651. The Out Campaign

Comment #61962 by BillySands on August 7, 2007 at 3:26 pm

I believe I saw an interview with Kaka once where he said god helps him score goals. Strange that he would take away the keepers free will to save the shot. i've always found it strange that god helps sportsmen (and women) beat other (often christian) sportsmen and women, but he never makes an amputee grow a new leg so they can play sports

652. The Out Campaign

Comment #61955 by BillySands on August 7, 2007 at 2:54 pm

There are usually two prongs that christians use to deal with suffering. One is god is never wrong and that we always deal with it in the wrong way. One of this things that disgusted me about this was the fact that I used to know it was true. I told needy people this shit myself and I think that just made matters worse for them. Often the fact they get no answer from god concerning what it is he wants them to change about themselves makes matters even worse. On top of the fact you are in a bad place, I've seen people start to think that they must be so sinful that even god ignores them. Of course it is the christian response that this is satan speaking - so like the bibles tells them, they order him away in the name of jesus and nothing happens. Yhey now think that god really hates them. Hardly a positive life enhancing experience - then jesus never said it was going to be easy - except he did:

It is the liberals, not the fundamentalists, who are the true renegades from biblical Christianity.

I've heard similar things about jesus being an infidel unto god and it is the murderers, rapists, slave traders, racists, war mongers, homophobes and misogynists that are the true followers of yahweh - always a conversation stopper when you meet christians at a barbeque

we've had too many Christians here and precious few other faiths to argue with...

Yes we wouldnt want to earn a reputation for discriminating against people for following the wrong imaginary god.

Goldy, lets not forget to donate to the buy benny hinn a private jet campaign - now that is a real evil mother f*cker who rips off vulnerable people and gives them false hope.
Can we call in Dr Benway to use the "C" word on him?

Kandel congratulations on reaching no 666 - another great song! I found it took time to come out to those closest to me. No point doing it before you are ready though. Good luck
always wondered what ode to joy would sound like if motorhead did it

653. The Out Campaign

Comment #61876 by BillySands on August 7, 2007 at 8:32 am

I think the most positive thing is actually breaking free from the faith trap and realising you have a lot more control than you previously thought. It is annoying that people are told to deal with crippling problems this way when something more realistic is in order

Billy! Have some tea and marvel

I prefer semi skimmed milk :-)

654. The Out Campaign

Comment #61849 by BillySands on August 7, 2007 at 6:03 am

That was a good idea J I would like to offer another answer based on what I have heard, been told or told others in the past. It too is deeply dissatisfying and keeps the victim in a state of emotional torture

Sometimes in our pain we find it all too easy to lash out at God. We must not project human values on to him or judge him by the actions of others who claim to follow him. The only one who can truly reflect the nature of god is jesus himself, and it is to him that we should look in our times of trouble. Jesus himself was no stranger to abuse. He died in one of the most horrible ways imaginable and he therefore understands our suffering more than we know. Remember, God works to the good in all things and uses it to make us more like jesus. Painful as it is, your friend now better understands his suffering – that he faithfully and willingly endured for us- and as a result knows how much he loves her. Perhaps god is using this experience in order that your friend may be better equipped to minister to others unfortunate enough to be in a similar situation.
God wants us to trust him, especially in our darkest moments. That is when his power is made perfect in us. That is when he disciplines us and brings us to a closer understanding of him. It is then that we throw off the worldly and let his spirit in to do its transforming work in us.
Your friend may suffer now, but god has all eternity to play with and knows what is best. He never puts us in a situation that we can not handle and uses it to refine our faith which is precious to him.
I will pray that the lord touches your friends heart – there is nothing more loving we can do for anyone than ask the lord to take a personal interest in their lives.

That actually made me very uncomfortable writing that. It is clearly no way to deal with your problems. It gives no answer and leaves the victim expecting god to do something, or puts pressure on them to "change". The best advice is to leave the abusive husband. I Feel quite angry and disgusted now.


PS Happy birthday Philip

655. The Out Campaign

Comment #61425 by BillySands on August 5, 2007 at 5:45 am

Hi V,
Even amongst the god botherers, the writings of Paul are often considered the earliest. We read from the bible that Paul never witnessed the life of jesus. There is an article here on pauls internal contradictions,(although a couple are inaccurate - but dont tell wee flea I said that - i am a fundie after all) http://www.inu.net/skeptic/usedcar.html
another article here http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/paulorigin.html
. Luke was not a witnes either and in all probability got his info from Paul, as may have Mark, who was not a witness either. Most gospels (except John -and there is no reasan to assume that he is the apostle) are largley based on mark. There is nothing to suggest that matthew was an eye witness either.
Concerning the cannon, Philip is better placed at answering that. We are all but parts of the body of Quetz. To some he gives the gift of making homosexual fies, some he endows with the ability to drink strange teas. Yet others he gives the gift to interpret things.
But incase philip is still down the old rub a dub, here is a useful article - note, christians cant agree on what is actually inspired http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/bibleanalysis.html this link also contains stuff on authorship. And David, since you like arguements from authority, I have read this stuff in proper theology books too.

Quetz, if you ever work out women, let me know

656. The Out Campaign

Comment #61315 by BillySands on August 4, 2007 at 3:09 pm

Steven
Some translations of the bible have foot notes about the uncertainty of the translation of Isaiah 7:14.
Isaiah even uses the word bethula 4 times elsewhere (23:12, 37:22, 47:1, 62:5). Strange that he would use two different words to mean the same thing (mind you there is evidence to suggest that up to 3 authors wrote "Isaiah"
However, the context kills off any link to jesus.

