551. Emory Brain Imaging Studies Reveal Biological Basis For Human Cooperation

Comment #54592 by Veronique on July 8, 2007 at 2:16 am

Perhaps everyone should stop and remember Aesop.

I, and I am sure, a lot of you were read some of 'his' fables as children. As we learnt to read ourselves, we read more fables. At least, I know I did. The fables he collected together stem from about mid 6th century BC to 1000BC or more.

I would think that most of us hold that the moral lessons from the fables have merit in the shaping of any society. I tend to think that morals and societies grew and shaped each other together. As they still do.

Indeed, the idea of a 'christian morality' would have also had its genesis in such fables. Aesop only collected them. They had been around for a long, long time in some form or another. That different religions tiz them up to reflect some particular belief system and then add some to enhance social control, remove some for the same reason, doesn't mean that 'moral' behaviour hadn't seen its genesis way, way back.

My sense of 'good' behaviour, moral imperatives and ethical stances tend to come from that childhood. Sure, I have spent the majority of my life in a culturally christian nation and have been subject to the societal 'norms'. Sure, those norms have had an effect on me - impossible not to have had.

I have never been subject to a religious upbringing in the christian or any other sense. I did, however grow up with my parents, siblings, teachers, other students, policemen, doctors and the whole shebang. All people have some input into the growing child's concepts. My parents taught me language and with that I imbibed a lot of their particular stances on morality and 'right and wrong' behaviour.

And before anyone calls this a 'subjective' post, have a glance back and see your own individual 'morality' came from.

This thread has been interesting and BT makes most sense to me. It's all very well to argue about whether it's faith or not. It's just a head spin. To observe the phenomenon on the ground, as it is, is more real. We are here, living in societies. We have survived.

Cheers
V

552. For Muslim Extremists, Religion Matters

Comment #54539 by Veronique on July 7, 2007 at 5:26 pm

Fanusi Back on the Hitchens' thread and your heated (and extremely interesting) exchange with Xenocratic, I have posted an article lifted from Memri TV Monitor from January this year (at comment 151).

I don't know whether you have already seen it. It makes some frightening points about the ME. You may care to comment. I also hope that thread keeps going. I am with Gordon on this; there is common ground. Although, I would like to see comments on the Memri article.

Cheers
V

553. Don't Mince Words: The London Car-Bomb Plot Was Designed to Kill Women

Comment #54521 by Veronique on July 7, 2007 at 4:00 pm

I have just read the following on Memri TV Monitor. Posted in January this year:

Following are excerpts from an interview with Syrian-born historian Mahmoud Al-Sayyed Al-Dugheim, which aired on Al-Jazeera TV on January 30, 2007.

Mahmoud Al-Sayyed Al-Dugheim: We consider the Zionist plan to be dangerous to the Arab nation, but even more dangerous is the Safavid, Sassanian, Iranian plan to restore the Empire of Cyrus, which would range from Greece to Egypt, and the Arabian Peninsula, in addition to other regions. The Zionist plan was unable to penetrate the ranks of Islamic unity, the way the Safavid Iranian plan did. The collaborators with the Zionists throughout the Arab and Islamic world are too ashamed to reveal themselves, while the collaborators with the Sassanian, Safavid plan boast about it in public. Wasn't it one of their leaders who said yesterday: "We are a Lebanon in Iran, and an Iran in Lebanon"?

While the Zionist plan targets Jerusalem, which is holy to us, the Safavid plan targets Mecca and Al-Madina. If you go back to their books, which they do not mention in the media, yet these books exist and are accepted by them - they claim that their Hidden Imam will come to Mecca and Al-Madina, destroy the Al-Haram Mosque and the Mosque of the Prophet, and will dig in the graves of Abu Bakr and Omar, and burn them both, and then he will command the wind to blow them away. He will also dig in the grave of Aisha, the Mother of the Believers, and will execute her. All this is part of their plan.

The Shah was most definitely one of the sworn enemies of the Arabs, but he did not legislate a law to persecute the Sunni Muslims, who constitute one-third of the Iranian population. The new Iranian constitution persecutes Sunni Muslims in Iran, while it gives constitutional rights to the the Zoroastrians, the Jews, and the Christians. This constitution denies the Sunnis these rights. There is no Sunni mosque in Tehran, even though there are over two million Sunni Muslims there.

All these actions are part of the 50-year plan of the Protocols of the Mullahs of Qom. This plan has been published and is well known. It aims to infiltrate the Sunni Muslim countries, to annihilate them, and to sow civil strife between the ruler and his subjects, all within fifty years.

Listen to the following secret communiqué: "At the command and with the guidance of Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, the Supreme Guide of the Islamic Revolution in Iran, and under the title 'The Shi'a of Ali Are Victorious', the extended conference of the world's Shiites was held in the holy city of Qom. It was attended by the leaders of all Shiite parties and religious authorities. The conference decided that a global organization must be established to annihilate the people who are left, to examine and analyze the current regional situation, to build a military force, to infiltrate governmental institutions through the women's organizations everywhere, and then to infiltrate intelligence agencies, and to finish off the Sunni leaders, even by assassination." This is the plan of the Hashashin, which still exists. There is a fatwa by their imams and religious authorities, which permits the trading and planting of hashish, in order to profit and to cover up their crimes.

While the American target is economic oil, the Iranian Persian goal is to massacre the Arabs, as is evident in all their writings.

Fanusi - want to comment?

V

554. Won't anyone stand up for God?

Comment #54519 by Veronique on July 7, 2007 at 3:49 pm

You lasted longer than I did you NaughtyBoy:-)

I am noticing in myself a decided disinclination to read twaddle. I seem to have had a surfeit of the nonsense spruiked by people like the author of said article.

There is no such thing as a 'thinking' christian or muslim or any faithhead. Thinking produces far more neural activity than 'faith' can. It leads to curiosity and educative pursuits, not to a silly old book written by silly men wearing long shifts. And not a decent woman among them!

Now, if the bishop of carlisle hadn't tried to fashion-design his dress and had stayed with the old shift of the bronze age, how seriously do you think anyone would take him? I am sure he would be seen as the nutter he is.

And in the interests of proper speech and capitalisation, I hereby vow that I will only capitalise the word beginning a sentence, and countries, and posters' names, and ......

