551. Why Islam Is Unfunny for a Cartoonist

Comment #226269 by hawt4dawk on August 7, 2008 at 8:40 pm

I had an Australian boyfriend once as well as a big interest in Australian music and history.Anyway, I seem to remember him having some pain in his knockers for some reason and he complained of being knackered. :)

552. Why Islam Is Unfunny for a Cartoonist

Comment #226268 by hawt4dawk on August 7, 2008 at 8:33 pm

Kkelly -- thewhitepearl is not spelled tubgirl :p


My husband took me on a brief tour of disgusting internet memes and I am now ill.

553. Why Islam Is Unfunny for a Cartoonist

Comment #226110 by hawt4dawk on August 7, 2008 at 5:55 pm

TWP -- I did google it after all. I reread the post and realized that you were a class act because you bought barnoculars. D'oh! (As the boys would say.) Do you mean your post or the Arabic post? And it's sambo.

edit -- have you taken martial arts?

554. Why Islam Is Unfunny for a Cartoonist

Comment #226097 by hawt4dawk on August 7, 2008 at 5:37 pm

NairB -- Thanks again for that statue! We really love it. After the 911 attacks, we were looking at some footage of NYC and saw the Statue of Liberty and I became all misty-eyed and said, "I hope they don't get our statue!" (I know it was a gift from France and you have a matching one, btw. :) )

TWP -- I laughed so hard at Clan of the White Lotus I had tears in my eyes! I love "kung fu" movies. Have you ever seen one called "Against the Drunken Cat Paws" ?

Also, glad Al could translate that page, because I was all creeped out for a little bit thinking someone was keeping track of particularly bad RDnet kuffirs.

edit--

What the heck are barnoculars? I figure I can't google that. --

Sciros - sambo, eh? That's why I love RDnet. I always learn something! :)

555. Praying for health

Comment #226033 by hawt4dawk on August 7, 2008 at 4:13 pm

J Mac -- Hey!

I was thinking I'd read of creatures which are self-fertilizing and that that could be a form "sexual reproduction" without gene-combining.

I can't stay on long tonight, just stealing a few minutes here... Was I imagining creatures that are self-inseminating? Too much sci fi? Ha ha.

Thanks for the titles. I'll check them out.

556. Praying for health

Comment #226025 by hawt4dawk on August 7, 2008 at 3:58 pm

TWP -- Alright, smart ass!! ;-)

(Okay everybody, this goes before TWP says I caught her being a smart ass.)

557. Praying for health

Comment #225733 by hawt4dawk on August 7, 2008 at 9:59 am

Twp - Never mind, I deleted the section you responded to, because your answer made me realize that I wasn't being clear. I was thinking I'd read of creatures which are self-fertilizing and that that could be a form "sexual reproduction" without gene-combining. I was asking about that rather than the disease-resistance comparisons of asexual vs. sexual reproduction. But it doesn't matter, because how diseases affect sexual vs. asexual reproducers doesn't really have any bearing on whether or not sexual repro developed in response to disease. Still interested to know which biologists are proponents of that theory though.

558. Praying for health

Comment #225697 by hawt4dawk on August 7, 2008 at 8:36 am

Many biologists think that sex, for example, is a response to parasitism. The continual mixing of genes that it promotes means that at least some offspring of any pair of parents are likely to be immune to a given disease.

But stop mixing those genes when religion comes in?

(edit: delete section)

Their hypothesis is that in places where disease is rampant, it behoves groups not to mix with one another more than is strictly necessary, in order to reduce the risk of contagion. They therefore predict that patterns of behaviour which promote group exclusivity will be stronger in disease-ridden areas.

Even though there was no concept of germs until recently and many of those same people drank and bathed in water they also defecated and urinated in? If they had an instinctual or underlying biological understanding of disease, wouldn't they have also avoided doing those things?

Isn't this covered by a biological predisposition to in-group/out-group orientation and territoriality, which other primates have without religion?

edit - Jane Goodall writes in A Reason To Hope of a terrible episode of violence -- a war really -- between chimps who broke off from the main group and took a small part of the larger territory for their own. She described what appeared to be hurt feelings on the part of the old group, which led to acts of territorial aggression and eventually to a kind of massacre against the "new group." Other than the initial acts of violence, the groups completely avoided each other.

To reframe primate in-group/out-group dynamics as religious behavior as a biological response to disease seems distorted (grasping at straws) and highly anthropocentric to me.

I put my objections in questions because I am not a scientist and I am voicing my own logical rebuttals to these ideas. So, if I am wrong about some of my assumptions, please let a biologist answer. Thanks. :)

559. Why Islam Is Unfunny for a Cartoonist

Comment #225185 by hawt4dawk on August 6, 2008 at 10:20 am

TWP - I'm fine, how are you? You've been away? We're moving soon so I'm busy, busy.

