701. The Flea Circus Invites a Newcomer!

Comment #60601 by BillySands on August 2, 2007 at 11:40 am

I've an idea, let's compare our atheist moral values with that of David who needs to be told right from wrong.
I'll start the ball rolling.
Is homosexuality a crime? I say no - over to you David

What about rape? I say it's wrong. The bible is both for and against it - David?


Cold blooded infanticide - I say this is wrong. David's god ocassionally demands this - Comments David?

Genocide - I say wrong. David?

relogious intolerance - bad David, what about those cananites?

That should be enough for now

These include alcohol, drugs, career, fame, wealth, immoral sex and related dubious entertainments and a list of other substitutes.

I know a couple of christians so immoral that those would be their better qualities

702. The Out Campaign

Comment #60572 by BillySands on August 2, 2007 at 9:28 am

How rewarding to see young J being touched by Quetz. It makes it all so worth while. Celebratory cup of tea anyone?

703. The Flea Circus Invites a Newcomer!

Comment #60571 by BillySands on August 2, 2007 at 9:25 am

and end up trading slander and ad hominem attacks, rather than debate specific issues.

Wee flea doesn't debate the issues that make his position look stupid. Even those posters that he claims to like dont get their penetrating challenges answered. He could learn a lot from Mark Taunton, but I dont want him contaminating that thread.

I think he likes the attention.

704. The Out Campaign

Comment #60569 by BillySands on August 2, 2007 at 9:19 am

After that, have a cup of ~985:-) tea, but NO OTHER type.

Amazing, I had not read that, but had just had a cup of tea in a meeting - PRAIIIISEEE QUETZ.

Philip #23@==_1 his will shall be +@~£$&* Tell me, is Klunk from catch that pigeon a follower too?

Yorker. I thought I could see a picture of Jesus in it.

705. The Flea Circus Invites a Newcomer!

Comment #60567 by BillySands on August 2, 2007 at 9:11 am

Nice summary the assayer.

Doesn't wee flea know the bible condones and never condemns slavery and has different laws for slaves and masters? Does he know that the most vocal abolitionists were deist, agnostics and atheists? Does he not know that the bible was used to promote slavery and those who protested loudest to abolition were christians. Does he not know that Wilberforce had a dislike of slavery before he was a christian and wrote letters oin it to national news papers whe he was still a deist?
I could go on, but what's the point.

706. The Out Campaign

Comment #60542 by BillySands on August 2, 2007 at 7:20 am

Bloody hell, I didn't even realise I was doing it and everyone undersrands. Praize Quetz indeed#89544!

707. The Out Campaign

Comment #60520 by BillySands on August 2, 2007 at 5:50 am

Concerning homosexuality, my understanding is that several variant genes may combine to produce the phenotype. This allows the genes to be preserved in the population as a whole, with only certain combinations causing homosexuality. As steve points out, homosexuals can improve their fitness by helping their straight siblings reproductive investments.

708. The Out Campaign

Comment #60516 by BillySands on August 2, 2007 at 5:43 am

J
I find them both equally difficult to read

709. The Flea Circus Invites a Newcomer!

Comment #60513 by BillySands on August 2, 2007 at 5:36 am

Boy – and I thought Scots were supposed to be mean!

Speak for yourself Fanny Baws. Ever heard of Tom Hunter? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Hunter Never heard him and religion mentioned together.
I've also spent considerably more on christian books than you have on atheist books - tight wad! I would have been better of giving that money that I wasted to charity

I kind of have this old fashioned notion that being open minded means reading about things from different perspectives and trying to listen.

News flash: Insulting people who disagree with you is not being open minded. Try engaging in proper detate for a change. So David, I'm an exchristian. What in your book is there of use to me? What new arguement am I going to come accross that I haven't read in srobel, yancy, mcdowell, lewis, answering the atheist, frontline apologetics, looking unto jesus, clarifying christianit, AIG, christian answers network, the bible, the nlt study bible etc etc etc?

710. The Out Campaign

Comment #60504 by BillySands on August 2, 2007 at 5:15 am

David, since you brought up Burns, you might like this little poem on Calvinists

explained here herehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Willie's_Prayer

1.
O Thou that in the Heavens does dwell,
Wha, as it pleases best Thysel,
Sends ane to Heaven an' ten to Hell
A' for Thy glory,
And no for onie guid or ill
They've done before Thee !

2.
I bless and praise Thy matchless might,
When thousands Thou hast left in night,
That I am here before Thy sight,
For gifts an' grace
A burning and a shining light
To a' this place.

3.
What was I, or my generation,
That I should get sic exaltation ?
I, wha deserv'd most just damnation
For broken laws
Sax thousand years ere my creation,
Thro' Adam's cause !

