801. Vote on freedom of expression marks the end of Universal Human Rights

Comment #153609 by MPhil on April 1, 2008 at 4:38 pm

I want to add that I do not single out the US here - many other countries have done that and still do that, and many have governments have done worse things (although a "collateral damage" of around 600.000 is quite an acheivement) - it's just that we're talking about the US now.

802. Vote on freedom of expression marks the end of Universal Human Rights

Comment #153606 by MPhil on April 1, 2008 at 4:34 pm

I don't want to continue on the other points... merely this one:

"2. How naive does one have to be to positively think that a country whose leaders furthered its interests by committing war-crimes can be trusted to prosecute and trial them?"

You haven't answered that. If leaders in the US government commit war-crimes (say for example order the bombardmend of civillian settlements, killing thousands and maiming thousands more - or when their actions in foreign policy result - and could have been foreseen to result - in the starvation and deth of thousands) and are not put on trial in the US, what shall be done? Let the slaughter go unanswered? Let the "victim country" do whatever it seems fit (what if that country is in possession of weapons of mass destruction?)?

The US have proven to be unwilling to recognise that such things have happened, unwilling to identify them and prosecute the war-criminals.

When a serious crime is engineered and ordered from another country, the country in which the crime was committed does have the right to seek extradition of the offender. If the crime is large enough to upset the whole political system and policy of the country in which the crime was committed (such as a war crime), an international court - whose judges are not bound by either the government of the country of the offender nor the victim - is the most just solution... such as has happened with Milosevic.

Recognizing that the country whose government (and/or military) is the offender cannot be trusted with prosecution of them (as even recent history has shown) and that therefore recognizing the authority of an international court for international offences is the only just solution is not giving up sovereignty, is not having the constitution subverted - in fact it is the only way to establish a just prosecution in matters of war-crimes (or crimes such as extortion, see Milosevic).

Would you have trusted Milosevic's government to prosecute Milosevic for the crimes he ordered, for the ethnical cleansings, violations of the Genever conventions and other despicable acts?

803. Are the 'New Atheists' avoiding the 'real arguments'?

Comment #153590 by MPhil on April 1, 2008 at 3:59 pm

Just a small addition:

2) what novelty does Dennett bring to the table in revisiting this "old hat" definition

He was the first (to my knowledge) to fully develop a theory of "free will" integrated into a scientifically valid interpretation of neurscientific data, constructing free will as evolved responsiveness to reason(s) of systems with complex self-monitoring and manipulation characteristics and complex processing of external information.

... in addition to what Steve said.

And I could expand on the topic that philosophy and theology are not at all the same thing, although philosophy can reach such lows and be instrumentalized for it - just as real science can be instrumentalized for pseudoscience.

But I don't think it's necessary.

and you are in no position to declare those uses inappropriate

Especially since the compatibilistic definitions work and refer to real faculties and attributes of systems, wheres your definition is only anymore relevant historically and as a naive, common-sense construct - which is widely considered impossible and therefore useless.

804. Vote on freedom of expression marks the end of Universal Human Rights

Comment #153574 by MPhil on April 1, 2008 at 3:15 pm

1. Nationalism is horrible. It's childish, arrogant, arbitrary generalisation - it's making a virtue out of being born within some arbitarily drawn borders. It's valuing the people who belong to a certain country more than those of others - that is basis for dehumanizing anyone not being a member of this country whose life or liberty may stand in the way of its interests... and thus to disregard the rights of others. It serves to make people more willing to infringe the rights of others - this has always been the case historically, from the wars between Greece and Sparta to that of the Roman Empire against the "barbarians", the crusades (well, here it was the equivalent to nationalism in faith: "We're good and righteous because we're Chrstians - the others, the infidels are subhuman and may be killed"), the 100-year war, the 30-year war (where the religious equivalent to nationalism was again part of the equation), Hitler's expansion to the east (where the inhabitants of Eastern Europe were classified as subhuman and their life, liberty and rights of no concern to Germans)...

