601. Why Do Some People Resist Science?

Comment #46334 by scottishgeologist on May 31, 2007 at 1:18 am

I think Nails has a good point there. Its all about the protrayal of science. It IS seen as geeky. Say the word "scientist" and people will think of some mad, eccentric egghead character surrounded by bubbling retorts, cackling remarks like "Ahahhh!!! Eureka!!!!"

Either that or the image is of a 70s era Open University lecturer, complete with knittted mustard tie and ill fitting cordurouy jacket with leather elbow patches (No offence to the OU by the way!!)

There is a SERIOUS image problem with science. It just isnt cool enough, or should maybe that not be "k3wl"?

Trouble is, how do you make it attractive, something with mass appeal without splattering it with "dumb text speak", and lowering standards.

Maybe the RI lectures are the way to do it:

The RI Christmas lectures are a great way to show how it CAN be presented well without dumbing down. Trouble is, programmes like that are the exception. There are very few decent science progs on TV now.

The best that TV gets, IMO, is the wildlife programmes - some of these are of an obviously very high standard. There is also a considerable increase in wildlife related tourism, certainly in a lot of parts of Scotland, so perhaps its not all bad. There is definitely a big demand and a big market for this type of biological science type documentary stuff.


Maybe people can relate to animals better than other science subjects? Just a thought or two.

602. Debate between Richard Dawkins and Robert Winston

Comment #46166 by scottishgeologist on May 30, 2007 at 12:34 pm

Steve99, you mentioned video experiences where you could not trust your own eyes. I am reminded of a set of optical illusions which appeared as a link from Randi's website www.randi.org The actual illusions are here:

http://web.mit.edu/persci/people/adelson/checkershadow_illusion.html


The other illusions on that site are good as well, but beware of any background music!

Unbelievable!

Which just shows the need for proper measurement and analytical rigour, instead of "it just must be because it seems like it!"

603. Debate between Richard Dawkins and Robert Winston

Comment #46162 by scottishgeologist on May 30, 2007 at 12:25 pm

Billy, some good points getting flagged up here! Re the Attenborough quote about the river blindness worm - thats a good one. I notice in another thread that you posted the wonderful Eric Idle parody "All things dull and ugly". Which says the same thing in an amusing way. Its in this thread:

http://richarddawkins.net/article,1142,Prayer-can-improve-physical-health,Tamara-McLean-theaustraliannewscomau

And as for that Pope as Antichrist confession bit - I challenged Wee Flea on that a short while ago - dont think we got a reply.

There are actually, I think, several doctrines that these people, and I mean evangelicals in a broad sense, "confess" but dont actually believe. "Pope as Antichrist" is one. I suspect "Eternal damnation in the flames of hell" is another. "Women to stay silent in church" would be another.

The fact is that these doctrines are actually embarassing to them. Which is why they dont preach on them very often. Cant blame them.

604. I Don't Believe in Atheists

Comment #45901 by scottishgeologist on May 29, 2007 at 2:51 pm

Going back to the title, "Does God Believe in Atheists" was the name of a book by "Dr" (ie diploma mill) John Blanchard, one of the UKs "leading Christian apologists"

Got to this link to find out the sort of stuff this guy writes:

http://www.johnblanchard.org/books.htm

And if you go through the list (if you can be bothered) note the comments on the book "Has Science got rid of God" All those reviewers with all those postnomials. Gosh they must be so clever.....

605. The Dawkins delusion

Comment #45898 by scottishgeologist on May 29, 2007 at 2:25 pm

Bonzai, you make a lot of good points there. Re wishy washiness - certainly a lot of "liberal" or perhaps the word shoudl be "nominal" christians are very wishy washy. They really havent a clue why they "believe" what they believe. "Going to church" for the social bonding often seems to be the most important thing to them.

And even among evangies, I have heard a few interesting snippets. A close female relative of mine (a Christian) once pointed out, on the death of an aunt, "I suppose she is in heaven now" Note: "suppose" Hardly a ringing statement of absolute "truth" OK that's just an anecdote, but I suspect that that degree of wishy washiness is actually more common than we think among evangies.

Certainly a lot of people I know who are "evangelical" supposedly, seldom talk about their "faith" - almost as if they want to keep it private. And just for Wee Fleas benefit, a lot of these people I am talking about are Free Church of Scotland members!

Interesting you mention Spong - I often wonder about him. He must be the best example of a "christian" who is virtually an atheist but just cant take that final small step! It seems to me that Richard Holloway is very similar. Holloway is also a fan of RD! He endorses the DVD advertised on this site!

606. Exorcism exercise for fired-up faithful

Comment #45643 by scottishgeologist on May 28, 2007 at 4:22 pm

Interesting that the church is called "New Life" This is the name of Ted Haggards church in Colorado Springs. Well it was his church until he got rumbled.

Are these New Life churches (and there seems to be a lot of them worldwide) related at all. Or is it just a name?

Maybe Ted was posessed by a demon....

607. Christian sports workers degree ridiculed

Comment #45465 by scottishgeologist on May 27, 2007 at 11:42 pm

NMcC - maybe a bit of clarification needed here - I gave two examples of Rangers songs simply because like all the kids in my school we were all Rangers fans. OK, there was the odd Hearts fan or maybe even Partick Thistle, but it was overwhelmingly Rangers. Not because of any current bias that particular way!