4.
When from my mither's womb I fell,
Thou might hae plung'd me deep in hell
To gnash my gooms, and weep, and wail
In burning lakes,
Whare damnèd devils roar and yell,
Chain'd to their stakes.

5.
Yet I am here, a chosen sample,
To show Thy grace is great and ample :
I'm here a pillar o' Thy temple,
Strong as a rock,
A guide, a buckler, and example
To a' Thy flock !

6.
But yet, O Lord ! confess I must :
At times I'm fash'd wi fleshly lust ;
An' sometimes, too, in warldly trust,
Vile self gets in ;
But Thou remembers we are dust,
Defiled wi' sin.

7.
O Lord ! yestreen, Thou kens, wi' Meg―
Thy pardon I sincerely beg―
O, may't ne'er be a living plague
To my dishonour !
An' I'll ne'er lift a lawless leg
Again upon her.

8.
Besides, I farther maun avow―
Wi' Leezie's lass, three times, I trow―
But, Lord, that Friday I was fou,
When I cam near her,
Or else, Thou kens, Thy servant true
Wad never steer her.

9.
Maybe Thou lets this fleshly thorn
Buffet Thy servant e'en and morn,
Lest he owre proud and high should turn
That he's sae gifted :
If sae, Thy han' maun e'en be borne
Until Thou lift it.

10.
Lord, bless Thy chosen in this place,
For here Thou has a chosen race !
But God confound their stubborn face
An' blast their name,
Wha bring Thy elders to disgrace
An' open shame !

11.
Lord, mind Gau'n Hamilton's deserts :
He drinks, an' swears, an' plays at cartes,
Yet has sae monie takin arts
Wi' great and sma',
Frae God's ain Priest the people's hearts
He steals awa.

12.
And when we chasten'd him therefore,
Thou kens how he bred sic a splore,
And set the warld in a roar
O' laughin at us :
Curse Thou his basket and his store,
Kail an' potatoes !

13.
Lord, hear my earnest cry and pray'r
Against that Presbyt're of Ayr !
Thy strong right hand, Lord, mak it bare
Upo' their heads !
Lord, visit them, an' dinna spare,
For their misdeeds !

14.
O Lord, my God ! that glib-tongu'd Aiken,
My vera heart and flesh are quakin
To think how we stood sweatin, shakin,
An' pish'd wi' dread,
While he, wi' hingin lip an' snaking,
Held up his head.

15.
Lord, in Thy day o' vengeance try him !
Lord, visit him wha did employ him !
And pass not in Thy mercy by them
Nor hear their pray'r,
But for Thy people's sake destroy them,
An' dinna spare !

16.
But, Lord, remember me and mine
Wi' mercies temporal and divine,
That I for grace an' gear may shine
Excell'd by nane ;
And a' the glory shall be Thine―
Amen, Amen !

711. The Out Campaign

Comment #60502 by BillySands on August 2, 2007 at 5:07 am

Quetz, I have also been giving them plenty of dandilion tea

712. The Out Campaign

Comment #60495 by BillySands on August 2, 2007 at 4:43 am

Billy, you need to fast-track the work on my armies. Just in case.

Fear not, the first wave or exploding vampire andrex puppies have been unleashed on you enemies - and they aren't even house trained!

713. The Out Campaign

Comment #60492 by BillySands on August 2, 2007 at 4:28 am

Billy boy, still with the Pope fixation? Is it the name? I'll try again and see if you can manage to grasp this one - I don't really know how to make it any plainer. I have NEVER publically (or privately) claimed that the Pope is the Anti-Christ (personally I would go for Bill Gates), I have always spoken out against such nonsense and I am totally amused that like a dog with a bone, you won't let go, even when you are driving yourself into the realms of surreal absurdity.

Congratulations David, you have guessed which team I support, but are you implying that I am a proddy atheist?
Anyway, on to the pope. Lets make this simple. Did you make the westminister confession of faith?
Does that call the pope the antichrist?.
The answer to both is yes!
Therefore, you pledged before your god that the pope is the antichrist. Am I wrong? You then appear to fueling sectarian bigotry. You see David, you either lied during your oath or you are lying now. Could you clarify. All I hear is anti papist bigotry. I would really like to hear you explain why you took that oath if you dont believe it. It doesnt reflect well on you or your church.

What about forcing islam on your children? It seems you want exclusive right for your ways and no one elses. That appears to be why ou are against what you call political atheism.

May have more time later, but how on earth can you accuse J of making accusations about the bible when he is only repeating what it says about killing homosexuals. I think you avoid this because deep down inside you know this is the work of homophobic jews and if that is human work, then the rest of the bible is likely to be human work and agendas. I think this is why you cocoon yourself here and stick your head in the sand. Yet another example of the fact your beliefs are not rational and the fact that you are not willing to challenge them. Do you think you have actually converted anyone on this site?
I know you have helped close some off to your god.