Bet David argues translation instead of context

657. The Flea Circus Invites a Newcomer!

Comment #61299 by BillySands on August 4, 2007 at 1:48 pm

david, still here. Evidence please that I have not read the book? Provide some or shut up.
So Hague is a historian of the same standard as Dawkins is a biologist. You make me laugh. Tell me are your other books written by christian propagandaists?
I do not need to believe that Wilberforce was anything. Provide the letter I asked for and I will concede. Please provide evidence of this need in me. Are you a psychologist or just being abusive?
As steve points out, you focus on this rather than what the bible really says on slavery. I'm quite happy to wind you up. As the sites most active theist, you really are providing a bad immage of christians. Keep it up

One final thing, experts can be found on google too and it saves time getting a book your library doesnt have. The beauty of google is that every one can see the raw data for themselves and make up their own mind - regardless of the authors personal opinions - bet you never thought of doing that.
BTW dont flatter yourself, you are a lousy historian - Quirinius!
your last sentence sounds like a man who is losing, but if you want to change the topic, address the fact the bible promotes slavery

658. The Flea Circus Invites a Newcomer!

Comment #61290 by BillySands on August 4, 2007 at 1:24 pm

Wee flea, I see you lied again about not coming back

I'm sorry Stephen

I believe his name is Steven please pay attention

I was just pointing out how stupid it is to make claims about people (Wilberforce was a Deist) without ever having read about them and then dismissing the major historical biography as 'an inaccurate little book' - clearly not having read it.

No Davis you were being a nasty little child abusing fundie - that's what All you religious lot do right? Evidence that I haven't read it please?
You dismissed the reference I provided and you didnt even read that! now that seems like hypocracy to me. Again you are ony interested in what appears to support your case. Now show me a letter written in wilberforce's hand that he was always a christian and I will concede. You have been provided with evidence to the contrary and you wont - you just hurl more and louder insults. These are not facys and I dont get intimidated by baldy wee baw bags

I think Billy was trying to make the point that Wilberforce's anti-slavery was nothing to do with his Christianity.

What? you only think?

I realise that Billy thinks quoting a reputable historical authority is unfair because it is appealing to authority

Now David, where did I say that? What I object to was your justification that the book was good history. I know nobel laureates who have been wrong about things, so why should I accept it must be true because it won a prize. You seem OK with that I would like to evaluate the facts - remember our quirinius debate where you quoted Ramsey as authority? I presented this so called evidece and you looked really stupid and hurled insults?

In fact the following is from a letter he wrote aged 13 in 1772 "one of the greatest misfortunes I had at Hull was not being able to hear the Blessed Word of God, as my mama would not let me go to High Church on a Sunday afternoon" .

Now, I smell a rat here about the date. He was already in Hull then (His mother brought him back in 1771) Provide proper details of this reference

From his childhood he adopted an evangelical Christian position. It was just as well for the anti-slavery movement he did - or we might have had the 'zeitgeist' of Huxley and others for many more years of slavery.

Ahem: Emancipation proclamation


Nice pro slavery bible verse :However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

PS. I know and accept that there were professing Christians who supported slavery. That is not the point. The point is that, as Wilberforce himself stated, it was his belief in God and the teachings of the Bible, which drove him to committ to abolishing slavery. He may have been deluded but at least have the grace to acknowledge what the man said himself. And please stop nit-picking.

PPS I do think that the inability you have to correct one another and the way that you leap to defend your own 'tribe' is yet another indication of how religious fundamentalist like your behaviour is. Sometimes its ok to be wrong. You need not need to treat every detail as though it were a do or die point which you will never concede. It would be much more impressive and reasonable if at times, instead of rushing to Google or your nearest atheist website, you said to one of your own - listen on this point you are wrong. One suspects it will be a cold day in hell .....

Ah the christian love! David, You are implying religion is bad here I agree - especially christianity that is full of hypocrites.
Well, defending an opinion is now religious - well I never. I suppose the supporters of Darwin were religious fundamentalists too?
Do you think you are a good embodiment of the spirit of jesus. If this is proper christianity, we dont want it thanks. David, can I come on your church site and call every one homophobic bigots? Please?

I wonder in what sick way you think we are helping you? You just show yourself up - Keep up the good work

659. The Flea Circus Invites a Newcomer!

Comment #61287 by BillySands on August 4, 2007 at 1:18 pm

Wee flea, I see you lied again about not coming back

I'm sorry Stephen

I believe his name is Steven please pay attention

I was just pointing out how stupid it is to make claims about people (Wilberforce was a Deist) without ever having read about them and then dismissing the major historical biography as 'an inaccurate little book' - clearly not having read it.

No Davis you were being a nasty little child abusing fundie - that's what All you religious lot do right? Evidence that I haven't read it please?
You dismissed the reference I provided and you didnt even read that! now that seems like hypocracy to me. Again you are ony interested in what appears to support your case. Now show me a letter written in wilberforce's hand that he was always a christian and I will concede. You have been provided with evidence to the contrary and you wont - you just hurl more and louder insults. These are not facys and I dont get intimidated by baldy wee baw bags

I think Billy was trying to make the point that Wilberforce's anti-slavery was nothing to do with his Christianity.

What? you only think?

I realise that Billy thinks quoting a reputable historical authority is unfair because it is appealing to authority

Now David, where did I say that? What I object to was your justification that the book was good history. I know nobel laureates who have been wrong about things, so why should I accept it must be true because it won a prize. You seem OK with that I would like to evaluate the facts - remember our quirinius debate where you quoted Ramsey as authority? I presented this so called evidece and you looked really stupid and hurled insults?

In fact the following is from a letter he wrote aged 13 in 1772 "one of the greatest misfortunes I had at Hull was not being able to hear the Blessed Word of God, as my mama would not let me go to High Church on a Sunday afternoon" .

Now, I smell a rat here about the date. He was already in Hull then (His mother brought him back in 1771) Provide proper details of this reference

From his childhood he adopted an evangelical Christian position. It was just as well for the anti-slavery movement he did - or we might have had the 'zeitgeist' of Huxley and others for many more years of slavery.