BTW, I emailed the bish with Satanburiesfossils's long list of quotes from the babble and suggested that he push for inclusion of intelligent weather studies in schools. I have yet to hear from him.

But, then again, I also suggested that he get a proper day job. That may have got up his nose a bit. My suggestion that he read Edward Gibbon and find out when Rome fell may have put him out of sorts.

I am finding the comment threads far more interesting than the articles by religious apologists and the Hitch, I am sad to say.

Never mind, she said, bucking up.There are lots of other articles to be interested in. Like rats pretending to be altruistic. No they're not. I loved my lab. rats but they were selfish and only wanted food and a bit of a cuddle. Or maybe, it was that I wanted the cuddle:-)

Cheers
V

555. Don't Mince Words: The London Car-Bomb Plot Was Designed to Kill Women

Comment #54513 by Veronique on July 7, 2007 at 3:18 pm

Gordon

Please, please break your posts into paragraphs. I like the way you write but have difficulty when faced with a large blob of print with no white spaces to relieve it.

This has been the most fascinating tussle. Like you I think there is common ground, but neither will give way.

Put them face to face and I suspect there would be little difference between them. You can always tell a good argument when both sides can draw sympathy from the observer.

Thank you for a great thread. Far more interesting than the original article that spawned it.

Cheers
V

556. When is a bishop like a suicide bomber?

Comment #54192 by Veronique on July 5, 2007 at 11:25 pm

Goldy that's a good link.

I read something about the 'raisin' interpretation ages ago but couldn't remember where. Still can't, but I now have some references to go on. Still laughing over Geckoman's post.

That was a good article. Thanks.

Cheers
V

557. When is a bishop like a suicide bomber?

Comment #54190 by Veronique on July 5, 2007 at 10:45 pm

What a delightful thread this one has been (so far). I have been thoroughly entertained and I have to add my appreciation of Geckoman's very funny post. LOL

Thank you all very much.

To Logicel, early on in the piece, the sort of scenario you describe made me think of what Steven Weinberg wrote:

With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion.

The bishop is indeed contributing to the terrorism that is superstitution's manifest expression in times of fear.

Cheers
V

558. Scientists Link Housecats to Wildcat Subspecies

Comment #54014 by Veronique on July 5, 2007 at 12:47 am

Of course, I knew that:-)

Clever, clever little animules. That's why they have slaves not masters.

Pewkatchoo did you turn on your private messaging on your profile page yet?

Cheers
V

559. Science of the Soul? 'I Think, Therefore I Am' Is Losing Force

Comment #53883 by Veronique on July 4, 2007 at 12:41 am

Pewkatchoo

Turn you private messaging on in your profile. I have just sent you another story about cats and birds.

Cheers
V

560. Richard Dawkins talks about Darwin and his visit to the Galapagos

Comment #52976 by Veronique on June 28, 2007 at 9:11 pm

Speciation is something I have been interested in since I read Quammen's book The Song of the Dodo several years ago.

The Wallace line is between the mainland and an island that hasn't got a deep channel of water and the speciation that occurs on islands within a continental shelf is so different from speciation on islands separated by deep channels of water.

And you ar right aoratos I reckon they all had a good time! I wish I had been with them:-) I would love to go to the Galapagos Islands. Ah well....

Cheers
V

561. Science of the Soul? 'I Think, Therefore I Am' Is Losing Force

Comment #52959 by Veronique on June 28, 2007 at 6:18 pm

tris – what an amazing video! Thank you for posting the link here. The relationships between the members of the different 'tribes' are so evident. Go buffaloes!

Humans and animals share a lot. The inter-species relationships and specific one-on-one relationships noted most commonly between humans and the 'domesticated' animals with which they share living space and intimate connections are manifest throughout our history.

Most of you know I have cats. Many years ago, I 'found' a stray Burmese-Siamese 8 month old cat in the middle of Sydney when I was visiting a friend. This cat came bounding up the hallway and leapt at me. He didn't use claws to hang on (I had put my hands up to catch him on the leap; it appeared that he expected me to do that). He started smooching at my chin and that was it. I fell like a ton of bricks for him and having found no owner anywhere in the district, put him in my car and drove to Perth. Sydney to Perth was, at that time, about a 2½ day trip.

When he wanted to get out of the car for 'rest stops', he climbed onto my lap, put his paws on my shoulders and made noises. I opened the door, out he raced, did his business and jumped back into the car. I found this behaviour amazing. He never attempted to leave me when I stopped for fuel, food etc. He followed me everywhere and would leap up and settle like a stole on my shoulders and was carted everywhere I went. This was after only a few days of my meeting him. I found that, in itself, amazing.

In Perth, he was happy to stay in my living quarters and when he heard my car come back after work, he raced down the driveway and leapt at me as I got out of the car. We walked down the road together, went shopping together with him on my shoulders; he rarely took his eyes off me. When I sat down he was all over me like a rash and used to sleep in the crook of my arm or on my chest with his head on the pillow. Sometimes I took him to work and he sat in my office, on the desk or my shoulders and 'let' me know when he wanted to go outside.

I called him Sodium Silicate and he was my constant companion until he developed renal failure and I had to euthanase him (very distressing).

I am relating all this because there is no way anyone can tell me that he was unaware of me or unaware of my moods. Silicate was the most extraordinary cat I ever met. His ability to 'sense' me was patently obvious both to me and others. I talked to him (how could you not?) and his responses indicated that 'something' was going on inside his little head. Was he able to 'think' in some fashion? React in some way? And what would that mean? He once bailed up a German Shepherd who was walking (minding his own business I should say) towards us on the street. The dog backed down and retreated (wise dog). Silicate came trotting back and jumped onto my shoulders and off we went again.

Now, I don't know that whatever Silicate exhibited could be called 'consciousness' (Beachbum – it never occurred to me to ask him if he had a political bias:-). Most cats I have lived with have been self absorbed and only aware of me when food preparation was underway or I moved about. Otherwise they behaved as cats are wont to do. Silicate was different. He was mightily attached to me. What does this say about his brain, his awareness of me, his reactions to me, his obvious 'affection' for me?

I would like people on this thread to attempt to explain Silicate's behaviour for me. It's hard for me to distance myself enough to objectively look at this. And I don't know enough anyway.