714. The Flea Circus Invites a Newcomer!

Comment #60482 by BillySands on August 2, 2007 at 4:03 am

Again David fails to provide evidence on request. Any ideas why that may be folks? And I thought he wanted to convince non christians too. Well Davey boy, that requires evidence - no evidence - no belief - I realise you are an exception to this statement though. Please for the love of the baby jesus and all us porr sinners on the express bus to eternal damnation ad torment, please provide some before it is too late. How could you face your god and say that you just insulted us, polarised us from god and never helped save us

715. The Flea Circus Invites a Newcomer!

Comment #60346 by BillySands on August 1, 2007 at 4:27 pm

"my main aim was actually to write for atheists and agnostics."

Is that why you cite the bible and say things like solomon was the wisest man who ever lived? Is that why you insult atheists too?
Where in your writings have you ever produced any real evidence? It is a genuine question

716. The Out Campaign

Comment #60307 by BillySands on August 1, 2007 at 2:33 pm

Happy to oblije Quetz

How about John 14:6? I [jesus] am the way, the truth and the life.No man comes to the father except through me"
David, are you a people pleaser or a god pleaser? Galatians 1:10
I'm a Quetz pleaser and will have a cup of tea now

717. The Out Campaign

Comment #60303 by BillySands on August 1, 2007 at 2:25 pm

Again, my bad. Apologies to the entirety of Scotland here (just in case).

we already have our own version of the christian taliban. Its called the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Christian_Party SCP.

Their policies include:
Reinstate the death penalty for severe crimes apparently you only need two reliable witneses

legislation to ban abortion

increased taxation on alcohol and tobacco

initiatives to bring personal responsibility to bear upon self-inflicted disease (such as alcoholism)

Zero tolerance on drug possession

curfews for under 11 year olds, with mandatory intervention of child protection agencies in relation to any child 10 years or younger that is found unaccompanied on the street after 9:00pm

To bring in the right of teachers to use corporal punishment in extreme circumstances.

greater observance of a weekly day of rest (Sunday)

seek limits around coastlines to preserve stocks of fish and sand eels

promotion in school of chastity before marriage

re-instatement of Section 2A (also known as Section 28), thus calling for the end of "the teaching in any maintained school of the acceptability of homosexuality as a pretended family relationship."

re-introduce corporate readings from the Bible in all Scottish state schools

science curriculum should reflect evidence of creation/design in the universe.

will publicise the catastrophic effect of ungodly behaviour on the life expectancy and health of people, whom God loves and we should love; particularly homosexuality, excessive drinking and the use of addictive substances

restore the right for parents to smack their children

Mind Pollution Levy on 18 Certificate Films, DVDs, CDs, Video Games and Top Shelf magazines haven't they read the violent intolerant filth in the bible?

seek to re-establish the principle of the innocent party in a divorce being acknowledged in any divorce settlement

oppose the practice of altering birth certificates to reflect gender re-orientation surgery

provision of Christian religious education should be mandatory

promote biblical alternatives to the current criminal justice system - presumably stoning gays ant disobedient children

that Mechanical Copyright Protection enjoyed by songwriters should be extended to featured recording artists and record producers
that a minimum royalty percentage (the level of which should be decided through consultation with the music industry) should be paid to featured recording artists and producers on exactly the same basis as is currently paid to songwriters.

Pretty bad huh? Answer the question about compulsory Islam before you comment Dave. Did you vote for them?

718. The Out Campaign

Comment #60272 by BillySands on August 1, 2007 at 12:43 pm

David,
perhaps if you were to answer all those unanswerered questions on homosexuality etc I wouldn't keep asking - neither would Steve.

I think that labelling the Pope as the antichrist is a stupid and sectarian thing to do.

Good, but why did you publically state it then? If you truely believe he is not the antichrist, do you then concede it was a stupid and inflammatory thing to say? Should you not speak out against it? After all, we think it makes you look a bigot - what do you think the catholics make of it? You clearly haven't experienced this hatred first hand. So do you accept that you are fanning the flames? It is a simple question. Dont be evasive.

By the way I would highly recommend the current Pope's new book on Jesus.

Is that the one where he says that only catholics are proper christians?

Thanks for the recommendation though, but I've read the bible and have given you many reasons why it is not evidence for god. If however you actually want to properly discuss Micah 5:2, Isaiah 7:14 and the census of quirinius for example, that would be more productive - especially in view of your new found willingness to consider that you may be wrong. If jesus appears I'll say I'm wrong, but misrepresentation of the anthropic principle and god of the gaps arguements are not evidence of a god.

