551. The Out Campaign

Comment #60022 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on July 31, 2007 at 1:46 pm

Hi Guys!

On a similar (but different) note, I've been busy on youtube working on this project. Please swing by and give us your support:-)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELfkyGY6MG4

This is the video we are promoting :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaZ4u-kY9yE

Tomorrow is the deadline, and my bad for not mentioning it sooner.

552. Kenya: The Death of Religion And Rise of Atheism in the West

Comment #56607 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on July 16, 2007 at 2:17 pm

I think he may mean these guys : http://www.e-parl.net/eparliament/general.do?action=contact. I've actually had a bit to do with them and fired off the following note :

Hi Guys!

Please tell me that the homophobic moron writing this article is not actually associated with this e-parliament?

http://richarddawkins.net/article,1421,Kenya-The-Death-of-Religion-And-Rise-of-Atheism-in-the-West,Peter-Odoyo-AllAfricacom#56597

This is not my idea of global governance not by a long shot.

Regards,

Brian Coughlan

553. Don't Mince Words: The London Car-Bomb Plot Was Designed to Kill Women

Comment #54639 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on July 8, 2007 at 10:06 am

Phew ... interesting posts. Xenocratic, enjoyed your posts very much. I too had a tussle with Fanusi, becoming incoherent and fairly nasty in the course of the exchange. You've done a much better job of explaining the position, and although you've remained articulate throughout, you've pretty much sucumbed to the rage. It's hard not to.

Goatboy36, I owe you an apology which I will tender here, I'm sure you know why:-) You're posts in the exchange mentioned above, made a substantial impression on me, and I have often thought if them in the intervening weeks. I hope you'll get a buzz in knowing your efforts in that exchange have born some small fruit:-)

554. Won't anyone stand up for God?

Comment #54582 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on July 8, 2007 at 12:20 am

What these commentators always seem to miss is that both sets of outrages (religious and secular) spring from the same source, irrationality.

We are not claiming Stalin was a God, and this is exactly the point, as soon as any human system rises above scrutiny and criticism is has the potential to go off the rails. Religion, communism, New Labour ... whatever.

Thus the entire thrust of such an argument is futile, adding nothing to the the question of wether religion is "real" or not, and utterly missing the point of the books it is critiquing.

555. Don't Know Much Biology

Comment #48242 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on June 7, 2007 at 7:25 am

12. Comment #48235 by Hip_Priest on June 7, 2007 at 6:42 am

Over half of all Americans don't know that the Earth orbits the Sun once a year


I don't believe that for one second.

Well I wouldn't go that far, but I do find it fairly astounding. Anyone know where this info comes from, and if it's right?

556. God is not responsible for war and suffering

Comment #48160 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on June 6, 2007 at 10:46 pm

Is there anything more absurd than an all powerful, all knowing, all loving God not being responsible? Is the writer some kind of Republican?!

It's not as if theology has squared this particular circle, and the rather poor effort at this represented by the whole free will business looks more ludicrous with every passing moment. Thats completely ignoring natural disasters.

Sure from our perspective we have free will, because we don't have all the inputs, but hardly from the perspective of a God who can see everything, and in advance to boot!!

Nudge a synapse here, reduce a hormone level there and Eve would never have eaten that apple. Wouldn't that have been easier, more humane and simply better planning?

557. My Road to Atheism, What Took Me So Long and The Aftermath

Comment #48073 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on June 6, 2007 at 1:33 pm

Anyway, her fears of me losing my faith has already brought tears to her eyes... and I'm only just expressing doubts at this point - nothing more. We have a 3 year old and a 1 year old... raising them right only adds to the dilemma. I don't even want to think how my family would react.

Phew .... I don't envy you your situation. What about her sense of justice? My sense of outrage about injustice, and the mystery of why the world was an injust place 2000 years after Christs incarnation was a major contributing factor in my apostasy.

Although in your spot, I'm not even sure renouncing your faith is a wise idea, not if it puts your whole family at risk.

Maybe it's a waiting game, sometimes a transition like this can take years. For myself and my wife I reckon it took about 5 and perhaps as many as 10 years. I wouldn't do anything rash.

I genuinely think that if there is a God, and it's the Christian God, he has got to be merciful, respect honest enquiry and love each and every one of us completely. If God is not like this, He is a tyrant anyway and does not deserve our worship. A biblical case can be made for this, but you have do a lot "it's a mystery", but then you have to do that anyway!

I guess it's my "either way I win" fallback position, you're welcome to use it, and I hope it helps:-)

Good luck;-)

558. Hamas Kindergarten Graduation Ceremony

Comment #48040 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on June 6, 2007 at 11:24 am

155. Comment #48038 by pewkatchoo on June 6, 2007 at 11:20 am

You asked me what it would take. I told you.

Actually that was me. For the record.

559. Hamas Kindergarten Graduation Ceremony

Comment #48037 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on June 6, 2007 at 11:18 am

151. Comment #48026 by pewkatchoo on June 6, 2007 at 10:34 am

Brian, for sure not every Palestinian is in love with death, though Islam certainly seems to promote it to levels that other religions do not. However, they peaceful ones are not the ones that have the power. Just look at those kids if you have problems accepting this.

