Comment #48592 by Logicel on June 8, 2007 at 1:26 pm

Rtambree wrote: Now there's a class action in every sense of the word.

http://www.earthsgreatestlawsuit.org/

I had a ball filling out a claim against my childhood Catholic parish!!! I am asking 10,000 bucks in damages.

544. 60 SECONDS: Richard Dawkins

Comment #48589 by Logicel on June 8, 2007 at 1:22 pm

short and sweet.

545. Christopher Hitchens: Religion Poisons Everything

Comment #48587 by Logicel on June 8, 2007 at 1:20 pm

Yup, I always learn something from Hitchens:

Here's an excerpt on Bayard Rustin from Wikipedia: He counseled Martin Luther King, Jr. on the techniques of nonviolent resistance. Rustin was openly gay [1] and advocated on behalf of gay and lesbian causes in the latter part of his career.

And this excerpt on A. Philip Randolph from Wikipedia: Randolph also helped Rustin and Martin Luther King Jr. to organize the March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom on August 28, 1963. As the U.S. civil rights movement gained momentum in the early 1960s and came to the forefront of the nation's consciousness, his rich baritone voice was often heard on television news programs addressing the nation on behalf of African-Americans engaged in the struggle for voting rights and an end to discrimination in public accommodations.

546. Richard Dawkins and Alister McGrath

Comment #48575 by Logicel on June 8, 2007 at 12:34 pm

USA_Limey wrote: What exactly is this more 'elegant' version of belief you speak of? I think you have been fooled by the likes of Mcgrath here who would have you believe that there is such a thing, that somehow they are 'better' than the Creationist who thinks the world is 6,000 years old. Less dangerous, yes certainly. But more 'elegant'... no I don't think so since if they cannot be Deists and must subscribe to one of the religions they are little better than pagan snake charmers and sun worshippers. In the case of Christianity, worse.

I cannot stress enough how much I despise the likes of McGrath, I will say again for those who missed it in a previous post: I actually have more respect for the fundamentalists at least they are honest.
_______

I was unable to look at this video of McGrath longer than a few seconds before throwing up in my own mouth. Same for D. Robertson in terms of reading his posts. I also regard moderates to be, well, disgusting. I think they are the big problem, actually, even though they do not fly planes into buildings.

As for the 'elegance' of certain theistic viewpoints, I was not using that adjective to imply that such 'elegance' deserves any serious consideration, just that I wanted to be familiar with that kind of ploy, so I can answer theists questions better at asktheatheists.com that just got started about a week ago. Regard my dalliance with Dianelos as a means to take a crash course in that kind of view, so I am better prepared for the sinuous path of slithering logic if presented, and to cut through it.

I regard both yours and alorvin's approach which is to focus on the form in which religious beliefs are shaped to be admirable.

Dianelos is not only polite and calm, unlike D. Robertson, he is consistent in his delivery of his religious views, no matter how tortured and non-evidential they may be. He also responded to your question, though it took longer than you wanted. And he is, after all, a human being.

547. Religion and Child Abuse

Comment #48570 by Logicel on June 8, 2007 at 12:16 pm

newatheist wrote: Hey Logicel…

no child should have a file which states that they are of a particular religion. The religion of their parents can be noted, of course. (emphasis mine)


Um, why? <:-O
___

Mainly because I would want that my children have atheists for parents be listed on their personal information. But, as I think more about it, I really can't come up with a good reason why the religious or the lack of religious affiliation of the parent should be listed unless to mollify the parents.

548. Religion and Child Abuse

Comment #48567 by Logicel on June 8, 2007 at 12:05 pm

I wrote: Was Biz allowed to shoot his real gun when a kid? Was he allowed to drink alcohol when a kid? Were his parents allowed to beat him to a pulp when he was a kid? Was he allowed to buy cigarettes when he a was kid? Were his parents allowed to deny him medical treatment because of religious beliefs when he was a kid?

BIZ responded: Where in the world did this come from? It's totally irrelevant and totally inappropriate. Why would you assume that because I own two guns and enjoy shooting that my parents, whom I love dearly, were abusive and irresponsible? This kind of garbage just isn't necessary.

_______

BIZ, THEY ARE RHETORICAL QUESTIONS. Because the answer is of course NOT. Damg, my opinion of your intelligence just tubed.

If a child is already protected from such abusive behavior, it is only reasonable to also protect a child from being labeled as a full-card-carrying member of a religion before he/she is too old to decide for themselves. I also suggested that comparative religion be taught to all children, including ones from secular families. A religious family can teach their religion to their child, but just not label that child as a member of that religion--it is unjust and unfair.

549. Richard Dawkins and Alister McGrath

Comment #48558 by Logicel on June 8, 2007 at 11:29 am

steve99 wrote: But what I trying to do is figure out how people think differently from me work.
_____

I wanted to know the more 'elegant' version of belief so I am better equip to answer theist's questions without getting sidetracked by the elegance. And no way was I going to go the way of David Robertson or Plantinga, so Dianelos has served that purpose for me.

Some posters here are hard, others are softer, and some are right in the middle in their approach in communicating with theists. All I know, is that I learn stuff each and every day, and as long as that continues, I will keep reading and posting here. I have learned a lot in the six months that I have frequented this site. Each one of us learns in their own way. Also, I regard the honesty at this site, in terms of expressing anger and disgust directed towards religious beliefs, to be refreshing.

550. Atheism is the absence of belief

Comment #48555 by Logicel on June 8, 2007 at 11:16 am

pewkatchoo, I hear you. We all need to be smart and cautious. However, as more and more of us become openly critical--as one poster here said--it will be harder for us to become targets, because there will just be too many of us to track down--strength in numbers kind of protection.