I also asked you about islamic prayers. Answer that and I wont have to ask you again? Likewise homosexuality and the concept of original sin and the morality of punishment. We could even link it to that other unfinished stuff about paleopathology and your view of the fall.

I am not in a position to make that kind of judgement. However I do know that God will judge justly and fairly..

And I thought you were willing to reconsider. Tell me? is this comment based in reason?
It seems you are just saying "I dont know, trust god and blindly accept distasteful doctrines
and dont question them". Do you think that is going to convince anyone?

'facts are cheisl that winna ding'

Nice to see you quoting an atheist

As regards the Nicene Creed, I accept every one of those statements of belief and believe them with all my heart and mind.

So you don't think you could be wrong

the body of Jesus. When I die discovering there is no God. And a consistent atheist!

Oh dear, where to start?
1. This pre-assumes Jesus actually existed
2. this also presupposes an afterlife and since this criterion is not going to be fulfulled in the next 30 or so years, you are essentially saying nothing will change your mind
3. You a) make a statement - not backed up in any way whatsoever that atheists (presumably all since you still believe) are inconsistent.
b) tou make some unjustified leap between atheist consistency and the existence of god. Is there such a thing as a logical oxmoron? Non believers provide evidence for god????? So what do you make of the inconsistency of believers?

Loads more to pull apart, but I'll leave it there for now

719. The Out Campaign

Comment #60208 by BillySands on August 1, 2007 at 10:11 am

Thanks SG a bottle of buckie a day keeps the sanity at bay.

I thought freeze dried neds would make good pets. Just add buckie and poof! ned infestation. Unlike cats that bring you mice, they will bring you cool things like DVD players and playstations.

Haw big man huv ye seen http://www.bloodbus.com/
It's pure mental.

720. The Out Campaign

Comment #60196 by BillySands on August 1, 2007 at 9:41 am

Quetz,

He is now (mis)quoting Burns as authority. He is either speaking in tongues or he means

Facts are chiels that winna ding

Facts can't be denied

Personally I am a native English speaking Scot though. This may help you: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scNLfr1EP08

PS he is our new professor of divinity

721. The Out Campaign

Comment #60193 by BillySands on August 1, 2007 at 9:31 am

Hey SG,
to quote Mugatu "I must be on crazy pills. Am I the only one who can see it?"

Of coure there is only one person here who cant see it.

I'm off to indulge in some lapsang souchong - bliss!

Yorker, you were lucky tit 'ave tea bags. When I were a lad, we 'ad tit make do with hedge clippins and an old sock we found down tit dump. Them minister would come round and drink all our tea before sending us down pit http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1a1wHxTyo

722. The Out Campaign

Comment #60187 by BillySands on August 1, 2007 at 9:21 am

Glasgow fish wifie? I always thought it was Glasgow sweetie wifie and Aberdonian fish wifie. Sexist and inaccurate!

723. The Out Campaign

Comment #60184 by BillySands on August 1, 2007 at 9:07 am

Well said Elli. He is more to be pitied than scolded - but scolding can be fun.

here is another thread where david gets a "fisting" over homosexuality http://richarddawkins.net/articleComments,1197,Debate-between-Richard-Dawkins-and-Robert-Winston,Today-BBC,page1#comments

You will see he is very one dimentional. We tend not to ban him because he is like a ferral pet that we hope one day sees the light. He is also good for silent doubters who read these threads

724. The Out Campaign

Comment #60182 by BillySands on August 1, 2007 at 8:57 am

Hi David,
You remind us that this thread is abaout the out campaign, then you go off at tangents. Who's being an inconsistent and silly boy then?

You still didn't answer my question about forcing islam on your children. I think that I know the answer, but I want to hear you say it - after all, I could be wrong and you may actually think that forcing the bible on children is equally wrong.

That brings me to the next point - you say you could be wrong. Come on, you dont really believe that do you? The reason I say that is because elsewhere you talk of the certainty of god's existence? So have you developed doubts, learned to reason or just internally inconsistant?

As for your comment on sin, I hope quetz doesn't mind me asking - I'm sure you will ignore my challenge and make some predictable insult. You acknowledge then that we are born sinful (I dont, we are born human). It sureley would then be evil of a hypothetical god to send sinners to hell then.

"I agree with your psychological assessment of D. Robertson. However, as is the case with wonked-out individuals, they think they are JUST FINE. "

Hilarious. I love it! The definition of someone who is mad is someone who denies it when you accuse them of being mad. Superb. You could not make this stuff up….

Cant he see the irony of this comment :-)

Of course Ellie, Corylus can not trust you to read it for himself (maybe its because he is an inherent sexist?).