And yes, the words are wrong - shows how silly the whole thing is, doesnt it?

The catholics had their own songs and chants - I never seemed to hear them so often however. Maybe a few visits to Parkhead would have sorted that one out!

When I was at school the hatreds were almost palpable. However, 30 years on, from what I gather on my visits home, its almost disappeared. I used to see "F*ck the Pope" and "F*ck the Queen" grafitti regularly. Always abbreviated to FTP / FTQ. Seldom see it now.

Surely a sign that that particular religious divide is disappearing. And a good thing too. But I wonder if the divide is disappearing because people are growing tolerant, or because of secularisation.

(As a complete aside, I was talking to a rather well known Rangers fan (not saying who he is!) about what was needed to put a web site together as he was interested - I mentioned that after creating the pages, he needed to "FTP" them up to the web server. You should have seen his ears prick up at that!!!)

608. Al Gore on Reason

Comment #45131 by scottishgeologist on May 26, 2007 at 1:25 pm

Skeptic Jims point is good. The creationist viewpoint, generally, is that the earth was created "good" by God, that man (well, Eve, really, lets blame the woman) came along and generally screwed it up. Since then, it has been a place of condemnation (hence Satan as the prince of the World) Ultimately, there will be a "new Heaven and new earth" and jesus will return.

And all you atheists will BURN, BURN, BuRN!!!! Damn you all!!!

Actually, the Sun will become a red giant and expand and destroy the Earth, but lets not worry about that sort of "fact"

So the bottom line is this: the earth is fucked anyway, so why bother about all this green stuff? Thats just homo liberal lesbian, gaia worshipping, abortionist, earth mother BS. Fuck it. Drive your SUV, (but pray for lower gas prices) pollute, burn coal, oil, wood, Jesus is coming!!!!

609. Christian sports workers degree ridiculed

Comment #45126 by scottishgeologist on May 26, 2007 at 12:58 pm

The article states: "It is designed to help Christians build community relations through sport."

Community relations? Whats that? Surely the wy to build relations between communities is to leave the religion out of it and let the sport do the talking! Sport is a great leveller - we only need to think of the famous football match in the first world war- link here: http://homeboynet.wordpress.com/2006/10/17/letter-documenting-historic-%E2%80%98wwi-christmas-truce-football-match%E2%80%99-found/

Otherwise, the only reason can be proselytising. As a Scot, I am well familiar with our own particular brand of "sport and religion" which manifests itslef at every Rangers Celtic game.I went to a typical Scottish secondary school where it was commonplace to sing sectarian songs - always related to the Rangers Celtic thing:

Such as ( variant on the Sash)

" My father was an Orangeman
in the bygone days of yore,
when they hung (sic) the Pope,
From an orange rope
in the sash my father wore"

or how about ( to the tune of "Marching through Georgia):


"Hullo, hullo, we are the Derry boys,
hullo, hullo, you can tell us by the noise,
Were up to our necks in Fenian blood
Surrender or you'll die
We are the Londonderry Boys
Fuck the Pope!"

Now you might think this is the stuff of Buckfast swilling neds at Ibrox. Think again. Top legal eagles are guilty of this. Such as Donald Findlay , QC. And you dont get higher up the Scottish legal system than that. Full story here:

http://news.scotsman.com/scotland.cfm?id=594022005

Thats just one aspect of it. I didnt mention Marvin Andrews (Trinidad and Tobago) who played for Rangers for a bit. Apparently he believes that people can be resurrected from the dead. Arch-charismatic, born again nutjob, deluded to the nth degree. And guess what, Marvin Andrews features in the youth magazine of the Free Church of Scotland!!!!! Yes, David "Wee flea" Robertsons church.

Link here: (Its a pdf of the whole magazine so be patient)

http://www.freechurch.org/pdf/free/aprilmay07.pdf

Religion and Sport do NOT mix. Keep them separate. Please.....

610. Angry atheists are hot authors

Comment #44488 by scottishgeologist on May 25, 2007 at 1:00 am

Brilliant link to that video of Phelps. I just love the way these guys try to outdo one another to try to be the "True Believer" (TM) (as Pastor Deacon Fred would say.

And they are all so sure that they are right and that everyone else is wrong.

Been said that patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel. Could also add that religion is the last refuge of the nutjob.

611. Lightning damages Jesus statue

Comment #44375 by scottishgeologist on May 24, 2007 at 12:55 pm

Hey, maybe they could get a "fake (sorry, faith) healer" to heal the statue and put the arm back.

Oh dear, silly me, God doesnt heal amputees.....

www.whydoesgodhateamputees.com

Excellent site by the way.

612. Would the World Be Safer Without Religion?

Comment #44370 by scottishgeologist on May 24, 2007 at 12:49 pm

David Robertson said:

And the point of these questions is?

Quite simple really. You brought up the issue of Catholics and I just wanted to know what you made of catholicism. After all, when you were ordained as a minister, you took a vow which says:


"I do hereby declare, that I do sincerely own and believe the whole doctrine contained in the Confession of Faith, approven by General Assemblies of this Church to be the truths of God; and I do own the same as the confession of my faith"

The Confession of Faith unequivocally identified the Pope as the Antichrist. Yet you are saying that you dont believe it!!