As for souls, I can entertain the idea but can't adopt such a proposition at all. It's bollocks and the concept merely tries to add something of spurious value to our reflective capacities and ability to 'look into' or contemplate future scenarios: to make us different somehow from other species. While there are differences, of course, the 'soul' isn't one of them.

I watched Zeitgeist – the Movie on google a couple of days ago. The first part deals with religion and its antecedents and correspondences. I am utterly unable to understand why people 'have' to believe in something that just isn't there. A paucity of living experience perhaps? A lack of sense of self-worth? The need to get a life? I really have no idea and couldn't care less. The more that people like Ramachandran find out, the better. The religites (I agree, Russell, 'people of faith' is irritating in the extreme. I'll join your one-man band), keep losing ground but they seem unable to take that last step. The indoctrination is just too strong or they are just too weak. Or both.

Cheers
V

562. We stand awed at the heights our people have achieved

Comment #49795 by Veronique on June 13, 2007 at 1:24 pm

Go PZ!!

Thank you for sending me back to my book shelf. I haven't read Gilgamesh for years. Mine is a different translation, not that it matters really.

What a lovely essay.
V

563. The Great Mutator

Comment #49793 by Veronique on June 13, 2007 at 1:11 pm

33. Comment #49746 by Dr Benway

Thank you very much. You are right - Steve Jones is terrific. I have saved that lecture. He presented everything so easily and clearly. And, of course, yes it answered my query and then some!

Cheers
V

564. The Great Mutator

Comment #49677 by Veronique on June 12, 2007 at 11:27 pm

Someone said at the previous Jerry Coyne post here that he should start writing and join with other writers.

Well, this article is absolutely marvellous. It's clarity is wonderful and, I note, that he has included language that he hasn't before; he's getting stuck in to the impoverished cousin of creationism. He has called Behe. Excellent.

He's getting good at this. Immensely readable, easily explained examples and he knocks Behe for six.

Hey Billy, I thought I read somewhere that some Africans have been shown to have a resistance to AIDS/HIV. Is that true? I can't remember if it was a particular tribe or not. That would probably make sense in terms of exchanging DNA throughout generations. Not sure. You are our resident biochemist.

Cheers
V

565. Christopher Hitchens on Religion

Comment #48753 by Veronique on June 9, 2007 at 1:41 am

I agree Shuggy

I did real Player as well. Stuffed everything up. It was good that I could go to Onpointradio and use windows media player.

kkhant, I will read Wheless first. I don't know how much I can take of christianity but thank you for the reference.

How did you 'blue' my name? Shit! there is so much I don't know about posting!!

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566. Christopher Hitchens on Religion

Comment #48432 by Veronique on June 8, 2007 at 12:09 am

Hey Baeoz. I'm fine, thanks. Been writing an article on climate change and population. I want to send it off for consideration for publication but not sure where to start. Any ideas? I am new at this and pretty naive.

The book is good. I'm learning about the deliberate lies told by the christian writers (and they confessed to these lies) in order to entice the 'heathens' into their organisation. It's right up my alley. Good to find cited references to the tissue of lies that the wholly babble actually is.

And the wine is good too, hehehe
V

567. Christopher Hitchens on Religion

Comment #48422 by Veronique on June 7, 2007 at 10:27 pm

This post is off topic (sort of).

However it was who recommended reading Joseph Wheless' Forgery in Christianity, thank you very much.

It has just arrived and I am reading the forward. It was published in 1930. All I can say so far is that RD, AC Grayling and the Hitch are worthy successors to this brand of anti-religious polemic.

Wheless pulls no punches whatsoever. It is going to be one enjoyable read.

Off for a wine, a lie down and the book!!
Cheers
V

568. The planet hunters

Comment #47289 by Veronique on June 4, 2007 at 1:54 am

I am fascinated by research of this kind. I am fascinated at the capacity of cosmologists in their unending search for the possibility of planets that may contain the same physical parameters for the evolution of life.

Bless their immense curiosity (and the 'Race to Find', of course!) that drives them forward. What a wonderful obsession! We should be thankful. Man's curiosity and questioning drives are what take us forward. That may sound a bit smarmy, but I hope you get my drift.

Even though it appears that science is lagging behind in the scholastic stakes at the minute, I have no doubt that this is a hiccup and that science will, once again, rise to the top of study programmes that are delectable, informative, exciting and driven.

To DavidJMH and Biz, I have nothing to say except that neither of you even count for an ant's footstep.

Cheers
V

569. Atheism shall make you free

Comment #46875 by Veronique on June 2, 2007 at 3:29 am

James the Doubter

Click on the 'atheist help and resources' at the left hand top of this page. I only read the entries a week or so ago, and I was filled with utter compassion for the posters there. It must be such a hard road.

Take care friend
V

570. Atheism shall make you free

Comment #46861 by Veronique on June 2, 2007 at 1:31 am

I checked out the comments page to the Australian Michael. You are right - a lot of loons. I posted my own comment, reproduced below:

Only 25% of Australians don't believe in god?? I can't accept that. Someone is telling one huge whopper. Unless people are still recording the faith into which their parents had them baptised or christened. Surely that percentage doesn't include the children under 3? And what about our 70,000 Jedis? Even my plumber smiles a little sheepishly and says he only pretends to others that he believes in god; so much for Census stats.

She got the Irish wrong too. As of earlier this year, Ireland reported 12% as not believing in god, up from 1% 30 years ago. Hmmph.

At least she 'suspects' that god is man-made. She's a lot further along the track than numerous others. And while faith has nothing to do with IQ, neither does reason. It helps a little to be sure, to be sure. She just needs to say that she doesn't believe out loud and in print. She wouldn't lose readership and she could bop her editor over the head if he/she demurred.

I would also like to see the studies on identical twins she mentions. I am almost certain that if a child were to be brought up with no contact with the god concept and was taught to look, wonder, marvel and find out about nature, god would never enter into his/her world view.

It's the permeation of religions throughout the cultures that brings it into the focus of children. That's all. Without that, no one today would, or even could, think up such belief structures with all their attendant stories, rules, prohibitions etc. Religions have had so much time to infiltrate culture that they feel entitled to more airtime than they have ever deserved.

