










701. Interview with Richard Dawkins: On Christmas
Comment #102594 by Richard Morgan on December 23, 2007 at 9:20 am
Eekie :
I celebrate it because that's what my culture does.
702. Blair converts to Catholicism
Comment #102585 by Richard Morgan on December 23, 2007 at 9:10 am
decius :
Could then Blair actually turn down Bush's demands, no matter how senseless?Darn it, when didn't I think of that? Of course, Blair had to come to Bush's aid in defending the USA against the threat of being attacked by Iraq.
703. Blair converts to Catholicism
Comment #102476 by Richard Morgan on December 23, 2007 at 1:34 am
I think we need to respect personal choices - like converting to Catholicism, or helping the US invade Iraq. You know, these things are nobody else's business. Are they?
704. Interview with Richard Dawkins: On Christmas
Comment #102475 by Richard Morgan on December 23, 2007 at 1:24 am
Eekie :
The actions of modern Christians aren't that offensive compared to it's peers such as Islam.
705. Synthetic DNA on the Brink of Yielding New Life Forms
Comment #102240 by Richard Morgan on December 22, 2007 at 6:27 am
The adorable Steve Zara :
If you don't want to be associated with Creationism, then don't use its phrases.
706. Do our leaders believe in God?
Comment #102238 by Richard Morgan on December 22, 2007 at 6:14 am
But in 2007, observing North America, parts of Europe, the Middle East and the Indian sub-continent, our confidence is faltering.
707. CBC News: Sunday - Richard Dawkins
Comment #102225 by Richard Morgan on December 22, 2007 at 4:30 am
ridelo :
his patience is close to godlike. Is he only human?
708. CBC News: Sunday - Richard Dawkins
Comment #102007 by Richard Morgan on December 21, 2007 at 11:35 am
Copernic :
although the sexual lust is a good parallel.
Comment #101769 by Richard Morgan on December 21, 2007 at 12:17 am
Work-outs AND masturbation cured me of frustration! Until I got married - at which point I had to eliminate the work-outs.
I never cease to be amazed at what people will do to get on television. Does he know there are specialised private clubs in Paris where he can get whacked with chairs (or anything else) whenever he wants? Heck, for a dollar and a kiss, even I would whack him with a chair.
When do we get our "Wankers for Jesus" t-shirts?
Give a new meaning to "the laying on of hands?"
(Ha! My spell-check didn't recognise the word "wankers"! Among all the words it suggested was "bankers". I'll go for that!)
710. 2007, a bad year for God squadders
Comment #101621 by Richard Morgan on December 20, 2007 at 3:27 pm
That God would choose to come among us in such a way is so strange, so inexplicable, so unbelievable, it compels us to believe.
711. Interview with Richard Dawkins: On Christmas
Comment #101607 by Richard Morgan on December 20, 2007 at 3:04 pm
Anyway, in the interview RD said he hadn't been in a church for years, and then only for a wedding or funeral.
712. Interview with Richard Dawkins: On Christmas
Comment #101593 by Richard Morgan on December 20, 2007 at 2:41 pm
Frankus 1122 :
That's kind of a dumb scenario.
If you sang "Bess, you is my woman now" would that make you heterosexual-black-guy sympathizer?
713. Interview with Richard Dawkins: On Christmas
Comment #101505 by Richard Morgan on December 20, 2007 at 1:04 pm
Steve Zara :
Enough from me, I think.
714. Interview with Richard Dawkins: On Christmas
Comment #101502 by Richard Morgan on December 20, 2007 at 12:59 pm
annbanana :
Therefore, I will not cause myself any mental anguish by not being able to participate in mostly harmless things that I enjoy.
715. God rest you merry atheist
Comment #101264 by Richard Morgan on December 20, 2007 at 6:52 am
Tintern :
A published author really should know better.
716. Interview with Richard Dawkins: On Christmas
Comment #100891 by Richard Morgan on December 19, 2007 at 2:29 pm
bujin :
I, as an atheist, can say "God is my saviour and I worship him".