You have essentially stated that this is what you do here:

I care about one thing in this world - the preservation of the US Republic. Nothing else disturbs me in the least. I abhor terms like universal manhood, humankind, brother's keeper, etc. I have no obligation to take care of others

You have an obligation not to tread upon their rights, and when a US citizen or official violates them (individually or as ordering a war-crime), they have to be held accountable.

Anyway - the above quote certainly is a contestor for the most horrible, despicable sentiment by a fellow atheist I have read on this site to date. I'm sorry to have to say this, but I want to be frank.

You make me despair for the world. It's so arrogant and arbitrary to think everyone who shares ones country of orgin is worthy of protection and nobody else's fate is of any interest.

Nationalism is so extremely childish. I may delight in the cultural heritage of my country of origin (and I do), but I have contributed nothing to the good or the bad things in the history of my country of origin - and thus have no justification for "taking pride".
Nationalism is so incredibly black-and-white. Nationalism downplays the fact that no country who has ever had any influence in the world is free from blame, that most have brought untold horror over the world at one time or another - and it certainly violates something you profess to hold dear:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal" - notice it does not state "oh yea - of course US citizens are by virtue of being such the crowning acheivement of mankind, and everyone else can go to hell for all we care".

Nationalism is so incredibly arbitrary - you have no obligation to your countrymen either, none at all except for those based on the delusion that being a citizen of the US is somehow a virtue.

The country's borders are arbitrarily drawn - none of the historic acheivements are yours or those of your contemporary compatriots. Also, none of the horrible acts of violence and violation of life, liberty and well-being of others committed by US governments are your responsibility.

What is your responsibility however is to realize that you cannot take the good and leave the bad. You have to take both - wholesale: the slaughter of native americans, the expropriation, slavery, imperialism, helping to overthrow democratically elected governments in soverign countries (remember Allende?), violating the souvereignty of countries and violating the same standards which the US in one of its greatest moments established to judge the crimes of the Nazis - if you identify with your country, and think it to be the greatest invention since the wheel - you have to identify with that, too.... or, of course, you learn from history, develop some real ethics that are not confined to people born within arbitarily drawn borders and get a grip on the reality that being a US citizen is no more a virtue than being Swiss, Polish, German, Sudanesian, Congolesian or being a citizen of any other country.

2. How naive does one have to be to positively think that a country whose leaders furthered its interests by committing war-crimes can be trusted to prosecute and trial them?

3. Defending the proclaimed interests of the US and "Trade with all - War with None" (an almost admirable sentiment) are demonstrably in conflict sometimes.

4. It shows the naiveté and black-and-white thinking to think of recognizing an international court as "another country forcing their laws upon us"... It's (I'm repeating myself) recognizing and accepting that one is subject to the same standards according to which one judges others, and the same standards other countries reasonably subject themselves to. This is not imperialism or enforcement - noone has the right to inforce the recognition of international law upon a country (though that is one of the thingst the US did to others - by invasion), what is asked is that the US freely recognize these standards and the power of the international court.

I'm sorry for the tone of this comment - but I do react strongly to nationalism - any nationalism. And with good reason, too.

805. Faith healing church parents charged over toddler's death

Comment #153524 by MPhil on April 1, 2008 at 2:29 pm

Since the passage of the law in 1999

...aaannnd, that means that before 1999, stating (truthfully) that the you committed homicide/manslaughter/child abuse because of religious beliefs would get you a "Oh alright then. There's a good, god-fearing citizen. You may walk free." ?

806. Vote on freedom of expression marks the end of Universal Human Rights

Comment #153153 by MPhil on April 1, 2008 at 6:02 am

most important document in the history of mankind

Magna Carta, anyone? The writings of the European Enlightenment, anyone? These were the inspirations and historic precursors of the US constitution.


Subvert the consitution? The constitution doesn't cover international law - what you write there can be interpreted as equivalent to "the US uber alles". I hope I'm wrong.

Honestly, you talk of "subversion" of the constitution when what this is about is persecution of war-criminals? About laws and regulations that hold between nations? Or are you really such a nationalist that you think international laws do not apply to the US? That there should be no international law becasue the US "can do no wrong"?