Ahem: Emancipation proclamation


Nice pro slavery bible verse :However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

PS. I know and accept that there were professing Christians who supported slavery. That is not the point. The point is that, as Wilberforce himself stated, it was his belief in God and the teachings of the Bible, which drove him to committ to abolishing slavery. He may have been deluded but at least have the grace to acknowledge what the man said himself. And please stop nit-picking.

PPS I do think that the inability you have to correct one another and the way that you leap to defend your own 'tribe' is yet another indication of how religious fundamentalist like your behaviour is. Sometimes its ok to be wrong. You need not need to treat every detail as though it were a do or die point which you will never concede. It would be much more impressive and reasonable if at times, instead of rushing to Google or your nearest atheist website, you said to one of your own - listen on this point you are wrong. One suspects it will be a cold day in hell .....

Ah the christian love! David, You are implying religion is bad here I agree - especially christianity that is full of hypocrites.
Well, defending an opinion is now religious - well I never. I suppose the supporters of Darwin were religious fundamentalists too?
Do you think you are a good embodiment of the spirit of jesus. If this is proper christianity, we dont want it thanks. David, can I come on your church site and call every one homophobic bigots? Please?

I wonder in what sick way you think we are helping you? You just show yourself up - Keep up the good work

660. The Flea Circus Invites a Newcomer!

Comment #61263 by BillySands on August 4, 2007 at 11:48 am

what's this? a christian saying that wilberforce was once a deist? http://www.gracevalley.org/sermon_trans/Special_Speakers/William_Wilberforce_History.html

But he disagrees with wee flea and in his mind he is always right!

661. The Out Campaign

Comment #61260 by BillySands on August 4, 2007 at 11:21 am

I am a minister and I am a Christian and I do know more about the Bible than you. Which is precisely why I cannot go the formula route you do

That does not mean anything. Christian use the bible and fight amongst themselves over it. Telling people to accept your authority may work in church, but we need justification of what you say.

Quetz as my god you do indeed speak for me concerning evidence. If only David could learn from Mark.

662. The Flea Circus Invites a Newcomer!

Comment #61254 by BillySands on August 4, 2007 at 11:04 am

stevencarr
You may be interested in this. http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/manufall.html
The early NT is far from consistent. I can hear wee flea saying "but that's a sceptical site....." as he often does when he has no answer.

Pulex minimus penis-capitalis!

663. The Out Campaign

Comment #61235 by BillySands on August 4, 2007 at 9:46 am

Yorker, All it needs is it's head turned upside down and red eyes

I see he didn't have anything to say on homophobia in the NT. It's amazing he seems to think that I look down on christians. David let your hate go. It's not good for you. Remember Matt 7:1 "judge not lest ye be judged too" or luke 6:41 "Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?"

What parts of the bible do you actually follow?

I also see you never answered my question concerning the WCF and sectarian hatred. I can only assume that you are happy to continue to fuel this hatred. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you have remained silent on the matter.

664. The Flea Circus Invites a Newcomer!

Comment #61229 by BillySands on August 4, 2007 at 9:11 am

Yawn David, I fell alseep during that.

Fascinating. So speaking about the philanthropist Tom Hunter you wrote that you had never heard him and religion mentioned together', not because you wanted to make a claim that here was a good secular philanthropist, but because you wanted to trap me into revealing that he was a Catholic?! And then when I do so you accuse me of being a liar?! I think it will take a wee while to work out the convoluted thinking of that one. Of course we could just read it as you wrote it.

Yes! David makes an arse of himself again! No silly boy I traped you into misrepresenting what I was saying. I did not make a claim about his religion. You added 2+2 and came up with 5 You really still need a lot of work David. How does your confused brain think I was trapping you into pointing out he was a catholic?

Must be missing something. Oh yes. I think its called...

A brain?

Ah the death throws of a dishonest debater. Its sad to see that in the face of evidence you delude yourelf - but everyone here knew that already!

Billy, you really are very helpful to me. You remind me a lot of some Christians who knowing nothing about science are given a tract which states that evolution is just a theory.

No need to compare me to you That's just inaccurate and just plain rude!

Relying on wikipedia you really think that William Wilberforce was a Deist who are writing letters to newspapers before he was 14! You have no evidence for this

Oh dear, David. How dishonest of you to make claims about my sources. I already gave you my source and it wasn't wikipedia - you fell into my little trap again Shame on you. I just had to wave the key word wikipedia and suddenly 2+2=5 again.
BTW Dont just dismiss wiki off hand. Provide evidence.

you have never read a life of Wilberforce or any of his material but like our 'evolution is a theory' person you cannot let go

Ah you seem to know what I have or have not read. Could you provide us with the rational basis of this accusation. You sound full of hate here - chill davey baby! And I wont let it go because I have evidence that you cant refute

So you resort to an ad hominem attack on Hague.

Strike 3! this is so easy it is boring. As a non drinker, I actually hold his drinking abilities in high regard

and how delicious that you spell inaccurate wrong!)

Boy you must really be a nasty spiteful hate motivated angemonger if you have to point out spelling mistakes in an abusive way. After that declaring that, I love your spelling of declaring

They jump on this with glee and start decalring this wonderful truth

So, you must think you are pretty thick too. However, I never pick up your many spelling mistakes, because I'm not that childish and focus on the arguements, not the spelling - or the source.

It is over 500 pages of good historical writing and research which I would suggest that you read before you pontificate.

How do you know I havent?

Hague won the History book of the year with his biography on Pitt and is a recognized and serious historical writer.

Ah, the good old arguement from authority chestnut. Who votes in these things by the way?

And no I would not warn them they are going to hell.

That's a bit dishonest. Jesus makes it clear. Fortunately there are plenty in your church who will jump at the chance - like my colleague's mum.