Go Michel Onfray – I haven't read his book yet, because some bugger of a friend of mine borrowed it as soon as it arrived. Never mind, Darwin's Dangerous Idea is absorbing me at this point.

Cheers
V

571. A Look at Regent University

Comment #46809 by Veronique on June 1, 2007 at 6:44 pm

Don't forget the Patrick Henry College in your lists. It was mentioned in an article on this site months ago. They have some 80 odd graduates in the White House and their intent is to train graduates for this purpose.

They usurped your own Patrick Henry's name, the bastards!

The religious right movement is well advanced in your country and is so well funded as to be a bulldozer rolling over your Constitution, your rights and and your checks and balances.

Well might you be frightened. For some reason, a lot of people don't take lunatics seriously. To stop them being in charge of the asylum is going to be very difficult. And I don't think I am scaremongering.

From here in Australia, it all looks very chilling to me.

V

572. Groundbreaking Research Has Scientists Talking With Apes

Comment #46369 by Veronique on May 31, 2007 at 3:47 am

Can someone tell me why a freshwater swordtail fish (maybe 4" long at maturity) would develop a long 'tail' that appears to impede his movement around 'obstacles' in his swimming life. He's quick and moves well; why would he want a 'tail'? Swordtails are live breeders. It's just weird to me.

Is it the peacock type display? I don't even know what compatibility, gene wise, is involved in the generation of their species or variant.

Help
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573. Groundbreaking Research Has Scientists Talking With Apes

Comment #46341 by Veronique on May 31, 2007 at 1:46 am

I can't recall where I first found this video of bonobos. It's a TED presentation with Susan Savage-Limbaugh with the bonobos she works with.

I was stunned. I was (and still am) gobsmacked.

There is no way you can watch this without thinking: if bonobos' vocal chords had developed to the same extent that ours have, they would be talking and verbally interacting with themselves and us. We tend to be very arrogant, I am afraid.

My cats (I don't have dogs) are well aware of key words to which they have become accustomed and they know by my tone and those words what I am indicating. They are pretty good and I am pretty impressed. I have learned to teach them simple commands, each of them has his/her name and I never use the generic 'puss'. Each one responds to his/her name and the others don't buy in. Feeding time is the exception. They bitch at each other all during the preparation of their food. I can understand that. They live in an enormous enclosure that is built onto the back of my house and is part of the house. The ones that I let out (one at a time) follow me around similar to dogs; they never leave me and always come to my calls by my using their names.

Each name starts with a harsh consonant that is immediately recognisable to the owner of that name and each one was taught individually what his/her name is when he/she was a tiny kitten.

Having said all that, cats haven't the same intellectual ability that dogs have (for starters, cats aren't camp followers and don't fawn for acceptance and affection, though they give heaps of affection - my mother called it 'cupboard love'; I am a bit more generous than that).

Nevertheless, it is interesting to realise just how much they understand and can be trained (pitifully little, really, but they are smart in their own living capacity as, I guess, are all animals).

The bonobos in this video clip are astounding. I urge you all to watch it.

http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/76

My fish don't respond in the same way, but hey, they know me and my big bulk looks nothing like a heron to them, so they don't swim away from me - not bad for little fishies: they vacuum my fingers for food and remember from day to day what is actually going on between me and them. Some of the females allow me to pick them up in my hands when they are exhausted from the males hassling them to drop their eggs. I take those exhausted females inside into a tank where they can relax for a day or so. I don't think they remember that I am going to do that. Their exhaustion is what renders them amenable to my hands, but I think that they do know that I will never hurt them. I muck around in their space, clearing it of algae and they swim around me and certainly don't appear to be frightened. Of course, this happens on a daily basis, so they don't really have time to forget.

I have learnt to pooh pooh the idea that they have 5 second memories. They have to make a living as well as every other animal and have to be able to remember what will keep them alive. Go fish!

And no smart comments from any of you about cats and fish! thank you very much! The cats don't even seem interested in the fish. They don't like getting their paws wet.

Cheers
V

574. Dawkins' Christmas card list

Comment #46012 by Veronique on May 30, 2007 at 2:40 am

This was my comment on a thread about the debate with Hitchens and Hedges reported on Alternet.

My comment was in reply to some bloke who said that Islam was evil and need to be destroyed by force. He said: 'Of course Alternet and its readers are always quick to bash Christianity et al into the ground and just as quick to apologize for Islam as "everyone knows it is a religion of peace."

Islam is by far the most dangerous religion on Earth and it should be destroyed by force.

My reply:

'As has been (and currently is) Christianity. Death, destruction and all in the name of bullshit. Any religion that indoctrinates its members into a totalitarianism of belief without the possibility of dissent is disgusting. Islam is the same totalitarian mind numbing belief structure that exemplifies Christianity; not so sure about Judaism.

Force? Destroy? I put the whole lot of you under the same banner of unreason. Live by the rules written by apologists and illiterates to boot? You must be joking! Why would I want to?

I hold that I am able to live my life quite properly, with compassion and empathy for my fellow humans and our cousins - the other primates. I could never adhere to a concept that I am special, listened to by a 'god'. That I hold 'dominion'? What a wank.

Our universe is grand and doesn't seem to stop. We may be the only really sentient beings - I don't know.

I do know that your religious right is as destructive as fundamentalist Islam, fundamentalist Roman Catholicism, fundamentalist Zionism and any other fundamentalist regime you may care to name (including Naziism and Communism, as practised by the power hungry and non-communist {but let's pretend that we are for 'the people'}power mongers that bubbled to the surface of human greed).

All religion (and anything that states that you have to 'believe') is dangerous and all totalitarianisn is manifestly dangerous. Is there a difference? I don't think so. Sway the masses into a belief system? Yuk, I cannot countenance that at all.

This may be off topic. but not really. I welcome comments on my comment.

Cheers
V

575. I'm Sure God is Scared

Comment #45649 by Veronique on May 28, 2007 at 4:42 pm

42. Comment #45616 by Wrought

I read through a lot of the blog entries on hogonice all posted by Steve H and then the oinks posted in reply to his blogs. He appears to be the sort of person who likes the sound of his own voice and his own opinions and relies on like-minded people to bolster himself.

As he's a retired attorney, I wonder how old his poor father was when they went to the synagogue to listen to Hitchens.