Tell me what else do you not beleive that you publicly subscribed to? No wonder the fundies walked out of your church in January 2000....

If any of you are really bored, the details of this event are here (from Wikipedia):

Over a period from the late 1980s to 2000 some people in the Free Church of Scotland had concerns about allegations, both moral and spiritual, against Professor Donald Macleod.[1]

In January 2000 more than twenty ministers (some of whom were retired) refused to accept a decision of the General Assembly on this matter. Because of alleged contumacy, they were removed from their pulpits and forbidden to preach anywhere, and other ministers were given charge of their congregations.

Those expelled ministers and other sympathetic ministers now constitute the Free Church of Scotland (Continuing). They sued the Free Church of Scotland, claiming to be the legitimate owners of the property and assets held by the denomination. The court ultimately decided against them, and they deferred from pursuing the case by way of Appeal. They are less than 20% of the ministerial strength of the pre-2000 Free Church of Scotland


Sounds pythonesque, doesnt it?

613. Would the World Be Safer Without Religion?

Comment #44363 by scottishgeologist on May 24, 2007 at 12:39 pm

Billy

I think it might be the case that the swings in Stornoway are no longer locked up on a Saturday evening. Actually, i heard a good story about it -someone reckoned it was NOT to stop the kids "sabbath breaking" but to stop the drunks rolling home from the pubs doing themselves a mischief!

But its true, they did used to lock them up. The fact that they dont now begs a question or two. Has God called some minister on the phone to say "OK, its alright, I'm loosening and lightening up a bit - take the chains off the swings!"

614. Lightning damages Jesus statue

Comment #44360 by scottishgeologist on May 24, 2007 at 12:29 pm

All this thanks to God for his mercy style of BS reminds me of this highly irritating cartoon:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/aftereden/view.aspx?id=198

If you really want to feel irritated, check out the rest of these 'toons. They are ALMOST as bad as the Chick tracts.

615. Dental healer finds share of faithful believers

Comment #43949 by scottishgeologist on May 23, 2007 at 4:40 am

Hey a real live Tooth Fairy!!!!

I am sure that James Randi would like to hear about it - after all there is $1000000 waiting for this guy. Just think how that money could be used to indoctrinate, lie, deceive, cheat and bullshit. Sorry I meant to say "advance the Kingdom...."

But seriously, whenever I see pictures of these assholes with their arms in the air like that, I think "what a bunch of assholes"......

Do they ever look at themselves doing that? Dont they ever stop to think "I look like a complete asshole with my arm up in the air?"

Of all the deluded faith heads, the very worst are the charismaniacs who indulge in this sort of stupidity.

616. Would the World Be Safer Without Religion?

Comment #43768 by scottishgeologist on May 22, 2007 at 2:24 pm

Weeflea said: "Firstly religion has not fizzled out in Europe (try telling that to the Polish Catholics..."

So tell me David, are Catholics Christians? A simple yes or no will suffice.

Reason I ask is this: as an ordained minister in the Free Church of Scotland, you accept (as part of your ordination vows) the Westminster Confession of Faith, which states:

"There is no other head of the Church but the Lord Jesus Christ.[13] Nor can the Pope of Rome, in any sense, be head thereof; but is that Antichrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition, that exalts himself, in the Church, against Christ and all that is called God"

Do you honestly believe that the Pope is the Antichrist?

617. Prayer can improve physical health

Comment #43764 by scottishgeologist on May 22, 2007 at 1:47 pm

Billy Sands said: "amputees growing new limbs isn't quantifyable"

Funny thing is, and I have often wondered about this is that crustaceans can grow new claws - crabs regularly lose claws and grow new ones.

So new limbs isnt really a big deal - if crustaceans can do it, then the idea is already there. Presumably "God" "allows" this to happen amongst the crabs, so why doesnt she/he/it allow it among humans?

After all, praying for a new limb and then growing one - hey, that would kill atheism overnight....

Much more convincing than having some sort of vague "pain" in the back which gets "cured" after spending a few hours in the company of a bunch of "healing" charismaniacs.

618. Prayer can improve physical health

Comment #43750 by scottishgeologist on May 22, 2007 at 12:34 pm

All this "prayer" BS reminds me of that other BS connected with miracles which is equally stupid. Concerning the assassination attempt on the Pope John Paul II, Dawkins himself said:

"He suffered an assassination attempt in Rome and attributed his survival to the intervention of Our Lady of Fatima. A maternal hand guided the bullet. One cannot help wondering why she didn't guide it to miss him altogether."

Maybe those praying for him werent praying hard enough - maybe it wasnt "fervent" enough. You know , a bit more oomph, a bit more fervency, a bit more shreiking and pleading and hey, Fatima might have been able to make the bullet miss altogether. Or caused the gun to jam. That would have been neat. Hey, maybe that HAS happened, dozens of times - dozens of would be Popeicides averted by jammed guns brought about by "much fervent" prayer. Hah! Go on you godless atheists, prove otherwise!! Hah!

Prayer isnt just BS, its testable BS. And in every PROPER test ever done it fails. Fails every time.