PS glad to help, and glad to hear these books are causing your flock to doubt

665. The Out Campaign

Comment #61222 by BillySands on August 4, 2007 at 8:26 am

Even the early christians knew of this similarity with pagan beliefs. As Justin Martyr wrote: "When we say that the Word, who is the first born of God, was produced without sexual union, and that he, Jesus Christ, our teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven; we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter (Zeus)." (First Apology, ch. Xxiv)

Yorker, how could the good lord suffer such an an abomination to walk amongst his specially created ones. I think I may be sick

666. The Out Campaign

Comment #61188 by BillySands on August 4, 2007 at 4:40 am

Forgot to say, god doesn't think that deformed people are equal to non deformed ones (Lev. 21:16-23). Shame he makes them that way (Ps. 139:13-15).
The more we look at it, the the more of davids good ethics are exposed as non biblical.

Also forgot, Pauls writings have been dated from about 45 CE TO 200CE and is even thought to have been several contradictory authors. Genesis? C.1500 BCE to 500 BCE. And the author wasn't Moses - WHO PROBABLY DIDNT EXIST. The were probably several authors who added to it over time. Gen 1 and 2 contradict each other on the order of creation for example

667. The Out Campaign

Comment #61185 by BillySands on August 4, 2007 at 4:18 am

Yet another nice post J.

The ised of shared principles is something I have been trying to get David to see by constantly asking him why homosexuality is a crime - in the same way that rape etc is. I think you put it very well.
Of course forgiving ones enemies is an old sumerian tradition. The earliest records of which pre-date the bible
http://nosha.secularhumanism.net/essays/sierichs6.html
and the bible doesn't consider all humans equal - that is why god ordered the ethnic cleansing of canan - and the whole chosen people business.

I think the idea of the virgin birth was an attempt to allow the "saviour" to be born without sin. This idea fails because ! it only removes sin by one generation . Psalm 51:5 says all people are concieved sinful (so mary is already sinful - well she is a woman in the bible afterall).
Then we have Job saying that nothing good can come from a woman.

The whole idea was probably an attempt to to sell this cult to pagans who believed in virgin birth already (and propitiation, resurrection and miracles etc)

People make a big deal out of the translation of "virgin" in Isaiah. A much more devastating blow is the context of this ao called prophecy. It is not about jesus at all. Matthew lied! http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=isaiah%207&version=31

Talking of sex etc apparently Amun Ra created the cosmos with a wank. His preists used to toss off furiously like little monkeys in his temple.
geckoman Most of the comments here are directed at the inanity of wee flea, and not kissing RDs arse

668. The Flea Circus Invites a Newcomer!

Comment #60983 by BillySands on August 3, 2007 at 8:37 am

Why did the Free Church remove our exchange from their website?

I remember a few vieled commets put David's way when they were consdidering shutting it down. I recall may of them saying it was a bad move at the time. I even agreed with them.
It would be interesting to know what effect the athiest invasion had on peoples faith. Wonder if it got too dangerous for them.

SG David was busy removing posts he didn't like even then. I remember him repeatedly removing one of his troll comments that I kept putting up for folk to see. He also removed some comments on his thread argueing with Atheists where Martin Gill corrected his misrepresentations

Daksian Yes, David is deliberately being a dick. I dont however think he can engage in serious debate with him. You are lucky to get past the first exchange and counter before the insults start flying from him. Good luck though. He may even do his best to try and prove me wrong here, but just you wait and see

669. The Out Campaign

Comment #60911 by BillySands on August 3, 2007 at 5:44 am

Gawd bless yer philip, a jolly good knees up round the old joanna at the old rub a dub, then of for a ruby - must beware of the thrupenny bits or you'll be on the throne all bubble and squeak.

670. The Flea Circus Invites a Newcomer!

Comment #60890 by BillySands on August 3, 2007 at 4:44 am

(Switches of bold...)

Way ahead of you, it must have been the Lord Quetz that put us in touch. I'm off to make him a sacrifice of some tea :-)

671. The Out Campaign

Comment #60888 by BillySands on August 3, 2007 at 4:37 am

LOL Baeoz,

Of course eve never knew it was wrong to disobey god until she actually ate that fruit. God is a pure cheezy walloper!

We have some nice gabbro too. I like essexite (a calcium rich granodiorite) too. I believe glasgow is only one of two places in the world where it is found.
What's everyone's favorite rock? My least favorite are the ones David keeps his in his head

672. The Out Campaign

Comment #60887 by BillySands on August 3, 2007 at 4:31 am

Yes SG,
Some part of me hopes he may one day see the errors of his ways. I agree It is too easy and not challenging any more.
I too shall retreat to spend some time wi a wee senga and a bottle o buckie up the back o' the bus and sing "your da's pure hingin' oot o the back o yer gran like that. Dont geez nane o yer, dont gees nane o yer dont geez mane o yer shyyyyte"

673. The Out Campaign

Comment #60883 by BillySands on August 3, 2007 at 4:24 am

I take my position from the NT. I do not discard the stuff I do not like the taste of – there are parts of the Bible that I do not like the tast of but I accept that my personal taste should not be the determining factor.

Why ignore the OT? What reason can you give us not to go on our personal taste in this issue

1 cor 6:9-11 9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Even the NT is homophobic.

Concerning "looking down" on sin 1 cor 5:1-5 1It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife. 2And you are proud! Shouldn't you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this? 3Even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present. 4When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature[a] may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.

In other words shun them!

Bad theology my arse david. At least you realise this stuff is wrong - as do we. Looks like none of us takes the bible too seriously on morality then - Thank Quetz!

674. The Out Campaign

Comment #60880 by BillySands on August 3, 2007 at 4:04 am

SG,

lets not forget that he is now saying that he never made that oath

675. The Flea Circus Invites a Newcomer!

Comment #60878 by BillySands on August 3, 2007 at 4:02 am

- That's the trouble with relying on Wikipedia for your info. You did boast that it had nothing to do with religion. You were wrong.

What I actually said:"Never heard him and religion mentioned together."