Yes, Elli, you be a good little girl and dont you worry your pretty little head about that nasty Corylus.
Tell me David according to many in your church (perhaps even you), what is a woman's place again?
Lets consult St Paul shall we? God has it in for women, and lays all the blame for the original sin on Eve (1Tim. 2:12-14), and women are the property of men and were created for men, because we are superior. They must be silent in church and never hold authority over men, or even teach a man (1Cor. 11:8-9, 14:34-35, Ephesians 5:22-24, Colossians 3:18, 1Tim.2:11-14). All however is not lost, as a woman can be saved through childbirth (1Tim. 2:15). The only problem is that God would rather men didn't get married (1Cor. 7:8), and for those lucky enough to get a man, child birth will be incredibly painful because women are evil simnners that corrupted gods perfect creation (Gen.3:16). Your god is a misogynist. You believe in moral absolutes, perhaps you could justify making a woman marry her rapist - and to add insult to injury, it is her father that must be compensated (Deut 22:28-29). And tell me why driving up chocholate alley way is wrong? All you can say is its in the bible - seems a poor justification to me

finally Love your enemy and do good to those who hate is not about power. Since when have you treated people who disagree with you that way. Even Quetz, J and Philip get the occasional Ad hominem thrown at them. You case most of your own problems on this site. I predict that if you practice that, things will improve and folk could have a discussion without the gratuitous sweeping insults hurled by you.

OK one more DO YOU ACCEPT THAT LABELLING THE POPE AS THE ANTICHRIST FUELS HATE - AND BY SAYING SO YOU ARE CONTRIBUTING TO SECTARIAN HATRED?

And dont pretend it is off thread because most of your comments are not about the thread.

725. The Out Campaign

Comment #60171 by BillySands on August 1, 2007 at 8:17 am

Katherine, if your housemates are good friends they will respect your views. If not, I think it is always important to do what you feel is right and not bow to peer pressure. If they expect you to say grace at meal times etc, then you could start by pointing out that you dont believe in it. I found a lot of my christian "friends" stoped hanging out when I started to lose my faith, but you always have to be true to yourself. You never know, your housemates may harbour secret doubts - that was something else I found about some of my other christian friends. You could find a local brights group to meet like minded individuals.
Good Luck

726. The Out Campaign

Comment #60152 by BillySands on August 1, 2007 at 6:41 am

Forgive them quetz (especially Huxley and Steve) for they know not what they drink.

By the way Steve, mine's a large tea with milk and two sugar that I brew in Russells Tea pot

727. The Out Campaign

Comment #60141 by BillySands on August 1, 2007 at 5:56 am

Yes, I too long for the day when all blends are considered equal. They are all from quetz and he give to those in accordance with their tastes. I look forward to the English breakfast drinker laying down with the darljeeling brewer. It will be so wonderful. Earl Grey will no longer be looked upon as posh by the happy shopper brand drinker, and there will be sticky scones a pleny. My pot runneth over.
So, what do you say J go on - go on go on go on

(we really are starting to sound like christians now)

728. The Out Campaign

Comment #60133 by BillySands on August 1, 2007 at 5:09 am

Ah High priest Philip, your talk of holy tea made me think about how I haven't seen lapsang souchong on sale for a while. Anyway, Quetz delivered. I was getting my lunch in a shop that I dont associate with tea, but something made me look up the back - and there it was. Even when we dont ask, he is good to his followers. What more proof do David and J require?

729. The Out Campaign

Comment #60121 by BillySands on August 1, 2007 at 4:17 am

Philip,

I didn't want to destroy your street cred :-) Us followers of quetz must stick together. Young J is a quetz agnostic, but I pray that one day he will see the light.
Quetz, what will you have us do? Shall we sacrifice a shrubbery unto thee?

730. The Out Campaign

Comment #60118 by BillySands on August 1, 2007 at 4:09 am

Welcome to the club irateatheist. I have been told that I have a diseased mind and an intolerant hatred of religion - despite having religious friends. Apparently when I hit him with reason I am being laughable. It's all quite amusing really and just rolls off me. I would take it as a compliment, because he cant deal with your comments.

Nice evaluation Corylus. I'm reminded of the Fawlty towers episode where the psychiatrist visits. Just as he leaves, he looks at Basil curled up with his hands over his head and hopping, and says "there is enough material there for a whole conference"

I wonder if Richard's comment made his day. However it was more like a boot in the nuts before being told to get out of the way than an acknowledgement of a worthy advesary.