619. Goodness without Godliness

Comment #42888 by scottishgeologist on May 20, 2007 at 4:18 am

Reg:
"Sold a Fender guitar amp to marry a faith head" hey that's serious.... thats about as serious as it gets, with the possible exception of throwing in a vintage Stratocaster as well.....

Imagine abandoning the sheer joy of "Gimme Shelter" for the saccharine horrors of "Shine Jesus Shine".... I feel for your friend.... deeply...

620. Four arrested in Iraq 'honor killing'

Comment #42881 by scottishgeologist on May 20, 2007 at 4:04 am

From wikipedia:

"Yazidi are exclusive; clans do not intermarry even with other Kurds and accept no converts. They claim that they are descended only from Adam."

Only decended from the male, so that's womens low status even lower then...

But hey, so called "Christians" in the west can hardly complain. After all:

(1st Timothy 2)
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

Note carefully, this is NOT Old Testament teaching, this is NT. So its not so easy for the faith heads to dismiss it.

Oh yes, I wonder what that new female moderator of the general assembly of the church of scotland makes of it all...

621. Pedal power takes Islamic shape in Iran

Comment #42433 by scottishgeologist on May 18, 2007 at 7:37 am

Hmmmm. Wonder if "snarging" is un-islamic. If so, what would the penalty be....

From the Urban Dictionaary:

Snarging: To gain erotic pleasure from the sniffing of bicycle saddles.

Traditionally, the snurger would be an old man and the target of his nasal attention would be a saddle recently vacated by a young lady.

"Hey! Stop snurging my saddle, you pervert!"

Link: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Snurging

:-)))))

BTW, I remember, a long time ago at school, that the word used to describe such a person was a "planth" Never, ever, ever heard it before or since. Ah, the joys of a Scottish education - old John Knox would have been proud.

622. Pedal power takes Islamic shape in Iran

Comment #42378 by scottishgeologist on May 18, 2007 at 6:12 am

Devolution, your comments were extremely amusing. Thanks for that...still chortling

But on the women and bike theme, presumably the Islamofascists are worried about this ever happening:

http://luthor.altervista.org/queen01.jpg

623. The Fastest-Growing Religion

Comment #42359 by scottishgeologist on May 18, 2007 at 5:37 am

Uzi:

A couple of points re your post: A member of the Glencoe Mountain Rescue Team (one of Scotlands busiest) has said that Glencoe is his "church"

Also, there is the fact that a lot of churches have been turned into indoor climbing venues - the steeples make a great place for a wall!

624. The Fastest-Growing Religion

Comment #42357 by scottishgeologist on May 18, 2007 at 5:34 am

Hey Yorker, your comment reminded me of George Carlins take on religion. Heres a link to it here:

http://www.rense.com/general69/obj.htm

Seriously funny, (esp the Joe Pesci bit!)

The Sun bit is here:

"So rather than be just another mindless religious robot, mindlessly and aimlessly and blindly believing that all of this is in the hands of some spooky incompetent father figure who doesn't give a shit, I decided to look around for something else to worship. Something I could really count on.

And immediately, I thought of the sun. Happened like that. Overnight I became a sun-worshipper. Well, not overnight, you can't see the sun at night. But first thing the next morning, I became a sun-worshipper. Several reasons. First of all, I can see the sun, okay? Unlike some other gods I could mention, I can actually see the sun. I'm big on that. If I can see something, I don't know, it kind of helps the credibility along, you know? So everyday I can see the sun, as it gives me everything I need; heat, light, food, flowers in the park, reflections on the lake, an occasional skin cancer, but hey. At least there are no crucifixions, and we're not setting people on fire simply because they don't agree with us.

Sun worship is fairly simple. There's no mystery, no miracles, no pageantry, no one asks for money, there are no songs to learn, and we don't have a special building where we all gather once a week to compare clothing. And the best thing about the sun, it never tells me I'm unworthy. Doesn't tell me I'm a bad person who needs to be saved. Hasn't said an unkind word. Treats me fine. So, I worship the sun. But, I don't pray to the sun. Know why? I wouldn't presume on our friendship. It's not polite."

Wonderful!

625. Television evangelist Falwell dies at 73

Comment #41345 by scottishgeologist on May 16, 2007 at 1:07 am

Looks like our old friend Phelps is quick off the mark:

http://www.godhatesfags.com/fliers/may2007/20070515_jerry-falwell-funeral.pdf

626. The Creation Museum: Prepare to believe

Comment #41340 by scottishgeologist on May 16, 2007 at 12:32 am

"Please continue to pray for us as we are now just 2 1/2 weeks from our May 28 Grand Opening!"

Why? Why pray at all? Presumably the Big Fairy Up There is watching and listening. DOes he think, "Hey lots of these guys giving me lots of praise and prayer, yes, I like that, I need lots of prayer, else I'll do some smitin' and rapin' and pillagin' , but these guys are "fervent" in their quiet time, I'll make sure its a success".

Creation Museum: PTL! Raise his sweet name! Glory!

Or is it a case of "Hey you lot, you havent been obsequious enough to me, RESPECT dudes, I need prayer and lots of it to feed my ego. So I am not going to allow it to succeed. So there! F*ck you Ken Ham. (Ham was cursed anyway. And beside pig flesh is unclean) Nah, nah, nah, nah....."