Had I said he was not religious, then I would be wrong. You must stop twisting my words. I had a bet that I could lure you into making a comment like that. Looks like I'm a mars bar up on the deal. Why do you think that comment originated from wikipedia (it's double or quits on the mars bar time)

Shame on you David, you are making lies again

- This would be the Abe Lincoln who had slaves. How many of the above list were active in the anti-slavery movement? And would these be the same atheists of the French Revolution who refused to abolish the French slave trade?

Aroogah Aroogah (flashing lights etc) Straw man alert! What does that have do do with the fact he freed the slaves? While we are oin the subject, how many popes and biblical figures kept slaves? Paul even sent one back to his master.
As for the other questions, the answers are All of the above were active and No. Do the decent thing and concede that non christians did a hell of a lot more than christians.

- Again you need to get your facts right. Wilberforce was never a Deist (which you claimed) – he was converted to evangelical Methodism when he was in his early teens by his Aunt and Uncle. His mother was so alarmed at this that she took him home. Please read the life of Wilberforce before you come on and make comments like this. You seem to grab at anything you read in atheist books. You really need to broarden your reading.

Oh yes he was, and I provided a reference to it. He was certainly writing to newspapers on the subect before he was 14. Incidentally, wikipedia puts his convertion some time around the age of 26. Was this the same "14 pints a night Hague" who wrote your inacurate little book? Or are you deliberately misrepresenting again?

-

- So there were no Arab slave traders before then?!

i thought it was obvious I was talking christiam period. Obviously not. But then you also know that I know that the bible allows black slavery too, so I presume you are up to your naughty tricks again.

"Tell you what, I'm a fair man and will give you a chance to redeem yourself: point out a bible verse that says that slavery is wrong - no ifs or butts - I wont hold my breath though, cos we both know there aren't any" - Try 1 Timothy 1:10 where slave traders are condemned.

Not what I asked old bean. I asked for a verse that said thatslavery was wrong. But let's look a little bit more at that werse: 9Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

10For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;



Goodness me, is that homophobia in there? also the word "slave trader" can also mean kidnapper

676. The Out Campaign

Comment #60852 by BillySands on August 3, 2007 at 2:26 am

"Do you think it is right that I was forced to pray to your god every morning in primary school?"

No it was not right. And it was also not necessary. In Scotland every child has the right not to participate in school prayers. You want to take away the right for those who want to.

Now David, when I was at primary school, opting out of prayer was not an option. I remember being laid into by the teacher once for keeping my eyes open. So dont talk rubbish.
Now, where do you see me calling to specifically saying people do not have a right to pray Show some integrity fore once. If people <>b>want to pray they can do it in silence away from everyone else. How would you feel if an iman came to your childs school and said "lets all pray to Allah"

- Please don't place all your poor theology on everyone else. If you were a Christian you should never have looked down on anyone else. I strongly suspect your Christianity.

Bad theology eh? The only heretical thing I did was not stone them as your god commands. You are the bad theologian here matey and this is shown by your total unwillingness to debate why homosexuality is so evil - coward. And by look down, I mean class as exceptionally sinful in the eyes of god. He does afterall seem to say that all sinners are welcome, but gays will never inherit the kingdom of god. Open your eyes you silly little man.
Now, what was that verse about judging others again? I'm only glad my secular vales came through and freed me from this poison.
David, you seem to thing it is ok to verbally abuse people, I sincerely doubt your christianity.

677. The Flea Circus Invites a Newcomer!

Comment #60680 by BillySands on August 2, 2007 at 4:47 pm

Oh and david, you never actually said what i will gain from your book that I wont get from those other authors that i HAVE READ! Why dont you send a copy to the first person here to request one on the understanding they pass it on to the next once they have finished it. I still want to know what evidence you have to present and what arguements I have not heard elsewhere.

678. The Flea Circus Invites a Newcomer!

Comment #60663 by BillySands on August 2, 2007 at 4:05 pm

Would this be the same Tom Hunter who is Catholic?

I dont know, but basic English 101, I never said he wasn't

The point is Billy that its hilarious. So many errors in such a short paragraph. Please tell me the major abolitionists who were atheists? Huxley perhaps? Wilberforce was a deist! Brilliant – please give us the evidence – you do of course know that he became an evangelical Methodist when he was a young teenager. Can I suggest that you actually read something about Wilberforce (other than on atheist websites) before you consider posting again. Try Hague's Wilberforce – I have just finished it. Brilliant. And gives completely the lie to your above post. But it's still fun…

Happy to oblige old chap, although again, if your had read properly wrote atheists, agnostics and deists. Lets try Abe lincoln, Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin, John Quincy Adams, Raplh Waldo Emerson (who gave up christianity first), William Lyold Garrison,Jeremy Bentham John Stuart Mill and the Atheists of the french revolution for starters. (Knight, Honest to Man: p142
McCabe, The Social Record of Christianity: p111-112
Phelips, The Churches and Modern Thought: p27)

Now if you read my post correctly I refer to Wilberforce's objection to slavery before he became a christian (McCabe, The Social Record of Christianity: p110-111). In fact many christians obstructed him (Knight, Honest to Man: p142).
This is what none other than St Augustine has to say on the matter The first cause of slavery, then, is sin - that a man should be put in bonds by another; and this happens only by the judgement of God, in whose eyes it is no crime. (the city of god)
Black slavery can be traced to the request of a Christian bishop, the Catholic Bishop of Chiapa in Mexico, Bartoleme de las Casas. In 1517 Padre (mainly because the native Americans did not make good slaves

In 1836 the South Carolina Methodist Conference declared that:

The Holy Scriptures, so far from giving any countenance to [the] delusion [of abolitionism] do unequivocally authorize the relation of master and slave. (Knight, Honest to Man: p143)
Now do you really want me to put up those embarassing bible verses on slavery now?

Looks like history (as well as science, theology etc) is not your strong point - hilarious really!

Ouch, that's got to hurt - proper references too!