I think the US constitution is great, really! But it is extremely arrogant to think that the US should not be bound by international law, allowing for persecution of war criminals.

Either there are standards to which every country, and every countries leaders ought to be held - then Hussein, Khomenei, Milosevic, Hitler would be guilty - but also Kissinger and Bush... or you think that the national constitution should be the highest level and that there shouldn't be international laws and regulations - in which case the Nuremberg trials should never have taken place, nor the trial of Milosevic - and there would be no basis for condemning the invasions by Iraq against other sovereign nations under Hussein and many many other things.

Recognizing that international regulations (such as the Genever convention, the Declaration of Human Rights etc) are binding for nations and that you cannot trust a country who violates them to persecute its own offenders - and that thus an international court needs to be established and recognized. - This is not subversion of the constitution. This is recognizing that the US can do wrong as well and should not be exempt from having perpetrators of war-crimes persecuted.

I hope I am misinterpreting you - but it does sound an aweful lot like "the US uber alles".

807. Vote on freedom of expression marks the end of Universal Human Rights

Comment #153140 by MPhil on April 1, 2008 at 5:36 am

Fighting Falcon,

that first comment is beside the point. This is about keeping to UN resolutions and politicians actively discouraging compliance with international law and refusal to play by the rules of the UN which they helped to establish. That is called hypocrisy and arrogance.

The seconds comment reeks of nationalism. Dear me, it would be madness for an american citizen to be tried for war-crimes! After all, Kissinger is AMERICAN - the orchid of the human race! Having a US citizen tried for crimes he committed as an official against other countries and their populations - according to the rules of the UN declaration of human rights and general Charta. Utter madness - oh the injustice!
EDIT: In that case, I guess the Nuremberg Trials should never have taken place either, as these people weren't tried by their own laws (according to which their conduct would have been lawful). Also, it was at these Nuremberg Trials that the US upheld some of the standards which later became international law, and according to which, Kissinger would be guilty as well. Hypocrisy again.
Honestly, what you wrote sounds very much like what Milosevic said.

808. Vote on freedom of expression marks the end of Universal Human Rights

Comment #153125 by MPhil on April 1, 2008 at 5:05 am

It's still performing well in some areas, such as UNESCO, the WFP and UNICEF... it's not doing as much as it SHOULD be able to, but still there is a lot of good being done here.

809. Vote on freedom of expression marks the end of Universal Human Rights

Comment #153116 by MPhil on April 1, 2008 at 4:23 am

So you don't support the World Heath Organisation or UNICEF, or the International Court of Justice, or the UN Peace-Keeping forces?

There have been major failures, but I don't think it is reasonable to describe those activities as a "joke".

I second that - absolutely. While the US and China tend to ignore and belittle the UN - thus 'creating the reality' they supposedly describe - the UN has been a force for good in the past. UNICEF, the International Court of Justice, the Blue-Helmets and especially (IMO) UNESCO have contributed positively.

I'm also with Russell Blackford who said that we do need supernational organisations. I think they should have an entrenched constitution (unchangeable, not even by 3/4 or totally unanimous vote) based on the orginal Charta of Human Rights and a revised organisational structure (rethinking the power and constitution of the granting of veto-powers and permanent seats in the security council) and with more power for binding statements and powers. For example, the US shouldn't be able to not recognise the Den Haag court (Kissinger should be brought to trial, among others).

Anyway - UNICEF, Den Haag, UNESCO, UNDP (United Nations Development Programme - overseeing elections etc) and the WFP (World Food Programme) alone make the UN something better than a mere "joke".

Some links:

http://www.undp.org/about/

http://www.unicef.org/whatwedo/index.html

http://portal.unesco.org/en/ev.php-URL_ID=3328&URL_DO=DO_TOPIC&URL_SECTION=201.html

http://www.wfp.org/operations/introduction/index.asp?section=5&sub_section=1

http://www.icj-cij.org/court/index.php?p1=1&p2=6

810. Anti-Quran Film Fitna Pulled From Web Due to 'Threats'

Comment #152692 by MPhil on March 31, 2008 at 11:03 am

Of course free speach does have it limits - when it is conflicting with other rights and duties.