Concerning his martyr complex. There are apparently 12 000 members here. Let's assume about 200 have ever bothered to respond to him, and that 10 were gratuitously abusive. That means a staggering 1.67% members gave him any attention and an even more mind bogglingly small 0.083% were down right rude to him with no reason (I can however only recall one such poster- who incidentally I told was out of line - David never acknowledged that) So, to my knowledge only 0.0083% of posters have been gratuitously rude without provocation (Actually, cant remember if this guy was provoced or not - he's called Mika and on Davids letter thread if anyone is interested - David can quote the post number off the top of his head). So, the overall data suggests that the people here are not like David makes them out to be. That sounds like a mental illness and he really should seek proper help - none of this praying to jesus rubbish, but real psychiatric help

J

I'm 'a credit to this site'.

Looks like you're teachers pet :-)

731. The Out Campaign

Comment #59971 by BillySands on July 31, 2007 at 9:14 am

Yorker

You mean this one? "It certainly beats wearing a dead jewish blasphemer on a stick."

Enjoy it David.

Corylus wise words - Daivd, if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out.... Although I will miss the comedy value.

SG Talking of indoctrination, I saw these THESE bible toys today

The makers clearly realise the value of brainwashing children at an early age. However, to help them create a range of toys to teach biblical values, I have some ideas of my own they may want to try. How about Genocidal Joshua, Murdering Moses and Homophobic Hosea? The latter comes with real throwing motion and can hurl pieces of gravel at your television screen every time Graham Norton appears (admittedly, this will appeal to non homophobes too).

Bicyclerepairman I've only just started reading the Ancestor's tail, so I couldn't comment. It's a sad reflection on dishonest Dave, but my initial thaought was "bet you're lying matey and you have'nt read it"

Guys I think David is just insulting us because his church no longer have the right to burn dissenters. SAD REALLY.

Oh David, the bible does actually tell us that we are concieved sinful (PS 51) I also doubt you have read this book either

732. The Out Campaign

Comment #59967 by BillySands on July 31, 2007 at 8:59 am

Ah there's the voice of alzheimers we have missed.

Comment #59882 by BillySands - Richard, obviously I cannot blame you for every one of your followers and so it would be and fear of me to attribute Billy to you.

First error, I'm not a follower of Richard. I just happen to agree with him on many things. I know that being religious an all, you need. someone to tell you what to think - or in your case not- but that's not how we work. Perhaps you could point out your issues here, but then that would require maturity on your part.

Next, the comment to which you refer. I was pointing out reasons why people would want to meet together. That seems to have somehow become warped in your mind. At times like this I wonder "have you sat down too fast and dammaged your brain ay your arse hits the seat?" So, what is so wrong with that post?

He's good fun though! I'm not quite sure how someone gets from discussing the formation of an atheist 'out' campaign to discussing the nature of the antichrist in one easy jump!

Let me explain it for the impaired - and it is not one jump. I'll type it slowly so you can keep up - good job it doesn't do joined up writing.
1 You seem to think Atheist meeting up is a religious thing - I refer you to the post you have difficulty understanding.

2 You sarcastically call RD the truth

3 Baeoz makes a valid point about you.

4 I add to that by pointing out that even amongst christian you think you are on the right path

5 I point out the pope hypocricy because - well, hell, why not. It shows you up - an ad hominem that is not a fallacy.

See, its as easy as A B C. Repeat after me David A B... what comes next?

I have never thought, taught or said that the Pope is the antichrist. And I regard the whole idea as ludicrous and pathetic.

For the upteenth time, you did make that oath. Now, what was the point of that oath? And, If you disagreed with it, why did you not speak out? Are you a coward as well as a hypocrite and deciever? Tell me, what do you think oaths like that do for building bridges between catholics and protestants? It's worse than Donald Finlay singing the sash. You are basically fuelling hate - and you know it. That both disgusting and perverse.

THe bible takes oats seriously
Matthew 23:20 He, then, who takes an oath by the altar, takes it by the altar and by all things on it,And he who takes an oath by the Temple, takes it by the Temple and by him whose house it is.And he who takes an oath by heaven, takes it by the seat of God, and by him who is seated on it.

So, this oath you took, who were you making it to? God?

I would like to know how you get from having never seen god to getting to you are as sure of his existence as you are of your wifes?

So, you are teaching science? But you know nothing about it. Remember SG asking you about volcanoes and me asking you about evolution and the implications for the fall?

Not suprisingly, you have dealt with noting with any substance.

What about your childern being forced to pray to Allah?

733. The Out Campaign

Comment #59943 by BillySands on July 31, 2007 at 7:47 am

Arent the pope and satan one and the same.

If enough folk sign up to go to that restaurant, I would. I could stay with some (christian) friends over there :-)

734. The Out Campaign

Comment #59932 by BillySands on July 31, 2007 at 6:53 am

I was also wondering, What would wee fleas' position be if his children were forced in to muslim worship at school. I've a slight feeling that he may want it stopped.