I've no trouble agreeing with all of that, except your conclusion. Surely those devoid of power, and then blown up be warplanes are as much innocent victims as isrealis blown up on buses?

Shouldn't we be eager to help them too?

560. My Road to Atheism, What Took Me So Long and The Aftermath

Comment #48023 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on June 6, 2007 at 10:21 am

22. Comment #47546 by james_the_doubter on June 4, 2007 at 11:40 pm

Carnitine,


Wow. The parallels between our lives are uncanny - major exceptions being I still have faith - more confused than ever though. I'm working through all of this currently.

James I was moved by your post, not quite to tears but close enough:-)

For me it was the science I just got tired of trying to reconcile it, and capitulated that the observable world squares most readily with a Godless universe. Or a God so uninvolved as to be functionally irrelevant.

For my wife, it was a program on the radio about a group of muslim women talking about their lives, their families and their faith. She suddenly had the insight, that born there, she would have been one of them.

We both drifted apart from the church and woke up in bed one morning and realised we were both atheists. We got there because we just decided to take a time out.

My advice to anyone wrestling with faith is to take the time, 6 months a year to think every thought, and pursue every intellectual avenue you like. Don't go to church, don't hang out with church people. Discuss with everyone, certainly, and read everything you can get your hands on by the great atheists of history.

A loving God will surely not punish honest enquiry, and if he does, who wants to worship that anyway?

561. Hamas Kindergarten Graduation Ceremony

Comment #48016 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on June 6, 2007 at 9:44 am

147. Comment #48011 by pewkatchoo on June 6, 2007 at 9:09 am

... preferring to revert to violence, was the day that I lost all sympathy for them and their cult of death. I think you are backing a losing horse there.

Is it really true to say that they have a preference for violence though?

My hackles always rise when I hear this kind of statement, because it seems to suggest to me the idea that "Here is a different order of human, a kind that loves death embraces violence, and critically, are not like us. They cannot be reasoned with."

Is that what you mean, and if this is case, when would you have sympathy for them? What would it take for you to side with the Palestinians?

562. Hamas Kindergarten Graduation Ceremony

Comment #48009 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on June 6, 2007 at 9:05 am

I see this thread has flared up again, little wonder the problem is so intractable when we can't agree on a position in our cozy oasis of reason.

Let me throw a little fuel on the fire, with two points.

One
I genuinely wonder how much ethical space exists between a pilot who drops a precision bomb that kills X people by "accident", and a suicide bomber who kills people with "intent".

I say this because modern armies have powerful statistical models that project with great accuracy the number of "accidental" deaths there will be. In this context, can one meaningfully talk about "unintended" consequences? When those consequences were mapped out in some detail in advance?

Two
For the loved ones of those killed, the reasons given by the perpetrators matter little.

The professional army says, "We do our best to minimise casualties, but you can't make an omelette without breaking eggs".

The terrorist organisation says, "We are a poorly equipped group of freedom fighters held at bay by a vast military machine, We will not line up fore square to be mown down in short order. You leave us no choice but to attack civilians.

Is either postion really credible? Doesn't it, in the final analysis, just boil down to "I'm bigger, tougher and you'll do as I say".

Shouldn't we be beyond that now, and isn't it incumbent on the stronger party to lead the way? More critically, don't we have examples where this has happened?

563. Hamas Kindergarten Graduation Ceremony

Comment #47798 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on June 5, 2007 at 2:39 pm

107. Comment #47795 by Rtambree on June 5, 2007 at 2:34 pm

>Cheers that no one called critics of Israel antisemities, and that no one compared Israel to Nazis either.

Cheers all round, although Brian did call us ALL fascists :)

I got it out of the way, broke the ice, I was HELPING!

564. U.S. a theocratic state, says former Canadian ambassador

Comment #47794 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on June 5, 2007 at 2:33 pm

99. Comment #47787 by GoatBoy36 on June 5, 2007 at 2:18 pm

brian,

Yet here you are again:-) Somewhat telling don't you think?

C'mon, it is genuinely hilarious how you return again and again to tell me how little my opinions count to you. Surely you see the irony in this at least?

Hmmm?:-)

In fact your obsessive responding to my posts is offending my delicate sensibilities ... maybe I should report you for, stalking or disagreeing with me or something.

Can I recommend Voltaires Candide for you, since we are trading book suggestions? You can even get it online at librivox as an audio book. Something that might have a humanising effect on your rather, detached approach to the subject of war and death.

565. U.S. a theocratic state, says former Canadian ambassador

Comment #47782 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on June 5, 2007 at 2:05 pm

97. Comment #47779 by GoatBoy36 on June 5, 2007 at 1:59 pm

Oh I doubt they'll be terribly impressed:-) I've seen much worse than this!

I'd suggest you either get a thicker skin or moderate your fascist tendencies, tendencies which I have been kind enough to try and point out to you.

Still an attempt to suppress opinions you disagree with is really part of the same pathology isn't it?