Creation Museum: He must have other plans. Satan is at work. Must be homos on our staff. Or single mothers. Or blacks. Or Catholics. PTL! etc etc etc....

627. The Creation Museum: Prepare to believe

Comment #41339 by scottishgeologist on May 16, 2007 at 12:23 am

What will be interesting of course will be the response from the "reasonable" "moderate" evangelists. After all if this sort of thing is damaging to Christianity by making it look ridiculous, then presumably there will be a howl of protest from the less extreme types.

And perhaps when they are giving us their protests, they can explain why AIG is actually wrong - after all, they both read from the same holy book dont they?


And if they dont get out an protest can we assume that they tacitly support it?

Come on Wee Flea, whats your take on it?

628. How dare you call me a fundamentalist

Comment #40549 by scottishgeologist on May 14, 2007 at 1:02 pm

Tell you what David Robertson, heres a nice bit of "evidence" that might sway some people around here. Take the tragic case of that missing little girl. OK? Parents are religious. Probably thousands if not hundreds of thousands of Christians are praying about this right now.

Now, "God" knows everything. so HE knows where little Madeleine is. He knows if she is still alive, what address she is at and how she is being cared for. Meanwhile her parents are undergoing torture.

SO why does he not just answer one of these prayers? All it needs is a couple of words - a post code, an address, a phone number. On the basis of that, send the police in on a dawn raid. Girl recovered. Bad guys locked up. God glorified. Atheists reeling.

Doesnt work that way does it? BECAUSE HE DOESNT EXIST.

629. The torture of the grave Islam and the afterlife

Comment #37985 by scottishgeologist on May 6, 2007 at 3:12 pm

You know how you read these things , and you think "was that a spoof?" "am I going to make a complete tit of myself here by thinking that was genuine?" or "Come on, youre joking"

I checked out these Nakir and Munkar dudes. From Wikipedia:

"Nakir and Munkar prop the deceased soul upright in the grave and ask three questions: "Who is your Lord? Who is your Prophet? What is your religion?" A righteous believer will respond correctly, saying that their Lord is Allah, that Muhammad is their prophet and that their religion is Islam. If the deceased answers correctly, the time spent awaiting the resurrection is pleasant. Those who do not answer as described above are chastized until the day of judgment"

OK, we laugh, we mock, we know better. Question to muzzies: "can you lot PROVE any of this?" Question to Christians (before you get too smug) "why is your version of events any better?" Surely it is equally ludicrous?

630. Science and fiction

Comment #37387 by scottishgeologist on May 4, 2007 at 11:02 am

Other parties are nt much better. Take the SNP, now the biggest party in the Scottish Parliament. Bashir Ahmad, elected in Glasgow has as one of his priorities the setting up of a school for Muslim children. Great.

And there was the controversial financial donation to the SNP from Brian Souter of Stagecoach, born again Pentecostal and homophobe (any one remember the Section 28 fracas?)

Now that the SNP is top dog (although a no-overall-majority one) I wonder what their policy on creationism is. Most nationalists I know are fairly secular. Those that arent are nominalist "church goers" at worst. Cant think of any other real faith heads among Nats except maybe the two mentioned above.

Oh yes, our old friend David Robertson (AKA weefree) supports the nationalists......

631. Christians and Atheists to Debate Existence of God in First-Ever 'NIGHTLINE FACE OFF'

Comment #37124 by scottishgeologist on May 3, 2007 at 12:36 pm

Cameron and Comfort? That's those two who were in the banana video? right?

Man, so that piece of barely disguised gay soft porn is proof of Gods existence? Jee...

And what about:

"On the Day of Judgment," Comfort tells one man on the streets of New York, "God will see you as a lying, thieving, blasphemous, adulterer at heart. You have sinned against God. You need his forgiveness."

On occasions, things go badly wrong and the pair are attacked by members of the public. Comfort recalled one incident, saying, "While I was preaching the Gospel a gentleman came up and he started spitting on me. And he spat quite a few times."

He wasnt really spitting, he was choking on a banana.....

632. Why the Gods Are Not Winning

Comment #37110 by scottishgeologist on May 3, 2007 at 12:01 pm

Brian: "He'll burn in virtual hell for that." LOL ROFLMAO! Cyber-hell, now were talkin'.

Cyberhell is definitely a Packard Bell PC with Windows Me and AOL as the ISP. Oh yeah, and Norton AV.... No doubt about it!

Actually this sort of stormy debate with the likes of weefree is going nowhere and only gets repetitive. The whole debate after all hinges on whether or not there is such a thing as the supernatural. No supernatural, no God. Atheist thinking will only accept "supernatural" if there is empirical evidence for it. As soon as you start providing empirical evidence, it is no longer supernatural. (Is this not the sort of thing that Heisenberg managed to be uncertain about? :-)))))

As far as I can see, the only point at which debate can take place is where the natural and the supernatural have their overlap. Theists like to say that the supernatural (god, angels, jesus, praying) influence the natural world.

So put it to the test. Prove that prayer works. We know it doesnt. Speaking in tongues - record it, play it back, let different "interpreters" hear it - do they all come up with the same translations? I bet they dont. Prophesying. Do so called prophets (and not all Christians accept modern day prophecy) actually prophesy accurately? Put them to the test - I think we can guess the results.