735. The Out Campaign

Comment #59931 by BillySands on July 31, 2007 at 6:48 am

By this logic, YOU ARE BORN WRONG.

It is even worse than that. You are CONCIEVED wrong psalm 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."

Psalm 51 is a great self esteem crusher. there is also verse 14 "Save me from bloodguilt" - which refers to inherited sin. In fact, the christian god likes punishing people for the sins of their ancestors. For example, let's take Deut 5:9 "You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me".

How is following this stupidity good for anyone?

736. The Out Campaign

Comment #59923 by BillySands on July 31, 2007 at 6:04 am

There a a number of good points comining up on a few threads at the moment about how faith is bad for your esteem and solving problems in your life - or indeed how you go about your life.

The whole central message about judeo-christian belief is that there is something wrong with you and that you deserve gods judgement. You have to believe this to be a christian . What an terrible way to think of yourself. People talk of freedom through jesus. I say what rubbish, there is however true freedom in ditching this bullshit and accepting that you have failings, but you are not defined by them.

737. The Out Campaign

Comment #59902 by BillySands on July 31, 2007 at 3:56 am

Ah, but he had his finger crossed behind his back while he said, it so it didn't count.

What? A minister Lie - I've never heard such outrageous papism and devil worshippry :-)

But it would be nice for David to explain this little problem to any new members

738. Richard Dawkins on Hardtalk

Comment #59900 by BillySands on July 31, 2007 at 3:52 am

Cheers V

I have found him and engaged :-)
You really are lucky that you have never expericed this stuff. Philip tells a sad story on the other thread that is worth reading to see what this nonsense can do to folk http://richarddawkins.net/articleComments,1471,The-Out-Campaign,Richard-Dawkins,page2#59869 . It reminded me of some stuff too that I have now posted on it.

739. The Out Campaign

Comment #59896 by BillySands on July 31, 2007 at 3:41 am

I want to help.

That was a really good post Philip. I have met people like your friend too who have been emotionally abused by the belief that god must be punishing them. I have met people who have been raped or abused as children who thought that god was punishing them for various reasons - how is that belief ever going to bring healing to these people?
I know people (one in David's church) who constanlty live in fear of going to hell if they enjoy or express themselves too much. I've also known drug addicts sexually abuse other christians because the church has said to them that their faith has renewed their heart and jesus has changed them. The church through faith allowed these people to pursue relationships despite their problems. This person should have been getting some proper relational therapy. As for his victim - she became depressive, had pannic attacks (although the church called them "demonic" attacks), contemplated suicide, turned to drink, cut herself repeatedly and cycled between anorexia and bulimia. The extra nasty twist comes from the fact that they both thought that god was bringing them together.

Killing this god nonsense (by non violent means such as this campaign before wee flea pipes up) is the best way to help.

740. The Out Campaign

Comment #59891 by BillySands on July 31, 2007 at 3:10 am

Well said Baeoz. Robertson like the rest think his way is the only valid way. Did you know that he made an oath stating the Pope to be the antichrist?

Nice new avatar SG

741. The Out Campaign

Comment #59889 by BillySands on July 31, 2007 at 3:04 am

How dare anyone accuse the author of The Ancestor's Tale of giving up on science? I invite the Reverend Robertson to read it from cover to cover (he might learn something about evolution and other aspects of real life) and then try to estimate how many scientific papers that five year labour of love is equivalent to.

Yes, you should set him an essay on genomic evolution and see how long it takes him to do background reading etc. It's not like religion where you just write how you feel and what the voices in your head are telling you that day.

May I also suggest that the reads TGD properly

742. The Out Campaign

Comment #59882 by BillySands on July 31, 2007 at 2:47 am

Welcome Back Wee Flea - I've missed you. Did you get any on holiday then? How did you cope being separated from your hero Richard for so long?

Why do you have a problem with Atheists getting organised? Is it fear? There are plenty of good reasons for this. Some are opressed and need encouragement (that's not religious) Others like the fellowship of like thinkers to echange ideas with (definately not religious) Some are concerned with the truth and want to defend science and free thought against fundie opressors (again not religious).

743. Richard Dawkins on Hardtalk

Comment #59881 by BillySands on July 31, 2007 at 2:38 am

Billy- you might be interested to know that Wee Flea has returned.

Where? Is he Fides in disguise?

744. Richard Dawkins on Hardtalk

Comment #59878 by BillySands on July 31, 2007 at 2:15 am

You pasted a quote of mine where I was clearly talking about me and then used it to say I was talking about you. I wasn't by the way. Let me make it clearer, read back through the quote, when it says 'I', that means me, not you.