717. Interview with Richard Dawkins: On Christmas
Comment #100887 by Richard Morgan on December 19, 2007 at 2:22 pm
Northen Bright : very sincerely, thank you. What a relief you are there.
I know I owe you. Do you accept American Express, or are you going to ask the impossible, like asking me stop being snide, cantankerous, supercilious and sneering?
Well, believe it or not - if you ask me, I'll try.
718. God rest you merry atheist
Comment #100875 by Richard Morgan on December 19, 2007 at 1:56 pm
wednesdayguevara :
It's obvious a strong hand is needed to guide us plebes towards the light of ideological purity. Why not yours?
sanctimonious old stuffed-shirts who, when not extolling their own moral and intellectual superiority, told everybody what they could and could not do. Good thing we have none of those around here, what?
719. God rest you merry atheist
Comment #100782 by Richard Morgan on December 19, 2007 at 10:24 am
Northern Bright - thank you for putting your finger on the real problem here. In a way - you have said it all. So I won't try to add to it.
Irate atheist - yes, your intuition concerning my past experiences with moderates is spot on. Thank you for saying that.
720. Interview with Richard Dawkins: On Christmas
Comment #100715 by Richard Morgan on December 19, 2007 at 7:22 am
When many intelligent, reasonable people tell me I am wrong, I have this weird reaction - I tend to believe them. I go back over all my previous assertions in the light of refutations and insults received. And, unlike many who post here (and nearly ALL Fundies) I am able say, "Yes, in fact I was quite wrong on that point. Thank you for putting me right."
This time I am asking you to point out the errors in my reasoning. This is one case where I would be relieved to be proved wrong. (Yeah, in a way I would be relieved to be proved wrong about God, but I'm not holding my breath.)
Point by point, then:
The horror of 9/11 happened;
Richard Dawkins published The God Delusion;
Amongst other points he was trying to make in a very heartfelt way was this: "God does not exist so stop the slaughter in his name."
He has described the Abrahamic god of Jews, Christians and Muslims in very unflattering terms (genocidal, amongst others).
Let us, for practical purposes call him SKY DICTATOR.
SKY DICTATOR is a fiction. Believing this fiction to be a reality can cause good men to do evil.
Dawkins et al have published long catalogues of atrocities committed in the name of this fictitious SKY DICTATOR.
BUT it is harmless to sing "Christ by highest heav'n adored, Christ the everlasting SKY DICTATOR."
It is innocent fun to sing "SKY DICTATOR rest you merry, gentlemen."
It is inoffensive to sing: "And praises sing to SKY DICTATOR the King."
I can be an atheist and sing "Silent night, Holy Night, Son of SKY DICTATOR, love's pure light."
If I have failed to make my point, let us take things a step further: if you can sing them, can you say them?
If you can't say them, what transformation takes place when you put the words to music to sing them?
Seriously - if there is flaw in my reasoning, I would be happy and relieved to have it pointed out to me.
Even by AllanW (whose reasoning powers and command of the English language are largely superior to mine, even though he has a tendency to sulk, and see trolls where there is only a cantankerous old Welshman.)
But preferably by Northern Bright whose calm reasoning is always balanced and perfectly refreshing to read (though it costs me to admit it, as she knows!)
721. Interview with Richard Dawkins: On Christmas
Comment #100703 by Richard Morgan on December 19, 2007 at 6:41 am
AllanW: your failure to see is just that - a failure to see.
Your "Bye" is a sad (and surprising) cop-out.
722. Interview with Richard Dawkins: On Christmas
Comment #100680 by Richard Morgan on December 19, 2007 at 5:20 am
Diacanu :
The Fundies are chortling today...Screw 'em.
723. Interview with Richard Dawkins: On Christmas
Comment #100678 by Richard Morgan on December 19, 2007 at 5:15 am
Allan W:
'Hypocrisy at best, double-talk at worst'; have you any idea how muddled this is?Yes.I was unhappy about that when I wrote it. I realise that I am losing my grip on the English language. Thank you for pointing that out to me.