Despite Steve H's beginning comments in the article to which we are all responding, it looks as though he deliberately went to listen to Hitchens in order to gather enough ammunition to write his blog article for sychophantic readers of his blog.

Tut, tut.
V

576. Al Gore on Reason

Comment #45469 by Veronique on May 28, 2007 at 12:44 am

I can't read all these comments. They are driving me batty.

1.Al Gore is a politician. If you don't know what a pollie is, then you are naive.

2.Politicians say what they want to be acceptable to a constituency. No good alienating that constituency on the first take.

3.Al Gore is subject to irrational beliefs. So are a lot of people. At least he's not rabid.

4.Al Gore thinks that humans are contributing to climate change. Would anyone on this thread disagree? Have any of you had any success on this front?

5.Al Gore has travelled the world with his film (so he made money, so what!) and has opened up a lot, LOT of people to the incidence of climate change based on human activity since the 1850s. His world travel with his film has decreased the number of climate change deniers. Can you say the same?

6. Do you really take issue because Al Gore is not a scientific purist? Can't you see the net benefit of what he has been doing with his film and his book? Has anyone of you been able to match his global impact?

Why is it that you guys want to push his disqualifications when he has been able to lift people's consciousness to the point where they are taking notice of climate change? Is it a bad thing that he has appealed to their understanding of climate change while also exhibiting his 'belief' in some 'higher being'? Is he a lone prosetyliser for climate change? I don't think so.

He's a 'name', for god's sake. Why can't you give him credit instead of vilifying him for having been brought up a Southern Baptist and mentioning Adam and Eve (most of his audience would identify with that anyway).

Let him be; he has done more for the understanding of climate change than any one of us of this comment thread. Just stop it.

So he's rich and most of us aren't. Is it possible that I smell intellectual superiority and jealousy here? I would hope not. Please understand that what Gore has been able to achieve, is more than the sum total of all posters here; just stop being petty, erudite tossers.

Now, go on, vilify me. Hit me with every scientific and exclusionist argument you can muster. You haven't added to a global understanding of climate change. Gore has. I don't hold with any irrational belief, but the world is a 'real' place and he has done well. Now get off your soap boxes and applaud him for things you have never achieved and, I might add, are unlikely ever to achieve.

Somewhat disappointed in the tone here
V

577. Al Gore on Reason

Comment #45467 by Veronique on May 28, 2007 at 12:12 am

Rebel

You didn't answer my request to be able to call you Rebel, so I am taking the initiative:-)

You are more than able to post your comments here, you just have to develop a thick skin, and I think in your posts and the replies you receive and the fact that you grew up in Mexico means that you have developed a thick skin. I, for one, applaud your putting your comments up here.

You are quite correct to make the point that a lot of people posting here are not intellectuals; that some are deeply angry at the religious tosh they have been subjected to and this virtual community allows the expression of that deep anger.

Please do not stop posting and take little notice of the replies you receive unless those replies add, in some net way, to your growing understanding of life in a religionless way.

You are OK Rebel. And to the rest of you, have none of you ever been young, disillusioned and bloody angry. Let this bloke be. Help him if you will, but please stop denigrating his attempts to articulate what he feels. He's a passionate young man and, if anything, needs instruction and information, not the push.

Have a heart
V

578. The Art of Handling Thetans

Comment #45425 by Veronique on May 27, 2007 at 5:22 pm

7. Comment #45227 by Big T

I love your numbers game!

Now, if you really want to serious (ie. waste your time) translate all RD's names back into Hebrew and apply the Hebrew numbering system to each letter and add the numbers up that way:-)

Wrought

You must have been young. Glad you didn't pursue the rubbish. Use their pamphlets to light your fires. DON'T let those papers near your person, they may be impregnated with some chemical that is designed to draw you back in:-)

All good fun
V

579. Aiming for knockout blow in god wars

Comment #45410 by Veronique on May 27, 2007 at 3:50 pm

20. Comment #45239 by bouwe

Bob Hawke grew up in the Anglican Manse in the street behind the street in which I lived as a child. So I have never been absolutely convinced about his atheism. Mind you, he may have been a recovered Christian. For all that, I suspect most of our pollies are Anglican or Catholic even if only by lip service.

29. Comment #45251 by Bonzai

I didn't listen to the 2006 Massey Lectures so I can't comment. What I can comment on was the absolutely heart rending and angry 2005 Massey Lectures by Stephen Lewis on HIV/AIDS in Africa. Somerville wouldn't have been able to top those if she can't think logically. Lewis was extradordinary (I even wrote to CBC and bought a copy at an exorbitant price!!)

44. Comment #45357 by msv

TGD was mild as hell. Hahaha. Love it. It's obvious you are not taken in by eternal damnation:-)

I would love to see RD in Australia. The bugger of it is that I would have to travel (by plane, no less) to get to whichever city he would speak in. My count of Aussies on this site stands, so far, at 16. I agree that if RD were to arrive in Australia, he would be assured of a large and appreciative audience.

33. Comment #45260 by Russell Blackford

Thanks for the links. I read your review but haven't been able to access your exchange with Somerville. Will contemplate joining enotes. I enjoyed your article.

She is a contentious person, no doubt. How can an ethicist be a woolly thinker? I would have thought that, at least by training, she would have absorbed critical thinking somewhere along the line. Ho hum.

Cheers
V

580. The root of all evil?

Comment #45217 by Veronique on May 26, 2007 at 11:26 pm

I reckon there are about 9 or 10 Aussies on this site bouwe.

Thanks electric monk for the Age article. I don't buy papers and sometimes get caught up on other news sites, so I hadn't seen that one.

I have thought of taking a survey in my own little town as to how many god botherers there are.

My plumber just arrived with fish scraps for the cats and I asked him:

Ed, do you beieve in God... or do you just say you do?

His reply with a smile was: I just say I do.

This would be a hard survey unless it were annonymous and besides everyone knows me because of my blackboard quotes. So they may well lie rather than admit to me that they 'just say they do'.

OK, I have talked myself out of a survey. Damn!

I am looking forward to tonight's 2nd part and the inevitable news reports and comments threads.

RD is not militant unless you also call pollies standing up in the hustings militant. And we have that coming to us this year. Sob.