Heavens! Have some capacity for self reflection:-)

566. Hamas Kindergarten Graduation Ceremony

Comment #47775 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on June 5, 2007 at 1:39 pm

You're ALL FASCIST BASTARDS. It's what my contribution generally is apparently. Thought I'd cut to the chase:-)

Seriously though, it is with a sense of wonder that I as an Irishman point to republican terrorism in Northern Ireland and how it was dealt with by Britian as an example of how to manage these kinds of problems.

It basically boils down to the stronger party taking a the body blows, and not retaliating until things eventually calm down. In case of Britian, on and off for 30 years. Yet the sum total of deaths in that conflict still come in below allied military casualties in the current Iraq conflict.

Imagine a schoolyard, a kid attacks the teacher. Does the teacher take up a karate stance and kick the kid to a bloody pulp? Nope they restrain the kid as best they can until they find out what on earth is the little bastards damage.

In the meantime, they might get a few kicks and a slap or two, but an adult can take that.

This is how Isreal should deal with the Palestinians, and how the west should deal with radical Islam.

Restraint, and police work are the only rational option, because simply standing off and kicking the shit out of these people is going to escalate to a WWII class conflict, and potentially beyond, eventually.

567. U.S. a theocratic state, says former Canadian ambassador

Comment #47769 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on June 5, 2007 at 1:16 pm

95. Comment #47740 by Fanusi Khiyal on June 5, 2007 at 11:52 am

Come now. Lets have something a little more original than martyrdom, tasteless given the subject, don't you think?

Anyone who suggests the execution of another, I believe that was the exact word you used, for the mere articulation of a thought however despicable or deranged is beyond the pale. Yet here you are blubbering over a few words, and my refusal to "understand" your killing some, to save some approach, you're a real Mother Teresa, no really I mean that:-)

Your entire thesis boils down to an exercise in culling another group of humans because the potential of things that some of them have written, and some of them have said and unhappily some of them have done, frighten you. You have the effrontery to dress it up as altruism, and the additional gall to take offence when it's pointed out.

I'm not smearing you, you condemn yourself by your own words. Still, I'm happy to ram the boot home and point you, and your sidekick out as the closet little authoritarian fascists you are. Oh dear, was that a double adhominem, perhaps a triple, does "little" count? Ooooops.

I despise Islam and it's myriad criminal acts as much as the next atheist, but I won't standby and listen to casual talk of exection or how "normal" muslims are actually terribly dangerous too!! Not at all like ... you know ... us.

I had to laugh in appalled horror at the idea of embracing republican terrorists as "our kind". Truly a-fucking-mazing. However, the whining about being misunderstood was altogether too much. I understand you fellows perfectly. Thats what is so upsetting I suppose.

I'm such a stickler for the last word. I could go on all night, but I suspect you've got the message, and at this stage communication with you is not a priority. Don't let the door hit you chaps on the way out,

G'bye:-)

568. Hamas Kindergarten Graduation Ceremony

Comment #47717 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on June 5, 2007 at 10:54 am

56. Comment #47712 by Benjamin Michael on June 5, 2007 at 10:41 am

Regarding death tolls, was the USA on the wrong side of the moral ledger in WWII because less USA citizens were killed by the enemy then enemy troops/civilians killed by the USA?

There is the whole question of wether a threat is truly existential or not. It can be argued that world war II was a stuggle for survival against a very powerful enemy, the six day war can be seen in the same light, but the palestinians and the Israelis? Thats a bridge too far for me.

I see both parties as victims, but I do see the Isrealis as the more substantial aggressor. That said, not an easy situation, with no "good guys" and a thousand shades of gray.

569. U.S. a theocratic state, says former Canadian ambassador

Comment #47694 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on June 5, 2007 at 9:52 am

My only surprise is that anyone "talks" with you at all. I sure hope you're not like this in real life, you'll have a right hard time of it.

And yet they do, and I don't. So maybe it's just you?

Ciao:-)

570. U.S. a theocratic state, says former Canadian ambassador

Comment #47683 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on June 5, 2007 at 9:14 am

91. Comment #47661 by GoatBoy36 on June 5, 2007 at 7:48 am

I have to say I found the patronising tone of your last post hilarious, the correction of my spelling and complaints about my logic doubly so, in the context of a poster persistently calling me "brianclough" when my actual name is visible, bold as you like, at the heading of each post.

For the record it's "briancoughlan", the "worldcitizen" is optional. I will be happy to continue to address you as "Goatboy", I think we can safely drop the 36.

It's also passè to complain about spelling, please, have a sift back through your own posts.

I didn't consider your comment a rash generalisation. I would have said so if that covered it, instead I consider yourself and Fanusi Khiyal nascent fascists. It's so easy to stumble into that kind of thing, isn't it? Just ask any of 80 million perfectly innocent Germans still enduring a collective national guilt.

As I hinted above, and will now gladly clarify, you have become in a very real sense, incidental to the discussion. Can the throughly depraved be turned around? Rarely. The key thing is to ensure monstrous ideas are vigorously and publically challenged. I'm happy with the job I've done on that score.