Your dogs already have little Ziggy Stardust "hair dos," so the blue streaks will be perfect.

560. Why Islam Is Unfunny for a Cartoonist

Comment #225116 by hawt4dawk on August 6, 2008 at 8:38 am

TWP -- your babies! Very cute. :)

561. Why Islam Is Unfunny for a Cartoonist

Comment #225095 by hawt4dawk on August 6, 2008 at 7:40 am

Here is a link to comprehensive reportage on global jihad that appeared last Autumn in the New York Times. I missed it before, because I'm not a regular reader, but after checking out some articles last night, I thought it might be pertinent to the topic of handling extremists and militants at home.

After my reading, I decided that deportation is a really bad idea, whether for expulsion of citizens, which is an idea abhorrent to many, including myself, or foreign nationals or resident aliens, because it enables extremists, who might otherwise be quite isolated from their fellow jihadists, to get more training and further entrenchment of their views. Imprisonment, as you will see below, also presents quite a problem.


http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/international/series/insidethejihad/index.html?scp=1-spot&sq=jihad&st=cse

Known to other militants as the father of Moroccan jihadists, he was convicted in 2003 of leading young men to fight Americans in Afghanistan. But here in Oukacha Prison, Mr. Rafiki, an Islamist cleric, is serving the final months of his sentence in style...


Through hunger strikes and protests, Mr. Rafiki and Oukacha's 65 other militant inmates have won perks �" including exclusive use of the conjugal rooms �" that make them the envy of the prison's 7,600 other inmates.


"'Why do they get much more rights than we get here?'" the advocate, Assia El Ouadie [King's liason], said the other prisoners constantly asked her. "'Do you want us to become terrorism prisoners, and then we will get those rights?'"


Even as more and more militants are imprisoned around the world �" often by governments with records of conducting extreme interrogations �" the prisoners are managing to gain a kind of crude leverage over security officials who are struggling to figure out how to handle them.


Draconian, or even strict, treatment of radical inmates can lead to prison unrest and public condemnation, particularly in countries with sizable Muslim populations. At the same time, officials fear that militants given free rein are more likely to turn prisons into prime grounds for radicalization and recruiting.


"More than any time in the modern history of terrorism, the prisons have become a key front in the war on terror," Dennis Pluchinsky, a former senior intelligence analyst at the State Department, wrote in a report for the United States government earlier this year.

He estimated that there were 5,000 jihadi inmates and detainees worldwide, not counting those held in Iraq and Afghanistan, and that only 15 percent had received life sentences or the death penalty, meaning the rest would eventually be set free.

562. Breeding for God

Comment #224839 by hawt4dawk on August 5, 2008 at 6:43 pm

Hello again: I didn't catch this series of articles when it was printed last Fall, but I found it quite disturbing. I read about militants in prison, a new Al Qaeda leader and how Al Qaeda uses media in the West. Thought you might be interested. edit: there's more but that's as far as I went before posting. I thought it relevant to the issues of deportation, imprisonment and prosecution of extremists and militants.

http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/international/series/insidethejihad/index.html?scp=1-spot&sq=jihad&st=cse

563. Evangelically Serious Science

Comment #224710 by hawt4dawk on August 5, 2008 at 12:26 pm

Teratornis -- I've read that your average Danish or Dutch bike is heavier, sturdier and, thus, slower than what's sold in US. You probably already know that. :)

I'm very concerned that there is so much more talk of offshore drilling right now. It's insane given pollution and carbon emission issues.

564. Embracing goodness, without God

Comment #224578 by hawt4dawk on August 5, 2008 at 6:58 am

Goldy -- Dog is not a naturally tender meat, so they have to beat them, often while still alive, to tenderize them. I've seen this "tenderizing" process on a documentary and it was a horrific sight.

565. Evangelically Serious Science

Comment #224572 by hawt4dawk on August 5, 2008 at 6:48 am

Styrer --

Even if we don't agree on Richard out-and-out name-calling, I will emphatically agree with you on the vulgarity and repulsiveness of these ideas:

..vicarious redemption by human sacrifice, the notion of new-born infants coated in 'original sin'

Entertaining such notions is shameful and sick.

For the young, pretty women on bicycles enthusiasts out there, have you seen this blog Copenhagen Cycle Chic? It's bike advocacy in high-heels. No spandex though. :)

http://www.copenhagencyclechic.com/

566. Evangelically Serious Science

Comment #224201 by hawt4dawk on August 4, 2008 at 9:43 am

Layla, Styrer,

Sorry to stick my nose into your dialogue, but I justed wanted to note that one of best tools Richard uses is his utter civility. He is deliciously civil and articulate and further, I wish he would come to my house sometime and read some A.A. Milne to me. :)

567. Breeding for God

Comment #223814 by hawt4dawk on August 3, 2008 at 12:58 pm

Goldy, Steve, Fanusi,

PMs for you. :-)

568. Breeding for God

Comment #223767 by hawt4dawk on August 3, 2008 at 11:49 am

Fanusi,

I wrote a long post and then I lost everything. I feel worn out!