Hi Russell - is Combet militant? Was Hawke or Keating? Keating was wickedly caustic. Even retired, he hasn't lost his punch. He called Howard, a couple of weeks ago, a pre-Copernican obscurantist. Love it.

Cheers all
V

581. Aiming for knockout blow in god wars

Comment #45205 by Veronique on May 26, 2007 at 10:25 pm

Well. Somerville is 18 months older than I am and born in the same city as I.

She's received some awards in her time as well as Member of the Order of Australia for bioethics. Several honorary degrees, the last of which was criticised and opposed by many students and faculty who tend to see her as a homophobe. She lobbies actively against same-sex marriage.

Glancing down the references in wikipedia, she is also against euthanasia and physician-assisted suicide.

I guess we'll hear about this battle due to take place at the Sydney Writer's Festival. It is not sure whether RD will be present or only by phone. She says that RD is negative and that we should be seeking common ground with religion. Another apologist who just doesn't get it. Could be a firey exchange. She will instigate it, that much is clear.

She's off my christmas list, that's certain. (cultural reference only, thank you)

Cheers
V

582. The Art of Handling Thetans

Comment #45152 by Veronique on May 26, 2007 at 3:38 pm

Well, how fascinating. It's the first time I have heard of the process by which 'prospects' are found.

I have been safe from this sort of thing all my life.

The recruitment technique sounds similar to the one described to me by an ex-Sannyasin. You are picked because you are in some way 'special' and in need of training to release your potential that has been squashed all your life.

We can set you free! type of thing.

It's really no different from the recruitment of suicide bombers (Allah will be pleased) or the early selection of the sacrificial prospects in the old Aztecs' culture (you are chosen for a noble purpose).

It's all tosh and bravo to Ray, Phaderus, justme and djmagaro for resisting such stuff. Totalitarian mind control cults, sects, governments, religions, ideologies of all kinds etc. are all the same and all dangerous.

Well done and thank you for a terrific read on this gorgeous Sunday morning.
V

583. I'm Sure God is Scared

Comment #45029 by Veronique on May 25, 2007 at 8:32 pm

AC Grayling thinks we are seeing the end of religion in this up-frothing resurgence of violent faith.

He also says, interestingly, that religion has moved on; that a religious practitioner from even a few hundred years ago would not recognise what is practiced now as religious faith. I suspect Grayling is right.

That god is a human construct is not in doubt. So when you talk about what it might be like to be god, remember that. He/she/it doesn't exist except in our heads and he/she/it is comprised of the same unclear emotions, thoughts, fears and tears as the rest of us.

And maybe this is why people attribute supernatural, unknowable and inconceivable powers to he/she/it. People have difficulty understanding themselves; small wonder they don't understand god. Small wonder they are full of an inchoate fear that can become all-consuming.

The thoughts that flit, ideas that bite.
Hide away the sounds of the night.
(Apologies to Lewis Carroll)

As for the article - whoever wrote it had too much time on his/her hands. And doesn't understand Hitchens' acerbity. She should read his book.

Not worth the effort.
V

584. Teachers rebel over atheism promotion

Comment #45013 by Veronique on May 25, 2007 at 7:32 pm

Foxfire

Tell me how you get critical thinking into curricula as a core subject from primary school onwards.

It won't happen in Australia where we don't have school boards (and our Fed. Educ. Minister is wanting to federalise school curricula anyway).

As far as I am aware, school boards in America don't set curricula either. So how to force the issue? To my mind it is the only way to remedy belief systems.

It's not so much what to teach as how to learn that is the basic problem. Once they are shown how to learn then their curiosity is set free to wander over all and sundry. I thought that that was what education was. Not narrowly constrained within job prospect parameters.

Small sigh
V

585. God help us all - The No. 2 book on Amazon right now is a

Comment #45002 by Veronique on May 25, 2007 at 6:55 pm

epeeist

Unfortunately, yes, you are going to have to use terms like Christofascism and Islamofascism.

Fascism - a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism

konquererz is right to issue a definition. In religion, the dictator is god through his minion the priest, pope, imam whatever. Think of it:

complete power - god rules through his earthly representative, or the earthly being IS god (North Korea, old China and Japan until its defeat in WWII). New China under Mao. Franco, Mussolini, Hitler and later, Stalin all had the support of the Catholic Church. All ideologies each and every one; all totalitarian regimes each and every one.

forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism - the Inquisition, the wars perpetrated by the Catholic Church throughout Europe in the 16th century. The murderous sweep of Islam through North Africa and the Middle East, the death fatwas issued to suppress criticism and dissent.

regimenting industry, commerce – the tithes, taxes and control arm of the church over who could manage commercial transactions. Russian so-called communism with state run everything.

aggressive nationalism – think Germany in the '30s and prior; France in its revolutionary days; Rome before it fell.

racism – Germany again and France. Think the Jews, follow their history and you'll see racism; Slavery, denial of human rights to the underclass; America, now in the Middle East.

Someone else will expand on these examples.

Any ideology that promotes total control over a population (especially with its eye on conquering the whole world and bringing its peoples under that control) is fascism.

The extreme Christians in America and elsewhere are no better than the extreme Islamists and Zionists in the Middle East. No better than Mugabe and any other you can name.

So yes, you have to use those terms to describe them. To cringe at the term is to be blind to what is happening. Fascism does create fear and hatred in both church and state. It is very dangerous. Call it a spade. Church support for fascism is because the church itself is fascist in make up.

I would like to, like Grayling, see this current global situation as the death throes of organised thumping religion but I am not convinced by his arguments.

Read Hitchens, especially the last three chapters. They are as chilling as I have ever read. I wish I could write as well as he. His punches are stunning, they hit you between the eyes.

Time for a cuppa
V

586. Angry atheists are hot authors

Comment #44495 by Veronique on May 25, 2007 at 2:11 am

Back on topic.

Angry atheists - I don't think so. Frustrated, horrified, frightened, yes.

That the 21st century can see the burgeoning of belief in bronze age mythology to the detriment of a rational understanding of the world in which we live is, indeed, frightening.