Tell you what, I'm a fair man and will give you a chance to redeem yourself: point out a bible verse that says that slavery is wrong - no ifs or butts - I wont hold my breath though, cos we both know there aren't any

679. The Out Campaign

Comment #60637 by BillySands on August 2, 2007 at 2:49 pm

Roach,
New people come to the site all the time. Many have problems with faith. I think it is good for them. I certainly appreciated such stuff a couple of years ago myself

680. The Out Campaign

Comment #60633 by BillySands on August 2, 2007 at 2:32 pm

I don't want to force my religion of philosophy on anyone. And I do not want secularism to be forced on my children.

Who's forcing anything? That's the whole point about NOT forcing or favouring a particular view. Do you think it is right that I was forced to pray to your god every morning in primary school?
So, you dont want secularism force on your children and you dont want to force your views on people. Isn't taking religion out of schools the only suitable solution then?
What is wrong with secularism? It appears that the cherry picked parts of the bible are secular in origin anyway. Most atheists I know are much more moral than most christians I know - go figure! When I was a christian I looked down on homosexuals - my only justification was the bible - thank goodness I came to my senses and realise how wrong this position was.
Why does it take you so long to answer? Incidentally I dont recall you saying you never took those vows - that will be why we pursue the issue can you reference a post where you do? I find it hard to believe everyone here seems to have missed it. Not telling porkies are you?

You are stil not adressing the central issue of homosexuality. How can you posibly defend a book that says kill homosexuals. Please explain why that is not homophobic. Please for the upteenth time tell us why homosexuality is so wrong that your god DEMANDS homosexuals must be killed. Cant't you even realise why this is disgusting to us. You are offered an opportunity to explain this and you cant. What does that tell us?

681. The Flea Circus Invites a Newcomer!

Comment #60601 by BillySands on August 2, 2007 at 11:40 am

I've an idea, let's compare our atheist moral values with that of David who needs to be told right from wrong.
I'll start the ball rolling.
Is homosexuality a crime? I say no - over to you David

What about rape? I say it's wrong. The bible is both for and against it - David?


Cold blooded infanticide - I say this is wrong. David's god ocassionally demands this - Comments David?

Genocide - I say wrong. David?

relogious intolerance - bad David, what about those cananites?

That should be enough for now

These include alcohol, drugs, career, fame, wealth, immoral sex and related dubious entertainments and a list of other substitutes.

I know a couple of christians so immoral that those would be their better qualities

682. The Out Campaign

Comment #60572 by BillySands on August 2, 2007 at 9:28 am

How rewarding to see young J being touched by Quetz. It makes it all so worth while. Celebratory cup of tea anyone?

683. The Flea Circus Invites a Newcomer!

Comment #60571 by BillySands on August 2, 2007 at 9:25 am

and end up trading slander and ad hominem attacks, rather than debate specific issues.

Wee flea doesn't debate the issues that make his position look stupid. Even those posters that he claims to like dont get their penetrating challenges answered. He could learn a lot from Mark Taunton, but I dont want him contaminating that thread.

I think he likes the attention.

684. The Out Campaign

Comment #60569 by BillySands on August 2, 2007 at 9:19 am

After that, have a cup of ~985:-) tea, but NO OTHER type.

Amazing, I had not read that, but had just had a cup of tea in a meeting - PRAIIIISEEE QUETZ.

Philip #23@==_1 his will shall be +@~£$&* Tell me, is Klunk from catch that pigeon a follower too?

Yorker. I thought I could see a picture of Jesus in it.

685. The Flea Circus Invites a Newcomer!

Comment #60567 by BillySands on August 2, 2007 at 9:11 am

Nice summary the assayer.

Doesn't wee flea know the bible condones and never condemns slavery and has different laws for slaves and masters? Does he know that the most vocal abolitionists were deist, agnostics and atheists? Does he not know that the bible was used to promote slavery and those who protested loudest to abolition were christians. Does he not know that Wilberforce had a dislike of slavery before he was a christian and wrote letters oin it to national news papers whe he was still a deist?
I could go on, but what's the point.

686. The Out Campaign

Comment #60542 by BillySands on August 2, 2007 at 7:20 am

Bloody hell, I didn't even realise I was doing it and everyone undersrands. Praize Quetz indeed#89544!

687. The Out Campaign

Comment #60520 by BillySands on August 2, 2007 at 5:50 am

Concerning homosexuality, my understanding is that several variant genes may combine to produce the phenotype. This allows the genes to be preserved in the population as a whole, with only certain combinations causing homosexuality. As steve points out, homosexuals can improve their fitness by helping their straight siblings reproductive investments.

688. The Out Campaign

Comment #60516 by BillySands on August 2, 2007 at 5:43 am

J
I find them both equally difficult to read

689. The Flea Circus Invites a Newcomer!

Comment #60513 by BillySands on August 2, 2007 at 5:36 am

Boy – and I thought Scots were supposed to be mean!

Speak for yourself Fanny Baws. Ever heard of Tom Hunter? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Hunter Never heard him and religion mentioned together.
I've also spent considerably more on christian books than you have on atheist books - tight wad! I would have been better of giving that money that I wasted to charity

I kind of have this old fashioned notion that being open minded means reading about things from different perspectives and trying to listen.

News flash: Insulting people who disagree with you is not being open minded. Try engaging in proper detate for a change. So David, I'm an exchristian. What in your book is there of use to me? What new arguement am I going to come accross that I haven't read in srobel, yancy, mcdowell, lewis, answering the atheist, frontline apologetics, looking unto jesus, clarifying christianit, AIG, christian answers network, the bible, the nlt study bible etc etc etc?

690. The Out Campaign

Comment #60504 by BillySands on August 2, 2007 at 5:15 am

David, since you brought up Burns, you might like this little poem on Calvinists

explained here herehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Willie's_Prayer

1.
O Thou that in the Heavens does dwell,
Wha, as it pleases best Thysel,
Sends ane to Heaven an' ten to Hell
A' for Thy glory,
And no for onie guid or ill
They've done before Thee !