Oh and thanks for the advice, no doubt some of it is valid, try hard enough, and one can learn something from almost anyone:-) Though I think we can now consider our "interaction" at an end.

571. U.S. a theocratic state, says former Canadian ambassador

Comment #47645 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on June 5, 2007 at 6:03 am

Might I also say, as a general observation, that your continual use of emotive language actually does nothing to support any argument you are trying to make.

Perhaps to the nascent fascists among us, but clear thinking people will not allow themselves to be panicked into atrocity, or endorsing repressive laws. This is the audience I guess I am aiming at.

The entire anecdotal tone of your last post totally sickens me I have to say, the casual demonisation of people you have never met, and know nothing about on the basis of a conversation almost devoid of context, with a single individual?

Not good.

572. U.S. a theocratic state, says former Canadian ambassador

Comment #47639 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on June 5, 2007 at 5:47 am

Hmmm... And what, pray, does any of this do to refute my comments? I have never denied that there are 15 million Moslems in Europe - although some jihadists claim it is much higher - but that immigration and birth rates will change that very, very rapidly.

This is a fantasy in your head though. Not an actual real threat, take excel, gets some population growth numbers and crunch those numbers. 15 out of 400 million is not going to become a majority anytime soon, if ever, given the pace at which the world is changing. The mere threat of it is not enough to stampede me into endorsing swingeing executions of stupid people who say stupid things.

Just because you preface your suggestions to atrocity with a little hand wringing, really doesn't improve things. As I noted earlier, almost every genocidal lunatic of history did the same.

I'm sorry man, in summary, your posts are simply an inarticulate recapitulation of "Mein Kampf":-(

573. U.S. a theocratic state, says former Canadian ambassador

Comment #47427 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on June 4, 2007 at 1:32 pm

What I notice, brian, is that you have, as expected, brought not so much as one single fact to refute the ones that I have brought to the table. However, rhetoric isn't reality.

Other than that the birth rates you project, the whole foundation for your own personal "final solution", are pure hysteria? I posted a link to a BBC article which puts muslims in the EU at 15 million or so in 400 million. This is assuming an undifferentiated religious and political block, a quite laughable assumption.

France is also a founding nation of the EU, and these impossible scare stories are made exponentially politically impossible by that fact alone.

Plus, as I've said I live in Sweden. I have been involved in a number of these "debates", and frequently have Sweden cited to me as a source of the most incredible outrages. All complete tosh, so I have a healthy dose of scepticism for similar stories from parts of the world where I cannot verify the details as readily.

Still, at least you're forthright about your solution, although execution for articulating thoughts, however disagreeable puts you in the downright evil or deranged column for me. Sorry, I'm funny that way.

Look. Hardly anyone starts a genocide with "These inconvenient fuckers are just in the way, lets wipe 'em out!". They justify it exactly as you have attempted to do.

Frankly, I think to characterise your thoughts on this subject as a solution to anything is fairly inhuman, but you've certainly thought it through, which is more than can be said for some. Credit where credit is due.

The difference is I reject your solution, (a) because your foundational premise is false, and (b) because culling particular groups of humans you feel threatened by is not what I would consider a solution.

I'll be looking for another way for quite some time yet, and with the US/EU still the richest regions on the planet, and India and China (both throughly non muslim) the fastest growing, it is likely to be a very long time indeed before Osama bin Ladens wet dreams are fulfilled. So forgive me while I try the old dialouge route.

574. U.S. a theocratic state, says former Canadian ambassador

Comment #47379 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on June 4, 2007 at 9:31 am

Your aggressive tone is comical at times Brian, but you should slow down on the personal attacks and any opionion I might have on your beliefs are based on reading several posts of yours as you post alot. Not one.

Yeah ok, but you think carefully before posting stuff that threatens people with nuclear incineration, at the very least research the source you're reading.

My red faced yelling may be comical (at times), but it isn't going to unleash genocide, and this is a very real threat, much more real than an islamic "takeover" of Europe. Although I'll grant you that both outcomes are unlikely.

The west if it really wanted to, could actually slaughter millions, islamic militants for all their bravado wouldn't stand a chance. Plus this kind of talk plays right into the hands of the religious right, they love to hear this kind of stuff, so yes, I get huffy and unreasonable when I hear it from atheists.

Plus I'm Irish, and I have tremendous respect for the politicians and military of Britian who through 30 years of republican terrorism, held their nerve and didn't get stupid and reactionary, or at least it was never widespread. Dublin was never carpet bombed, the Republic of Ireland was never invaded, even when the attacks moved to mainland Britian and cost the city of London and elsewhere millions of pounds in damage.

What was the outcome of that restraint? A prosperous and peaceful neighbour, that works with Britian in the EU. Heck we even vote for those bastards in the Eurovision, and that song was fucking AWFUL. Thats loyalty:-)

Seriously though, this is the template we should be looking to for our example, not World War II.

The real threat is a creeping theocratic take over of the US (although also quite unlikely I think), not immediatley or directly to us, but millions of our fellow human beings in the middle east.

Don't outgroup any part of the human race so completely that you're willing to endorse mass slaughter of them for fear, suspicion or the random happenstance of their religion.