I cant think of any other way of dealing with these people except by taking their supernatural - natural world interface notions and testing them. And rubbing their faces in the results.

Of course, they probably have the "god is not to be tested" get out clause.....

633. Richard Dawkins in the Time 100

Comment #37106 by scottishgeologist on May 3, 2007 at 11:44 am

Behe and other who go on about ID need to remember, that even if ID were possible, then it doesnt automatically imply the existence of God. It is entirely possible that an extremely advanced race of aliens could have visited the earth at several times in the past and influenced events. Possible, but on the basis of the evidence, unlikely. Highly unlikely.

This was after all, Erich von Danikens idea (until he got pwned by the BBC Horizons program in 1977 and shown up to be a fraud - I can clearly remember watching that prog on TV at the time)

Maybe "God" is a bug-eyed alien from Zeta Reticuli? Nah... advanced aliens couldnt possibly be so bloodthirsty and downright evil.

So when Behe et al talk about the Bible and belief and all that stuff, they have already loaded the dice.

634. Jordan opens children's museum

Comment #36967 by scottishgeologist on May 3, 2007 at 1:01 am

So lets get this right, a mid east country opens a proper museum for educational purposes. In the USA, a "creationist" museum is being built at outrageous expense, for the purpose of indoctrination.... whats the emoticon for "speechless"?

Yes, go Jordan. And yes, the Queen looks nice too!

635. Why the Gods Are Not Winning

Comment #36516 by scottishgeologist on May 1, 2007 at 11:54 am

Devolved said: "The only people that could ever go to hell are those that choose it"

Some would argue, Calvinists mainly, what Calvin himself referred to as the "horrible decree" of souble predestination. In other words those that are elect are saved, and those that are damned are damned anyway by Gods will. Salvation is of grace, ie the undeserved favour of God.

Actually, it was a countryman of mine, a long time ago, when Scotland was a Calvinist theocracy, who summed it up:

Holy Willies Prayer - Robert Burns:

O Thou, that in the heavens does dwell,
As it pleases best Thysel',
Sends aen to Heaven an' ten to Hell,
For Thy glory,
And no for onie guid or ill
They've done afore Thee!

Translated into English:

O You that in the Heavens does dwell,
Who, as it pleases best Yourself,
Sends one to Heaven and ten to Hell
All for Your glory,
And not for any good or ill
They have done before You!



I was brought up with this stuff, I studied it and It still screws my brain.

Even preachers like spurgeon couldnt resolve the Predestination / Freewill dichotomy. Spurgeon got round it by referring to them (quite eloquently) as twin tracks that although parallel , meet in eternity.

There has been a battle of theology for centuries between the Arminians who dont accept double predestination and the Calvinists who do.

Both refer to the Bible and can quote chapter and verse to back up their claims.

Of course the atheist claim is that both are wrong. Anihiliationism is the order of the day. Which, interestingly, a lot of churches are moving towards.

636. Pop Tech Lecture

Comment #36454 by scottishgeologist on May 1, 2007 at 7:28 am

Cdat: Love your comment: "my theory that ancient astronauts killed the dinosaurs"

There is something so beautifully von Daniken-esque about that - love it!

Oh yes, worth remembering it was 30 years ago that Von Daniken got owned by the BBC's Horizon....

637. Why the Gods Are Not Winning

Comment #36371 by scottishgeologist on May 1, 2007 at 2:25 am

Further to devolveds comments about David Murrow, I have checked this guy out - seems that if you use macho, militaristic swaggering man-talk, then more men go to church. Great, just great. Lets produce a bunch of gun toting faith heads, just like these islamists, lets fire them up with the language that guys use, that'll really make the world a better place.

Check out this:

http://www.churchformen.com/

if you really want to despair, look at that web site. Dont bother buying an emetic if you feel ill - just look at that stuff.

638. Why the Gods Are Not Winning

Comment #36352 by scottishgeologist on May 1, 2007 at 1:28 am

devolved, Ah yes, book of Judges. Fine piece of prose. Heres an excerpt:

22 Now as they were making their hearts merry, behold, the men of the city, certain sons of Belial, beset the house round about, and beat at the door, and spake to the master of the house, the old man, saying, Bring forth the man that came into thine house, that we may know him.

23 And the man, the master of the house, went out unto them, and said unto them, Nay, my brethren, nay, I pray you, do not so wickedly; seeing that this man is come into mine house, do not this folly.

24 Behold, here is my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you: but unto this man do not so vile a thing.

25 But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning: and when the day began to spring, they let her go.

26 Then came the woman in the dawning of the day, and fell down at the door of the mans house where her lord was, till it was light.

27 And her lord rose up in the morning, and opened the doors of the house, and went out to go his way: and, behold, the woman his concubine was fallen down at the door of the house, and her hands were upon the threshold.

28 And he said unto her, Up, and let us be going. But none answered. Then the man took her up upon an ass, and the man rose up, and gat him unto his place.

29 And when he was come into his house, he took a knife, and laid hold on his concubine, and divided her, together with her bones, into twelve pieces, and sent her into all the coasts of Israel.