Fanusi, first let me say that I think you've been mischaracterized. I would go so far as to say that certain persons have done their best to assassinate your character, to what end I couldn't guess, given they share your basic beliefs about Islam. I don't know you well, but you don't appear to me to be an extremist. When I said you've got a PR problem, I meant that you have helped to create this misperception about yourself, which hampers your ability to reach your goal. I think you made a tactical error in demanding your opponents to choose between one nightmare scenario versus another nightmare scenario. Asking the question is one thing and demanding an answer is another. As I've seen it, certain people have not been able to see around a scenario of governmental fascism and mass deportation since it was conjured in their minds. Much of what you've said afterward about only needing to deport a small few extremists to get the message across and about moderate Muslims and protecting apostates is lost in the wind. Also, I'm sorry to say you have come across as self-righteous in the process. The reason I suggest this was a tactical error on your part is because I assume your main goal is raising consciousness about a present danger of religious radicals trying to fan the flames of fear, mistrust and hatred of the Unbeliever that lie at the heart of Islamic doctrine. It's right there in the books, not just being twisted by Imams and the like, as even Al-Rawandi has pointed out and that is why moderate Muslims are not likely to be the buffer between the radicals and the Unbelievers that others hope they will be. The reason I think this lies at your doorstep is because you did say it is a matter of real world morality and choosing between the lesser of two evils, so it is not as if the aforementioned scenes were merely in the imagination of your opponents. I understand why you are frustrated and why you feel others are not listening to reason and I also see why others are feeling frustrated and appalled.

I would make the analogy that this has been like witnessing a dogfight between several watchdogs who all happen to be guarding the very same thing.

I would also like to excuse myself from further participation in this thread, because I have rather a lot of work to do right now. Feel free to PM me. :-)

569. Breeding for God

Comment #223684 by hawt4dawk on August 3, 2008 at 6:43 am

they are more likely to follow that, since it's a religious ruling, instead of a secular court's ruling.

Ugh!!! **tears hair**

That's one of the real problems here -- getting back to the reason we're all here in the first place. Facts are, moderates or not, Islam or not, we're dealing with systematic irrationality. Yesterday as my husband and I drove past a church with another sign that read, "Jesus, Our Savior", I commented, "Since I've opened my eyes to the place of religion in society, I am shocked at how it permeates everything. It's everywhere." And he said, "It's kind of threatening, isn't it? It's like a mass psychosis."

Steve -- getting to your answer.

570. Breeding for God

Comment #223563 by hawt4dawk on August 2, 2008 at 6:47 pm

Funny, Decius! :-)

Regarding population projections, global warming and peak oil depletion are going to factor in rather unpredictably. The speed with which it is occurring is shocking to the scientists studying penguins. Some of you may have seen this:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1034590/The-baby-Antarctic-penguins-frozen-death-freak-rain-storms.html?

Explorer Jon Bowermaster: 'Watching penguins walking among the skeletons of their young is the most powerful evidence of climate change I have seen'

I know that some here have denounced Fanusi as fanatical or hysterical for proposing that citizens "supporting Sharia" be deported. He defined Sharia in practice as the kind the Taliban viciously practiced. There seems to be some confusion, so for the sake of simplicity in this discussion there is "Taliban-style Sharia" and "Beth Din-style Sharia" (for quick reference here is a link posted by Quetzalcoatl earlier

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beth_din )
.
Please correct me if I have oversimplified.

As I understand it, Fanusi wants deportation for Taliban-style Sharia regardless of citizenship, which Steve (and others oppose). Fanusi also has concerns that those who claim to want "Beth Din-style" Sharia because they want a wedge to drive in Taliban-style. That seems quite a jump, since there would have to be a bloody bit of revolution to enforce that, which would include the murder or imprisonment of current leaders and Islamic central control. If you're going to have a revolution like that, it doesn't matter whether you or not you achieved that kind of wedge.

Student revolutions backed by outsiders have successfully carried these types coups out. However, Muslim students with radical views should not be dismissed lightly. I am not saying that it is likely to happen in Britain. Given Britain's allies, it doesn't seem likely to go down that way. But given those attitudes polled, it seems as if little will be done to discourage, and some active participating may be encouraged, young people participating in more terrorist acts. I imagine Al Qaeda has found some of these polls rather encouraging.