575. My Road to Atheism, What Took Me So Long and The Aftermath

Comment #47372 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on June 4, 2007 at 9:04 am

Hi all, my little homage to this excellent blog :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8VifHI6jcw

576. My Road to Atheism, What Took Me So Long and The Aftermath

Comment #47316 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on June 4, 2007 at 4:18 am

The feelings that accompanied my deconversion are strikingly similar to the feelings described by many of those people who I personally converted to Mormonism.

This is exactly what I have experienced. I've actually begun to refer to it as an epiphany, because that is truly what it was.

This is so exciting, I'm hearing so many similar stories, and a fellow ex-missionary who visited us two weeks ago was just looking for the push which myself and my wife duly gave.

Interesting times.

577. Richard Dawkins and Alister McGrath

Comment #47076 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on June 3, 2007 at 1:10 am

But if science cannot say anything about the real existence of its very subject matter (namely the physical universe) then it can't say anything about the existence of anything at all.

I believe you are confusing the plot of "The Matrix", with reality. However, you'll recall that even "The Matrix" eventually regresses to an "actual" universe.

Your contribution seems to have the primary function of reducing it's audience to a sort of bewildered helplessness, I suppose so we turn to God or something?

But really, what you've said here doesn't add anything to the discussion does it? It's deeply nihilistic for a start, philosophy disappearing up it's own bum so to speak.

Interesting to watch, but of no practical value.

578. Man to die over insult

Comment #47046 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on June 2, 2007 at 11:35 pm

Incredible. A gang of thugs kick the shit out of him, and he's the one in prison?

579. U.S. a theocratic state, says former Canadian ambassador

Comment #47043 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on June 2, 2007 at 11:27 pm

69. Comment #47004 by GoatBoy36 on June 2, 2007 at 4:51 pm

Again there is much we agree on, yet as you've noted solutions are complex, not easy.

What concerns me greatly, is that on this thread, an oasis of reason, we've had an hysterical "newsmax" article posted as fact. Claims that France may be 50% muslim in as little as 25 years and the spectre of the collapse of European society raised.

This is the kind of thing that infuriates me, because many people are sheep, and fear will ensure they follow whatever "messiah" presents him or herself. Sure, if I believed it myself I'd be on the barricades already, but I'm made of sterner stuff:-) This sort of indulgent, loose talk will result in the deaths of millions of people, innocent muslims, if we don't speak out about it.

Large majorities slaughter signficant minorities, by gradually dehumanising and demonising them over time. We have seen this play out several times on a grand scale in the last 100 years alone.

I see the beginning of this pattern on a global scale with regard to muslims, and it worries me, and it especially worries me when I see rational people buying into, and defending unfounded, impossible and frequently mutually exclusive fears.

However, I am no fan of Islam or any religion, as is clear here, and address most of the actual issues : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jC7qxSKTAw

580. U.S. a theocratic state, says former Canadian ambassador

Comment #46990 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on June 2, 2007 at 2:42 pm

63. Comment #46983 by GoatBoy36 on June 2, 2007 at 2:23 pm

brian clough - I suggest you open your eyes. And ears ....

I find little to disagree with in the paragraph referenced here. These things have all happened, and they are appalling and wrong, and Islam must shoulder much of the blame.

Now. What do we do about that? Declare war on a billion muslims? Ban Islam? Nuke Indonesia?

You are the one that is not thinking clearly here, the whole tone of your posts is that of a mind clouded by panic. Calm down.

Negotiation and dialouge, the Golden Rule! Empathy will solve this thing, because we are the ones in the position of strength, that will not change for the forseeable future no matter what Sam Harris are anyone else is telling you. The numbers simply do not add up.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4385768.stm

581. U.S. a theocratic state, says former Canadian ambassador

Comment #46986 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on June 2, 2007 at 2:31 pm

63. Comment #46983 by GoatBoy36 on June 2, 2007 at 2:23 pm

Fanusi Khiyal - I agree with you, one need only look around the world today to see what's happening. As for brian clough and silmarillion, I find it hard to credit that on a website dedicated to reason and science, there are people such as yourselves willing to find excuses for a cruel, backward religion based on a tribal desert culture, that has caused massive suffering to nonbelievers in the past and wishes to cause even more in the future. Quite astonishsing.


I am as amazed by your attitude as you are by mine then. I agree that islam is backward, horrible etc.

What I will not endorse or allow pass without comment, is the sort of right wing thuggery that results in the deaths of thousands for western self interest, while masquerading as altruism. That simply sickens me.

These countries are a military joke. The idea that Europe is at risk from Islam is a joke. Or it would be if it didn't have the potential to stampede credulous, stupid people, several of them posting on this site, into a genocidal global war.

So I call bullshit on Islams claims, and your claims both.

I will say posting on this site has disabused me of the notion that Atheists are noticeably more rational than the religious, this is clearly not the case!!:-)

582. U.S. a theocratic state, says former Canadian ambassador

Comment #46984 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on June 2, 2007 at 2:24 pm

For a bunch of atheist you all sure do like to use illogical arguments to suppport your outlandish claims. For one thing, Iraq has not destroyed the US. People who think that the EU will overtake the US is power and authority have manybe had a little to much to drink.