I guess your point is that it might be thought hypocritical to fail to believe in sky fairies if you then enjoy songs about them.Allan, stop being silly. Are you doing this on purpose? If people started slitting throats (on a massive scale) in the name of sky fairies I could not enjoy songs about them.
don't take it all so seriously.
Thanks for the lesson; you have nothing of value to teach.
724. God rest you merry atheist
Comment #100664 by Richard Morgan on December 19, 2007 at 4:40 am
Oh dear, once again I need to point out to so many of you guys the sloppiness, the imprecision of your reasoning.
For those of you who have forgotten, or who prefer to ignore, this debate is about singing Christian songs with Christians (moderate, Anglican/agnostic or whatever.)
This debate is NOT about listening to the Saint Matthew Passion, admiring the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel.
It IS about actively participating in the perpetuation of a Christian ritual.
Of course RD and anybody else is free to sing all the carols he wants. And in the same breath condemn religious education as child abuse.
But please, do not expect to be taken seriously if you are prepared to be seen singing "Oh come all ye faithful" and then publicly declare the dangers of moderate christianity, not to mention "faith"-heads.
OK - so there are pleasant feelings associated with singing carols (but don't forget to wear your Atheist t-shirt at the same time in case people get the wrong idea.)
But if you do not have the moral integrity to say, "I enjoy carol-singing, I don't believe in the words I'm singing, but maybe I'm sending the wrong message, so I accept to deprive myself of the joys of carol-singing ON PRINCIPLE." then clearly you expose yourself to accusations of hypocrisy at best or double-talk, at worst.
Since we live in society, sometimes we do need to "not only avoid evil, but also avoid the appearance of evil."
Without forgetting that today the spectacle of Richard Dawkins singing Christmas carols is a wonderful Christmas present for Christians the world over. The Fundies are chortling today...
I hope Richard Dawkins has the moral fibre to say publicly, "OK I got it wrong on this one. If I need to sing in the future, I'll stick to Jingle Bells until people start flying open sleighs into skyscrapers in the name of Santa. Then I will also stop singing "Jingle ALL the way".
725. Interview with Richard Dawkins: On Christmas
Comment #100661 by Richard Morgan on December 19, 2007 at 4:39 am
Oh dear, once again I need to point out to so many of you guys the sloppiness, the imprecision of your reasoning.
For those of you who have forgotten, or who prefer to ignore, this debate is about singing Christian songs with Christians (moderate, Anglican/agnostic or whatever.)
This debate is NOT about listening to the Saint Matthew Passion, admiring the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel.
It IS about actively participating in the perpetuation of a Christian ritual.
Of course RD and anybody else is free to sing all the carols he wants. And in the same breath condemn religious education as child abuse.
But please, do not expect to be taken seriously if you are prepared to be seen singing "Oh come all ye faithful" and then publicly declare the dangers of moderate christianity, not to mention "faith"-heads.
OK - so there are pleasant feelings associated with singing carols (but don't forget to wear your Atheist t-shirt at the same time in case people get the wrong idea.)
But if you do not have the moral integrity to say, "I enjoy carol-singing, I don't believe in the words I'm singing, but maybe I'm sending the wrong message, so I accept to deprive myself of the joys of carol-singing ON PRINCIPLE." then clearly you expose yourself to accusations of hypocrisy at best or double-talk, at worst.
Since we live in society, sometimes we do need to "not only avoid evil, but also avoid the appearance of evil."
Without forgetting that today the spectacle of Richard Dawkins singing Christmas carols is a wonderful Christmas present for Christians the world over. The Fundies are chortling today...
I hope Richard Dawkins has the moral fibre to say publicly, "OK I got it wrong on this one. If I need to sing in the future, I'll stick to Jingle Bells until people start flying open sleighs into skyscrapers in the name of Santa. Then I will also stop singing "Jingle ALL the way".