30 And it was so, that all that saw it said, There was no such deed done nor seen from the day that the children of Israel came up out of the land of Egypt unto this day: consider of it, take advice, and speak your minds.


"Word of God?" Or the words of bronze age savages? Chechclear (go look it up) doesnt come close.

639. Intelligent design to feature in school RE lessons

Comment #36339 by scottishgeologist on May 1, 2007 at 12:47 am

What mayzee says rings a bell. When I was at school, we had one period of RE per week. First thing on a Tuesday morning. Complete and utter pish, so it was. Time that would have been much better spent dealing with Calculus, Chemistry or Physics.

Actually in some respects, it was a bit of light relief - it never taxed the brain. Not one pupil took it remotely seriously.

Of course, at school assembly, there was always the religious component. And music lessons always managed to bring in hymns and stuff like that now and again.

On the other hand, my maths and science teachers were briliant. Inspiring, funny and dedicated. Fond memories of them all. Thanks guys!

640. Why the Gods Are Not Winning

Comment #36333 by scottishgeologist on May 1, 2007 at 12:37 am

There is an interesting point at: "Rather than Amerofaith becoming deeply patriarchal as Longman thinks, it is increasingly feminine. Women church goers greatly outnumber men, who find church too dull"

I dont know about other parts of the UK, but if you look around a lot of the churches in Scotland, they are very heavily biased in the female direction. Possibly this is due to a large % of congregations being aged, so women will dominate anyway. Men just die younger. That simple.

But I have also seen this among younger "trendy" (!!!!) evangie types - women are more likely than men to have bible study groups and so on.

Also, you will also find a heavy bias towards women when you look at New Age groups and stuff like that, they tend to have a feminist edge.

It's almost a if men are not so predisposed towards superstition. That is not meant to be a sexist statement BTW! Just an observation.

I remember talking to one of my wife's friends a few years ago - she was bemoaning the fact that although she went to an evangelical church in the city, the place was hopeless when it came to men. Most of the men who were there were insipid, weak sort of types - or just weirdos. A lot of the young women there (and there were quite a few) were really pretty, intelligent and cute. What a waste.


And of course, they dont want to be "unequally yoked with an unbeliever" So they are severely limited in this respect. Marry a complete tosser (who they KNOW is a tosser) so that they can have a proper "christian " marriage. Or grow old and unloved, bitter spinsters. Never mind, they get their reward in heaven...... Its actually quite sad.

641. Believe in God Spray

Comment #36236 by scottishgeologist on April 30, 2007 at 3:20 pm

Actually, this advert isnt a million miles from certain products - try "Testamints":

http://www.testamints.net/product.html

Hilarious!

642. Convention ends with Satan and immigrants

Comment #36220 by scottishgeologist on April 30, 2007 at 2:22 pm

This "Satan" BS isnt just found amongst fundie republicans. There are a lot of Christian types in this country (the UK) who are just as bad. My wife has several evangie friends who will talk about "being under attack from Satan" and "under assault" when things get bad. I remember hearing about a church that had problems - elder was shagging pastors wife or something - and this was attributed to Satan.

Of course, the ladies of Landover have the right answers:

http://www.fes-net.com/_lob/LOL/sounds/whipSatan.wav

http://www.fes-net.com/_lob/LOL/sounds/skeerd.wav

More at: http://www.landoverbaptist.org/LOL/lol.html

:-)))))

643. Archive Hour: BBC and Religion

Comment #35815 by scottishgeologist on April 29, 2007 at 12:41 am

Lord Reith gets a mention there. Guy was a total bastard, despite (or becasue of?) his so called calvinism. His daughter wrote a book about him - the abuse she suffered was awful

There is an absolutely fascinating article about him here:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/core/Content/displayPrintable.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/09/02/nreith02.xml&site=5&page=0

Note: "son of the manse" Probably abused and infected with the disease himself.

And: "When he was 23, he formed a homosexual attachment to a 16-year-old boy, Charlie Bowser ("very good-looking, with awfully pretty eyes")"

And: "He was equally blinkered about his own menopausal extra-marital dalliances"

Only possible explanation: Religion can screw you up, big time.

644. Two idiots get a forum

Comment #35724 by scottishgeologist on April 28, 2007 at 2:56 pm

Right, this "Comfort " guy - is he in any way related to the late Alex Comfort who wrote "The Joy of Sex" ?

Judging by the antics with the banana, I'd say yes. But given that he is a fundie, words like "sex" and "joy" are probably mutually exclusive, unless of course it is happening with a meth-fuelled rent boy....

645. Sam's Flea!

Comment #35214 by scottishgeologist on April 26, 2007 at 3:22 pm

Epeeist, Definitely go along with your BBC comments. The "Heaven And Earth" show is vile. Almost as vile than Cliff Richard's "Mistletoe and Wine" - which is the absolute pinnacle of vileness and nothing can be worse than it. Its axiomatic, definitely.

Has Dawkins himself not mentioned these programs on television and radio - I am sure this came up quite a lot when the religites were moaning about the Channel 4 "Root of All Evil?"

Sadly, the absolute worst, most grim religious program EVER is no more (I think....) I am of course talking about STV's "Late Call". Only redeeming feature was the music - from Tchaikovsky's 5th Symphony. AS it was only shown in Scotland, the rest of the UK was spared this. It was so bad it was almost worth watching.