2.
I bless and praise Thy matchless might,
When thousands Thou hast left in night,
That I am here before Thy sight,
For gifts an' grace
A burning and a shining light
To a' this place.

3.
What was I, or my generation,
That I should get sic exaltation ?
I, wha deserv'd most just damnation
For broken laws
Sax thousand years ere my creation,
Thro' Adam's cause !

4.
When from my mither's womb I fell,
Thou might hae plung'd me deep in hell
To gnash my gooms, and weep, and wail
In burning lakes,
Whare damnèd devils roar and yell,
Chain'd to their stakes.

5.
Yet I am here, a chosen sample,
To show Thy grace is great and ample :
I'm here a pillar o' Thy temple,
Strong as a rock,
A guide, a buckler, and example
To a' Thy flock !

6.
But yet, O Lord ! confess I must :
At times I'm fash'd wi fleshly lust ;
An' sometimes, too, in warldly trust,
Vile self gets in ;
But Thou remembers we are dust,
Defiled wi' sin.

7.
O Lord ! yestreen, Thou kens, wi' Meg&#8213;
Thy pardon I sincerely beg&#8213;
O, may't ne'er be a living plague
To my dishonour !
An' I'll ne'er lift a lawless leg
Again upon her.

8.
Besides, I farther maun avow&#8213;
Wi' Leezie's lass, three times, I trow&#8213;
But, Lord, that Friday I was fou,
When I cam near her,
Or else, Thou kens, Thy servant true
Wad never steer her.

9.
Maybe Thou lets this fleshly thorn
Buffet Thy servant e'en and morn,
Lest he owre proud and high should turn
That he's sae gifted :
If sae, Thy han' maun e'en be borne
Until Thou lift it.

10.
Lord, bless Thy chosen in this place,
For here Thou has a chosen race !
But God confound their stubborn face
An' blast their name,
Wha bring Thy elders to disgrace
An' open shame !

11.
Lord, mind Gau'n Hamilton's deserts :
He drinks, an' swears, an' plays at cartes,
Yet has sae monie takin arts
Wi' great and sma',
Frae God's ain Priest the people's hearts
He steals awa.

12.
And when we chasten'd him therefore,
Thou kens how he bred sic a splore,
And set the warld in a roar
O' laughin at us :
Curse Thou his basket and his store,
Kail an' potatoes !

13.
Lord, hear my earnest cry and pray'r
Against that Presbyt're of Ayr !
Thy strong right hand, Lord, mak it bare
Upo' their heads !
Lord, visit them, an' dinna spare,
For their misdeeds !

14.
O Lord, my God ! that glib-tongu'd Aiken,
My vera heart and flesh are quakin
To think how we stood sweatin, shakin,
An' pish'd wi' dread,
While he, wi' hingin lip an' snaking,
Held up his head.

15.
Lord, in Thy day o' vengeance try him !
Lord, visit him wha did employ him !
And pass not in Thy mercy by them
Nor hear their pray'r,
But for Thy people's sake destroy them,
An' dinna spare !

16.
But, Lord, remember me and mine
Wi' mercies temporal and divine,
That I for grace an' gear may shine
Excell'd by nane ;
And a' the glory shall be Thine&#8213;
Amen, Amen !

691. The Out Campaign

Comment #60502 by BillySands on August 2, 2007 at 5:07 am

Quetz, I have also been giving them plenty of dandilion tea

692. The Out Campaign

Comment #60495 by BillySands on August 2, 2007 at 4:43 am

Billy, you need to fast-track the work on my armies. Just in case.

Fear not, the first wave or exploding vampire andrex puppies have been unleashed on you enemies - and they aren't even house trained!

693. The Out Campaign

Comment #60492 by BillySands on August 2, 2007 at 4:28 am

Billy boy, still with the Pope fixation? Is it the name? I'll try again and see if you can manage to grasp this one - I don't really know how to make it any plainer. I have NEVER publically (or privately) claimed that the Pope is the Anti-Christ (personally I would go for Bill Gates), I have always spoken out against such nonsense and I am totally amused that like a dog with a bone, you won't let go, even when you are driving yourself into the realms of surreal absurdity.

Congratulations David, you have guessed which team I support, but are you implying that I am a proddy atheist?
Anyway, on to the pope. Lets make this simple. Did you make the westminister confession of faith?
Does that call the pope the antichrist?.
The answer to both is yes!
Therefore, you pledged before your god that the pope is the antichrist. Am I wrong? You then appear to fueling sectarian bigotry. You see David, you either lied during your oath or you are lying now. Could you clarify. All I hear is anti papist bigotry. I would really like to hear you explain why you took that oath if you dont believe it. It doesnt reflect well on you or your church.

What about forcing islam on your children? It seems you want exclusive right for your ways and no one elses. That appears to be why ou are against what you call political atheism.

May have more time later, but how on earth can you accuse J of making accusations about the bible when he is only repeating what it says about killing homosexuals. I think you avoid this because deep down inside you know this is the work of homophobic jews and if that is human work, then the rest of the bible is likely to be human work and agendas. I think this is why you cocoon yourself here and stick your head in the sand. Yet another example of the fact your beliefs are not rational and the fact that you are not willing to challenge them. Do you think you have actually converted anyone on this site?
I know you have helped close some off to your god.

694. The Flea Circus Invites a Newcomer!

Comment #60482 by BillySands on August 2, 2007 at 4:03 am

Again David fails to provide evidence on request. Any ideas why that may be folks? And I thought he wanted to convince non christians too. Well Davey boy, that requires evidence - no evidence - no belief - I realise you are an exception to this statement though. Please for the love of the baby jesus and all us porr sinners on the express bus to eternal damnation ad torment, please provide some before it is too late. How could you face your god and say that you just insulted us, polarised us from god and never helped save us

695. The Flea Circus Invites a Newcomer!

Comment #60346 by BillySands on August 1, 2007 at 4:27 pm

"my main aim was actually to write for atheists and agnostics."