For clarification, when discussing Sharia, who are we/you talking about now? The people who have already declared they hold radical views? Or are we talking about the moderates, who could go on perfectly well without the radicals, or get swept up in a radical revolution?

Because if we're talking about radicals, Steve, I don't think the reference to reformed neo-nazis is quite applicable, because they're not the same. Neo-nazis don't have an intimate relationship to successful, well-funded terrorist groups, who have declared themselves at war with the West and who have already killed people en masse. Usually, neo-nazis furtively target individuals and families. They don't have a Holy Book, although they may consider Mein Kampf to be such, which they share with millions of other moderate people.
I watched a few minutes of the "Dispatches: Behind the Veil" link Fanusi provided, enough to see Abu Usama make some very clear comments about "hating the kuffr", then I watched him make some very unclear comments dismissing those earlier comments saying they'd taken out of context. What's the follow up on this story? He's a fascist and he makes "hate speech"while, literally, hiding in the cloaks of religion. Is he a citizen? If not, has he been asked to leave the country? He sounds American to me.

I'd also like to point out to some that seemed to have missed it Al made a comment that he supported Fanusi's threat assessment, but he didn't support Fanusi's ideas about how to deal with that threat. I couldn't find the comment that had that exact quote, but here's similar:

401. Comment #222989 by al-rawandi

We mostly agree, me more than anyone, but no one wants to give a government power to penalize its citizens arbitrarily.

I 'm curious as to why Al thinks the sites Fanusi has been reading are "second-rate" or second-hand. What would be some more reliable sites to keep track of this stuff?

If you have that common ground, it might be worth getting back to through the haze of what seems like a misunderstanding. At least to me. If Taliban-style Sharia supporters were actually gaining ground in your countries, you would, like Gregg, join your military in fighting them or head on down to "come and get it" and get your own gear. But right now, Fanusi, that is a fantastical scenario to most people. It's like you and Al are on page 53 in a book and everyone else is on page 15. So, you've come across looking like you want to treat Muslim UK citizens like Nazi's treated Jews in the 30s. So, Al and some others have harshed on you. Some of you know how much I hate flaming and so that's been a big bummer to read. Fanusi, I don't think you're a fascist or a fanatic. I don't know you that well, but I doubt it. You are single-minded about Islam and maybe you're overreacting or your ideas for solutions are unsuited to the situation, but I don't think you're a hater. I don't know maybe I'm reading this thread wrong. But you've definitely got a PR problem in this discussion now and you really need to deal with that, because you and Steve, at least, are just not "hearing" each other now. And as far as what Nair B's contributed, I'd be interested to hear if his statistical analysis has changed your opinions at all.

There've been a number of excellent contributions to the discussion, especially enjoyed Bonzai's comments. Sorry no room to acknowledge every one. And I apologize if I have presumed too much in my judgments about what's happened in it and my right to comment on your relations to each other. I hope you guys will mend some fences or whatever the phrase is. Good luck in that! :)

571. Breeding for God

Comment #223393 by hawt4dawk on August 2, 2008 at 7:13 am

448. Spoo --

Took a link at your "Demographic Winter" link. Professionally speaking, they've got a nice page there. Not great, but much higher class than the usual propaganda. I say it's propaganda because you can't determine who is behind it in "About Us." The only telling thing is the Utah address. **blinking lights!**

In the second link you provided, I think the large numbers in African countries are meant to scare white people, but in largely agrarian economies people have to have lots of babies or they don't have enough hands to do the work. It used to be like that here in the States. In my family going back three generations, there were 12-17 kids in every family. At least 2 of them died as children and some didn't live long enough to reproduce due to disease and accidents.

I haven't read since Spoo's link, but I'll get back to it later.

In some places people are having more babies than they can feed and in other places, Japan say, they are not replenishing their populations. This does have the potential to destroy their core Japan-ness if they have to encourage that much immigration. So they are looking into robots. **laughs**. One reason birth rates are low there -- a much-discussed national topic -- is because younger Japanese women do not want to be domestic servants to their husbands like previous generations, while the men still have those expectations. The women have changed, but the men haven't. There are articles about this all the time in their papers. I remember reading of similar issues in Italy, which it has been mentioned as having has the lowest birth rate in the EU.

This issue of out-producing other groups has been around a long time, I think. I remember hearing that my grandmother and her peer group, while still young nursing students at Uni, were encouraged to have as many kids as possible, because "too many uneducated people had babies." Gramma had five, btw, and a career as Director of Nursing at the local hospital.

572. Breeding for God

Comment #223103 by hawt4dawk on August 1, 2008 at 1:16 pm

Thanks, Quetzalcoatl. So, it's almost like a non-binding arbitration process, which is to say, they voluntarily agree to abide by the decisions of whoever presides?