For the record, thats pretty much just my view. Iraq has not destroyed the US in the conventional war sense, but it has forced the US to expend vast amounts of political capital.

Did the fate of Wolfowitz just escape you? India and China have 4 times as many people between them than all the citizens of the US and EU combined. Do you really think, they are going to play patty cake with the US, or the EU when they no longer need to? Really?

Thus doesn't mean war, and I don't expect that to happen, but the US is storing up an awful lot of ill will for the future, and I happen to think that payback will come eventually in economic form. The EU can at least continue absorbing Turkey, the Ukraine even Russia and all the former soviet states. Then potentially the north african countries, the EU at least has the relevant genes to behave like this. I personally think it will have to, to stay relevant.

The US doesn't though. It has a dreadful relationship with all its South American neighbours, some kind of North American Union is on the cards with Canada no doubt, but even that is hardly certain.

In my head that translates to a subdued US casting around for support 30 - 50 years from now, and joining an enormously expanded EU as a junior partner. Speculation, but not completely insane? Maybe:-)

583. U.S. a theocratic state, says former Canadian ambassador

Comment #46981 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on June 2, 2007 at 2:07 pm

59. Comment #46969 by Fanusi Khiyal on June 2, 2007 at 12:44 pm

brian, I was referring to your smear of Harris as 'hysterical' while providing zero, that is _zero_, evidence that he's wrong.

What, other than the suggestion that France will be 50% muslim in 25 years? That is hysterical, and Sam has been called on it before. France has a muslim population of less than 10%, open up excel and do the math, 50% is not happening even in the next 50 years.

584. U.S. a theocratic state, says former Canadian ambassador

Comment #46962 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on June 2, 2007 at 12:20 pm

47. Comment #46947 by OhioLen on June 2, 2007 at 10:44 am

Would you care to explain which bodily orifice you pulled that strawman out of? I made no mention whatsoever of a first strike; I was pointing out that Pakistan is a far more likely source of nuclear technology than the former Soviet Union.

Please address what is actually written, not what you fabricated in your head.


This is what worries me. You are too dense to have even formulated the implications of your hysterical fear mongering:-(

So amuse me. How do you propose to deal with the scenario you've raised here?

585. U.S. a theocratic state, says former Canadian ambassador

Comment #46959 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on June 2, 2007 at 12:14 pm

>>Really? Has he? I'd love to see that quote, because it sounds like utter bullshit to me and I just don't think he could possibly delude himself so completely, even in this area where he does wax occasionally hysterical.<<

Yes, that's it. When you have no facts, smear smear smear away.


Hey fair is fair, I asked for the quote and you provided it, and I am amazed that he would make such an utterly unlikely claim. Damn, I like Sam, but that knocks a few notches off his credibility.

586. U.S. a theocratic state, says former Canadian ambassador

Comment #46946 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on June 2, 2007 at 10:39 am

. Comment #46941 by OhioLen on June 2, 2007 at 10:20 am

Right, lets incinerate millions of innocent people in a first strike because you're paranoid? Or do you have a suggestion that doesn't involve indiscriminate bombing?

587. U.S. a theocratic state, says former Canadian ambassador

Comment #46933 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on June 2, 2007 at 9:46 am

Sam Harris has noted that France is Moslem Majority in twenty-five years even if immigration stops tomorrow.

Really? Has he? I'd love to see that quote, because it sounds like utter bullshit to me and I just don't think he could possibly delude himself so completely, even in this area where he does wax occasionally hysterical.

So back that up, I want to see chapter and verse.

588. U.S. a theocratic state, says former Canadian ambassador

Comment #46916 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on June 2, 2007 at 7:40 am

33. Comment #46908 by scot on June 2, 2007 at 7:03 am

I never said the US was to blame for everything that's wrong with the planet. When did I say anything even approaching that?

If this is the level misinterpretation we can expect from you while reading a comment on a blog, a few hundred words long, what possible store can we put by the rest of your utterances?

The number of times, I've had people "like you" tell me how Sweden (where I live!!!) had become a theocratic state, overun by sharia law. Pure madness.

And for goodness check where you are getting your news from!!!

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=NewsMax.com

The worst atheist haters, religious right suckups on the planet you utter, credulous moron!!! FUCK I HAVE NO PATIENCE FOR THIS SHIT FROM ATHEISTS. NONE. YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO HAVE SOME CRITICAL FUCKING FACULTIES!!!

*pant, pant, spittle dribble*

Yes there are some utterly insane religious freaks, with no capacity and less sense, who would like nothing better than to kill a bunch of americans, even detonate a nuclear weapon in an american city.

So what now? Slaughter every muslim, americans included, to the last man, woman and child? Well?

589. U.S. a theocratic state, says former Canadian ambassador

Comment #46894 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on June 2, 2007 at 5:22 am

Reality-check anyone? Iran is a theocracy. Saudi Arabia is a theocracy. Large areas of Western Europe will be soon if we don't pull our heads out of the sand. America. is. not.