Wikipedia even has a short entry:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Call

The late great, much missed Rikki Fulton did a splendid send up of it, called "Last Call". Priceless so it was.

This one is typical, and very funny:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbAikjaiiHY

646. Sam's Flea!

Comment #35178 by scottishgeologist on April 26, 2007 at 1:38 pm

Rob said:

"One final general comment: It is very noticable that in the majority of atheistic comments on this site, if there is ire and indignation it is always directed squarely at the God that you all claim doesn't exist."

Actually, I think you'll find that a lot of the ire and indignation is fired in the direction of those who preach the delusion. Its the Haggards, Phelps, televangelists and child abusers and all the other apologists who will catch most flak.

And if the bible itself gets a torrent of abuse, then well, yes it must be aimed at the prophets et al who wrote it. If Moses thought he was writing "God's" word then he was deluded also. Actually, some of that stuff in Ezekial, Daniel and Revelation reads like it was written by someone on LSD - psilocybin toadstools maybe?

Can just imagine these guys, out in the desert, chilling out after a good bit of smiting, raping and genocide, munching away on the 'shrooms then laying down some heavy stuff, man, with the quill and parchment... They are all depicted in art as looking like 60's hippies anyway.

647. Shout your doubt out loud, my fellow unbelievers

Comment #35171 by scottishgeologist on April 26, 2007 at 1:25 pm

Weefree

I am just going to stick with this one point. In your response to my comments about the multitude of sects, denominations etc you said:

"Emm….slight flaw in the argument. It would depend on human beings being perfect"

Perfection is irrelevant - all that is needed is for sound and sensible working of the available evidence and then coming up with a workable theory. The evidence I am referring to is Scripture, the theory is a coherent theology derived from it. Shouldnt be a big deal.

Right lets look at the classic Calvinism/Arminianism debate. Both these theologies have been derived from the same Scripture by very learned men - Calvin and Wesley stand out in this respect. In terms of the quality of their assesment and interpretation of Scripture, it would probably be hard to find finer examples.

Yet the two theologies are very different. Salvation based totally on Grace (Calvinism) is very different from a salvation based on a measure of human "works" input (Arminianism). Most churches are one or the other in approach.

So why these two very different "theories?" Could it be that the material that they are derived from is perhaps NOT as uniequivocal as some theists would like to make out. The Bible is full of contradictions and downright confusing passages.

Just one not insignificant example: Mark 16:9 -20. The AV treats these as canonical. However the NIV states: "The most reliable early manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20" So are these verse part of the Bible or not? Since people have been killed handling snakes because of this, then it would be good to know. If Bible publishers cant make up their minds about this sort of thing, what hope is there for Joe Public?


The Johannine Comma (1 John 5:7) is another example of this sort of confusion. In fact, on the Free Church web site message board several years ago, one of your ministers, David Meredith referred to it as a "Roman Gloss" This was in response to I think it was the contributor "Nicholas" - I am sure you are familiar with these names.


That , sir, is why there are so many sects and denominations. Imperfect people have very little to do with it. Imperfect source material ie the Bible is much more likely.

648. The God disunion: there is a place for faith in science, insists Winston

Comment #35113 by scottishgeologist on April 26, 2007 at 8:45 am

Lord Winston is a Jew, right? So presumably this means (as far as the Christians are concerned) that he is going to burn in hell for eternity.

You didnt manage to get a chance to warn him about this horrible fate which awaits him , did you weefree?

Just wondering what Winstons take on this sort of Christian doctrine might be.

Another separate point that is worth thinking about is that he has been heavily involved in fertiity and reproduction science. If he IS a faith head, then it begs the question "why"? After all, isnt "prayer" supposed to do the trick. Besides if a couple is infertile then God must have made them that way. So is successful fertility treatment a bit like telling God "sorry pal, you got it wrong, science wins this time"

Or maybe infertility is Gods way of "testing" couples and all that BS....

Sorry, loads of questions, all at tangents.

There is actually a much simpler answer: In the natural world, there will always be degrees of fertility (just like degrees of health, strength, ability etc) - and some of these are going to be easier to fix than others. No need for gods, no need for talking to the sky, no need for superstition. Just a bit of knowledge, acquired through scientific research. Its actually that simple.

I still dont know how he manages to square superstition with reason.

649. Darwin nearly failed to evolve in print

Comment #35108 by scottishgeologist on April 26, 2007 at 8:18 am

The Murray publishing business makes interesting reading - another Enlightenment enterprise by the looks of it.

Short wikipedia article here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Murray_(publisher)

Interesting that Charles Lyell also features - Lyell of course being a major influence on the young Charles Darwin.

That must have been a fascinating time to have been around - all these scientific discoveries in a rapidly evolving industrial age, the ghastly horrors of the medieval period slipping away.

Horrors of superstition still with us however...

650. Darwin nearly failed to evolve in print

Comment #35016 by scottishgeologist on April 26, 2007 at 1:11 am

Good to see this collection of work in Edinburgh. Edinburgh was very much the centre of the Enlightenment, the "Athens of the North"

Lets hope the fundraising goes well