573. Breeding for God

Comment #223100 by hawt4dawk on August 1, 2008 at 1:12 pm

Gregg, Steve, Goldy, Thanks for the clarification from my post from last night.

Goldy mentioned that (Orthodox) Jews have their courts and I was wondering what courts do Jews have and are they of legal consequence or supersede U.K. law or, in Goldy's case, NZ law?

edited for clarity

574. Breeding for God

Comment #223088 by hawt4dawk on August 1, 2008 at 12:37 pm

339. Comment #222709 by Goldy

Interesting link about Islam in NZ. It's interesting that the Maori, well some, have taken to it. I read a statistic that up to 1/3 of US Muslims are African-American converts.

575. Breeding for God

Comment #222700 by hawt4dawk on July 31, 2008 at 6:22 pm

Actually I don't know for sure if Homeland Security or whoever drags people off in the middle of the night, so I wll retract that, but obviously Guantanomo Bay is highly controversial.

I don't want to detract from the argument at hand, by having everyone jump on an America's Sins bandwagon. We've all got sins and that's not what this topic is about.

576. Breeding for God

Comment #222693 by hawt4dawk on July 31, 2008 at 6:05 pm

Goldy, I realize that Fanusi attacked you and as far as I can recall he started out by being very insulting to you. I thought about mentioning that.

It's been a few hours since I began reading the thread and I do recall checking out the link someone, perhaps you, posted showing a BBC article about Muslim religious leaders condemning the 7/7 attacks and condemning terrorist acts in general. One kills one, kills all mankind, one who saves one saves all mankind. Is that what you are referring to? I thought that was great, touching.

Anyway, I have to rush off as we are getting my son to bed.

Just to make clear: I am not hotly defending anything. Just asking and trying to understand where people stand on the issues, because things got rather inflamed. It is hard for me to see the links between things such as BNP and election issues, because I'm not there.

Here for a long time, I thought that there probably was no real threat from Jihadists and that 9/11 was a rather freak thing that Bush & Evil Co. jumped on and twisted to scare the f**k out of everyone so he could get us into oil wars. I have actually apologized to an Iraqi family I met in my mall. He told me if they withdraw troops it will be a disaster. I wondered if he was a plant!! I tried to warn everyone in my family: this is the next Vietnam and no one would listen because of how freaked out they all were about weapons of mass destruction. It IS important to be clear on where you've got an enemy and where political factions are manipulating fears. But also to be careful not to give up so much ground you end up living in a society you feel totally uncomfortable in.

Some quick notes:

--here they do drag people off in the middle of the night to Guantanamo Bay and they don't have due process.

--Also, because America is so religious and consults Muslim leaders when discussing invasions of Muslim countries, Muslims have said in a 2004 poll that they don't feel marginalized they way that Muslims in Europe have described. I can find that source again tomorrow if someone is interested.

-- I loved what Fanusi posted about how Americans went home, because it played to the we're really good guys and we really care tune and we just want to mind our own business, which is what I really believe about my country and I now other citizens feel, BUT the truth is we set up bases all over the world in some cases really to keep the Soviets away, but we also engaged in long drawn out "police actions" and messed about nastily in Central and South America. How else the "battle hardened" soldiers to sent into Iraq in the 90s? I don't want to bash my country, but I want to note the truth there.

edit -- "we" "we" I keep saying, but many things were done covertly because the American people wouldn't approve, wouldn't cooperate. Even now Seymour Hersch has come out with an article describing a conversation that occurred in the Vice President's office about how to cook up a war with Iran, how to come up with an incident that would sell the American people on basically starting WWIII.

577. Is Killing Liberals a Hate Crime?

Comment #222617 by hawt4dawk on July 31, 2008 at 3:40 pm

Eric Blair,

Yes, it would be tragic anywhere, in any church, in any school, but it affected me in more strongly because I and other people I know attend U-U churches. And the idea that people would walk into that kind of place and start shooting people is specifically terroristic to my demographic.

578. Breeding for God

Comment #222598 by hawt4dawk on July 31, 2008 at 3:11 pm

Don't Muslims in Britain want Sharia courts to deal with issues, such as divorce and wills, at least, which given the status of women in Sharia is unacceptable, because it allows a community to oppress members of that community? Am I misunderstanding the question of the application of Sharia as it is being discussed in Britain?

Fanusi, before people are asked if they will do something they clearly think is ugly, inhumane and fascist, which is arbitrarily stripping people with a certain opinion of their citizenship, their livelihood, their connection to family and friends and deporting them, you must define what you mean by it the criteria. I suppose you are already working on that.

Here, I am not taking sides, but you've started attacking the man and not his arguments.