This really is delusional, dangerous tripe and it corrals the weak minded into supporting actions like the invasion of Iraq, or the bombing of Iran, when these countries aren't remotely a threat, let alone an existential threat, to us.

I live in Sweden, which has a relativley high proportion of migrants compared to most EU countries. Roughly, 10% of the population are migrants most of them from the middle east. The problems this raises are already being soberly debated, and considered. Certainly several honour killing cases have been prosecuted, and won by the state, resulting in custodial sentences for those involved.

Yet, it would take about 100 years of the same immigration levels, plus muslim births outstripping "Christian" ones by orders of magnitude, as well as a complete failure of swedish culture to make any inroads whatever on the migrants for them to become a "threat".

It would also require them to vote as a monolithic uniform block, to acheive the 50% of parlimentary seats required to even begin to contemplate changing the law.

For fucks sake, get a grip!!! The kind of tirade you've launched here convinces stupid, biddable people to vote for fascist and repressive parties, and out of fear and ignorance, to endorse the killing of innocent people for no other actual reason than the geographic lottery of their birth.

All it takes is a little mature and calm reflection to conclude that the "islamic scare" is pure hysteria.

590. U.S. a theocratic state, says former Canadian ambassador

Comment #46889 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on June 2, 2007 at 4:46 am

Stephan Harper is a good man doing a good job as Prime Minister of Canada and as an Atheist I am proud to support him, just like many an Atheist voted for Tony Blair in the UK.

I'll think you'll find most of them regretting that now:-)

591. U.S. a theocratic state, says former Canadian ambassador

Comment #46888 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on June 2, 2007 at 4:44 am

16. Comment #46859 by Shuggy on June 2, 2007 at 1:29 am

Comment #46830 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on June 1, 2007 at 9:45 pm


But I don't think you can ignore the US's castiron grip on world popular culture. Wherever bellies are full, I fear you'll find people care more about "Friends" and MTV and wearing Nikes than global warming or nuclear threats.

Oh I'm sure you are right. Each world power leaves an indelible imprint on global culture, I suspect that the American imprint will be that much deeper.

Nonetheless, as english becomes more pervasive (100s of millions speak it in India), and language is eventually eliminated as a barrier to communication (surely not more than 15 - 20 years away), the grip of the americans even on culture will weaken. The point is, if you can do business with A or B, and there is little economic difference, you are going to choose based on trust, and after Bush no one trusts the americans. Certainly people are scared of them, but trust? No.

That is a serious problem in a turbulent changing world.

592. U.S. a theocratic state, says former Canadian ambassador

Comment #46830 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on June 1, 2007 at 9:45 pm

Regardless of the crap that is going on right now the U.S. is a country that everyone else looks to period.

I think this is serious wishful thinking. The US has about 300 million citizens, the EU roughly 500 and an inbuilt capacity for potentially limitless (other than the population of the planet) expansion that the US simply lacks. With China 1 billion and India 1.3 billion coming onstream economically, the US is gradually loosing it's capacity to simply dictate and make sure the game is played to it's advantage.

The US is now broadly loathed and in many circles considered dangerous, not just because of the Iraq business but because of how it has, and continues to, drag it's heels on action on Global Warming.

Nope, the US is doomed to insignificance, and justly deserved, Bush has genuinely destroyed and undercut the US's future. At the very least it's future lies in clubbing together with the EU, probably as a reluctant junior partner in the next 50 years or so, to ensure the Chinese and Indians don't simply ride rough shod over us economically.

I such an idea seems shocking, consider that less than a hundred years ago, in 1910, the British Empire was the unquestioned leader of the world. Where is Britian now? A reluctant province of the EU, and a sometimes semi state of the US. As for the Soviet Union, well. My daughter goes to school with people who have never even heard of it.

The scope for economic improvement lies now in political expansion by absorbing new countries into agreed partnership, and economic expansion, by improving the lot of billions of already integrated citizens.

The US lost this game in the longterm the day George Bush took office.

593. The Dawkins delusion

Comment #45851 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on May 29, 2007 at 11:46 am

I'm convinced that the books by Dawkins, Hitchens and the others will eventually be seen as the line that was drawn in the sand, even if takes decaeds for most people to cross that line into enlightenment.

Here's hoping:-)

594. Sam Harris Strikes Back

Comment #45814 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on May 29, 2007 at 10:42 am

Harris, on the other hand seems upset that Hedges isn't one of the millions (probably billions) of people who practice religion in the naïve, anthropomorphic, and superstitious forms he would rather attack. He wasn't debating the millions and billions. He was debating Chris Hedges.

Most atheists could care less about vague emphemeral stuff like Hedges "God". Except in so much as it provides cover for the really dangerous stuff.

If everybody believed what Hedges believes we'd probably be fine, but they don't. In fact I'd hazard that almost no one believes that pap, probably not even Hedges himself. What would be the point?

The mass of theists really believe stuff like Jesus died and rose from the dead, that when you pray he hears, and sometimes Allah speaks and you should listen. Thats the problem, and Harris always nails it.