726. Interview with Richard Dawkins: On Christmas
Comment #100504 by Richard Morgan on December 18, 2007 at 6:41 pm
Goldy - thanks for that information. How silly of me not to have thought of that.
So, let me get this straight - if God says "Kill 'em all" then it's not genocide. In fact it's OK. In fact, God will help you get every last one of those little bastards.
And it's also OK if Richard Dawkins sings hymns/carols which were written to praise/glorify this non-genocidal God-wallah, because he doesn't believe He exists.
Like it would be OK to chant racist slogans because you're only doing it in order to have a healthy family experience? (because you're not really racist, of course!)
727. Interview with Richard Dawkins: On Christmas
Comment #100495 by Richard Morgan on December 18, 2007 at 6:07 pm
da1nextdoor2no1 - you should read what you quote : there's the word "genocidal" in there.
728. God rest you merry atheist
Comment #100488 by Richard Morgan on December 18, 2007 at 5:55 pm
CJ22 - you're right. The professor is wrong this time. But he's been right so often that his fans will prefer to overlook this untypical lapse.
729. Interview with Richard Dawkins: On Christmas
Comment #100482 by Richard Morgan on December 18, 2007 at 5:30 pm
Goldy - which "Richard" are you addressing please? Morgan or Dawkins?
730. Interview with Richard Dawkins: On Christmas
Comment #100466 by Richard Morgan on December 18, 2007 at 4:50 pm
"...Christianity is not that offensive."
"It is fiction, it's harmless..;"
You heard Richard Dawkins say it.
The same Richard Dawkins has said:
"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it, a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully."
Richard Dawkins has correctly pointed out the fact that the OT or Abrahamic God is the God of Christianity.
Not that offensive?
Please pass me my cognitive dissonance migraine pills...
731. God rest you merry atheist
Comment #100080 by Richard Morgan on December 18, 2007 at 8:19 am
I've just been e-mailed by someone in England who apparently heard Richard Dawkins on Radio 2 call Christianity a "harmless myth".
Can anyone substantiate this scandalous rumour?
Please, someone, anyone, tell me it's not true.
732. God rest you merry atheist
Comment #100066 by Richard Morgan on December 18, 2007 at 7:35 am
I've just been e-mailed by some-one in England who apparently heard Richard Dawkins on Radio 2 call Christianity a "harmless myth". Can anyone substantiate this scandalous rumour?
Please, someone, anyone, tell me it's not true.
733. God rest you merry atheist
Comment #99990 by Richard Morgan on December 18, 2007 at 3:03 am
Once again, most of you are missing the point when you compare pop songs and fiction written as fiction with religious rituals. If that doesn't give you a cognitive dissonance migraine then you need to go back to Philosophy 101.
So, let's try to define our limits using your reasoning:
Singing Christmas carols? OK.
Saying grace? OK
Attending Midnight Mass with the family? OK.
Saying prayers before going to bed? ...errr
Partaking of Holy Communion with the family? ...errr
Baptizing baby to give him a name, with god-parents and the whole caboodle because "it's the tradition in our family"?...um
Can you really justify all of that with "Well, we don't actually believe it, so it's OK?"
(Thankfully I haven't yet heard, "We slit the throats of miscreants because it's a tradition in our family.")
Somebody has asked for an Atheist Etiquette list. Good idea. (Something else to argue about endlessly.)
May I ask my RD friends where THEY would "draw the line" in perpetuating christian rituals please? (I'm not clear myself, and I freely admit it. But I do hate hypocrisy.) At what point does "harmless" become "harmful"?
Over to you.
734. Dawkins: I'm a cultural Christian
Comment #99891 by Richard Morgan on December 17, 2007 at 6:44 pm
Cartomancer - I love your last sentence.
Having read that and wiped my eyes, (I think you just out-Benwayed Dr Benway) I can forgive you all the rest! Let me give you a big hug.
Mwah!
There.