Second, does anyone here beside Fanusi feel that Islam represents a danger to UK and Europe from without and, especially, from within? Doesn't it? Aren't there fanatics in the countries at work nibbling away at greater and greater concessions to their beliefs? Aren't there fanatics holed up in their flats working out tactics? edit -- this previous bit is the part i meant to take out

Getting into the flames and the "Fanusi's nuts" just degenerates the argument. There is a great deal written these days about the danger the UK and Europe are in by supposedly reasonable, non-bigoted people.

edit -- oops, forgot to delete some stuff, but I'll leave it in.

579. Is Killing Liberals a Hate Crime?

Comment #222561 by hawt4dawk on July 31, 2008 at 2:33 pm

Pattern Seeker - the groups are different though. It doesn't promote an idea that's already fact, it discourages people from going out and doing copycat crimes (hopefully).

580. To beat extremism we must dissolve religious groups

Comment #222556 by hawt4dawk on July 31, 2008 at 2:26 pm

Decius -- It was in Arkansas. edit-- Bill Clinton came from there, but it is conservative. Loads and loads and loads of churches and billboards with religious exhortations.

edit -- Goldy, four o'clock in the morning.. even God doesn't get up that early!

581. Vicar supports Life of Brian ban

Comment #222551 by hawt4dawk on July 31, 2008 at 2:22 pm

Oh, he certainly means that he loves Jesus more than his wife and this is a hedge, a mild concession to Jesus' commandment "those that come to me that do not hate their mothers, fathers, wives, sisters, etc." (paraphrased, but the gist is there.)

-- oh, shergar...

582. To beat extremism we must dissolve religious groups

Comment #222541 by hawt4dawk on July 31, 2008 at 2:09 pm

Another thing I thought, Al, he must fart a lot!

edit -- Sargeist, I've been to ecumenical gatherings with my aunt and grandmother, who live in the South, where the Southern Baptists can always be counted on to bring Satan into the conversation. Freaky!

583. To beat extremism we must dissolve religious groups

Comment #222540 by hawt4dawk on July 31, 2008 at 2:08 pm

** chuckles **
Oh, Satan, he's so rude.

I rather like the sound of the call to prayer that I've heard recorded on Peter Gabriel's CD "Passion Sources", which also features the wonderful Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan.

584. Is Killing Liberals a Hate Crime?

Comment #222536 by hawt4dawk on July 31, 2008 at 2:03 pm

12. Comment #222485 by Eshto

Thank you for that elucidation, Estho. I say this as I have tears streaming down my face from the article. The only church I've been to in my town is the Unitarian-Universalist one and it is the only one where a teen who has just finished his comprehensive religious education can stand up in front of the congregation and formally declare, "I'm an atheist" and nobody bats an eye.

585. To beat extremism we must dissolve religious groups

Comment #222509 by hawt4dawk on July 31, 2008 at 1:40 pm

sev -- I don't know. I kind of liked this idea in the U.S. because they are so in everyone's face right now. It's truly obnoxious. They hold prayer meetings in the White House. They've got a choke hold on the public sphere.

586. To beat extremism we must dissolve religious groups

Comment #222504 by hawt4dawk on July 31, 2008 at 1:35 pm

Decius --

"it is of little help to attempt and find which dead person originated it and why."

Well, honestly, you and I discussing it isn't doing much at all, since we're in agreement about the perniciousness of religious beliefs in general.

But I just thought it was interesting to examine where the ideas might have come from even if it can only be speculative. I am interested in anthropology, cultural anthropology and cross-cultural comparison. **shrugs**

edit: I include this link just to show how this is still a major effort on the part of religious "conservatives" in U.S.

http://www.focusonthefamily.com/search.aspx/search?q=homosexual

My sister-in-law went through what is called a LUG phase (lesbian until graduation) that absolutely devastated her parents and really strained their relationship all because of OTHER people's negative attitudes toward homosexuality. Her parents said it wasn't even that it bothered them so much or that they thought she might go to hell or anything, it was the fact that they felt they would not be able to share news of her life with her girlfriend with anyone (most especially with older relatives) without facing prejudice and feelings of being thought to have failed her.

I guess I feel that any discussion which challenges moral assumptions could be productive. But here we are preaching to the choir, as they say. :)

edit -- moral or psychological assumptions

587. To beat extremism we must dissolve religious groups

Comment #222495 by hawt4dawk on July 31, 2008 at 1:20 pm

So it was Abraham's grand children that screwed it up. I can imagine a bearded Abraham (he lived to be 900 years old ya' know) rambling about the "whipper snappers" and their damn idols.

**laughs or snorts** That guy! He's probably thinking, "I laid one son on a rock to sacrifice him to God 'cause God told me to do it, I sent one out in the desert to die, because the old wife didn't like the concubine and told me to do it, then I went after that one some time later and said, "Sorry, son, let's do a nice father/son building project together," and LOOK WHAT THEY'VE DONE!!!!

edit -- you know so many gross things about Islam, btw, the urinating in the ears thing eww! :)

588. Breeding for God

Comment #222468 by hawt4dawk on July 31, 2008 at 1:00 pm

This is probably one of the most interesting debates I've seen on here and with very little (of unintelligent tactics like) flaming. Excellent work!