595. Al Gore on Reason

Comment #45579 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on May 28, 2007 at 9:38 am

As for your posting. I merely checked the main forum itself, not the .net website to test my theory that you were a troll blown to defend Gore.

This is certainly nonsense. I was just reminded of an exchange with Steve on another thread about 10 days ago, were we differed on an issue. Long before this Gore thing was posted. I'll be happy to point you to that thread if it will help:-)

596. Al Gore on Reason

Comment #45524 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on May 28, 2007 at 4:11 am

Since we are conciliating, "fringe cultists" was over the top:-) Poetic licence?

Should I read the PM, or would we both be happier if I just delete it? Your call, things can get so heated ... it's how wars start isn't it?

597. Al Gore on Reason

Comment #45511 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on May 28, 2007 at 3:35 am

156. Comment #45508 by pewkatchoo on May 28, 2007 at 3:23 am

So now I am a 'crank' 'not particularly well informed' a 'fringe cultist (wow)' all because I have some (very small) concerns about your ideology.

If thats your genuine position then my criticism is certainly overly harsh. However, we've locked horns on this subject a few times, on more than one thread and you didn't strike me as someone with "very small" concerns about the science.

I'm going to spare myself (and you) a trawl back through this or other threads to unearth relevant posts.

Talk to you on a thread sometime where we agree, ciao:-)

598. Al Gore on Reason

Comment #45502 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on May 28, 2007 at 3:13 am

Thanks for answering my question Steve. I am sorry I don't measure up to your supreme intellects. Have a nice life.

Oh come on, now you feel sorry for yourself? Besides, my claims are almost the exact opposite. It's my very ignorance on a complex subject that makes me wary of drawing conclusions based on single issue minority science, and instead informing myself about the consensus among relevant experts, not any claims about a "supreme" intellect.

Supreme intellects are not the issue anyway. If Steve, who clearly has the advantage of both of us, were to start posting personal research showing AGW is utter nonsense, my stance would be unchanged.

He's just some random, apparently informed guy, posting on a forum. As for you, you don't even sound particularly well informed, so forgive me for putting the boot in, but it would be nuts for me to listen to anything you have to say. Especially after your performance on this thread.

The whole attitude of you and others like you serves to undermine trust in science and the scientific method. Which while certainly not perfect, is the most powerful method of enquiry humans have developed to date. There are enough real ethical breaches (the cloning debacle comes to mind) without making stuff up.

Fringe cultists like yourself merely embolden the flying monkeys of ignorance that foist religion, creationism, astrology and similar lunacy on the world.

They make the same flawed arguments and charges that AGW deniers do, and it does the same damage. That just pisses me off, especially coming from "rational" atheists. I guess I hold atheists to a higher standard:-(

Still it's your right to make whatever wild claims you like, but it's our right to call you on it.

599. Al Gore on Reason

Comment #45489 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on May 28, 2007 at 2:30 am

Oh, by the way. I fully admit that I got some of my facts and figures wrong in my debates with Steve, but I have been relying on my own imperfect memory or impressions of events that I lived through in many cases. But Steve of course uses that to dismiss me for lack of knowledge. I know the type of person that does that. Steve and Brian lay claim to being men of reason, by their actions I submit that they are anything but.

*sigh*

As you note, you only have Steves word that he knows what he knows. Of course, you have little else for the people informing whatever fringe conclusions you've drawn, has that simply escaped your notice?

Myself, I usually avoid cut n paste ping pong matches, preferring as a non expert to point to the overwhelming consensus among the relevant experts. Supported and butteressed from multiple sources and accredited organisations. This, for the forseeable future, is how I will continue to assess complex issues I know little about.

This strikes you as unreasonable. Yet, it also strikes you as pedantic, when Steve calls your reliability into question, "Just because you got some of the information wrong". What a meany!!

Neither you nor I have anything like the relevant skills to draw conclusions from the raw science, so we look to experts and consensus. Thats what rational people do.

You can certainly say what you like, but I submit that you are nothing more than a crank sniping from the sidelines for holding the views you do.

If it was any other area, quantum physics, evolution or the theory of gravity you would whole heartedly agree with me. If you don't, perhaps you need to investigate creationism, crunch the numbers, read the papers ... maybe you've missed something!! Maybe the minority is on the cusp of some amazing breakthrough!!!

We are not the unreasonable ones here, and it's blindingly obvious to any objective observer.

600. It came like yesterday

Comment #45462 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on May 27, 2007 at 11:02 pm

Then science came along and said "Hey, we're not special. We aren't the center of everything. Everything doesn't revolve around us." And some people were humbled.

Then along come the environmentalists and say "Hey! We're special. We can change the climate of an entire planet as a byproduct of some of our activities. We alone do more to the climate than the energy output of a star hitting us for billions of years. Solar Flares? Comets? Volcanoes? Meteors? Plate Tectonics? Nah. We got all of those beat."

Actually science is paradoxically responsible for both conclusions. Your post sounds a little like you think some wacky hippies just made the environmental stuff up.

Some people actually are deluded about these problems, so it's important for atheists, being supporters of science to get our story straight. I'm sure you understand:-)