735. God rest you merry atheist
Comment #99888 by Richard Morgan on December 17, 2007 at 6:36 pm
My last word in this ridiculous debate : Thank heavens for Dr Benway.
736. God rest you merry atheist
Comment #99881 by Richard Morgan on December 17, 2007 at 6:19 pm
Ok, skepticato, that is a reasonable question. I am not "against" songs or music or art that come from ANY religious tradition. And I most certainly don't despise them, though I admit my language is often of a spiteful nature. (Thank you for pointing that out to me.) My problem is with the (apparent) hypocrisy of those who violently condemn what they call "moderate religion" but in the name of culture and tradition (and good nosh, booze and a family knees-up)actually take part in the rituals, thus perpetuating them.
I have never said "Bah, humbug" to Christmas - rituals and festivities are vital to healthy civilizations.
But as to singing "Oh come all ye faithful" with the faith-heads, well I have a problem with that.
EDIT : Poor ol' Cartomancer. Getting everything mixed up again. Fiction is written as fiction. Religious texts are written as religious truths.
You cannot compare the two.
Could you justify singing Nazi songs in the same way? ("Of course, I don't really mean it, but it's a nice tune, and culturally interesting and I am distancing myself from it.")
Aw, come on...
737. God rest you merry atheist
Comment #99870 by Richard Morgan on December 17, 2007 at 6:01 pm
You guys (RD included) really don't see the hypocrisy in all you're saying about "cultural Christianity", do you?
So - let me get it right:
Fundamental Christianity bad;
Moderate Christianity is bad (leaves the door open for the extremists);
Cultural Christianity is OK (doesn't leave any doors open for the moderates).
I rest my case.
I'll ask my local priest if he wouldn't mind putting on a special Midnight Mass for Atheists. Book your places now.
EDIT : Goldy :"As it is, all the words of the carols are of good news" And what, pray is the good news referred to in these carols? It sure ain't Ronald Macdonald...
(Oh shit, wrong thread...oops!)
738. God rest you merry atheist
Comment #99865 by Richard Morgan on December 17, 2007 at 5:51 pm
Goldy - I don't thinking people are throwing bombs at each other over the tenancy rights of female senior citizens living in over-sized Reeboks...
739. God rest you merry atheist
Comment #99859 by Richard Morgan on December 17, 2007 at 5:45 pm
Chispita : I still do it and will probably continue to enjoy it for as long as I live.
But will you teach your children to sing "Away in a manger" and "Once in Royal David's City"? If so, how will you explain the words to them?
740. Dawkins: I'm a cultural Christian
Comment #99852 by Richard Morgan on December 17, 2007 at 5:24 pm
So, Cartomancer, you need Christmas to lift you from the "monotonous depths of disappointment" (your brother's girlfriend? your drunken parents? what else?)
But what do you have to say to people who need their God lift them out of the depths of anguish and despair?
CHRISTmas is OK but CHRIST isn't?
And perhaps you should go back to your psycho-analyst to talk about your compulsive record-keeping and cataloguing.
741. God rest you merry atheist
Comment #99846 by Richard Morgan on December 17, 2007 at 5:09 pm
So the sneering critic of "faith-heads" is happy to sing "Oh come all ye faithful?"
Shouldn't it be : "Oh, come on, all ye faithful"?
Would he teach carols to children? Or is carol-singing to be restricted to consenting adults?
Cartomancer :
I hope to make a career denouncing popular misrepresentations of the Middle Ages. Does this mean I am forbidden from finding Monty Python and the Holy Grail funny?
No. It means that you've had lousy career counselling.
742. Dawkins: I'm a cultural Christian
Comment #99837 by Richard Morgan on December 17, 2007 at 4:51 pm
Let me get this right - the keenest critic of moderate religions and "faith-heads" is happy to sing:
"Oh come all ye faithful?"
"Hark, the herald angels sing?"
"Most highly flavoured gravy?"
"Gloria in excelsis Deo"
Would he do it in front of small children, or just with consenting adults?