All the hard won work taken to describe our physical location is meant to evince a 'ho hum' from us? No wonder our well known people are coming out saying 'hold on a moment. We knew jack shit when the holy books were written (and from the view of a small core of people who wanted to increase their numbers so it didn't matter what BS was recorded, so long as it hypnotised the masses). We have come a long way since then. We have worked out how to substantiate evidence that they didn't know back then. We are moving forward and fast and our methodology is getting better all the time because we communicate with each other and open up the gaps in our understanding. We are trying to advance our understanding, not stay in an ill-conceived past.

That religiosity is growing and attempting to bypass these gains is enough to frighten all of us. That ID is being proposed as a scientific option to actual science is enough to horrify us.

And you want to call us angry? Wrong word. Absolutely and utterly frustrated. Therein lies the motivation for the spate of literature that is being published and will continue to be published in this fight to advance rationalism and negate superstition.

And well may it advance. It is absolutely needed. These are dire days. We have a fruit loop President of the US in charge. It is very dangerous for all of us. We stand to lose our world - the only one we will ever know.

V

587. Angry atheists are hot authors

Comment #44487 by Veronique on May 25, 2007 at 12:58 am

Brian

It is increasingly looking like 616.

Nero Caesar in Hebrew (where each letter is enumerated and I didn't make a note of the numbers-damn!) appears to equate to 666.

Gaius (284) Caesar(332) in Hebrew seems to match Caligula's dates and equates to 626. I did make a note of those numbers.

Simple subtraction means that Nero must have a numerical equivalent of 334.

This stuff came out of Tony Robinson's BBC show The Doomsday Code which I saw in December last year. It truly frightened me. Everyone he interviewed (well, nearly) was nuts.

Madness is not diminishing at all. Big T, fancy footwork there. I have never given any credence to numerology but it is incredible just how many people do!. It's as arcane as astrology and, I think, closely linked.

I despair
V

588. Angry atheists are hot authors

Comment #44482 by Veronique on May 25, 2007 at 12:27 am

Oh MEiM

Hilarious is absolutely right. What a bloody diatribe by Phelps!!

I just loved 'Fraudwell'. What a great moniker!

Thank you soooooooooo much for that link. I am laughing into my wine.

My little alimentary canals (the CATS) are looking at me as if I have gone mad. 'Food' they say, 'forget this crazy mirth, we want food. That's all that's important in our lives. Stop laughing! and feed us.'

Well, Phelps is convinced that Fraudwell is feeding the fires. And America is lost. So sad.

What a pair of dunderheads they are/were. And Billy Graham has fallen from Phelp's grace as well. Isn't it gorgeous? They keep fighting amongst themselves for the crown of 'Biggest Dickhead Ever'. And they all win!!

How wonderful. Thanks so much. And the cats need food!!
V

589. Christopher Hitchens Is a Treasure

Comment #44476 by Veronique on May 24, 2007 at 10:48 pm

LookToWindward

I ordered mine from Amazon.com; it arrived within ten days. I have said before that the arcane world of publishing is more fraught with unknowns than the bible.

I have decided to get all books from Amazon.com. I have only ever used Amazon.co.uk once and that was because it wasn't available in the US.

All that happens is that you end up with two different accounts. That is manageable.

Cheers
V

590. I Don't Believe in Atheists

Comment #44471 by Veronique on May 24, 2007 at 10:28 pm

Thank you Eccles for that link. It's obviously an older publication, but hey, these attacks are not just the current ones. There's a lot of literature out there. I just didn't know about Wheless.

I'll see if I can get it from Amazon.

And, congratulations on your withdrawal from the bed of the Catholics. It's no good feeding them. The protection offered by atheist writers everywhere is necessary. (Logicel will love my language here!!)

Thanks
V

591. I Don't Believe in Atheists

Comment #44432 by Veronique on May 24, 2007 at 5:26 pm

39. Comment #44404 by Wrought

Beautifully constructed posting, you have done a great job.

Unfortunately now you have put it into language, it will be corrupted and used against you:-). Bear up.

Thank you for that considerable effort. There is no point in my posting anything after having read yours. Claps hands in appreciation

Hats off to you
V

592. Despite what the scholars say, God isn't dead yet

Comment #44264 by Veronique on May 24, 2007 at 12:08 am

Thanks Karl

Had a quick squizz down the page. Shes seems uninteresting to me, so I won't bother with her.

I prefer Adams & Willams as well. Crittenden, I often listen to because it's at a time I have RN on. Sometimes, some interesting speakers, like Spong last week.

Thanks
V

593. Prayer can improve physical health

Comment #44218 by Veronique on May 23, 2007 at 5:59 pm

How old are you Aussie? Standards have been falling for decades.

It was part of the push for inclusivity against the perceived exclusivity. All it really meant that everyone was tested on less stringent criteria. And it kept the students who may have gone into the workforce at educational institutions in an attempt to pull up our proverbial socks when gauged against an international community.

So now, we have less skilled tradespeople because the kids were brainwashed into thinking that as graduates they would earn more dosh.

And we have more graduates in unskilled jobs because we didn't look to the concommitant necessity of funding further research at the same time. Pathetic.

Unfortunately, standards had to be lowered to allow for more enrolments. And so it goes on, down the slope to mediocrity.

I remember the Russians used to (I don't know whether they still do) accept students for university enrolments only after they had left high school and been in the workforce for either one or two years (Can't remember which).

As a result, Russian universities had the lowest first year drop-out rate in the world. This, because the potential students had already weeded themselves out.

I am glad I am old
V

594. Richard Dawkins to appear in Second Life

Comment #44217 by Veronique on May 23, 2007 at 5:46 pm

Friend Giskard

Thank you for that link. I have saved it, because it is worth reading through again.

I read the whole thing, from Jonathan Rowe through Chris Ho-Stuart and his commenters to PZ.

PZ is by far the best commentor of the lot. I was slightly taken aback by Rowe, but understood why he was saying what he did. Ho-Stuart merely commented on Rowe without having thought it through.

PZ got to me because he did think it through. To begin with, there is no time for tea, cookies and avoidance of the religious issues. You only have to trawl the web, to see the increasing stridency and burgeoning intolerance of any religious stance. The slip over to evangelism is a breath away from moderate religious thought. And it is being actively promoted.