Immigration laws should be stricter in my opinion and I love everything for which our Statue of Liberty stands. Example: I know an unpleasant woman from Columbia, South America who obtained U.S. citizenship in the snap of her fingers by studying well for the test, getting a few letters of recommendation and lying through her teeth during the oath. Why? "'Cause it is much easier for me to travel with an American passport than my Columbian passport." She has expressed nothing but contempt for the U.S., except for what she can extract from it: her education, her job, her ability to travel with ease.

My only question of everyone/anyone is why do you assume you have to adapt a fascist government to deal with extremists? (And I'm sorry anyone who wants an entirely different legal system so they can successfully oppress rights that would not otherwise be oppressed qualifies is an extremist.)

In the U.S. illegal immigrants and sometimes criminal legal immigrants do get deported and it doesn't affect the liberty of other persons. I don't know about UK and European laws regarding this. What's really wrong with it? And I'm talking about deporting people who have been tried with a crime or been proven to not have permission to be in the country.

Don't you already have anti-terrorism laws, sedition laws, treason laws in place? Could these laws be put into practice to prosecute, for example, Imams who exhort support of Islamic terrorism among others? In our gentle, enlightened countries, we do crack down on crime. Why not come down harder on religious-based hate crimes to show that destruction of societies dearly-held values will NOT be tolerated? Why not do that now, before the problems get worse?

589. To beat extremism we must dissolve religious groups

Comment #222354 by hawt4dawk on July 31, 2008 at 8:59 am

A quick note on Abraham and Ishmael: It is highly unlikely, if they even existed, that Abraham would help Ishmael build anything, since in the Old Testament he sends him and his mother out into the desert to die! Such a loving father he was to his boys! Pppfft!

590. To beat extremism we must dissolve religious groups

Comment #222351 by hawt4dawk on July 31, 2008 at 8:55 am

Decius --

If the newly-created religion is able to take over and spread as a memeplex, the original cause which gave birth to a particular dogma becomes immaterial as to why fresh generations of believers will blindly follow it.

So are you saying there is no point in speculating on the ancient origins of why homosexuality came to be such a hot topic even in today's political climate as a result of religious hatred of it?

I think it is interesting to look at where those ideas came from because exploring it does more to dislodge the entrenched notion that there really is something morally reprehensible about it.

In fact, one of your points made me think of yet another theory.

I think this complexity can be better explained with a self-conceited power-hungry clergy, pulling shit out of their own arse and enshrining it into dogma.

They surely must have pulled some of their prohibitions "out of their own arses", perhaps. But it seems more likely that an anti-homosexual idea wasn't random. It is possible that it has nothing to do with population issues in the way that I suggest, but more to do with distinguishing themselves from another group that accepted or didn't even notice homosexuality.

or

Invent a crime, create a punishable offence and you will be able to lay hands on another man's wife and wealth.

create homosexuality as a punishable offence so you can seize their wealth!

Originally in my post, which became too long, I outlined the idea of a snowballing "memeplex" (good word) in the context of a polytheistic, multicultural society with competing priesthoods. For the monotheistic worship to out-compete all the others, the priests who promoted it would have to be particularly brutal as demonstrated in the Old Testament.

Back to:

Invent a crime, create a punishable offence and you will be able to lay hands on another man's wife and wealth.

Agreed. Strategies for stamping out competing religions. Kill the men, own the wife, take the wealth. Kill the gays, take their wealth.

Okay, so a greater force comes in and pushes Yahweh back into a pantheon. Jesus comes along (maybe, somebody did) and spawns Christianity (accidentally?), which is actually an adaptation of Judaism. He clearly says:

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." Matthew 5:17

So the whole process starts over again snowballing all over Europe picking up Pagan ideas (religious memes) along the way.

591. To beat extremism we must dissolve religious groups

Comment #222341 by hawt4dawk on July 31, 2008 at 7:44 am

Layla,

I agree with your sentiment about Persians. The Persians I've met have been cool, beautiful and kind. I fret a lot about what is going to happen with Iran and U.S.

I took a look at Islam when I was on my quest for a religion. At the time I was naive enough to have been impressed that it was the same God!. **laughs** The rigor of it, the structure, seemed a bit appealing, too. But I became violently ill while reading the Koran and I took it as a sign. :) If feeling turned off by the bizarre boy's club of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost prevented me from getting into Christianity, I had no hope of getting far into Islam.