Madonna's Starbust:
they must have felt like the earth was dying and they had to have some way of "bringing the sun back"
And it works!!! That's a relief, at least...
743. Highway to hysteria
Comment #99666 by Richard Morgan on December 17, 2007 at 9:20 am
I've seen this kind of stuff in the UK. It's kinda fun, and doesn't give you a hang-over. I've even spoken in tongues and had "words of prophecy" which turned out to be true.
I have healed by the laying on of hands, fasting and prayer (OK - more prayer than fasting). I have had dreams and visions... all in the UK.
I have seen the power of the Holy Ghost cast out demons and Income Tax Inspectors.
Oh - excuse me, my nurse is here telling me it's time to take my Abilify and then go down-stairs to continue my basket-work.
744. You can't prove that you love someone, so don't expect proof of God
Comment #87436 by Richard Morgan on November 12, 2007 at 5:52 am
Another asinine subject. Unless you're saying that God and my ex-wife are on the same level? You are? OK - I can go for that.
745. Science can answer how questions but only religion can answer why questions
Comment #86971 by Richard Morgan on November 10, 2007 at 7:14 pm
"Love is the answer - but while you're waiting for the answer, sex raises some pretty interesting questions." - Woody Allen
I'm surprised that this asinine question has even been proposed as a subject for discussion here. Unless I've inadvertently stumbled onto the page for the under-nines. Now they can give some pretty good answers. Once, in a class discussion (9/10 year-olds) a pupil asked this same question "Why does everything exist?" The answer came from the back of the class-room "What's to stop it?"
That'll do for me.
I'll get back to looking for the serious pages on this site.
746. Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams criticizes popular atheist writers
Comment #78581 by Richard Morgan on October 13, 2007 at 4:35 pm
He urged atheist writers to better understand religion.OK. As long as you don't mind my starting with Catharism and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
747. Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams criticizes popular atheist writers
Comment #78571 by Richard Morgan on October 13, 2007 at 4:17 pm
Thanks for pushing up the book sales figures, Bish.
Beckham couldn't have done better!
748. Richard Dawkins and Alister McGrath
Comment #78569 by Richard Morgan on October 13, 2007 at 4:08 pm
Lauregon-but-not-forgotten :
What a friend we have in cheeses.Brilliant.And now for:
749. Richard Dawkins and Alister McGrath
Comment #78482 by Richard Morgan on October 13, 2007 at 6:43 am
The intellectual rough'n'tumbles engaged in by DG and steve99 have become for me an amusing spectator sport. A long game that has no winners and only ends when one or the other antagonists leaves the arena.
But I am getting a little tired of reasonable arguments, philosophical parrying and thrusting, verbal pillow-fights and the like.
Veronique(and this is typical of her) has brought humanity back into this thread.
She has brought in words like "suffering" and "compassion", strangely absent from our intellectual hanky-pankying thus far.
Why should the religites have exclusive rights on the access to human feelings - things like "love", "tolerance", "sympathy", "despair", "hope", "joy","understanding" and all the rest? Religion has taken root in hearts, but atheism is attacking minds.
People don't care how much you know,You will have noticed that in the expression "the winning of hearts and minds", the heart comes before the mind. (Yes, I know where this expression was popularised, and, no, I do not approve of the context, but that is not the point here.)
Until they know how much you care.
He drew a crcle,
That shut me out.
"Heretic! Rebel!"
A thing to flout.
But love and I
Had the wit to win.
We drew a circle
That took him in.
750. Why Christians should take Richard Dawkins seriously
Comment #78274 by Richard Morgan on October 12, 2007 at 10:44 am
DG
On the other hand one cannot reason while doubting one's own basic cognitive capacity.
...God is not only a person but also the whole of reality, which of course cannot be fully captured by our limited cognitive capacity...Eureka! The ultimate proof that DG is not one individual, but a small committee doing shift-work. However, I think it would be wiser not to change authors in the middle of a post.