Sure, RD, Harris, Dennett & Hitchens et al are strident as well. But they argue from very different bases. RD & Myers are worried about the future of science and rightly so. Dennett, Harris and Hitchens are concerned about the growth (or potential lack thereof) of philosophical enquiry, intellectual development and open dialogue becoming tainted with overt religious belief and thus hamstrung. They all argue very well from their own standpoints and make fundamental points about the dangers of religion and the underlying tenets of religion. They argue for rationalism against faith. They have to. Rowe's and Ho-Stuart's gloves have to come off. Trollope's world is no more.

All of them and all of us are concerned with the whole lot going up in smoke as political agendas become overtly religious and even more divisive.

As a world, we can't afford this. And the threat of religiously tainted wars with nuclear weapons, for god's sake, appears to be getting closer and closer.

I can see that with stridency on both sides, there is (and we are seeing it) the potential for clashes. Surely that is better than taking the softly, softly approach proposed by both Rowe and Ho-Stuart? Do you think I am right that there just isn't enough time to gently swing everyone to moderate religion and slowly attempt to argue that religion has to grow into the 21st century and become tolerant of secularism?

Cheers
V

595. Send The God Delusion to your MP

Comment #44213 by Veronique on May 23, 2007 at 5:12 pm

bouwe

I asked my book seller to get Harris' books in early Feb.07.

She phoned to say she couldn't. So I ordered them through Amazon. Apparently there is some deal throughout the arcane world of publishing that some publishers won't release through other publishers in different countries, until many months have passed. It's now May; she got Harris' Letter to a Christian Nation in the middle of April - still can't get End of Faith.

She can't get Grayling's Against all Gods yet.

Interestingly, in Nov.06, I bought my copy of TGD at her bookshop in paperback. Now it's only just being released in paperback in the UK.

I think that very, very recent publications published outside Australia don't hit our shores for some time.

As I said, it's an arcane little publishing world.

BTW what has happened with the publicity that was to surround the handing out of TGD to the 645 UK pollies?

Cheers
V

596. The God question

Comment #44074 by Veronique on May 23, 2007 at 9:01 am

It is good to see someone outside the Xtian community reviewing TGD.

I am sure that this is why the review is so clear. For all that, CJ22, it's great to see this review published and in Pakistan. I clicked on the link - can't read anything, don't know the language, but it looks like an interesting paper.

The article headings that were in English indicate an interest in spiritual pursuits and look as though they deal with such topics in a 'literature' sense anyway.

Refreshing
V

597. Despite what the scholars say, God isn't dead yet

Comment #44044 by Veronique on May 23, 2007 at 8:15 am

Thanks Russell

I have not heard of her either. Her article is just ridiculous twaddle. She appears to have a complex of sorts that colours the twaddle.

As for lists, I didn't even know we had one. Who does make them up? How do we find out? I trust she is the 100th entry on the list anyway.

I know that I can talk off the top of my hat, but it only goes onto this thread, not into the SMH. Oh dear, oh dear.

Karl - I have not heard her on ABC RN's religious programme on Wednesday mornings (not that I listen every week). Where does she appear?

It's 1.15am so I'm to bed.
V

598. Prayer can improve physical health

Comment #43865 by Veronique on May 23, 2007 at 2:33 am

tassie58

I remember being sickened by this display during the mine saga. It was on the airwaves for all those weeks. How many people ended up with their 5 minutes of fame, spruiking shit. People developed enhanced views of themselves. You are right – all this xtian bullshit is happening in Australia. I have just never thought that it held much sway. But it's growing. AAARRRGGGHHH.

That's modern media for you.

Bloody Howard was on TV saying 'pray for rain'. What an outrageous thing for a leader of a (mostly) secular nation to say. I don't think for a minute that he believes anything much at all except his own advertising, but he has learnt to play the electorate. This time, I think he's going down. We'll see; 6 months to go.

Michael

I did a cursory check on your links. You are right; this reporter cherry picked the articles. However, I did notice that other articles also addressed spirituality and religion. They didn't really attempt to differentiate. And I am not a fan of meta-analyses. Worse, I think that these studies are conducted through social science parameters and, I'm sorry, they don't equate to science. Neurology would have been a better starting point than using subjects with an already set mind frame.

I am not saying that science is the only answer to the mysteries of life. But I am prepared to say that the old, tried scientific method doesn't work well with this sort of social science. That methodology used in the social sciences is a sort of aberrant child of science and can't be equated to the results that pure science is able to postulate.

What is more disturbing is that the MJA is prepared to compromise its standing as a peer reviewed scientific journal by even publishing not just the above article but, the others listed in your link.

I grew up with a research biochemist as my pater (hello Billy!). He entered academia in later life, published lots and gained his professorship. He ended his academic days as an emeritus of science which, of course, pleased him.

His distress at the lowered standards of scientific endeavour from his hey day ('30s) to his death ('90s) has stayed with me. I remember him as a man of passion, intelligence and enquiry. I feel that I have been blessed having had him as my father.

I entered teaching in the '70s. I had been taught in the '50s. By the time I entered teaching, I was horrified at the lack of basic levels of literacy and numeracy, Education polemics seemed to me to have adopted a soft approach to basic skills that I was to see throughout the five years I could handle that current system of education. I left bureaucratic teaching models! I couldn't fight City Hall. Pity all those students being taught new age shit.

I leave you now with my memories of my pater
V

599. Mysteries to Behold in the Dark Down Deep: Seadevils and Species Unknown

Comment #43835 by Veronique on May 22, 2007 at 10:56 pm

steve99

Thank you very much. Head does about flip. Must start looking more closely before opening gob.

Back soon
V

600. The Fastest-Growing Religion

Comment #43831 by Veronique on May 22, 2007 at 9:25 pm

pretomzee

I presume you are addressing me. You have made the mistake of confusing what I was relating about my friend to a comment in the next paragraph that was a general comment about people who believe in superstition.

Kym and I get on extremely well. She knows that I perceive her superstitious belief in the Universe as holding her back from a real perception of the world she lives in. She admits it's irrational and just can't let go off it.

At least we can talk, share coffee and other things about life while I persistently attempt to gently debrief her. It will take a long time. She understands my concern for her intellect and never disallows my debriefing. Neither of us goes overboard. Otherwise we wouldn't be friends.

There. Explanation enough for you?

Good
V