Yes, but in the context it is far from unreasonable to assume that you were also refering to me. Particularly when preceded by your worzel comment.

Do enlighten me, what are these straw men to whom you refer?

745. Richard Dawkins on Hardtalk

Comment #59730 by BillySands on July 30, 2007 at 12:59 pm

J
Theists just dont get humble. Moses, the supposed author of the pentateuch had this to say about himself: "Now the man Moses was very humble, more than all men who were on the face of the earth." (num 12:3)

746. Richard Dawkins on Hardtalk

Comment #59729 by BillySands on July 30, 2007 at 12:51 pm

When I can't work something out and I need to, I ask someone to help me (for example a plumber with a plumbing difficulty, I don't start building an Ark). However, if I don't need to know (for example, how to build an aeroplane), I just accept that someone else does (and then I buy my ticket). It's called humility to accept that one doesn't know everything (and also that one cannot know everything).

Fides, are you for real? You make my point perfectly by assuming that there was something wrong with me – that I did not seek help. Amazing Sherlock, how did you manage to presume what I did and get it so spectacularly wrong? How stupid are you to assume that? a perfect example of the theists deluded way of thinking concerning doubt. For your information, I saw ministers, Christian friends, various members of my church, and other churches and none of them could answer my doubts. After much discussion and an inability of the others to come up with a reasonable answer, I was told to just trust god. Hell, I was even told by a few that I must have some unconfessed sins on several occasions. Even asking god to show what they were got no answer. What higher help could I have sought? I hope one day you learn to think for yourself too.

Looks like your straw man is a smouldering heap of napamled bullshit.

But thanks for giving others an insight into deluded thinking

747. Richard Dawkins on Hardtalk

Comment #59670 by BillySands on July 30, 2007 at 5:15 am

Tell me, someone, why is it that people seem unable to distance themselves from inculcated belief systems in order to embrace reason (or another point of view)?

I agree with what Quetz said (he is my new god after all)

Faith is one of those things you just know is true, and you feel it too. You dont look at problems with your faith logically. You know it is true, so the problem lies with you. You know that god is perfect and always knows best. This is your starting point in viewing and interpreting the world/bible/human nature/ relationships/ suffering etc. When you cant work out something you go "I dont know, but god does and I'm sure he has a good reason for not explaining it to me" This is mental slavery and it is not good for you. I believe this holds a lot of people back and stops them taking charge of their lives. So, if you know god knows best (and you buy the lie that you dont if you arew struggling with faith) when you approach every challenge, it is hard to see the godless simplicity responsible for the challenge - be it natural disasters, unfairness, biblical contradictions, god not doing what he says he will etc.
I guess I got out because I reached challenge overload and I started realising that my problems with faith were not my fault and that I did do everything that I could to stay faithful. Looking back now, I realise just how toxic that position of faith was. I now know that shit happens because it just does and that I am the only one in control of my life and destiny. If I succeed or fail at something, be it relationships, career or sport, then it is me alone who fails or wins, and that is the most empowering thing that I have found in atheism.

I contend that I am able to listen to and evaluate a point of view or a discussion without adopting its premise(s). Is this merely an intellectual trick that I have taught myself? smiles>/i>,

If you go back and change the last part of this from >... to <... it should remove the italics from the rest of your post

748. OUT Campaign Launched, 'Scarlet Letter' Shirts Now Available!

Comment #59461 by BillySands on July 29, 2007 at 6:25 am

It certainly beats wearing a dead jewish blasphemer on a stick.

Bizzaro, How's those pesky toothed chickens going down with your creationist delusion? You seem to have run away without addressing the issue

749. Richard Dawkins on Hardtalk

Comment #59419 by BillySands on July 29, 2007 at 2:35 am

I feel like that about maladaptive ways of thinking and coping that I have abandoned because I finally realized they were wrong and hurting me. I find it irritating that I had to go through so much of my life feeling distress over these. But I've tried to look at it from a more positive light- that at least I finally got it and that part of the learning was in the journey.

Yes, it is only once you get rid of the negative crap of faith that you can start seeing things in a positive light. I have often thought that this aspect of faith is like a mental ilness.

750. Richard Dawkins on Hardtalk

Comment #59108 by BillySands on July 27, 2007 at 11:06 am

The failing must lie with the individual

That is sooooo true. It is also bad for yoiur esteem, you are constantly doing something wrong and god is rejecting you until you sort it out. No matter how often you ask, he never tells you what it is, and you keep fretting over it. Of course, I now know why he never answered - just wish it hadn't taken so bloody long to find out. It reminds me of a comment I made here on learning the will of my TV set through praying to it http://richarddawkins.net/article,1399,Praying-to-a-milk-jug,Why-Wont-God-Heal-Amputeescom#55420