592. To beat extremism we must dissolve religious groups

Comment #222336 by hawt4dawk on July 31, 2008 at 7:28 am

Goldy (and Layla) -- my mistake I misremembered that article and thought the incident had happened in Kabul. The word Talibanization was what stuck rather than "in Iraq".

593. To beat extremism we must dissolve religious groups

Comment #222335 by hawt4dawk on July 31, 2008 at 7:27 am

I wonder if it has to do with going from multiple Gods who had more arguments, dust ups and bad behaviour than your average net forum to one god....

Dr. -- this made me laugh out loud.

594. To beat extremism we must dissolve religious groups

Comment #222333 by hawt4dawk on July 31, 2008 at 7:23 am

Decius and Doc -- enjoyed this back-and-forth, quite thought-provoking.

Perhaps the anti-homosexuality idea is a meme that got absorbed into Judaism through practical tribal considerations from long ago prior even to the development of the one god.

For instance, there is an indigenous [edit] Peruvian [/edit] tribe, who live a subsistence existence high in the Andes herding llama and sheep. They've been largely immune to missionary work, because they live in such a remote, inhospitable part of the mountains. They believe in nature-related gods. They believe their spirits go to the biggest mountain within their vista and so on. They have a very high infant mortality rate, because at that altitude, if the temperature drops too much at night, it is too hard for a newborn's lungs to get oxygen. Even the adults find it hard to breathe. Because of this homosexual pair-bonding is very slightly frowned upon. This is entirely because they need hands to do the work to keep them all alive. It has nothing to do with morality or the sex acts or anything.

So let's say that this very slightly anti-homosexual attitude has occurred in the deserts of the middle east and simply amplified over time and combined with increasingly hostile and intolerant attitudes?

This would explain why religion isn't necessarily the first cause of an anti-homosexual attitude, but the major religions have become the major cause of perpetuation of homophobia by their criminalization of homosexuality (at least in their holy books) and they certainly can be blamed for the hostility generated by that criminalization.

595. To beat extremism we must dissolve religious groups

Comment #222146 by hawt4dawk on July 30, 2008 at 7:11 pm

Goldy - do you mean falafel sellers in Kabul? I thought it was Afghanistan.

As for noodles, family and shouting... I'm all about it. Tho' I try not to shout too much.

Well, off I go, just wanted to say "Hi"

596. To beat extremism we must dissolve religious groups

Comment #222141 by hawt4dawk on July 30, 2008 at 7:03 pm

Layla - Thanks for posting this article and for the additional information on the Qu'ran. I am impressed with you and Lol for breaking away. Other people on this site have done it from other religions, but for Muslims it seems like it must be especially difficult. It seems all-consuming with the rigorous prayer schedule and prescriptions for what to say and so on. Perhaps that is the wrong assumption and I hope I haven't given offense. I myself just began exploring "atheism" this year because my husband's anti-religious tirades were so upsetting to me even though I myself kept saying, "I just wish I could find a religion I believe in, one that makes sense!" Instead of just writing him off as having what I called "religious damage" from his upbringing, I asked him what he really thought about stuff. I also thought I needed a religion, because I kept hearing that religious people were so much healthier and happier. I've had quite the eye-opening since reading some of the books recommended on this site and hearing a number of Dawkins interviews. Still reading The God Delusion. May I ask, are you Persian? You don't have to answer, it's okay. Or you could PM me. :) Take care.

597. To beat extremism we must dissolve religious groups

Comment #222065 by hawt4dawk on July 30, 2008 at 2:14 pm

Hate to interject myself into the manly love and respect-fest between Al and Steve ;), but I am impressed with Al's decision to cut down on flaming. He can be fierce and strong without that stuff. edit -- delete, feel too embarrassed to say "balls" in front of all these Italian (and Irish/Kiwi) stallions. :D

Decius ;) I like "zealous meerkat". It has a nice ring to it -- too bad I didn't hear it before I picked my username.

598. Kung poo panda 'The Sex Lives of Animals' exhibit digs deep.

Comment #222000 by hawt4dawk on July 30, 2008 at 12:30 pm

28. Bugaboo -- that was really funny, thanks! I had seen the clip of his reading from Genesis before, which is really funny, too.

599. To beat extremism we must dissolve religious groups

Comment #221992 by hawt4dawk on July 30, 2008 at 12:14 pm

88. I would assume that you don't literally think it would be okay, but the joke just doesn't come across well in this format. It sounds kinda mean-spirited. Okay? That's all.

--edit-- esp. 'cause she's not here to sass you back.

600. To beat extremism we must dissolve religious groups

Comment #221982 by hawt4dawk on July 30, 2008 at 12:04 pm

84. It wasn't private, unfortunately. It was on the infamous thread where I upset your snacking, remember?

78. Dude, that was too harsh.