Is that why you cite the bible and say things like solomon was the wisest man who ever lived? Is that why you insult atheists too?
Where in your writings have you ever produced any real evidence? It is a genuine question

696. The Out Campaign

Comment #60307 by BillySands on August 1, 2007 at 2:33 pm

Happy to oblije Quetz

How about John 14:6? I [jesus] am the way, the truth and the life.No man comes to the father except through me"
David, are you a people pleaser or a god pleaser? Galatians 1:10
I'm a Quetz pleaser and will have a cup of tea now

697. The Out Campaign

Comment #60303 by BillySands on August 1, 2007 at 2:25 pm

Again, my bad. Apologies to the entirety of Scotland here (just in case).

we already have our own version of the christian taliban. Its called the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Christian_Party SCP.

Their policies include:
Reinstate the death penalty for severe crimes apparently you only need two reliable witneses

legislation to ban abortion

increased taxation on alcohol and tobacco

initiatives to bring personal responsibility to bear upon self-inflicted disease (such as alcoholism)

Zero tolerance on drug possession

curfews for under 11 year olds, with mandatory intervention of child protection agencies in relation to any child 10 years or younger that is found unaccompanied on the street after 9:00pm

To bring in the right of teachers to use corporal punishment in extreme circumstances.

greater observance of a weekly day of rest (Sunday)

seek limits around coastlines to preserve stocks of fish and sand eels

promotion in school of chastity before marriage

re-instatement of Section 2A (also known as Section 28), thus calling for the end of "the teaching in any maintained school of the acceptability of homosexuality as a pretended family relationship."

re-introduce corporate readings from the Bible in all Scottish state schools

science curriculum should reflect evidence of creation/design in the universe.

will publicise the catastrophic effect of ungodly behaviour on the life expectancy and health of people, whom God loves and we should love; particularly homosexuality, excessive drinking and the use of addictive substances

restore the right for parents to smack their children

Mind Pollution Levy on 18 Certificate Films, DVDs, CDs, Video Games and Top Shelf magazines haven't they read the violent intolerant filth in the bible?

seek to re-establish the principle of the innocent party in a divorce being acknowledged in any divorce settlement

oppose the practice of altering birth certificates to reflect gender re-orientation surgery

provision of Christian religious education should be mandatory

promote biblical alternatives to the current criminal justice system - presumably stoning gays ant disobedient children

that Mechanical Copyright Protection enjoyed by songwriters should be extended to featured recording artists and record producers
that a minimum royalty percentage (the level of which should be decided through consultation with the music industry) should be paid to featured recording artists and producers on exactly the same basis as is currently paid to songwriters.

Pretty bad huh? Answer the question about compulsory Islam before you comment Dave. Did you vote for them?

698. The Out Campaign

Comment #60272 by BillySands on August 1, 2007 at 12:43 pm

David,
perhaps if you were to answer all those unanswerered questions on homosexuality etc I wouldn't keep asking - neither would Steve.

I think that labelling the Pope as the antichrist is a stupid and sectarian thing to do.

Good, but why did you publically state it then? If you truely believe he is not the antichrist, do you then concede it was a stupid and inflammatory thing to say? Should you not speak out against it? After all, we think it makes you look a bigot - what do you think the catholics make of it? You clearly haven't experienced this hatred first hand. So do you accept that you are fanning the flames? It is a simple question. Dont be evasive.

By the way I would highly recommend the current Pope's new book on Jesus.

Is that the one where he says that only catholics are proper christians?

Thanks for the recommendation though, but I've read the bible and have given you many reasons why it is not evidence for god. If however you actually want to properly discuss Micah 5:2, Isaiah 7:14 and the census of quirinius for example, that would be more productive - especially in view of your new found willingness to consider that you may be wrong. If jesus appears I'll say I'm wrong, but misrepresentation of the anthropic principle and god of the gaps arguements are not evidence of a god.

I also asked you about islamic prayers. Answer that and I wont have to ask you again? Likewise homosexuality and the concept of original sin and the morality of punishment. We could even link it to that other unfinished stuff about paleopathology and your view of the fall.

I am not in a position to make that kind of judgement. However I do know that God will judge justly and fairly..

And I thought you were willing to reconsider. Tell me? is this comment based in reason?
It seems you are just saying "I dont know, trust god and blindly accept distasteful doctrines
and dont question them". Do you think that is going to convince anyone?

'facts are cheisl that winna ding'

Nice to see you quoting an atheist

As regards the Nicene Creed, I accept every one of those statements of belief and believe them with all my heart and mind.

So you don't think you could be wrong

the body of Jesus. When I die discovering there is no God. And a consistent atheist!

Oh dear, where to start?
1. This pre-assumes Jesus actually existed
2. this also presupposes an afterlife and since this criterion is not going to be fulfulled in the next 30 or so years, you are essentially saying nothing will change your mind
3. You a) make a statement - not backed up in any way whatsoever that atheists (presumably all since you still believe) are inconsistent.
b) tou make some unjustified leap between atheist consistency and the existence of god. Is there such a thing as a logical oxmoron? Non believers provide evidence for god????? So what do you make of the inconsistency of believers?

Loads more to pull apart, but I'll leave it there for now

699. The Out Campaign

Comment #60208 by BillySands on August 1, 2007 at 10:11 am

Thanks SG a bottle of buckie a day keeps the sanity at bay.

I thought freeze dried neds would make good pets. Just add buckie and poof! ned infestation. Unlike cats that bring you mice, they will bring you cool things like DVD players and playstations.

Haw big man huv ye seen http://www.bloodbus.com/
It's pure mental.

700. The Out Campaign

Comment #60196 by BillySands on August 1, 2007 at 9:41 am

Quetz,

He is now (mis)quoting Burns as authority. He is either speaking in tongues or he means

Facts are chiels that winna ding

Facts can't be denied

Personally I am a native English speaking Scot though. This may help you: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scNLfr1EP08

PS he is our new professor of divinity