For example, shouting your political opinions with a megaphone towards your neighbour's house is not protected by free speach, nor is telling people you will kill them, and neither is telling people to kill other people. Why should it be protected to do this on a grand scale... in this respect, I find it absolutely correct that in the German law there is an article on "Volksverhetzung":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volksverhetzung

Now I do find restrictions of basic freedoms as worrying as the next guy - but when a practice or a doctrine does indeed cause severe harm, the rights have to be weighed against one another, and it may be the case that a certain practice has to be forbidden - just like you can't lawfully order people to murder others by hiring them to do it or trying to convince them to do it.

Historically, the Bible and the Koran have incited unimaginable violence - but I'm not for banning them... banning certain religious practices or political practices (of neo-nazis for example, like trying to get at kids at school and "win them over"- which is what they do in Eastern Germany for example)on the other hand... all for it.

811. Anti-Quran Film Fitna Pulled From Web Due to 'Threats'

Comment #152667 by MPhil on March 31, 2008 at 10:10 am

I agree with ThoughtsonCommonToad... and would like to add a little something:

"There's no justification for taking pride in something one has not acheived oneself"

Pride without own acheivement is arrogance.

812. Beware the Believers

Comment #152157 by MPhil on March 30, 2008 at 9:25 am

What would that even mean?

Indeed, though someone might construct it as a reference to
a) being a cultural Christian (singing carols etc)
or (maliciously)
b) the old accusatio of atheists being dependent on religious morality and culture.

813. Beware the Believers

Comment #152152 by MPhil on March 30, 2008 at 9:16 am

What fish-sign? The one on Prof. Dr. Dawkins' cap?
At least that one has feet, and is thus a classic atheistic evolution-parody of the religious ICHTHYS sign.

814. Beware the Believers

Comment #152149 by MPhil on March 30, 2008 at 9:08 am

Of course, to someone like me, who studies philosophy, the whole nomenclature of "Ph.D." or "D.Phil." is a little strange - being inferior to a D.Sc. or Sc.D. and containing the term "Philosophy" in an academic setting to refer to something other than philosophy.

Of course I know there's a historical explanation - but it still seems strange somehow to me.

:)

815. Blasphemy

Comment #152145 by MPhil on March 30, 2008 at 9:04 am

Being an addiction, any sort of extremism does not become less extreme if ignored, tolerated, accepted, understood, whatever ...

As someone who has suffered through a psychological addiction - and has had quite some experience with addicts, I feel I cannot let that stand.

Now I'm not saying nothing should be done about addiction, but in my case, and in many cases I knew and know understanding and a special form of tolerance is essential to overcoming it. In many cases, complete rejection with no dialogue or even attempt to understand will only trigger a blocking reaction, which doesn't help at all.

The "tolerance" I was speaking of is that of realizing that addiction is not something that can be just turned off. There may be only very few, complicated routes to remission and treatment, and one has no choice but to tolerate the effects of the addiction along the way if one does want to treat the addiction.

I am not sure whether the "addiction"-analogy hold in all respects, but in some essential ones it might, and there - the above aspects remain true.

816. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #152114 by MPhil on March 30, 2008 at 6:40 am

... I forgot - our influence is basically growing by the year, or at least the decade. Compare the environmental pressure of, say, people living in Ireland in the mid 19th century with people living there now. Compare the situation of medical treatments possible or potential today and a decade ago... it's quite astounding, and all through reason and communication.

817. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #152109 by MPhil on March 30, 2008 at 6:31 am

Well, we do differ from other animals in a way that our faculties of planning, designing technology and cultural artifacts does lift a very large portion of the selection pressure from us that our immediate ancestors had. Through no change in nature or genome, at least people in first-world countries have overcome some very serious elements of selections pressure - accessibility of food, of shelter, certain otherwise fatal diseases etc.

And now genetic technology is on the march... we do shape our own evolution or lack thereof to a very large degree.

818. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #151001 by MPhil on March 28, 2008 at 1:34 am

Of course we can't prove that the Christian God does not exist

Of course we can prove that the Christian God does not and could not exist.... there, fixed that for you :)

Some supposed attributes of the Christian God are inherently or mutually contradictory... therefore nothing that supposedly has these attributes could exist.

The Christian God is also an interventionist metaphysical God - which would violate the conservation of energy and momentum, and in extension the 1st law of thermodynamics. For all we know these hold... therefore the Christian God does not exist.

819. Expelled Overview

Comment #150976 by MPhil on March 27, 2008 at 9:17 pm

Good post, Jon. And most definitely true. Sadly it wasn't only Dresden... think of the expulsion of everone with German heritage who lived in eastern prussia, pomerania and silesia after the war, people whose families had lived their partly for hundreds of years - with hundreds of thousands killed in the process.

Also, not only Dresden was unneccesary - so many civilian targets, so many cities were destroyed that there is literally almost no single city in Germany that wasn't bombed.

Don't get me wrong - I abhorr the Nazi crimes and the mindset that allowed for this to happen. But you're right - that doesn't mean that serious war crimes weren't committed by those fighting the Nazis.

820. Are the 'New Atheists' avoiding the 'real arguments'?

Comment #150617 by MPhil on March 27, 2008 at 7:22 am

I find it quite insulting to put philosophy on one level with theology... truths can be learned in philosophy - do not underestimate that. Also, do not assume that philosophers are not scientists. Read a few papers by Paul Churchland, "Consciousness Explained" by Dennett, or something by Sneed, Suppes or Stegmüller - and then tell me that that's not science, that there are no truths uncovered here.

What science does -among other things- is construct working interpretation-models for the available data. That is also what good philosophy does.

The free will issue is one of definition. If and only if you have a working definition, you can investigate scientifically whethere if something actual corresponds to it. And with compatibilist free will, it does. So if you want to claim that the burden proof is on "us" - there is proof.

But you don't seem to accept that it is a valid definition, which is dogmatic on your part. It is I fear immature to proclaim "you have failed to prove that x exists" when you dogmatically do not accept the working defenition that is known to refering to something real.

Anyway - I am really somewhat offended by your comments on philsophy.

821. Are the 'New Atheists' avoiding the 'real arguments'?

Comment #149621 by MPhil on March 26, 2008 at 2:20 am

Same here. And now I have to relax my mind a little :)

822. Are the 'New Atheists' avoiding the 'real arguments'?

Comment #149614 by MPhil on March 26, 2008 at 2:15 am

Can we now let white smoke rise up through the chimney?
(sorry for using a religious analogy :)

823. Are the 'New Atheists' avoiding the 'real arguments'?

Comment #149612 by MPhil on March 26, 2008 at 2:11 am

That is a good compromise!

Indeed!

A deterministic process "unfolds", so there is something there which makes it possible to generate deterministically... that which makes it possible to extract (generate a description of) the state at any time of the system by having a complete description of the system in one state (for example at time t₀) and the "inference" rules... and that would be what I would call the information that is already there...

Yes, I think that is quite concise. And I don't think it's useless to identify that property that does this (by whatever name, I use 'information' - but I'm open for any other name)

EDIT: Comment substantially edited.

824. Are the 'New Atheists' avoiding the 'real arguments'?

Comment #149609 by MPhil on March 26, 2008 at 2:05 am

Your "generating it deterministically" is actually very helpful to me. That would be what I would call "unpacking" of information that is already there (by virtue of the generation being deterministic)

I guess in this sense, I am using "information" entirely independent of epistemology.

825. Are the 'New Atheists' avoiding the 'real arguments'?

Comment #149608 by MPhil on March 26, 2008 at 2:01 am

I still think math is a construct - but one which explores that actual, factual, uniform structure of constructs themselves - which itself is something universal. It is thus "there for all to discover" while still being a construct, an abstraction.

At least that's how see it.

EDIT: As for your last post (#149606), I entirely agree.

Information is surely supposed to provide a short-hand to understanding. It should allow prediction.

Being aware of that specific part of the information you have and being able to use it allows for prediction. The fact that there are a few cases (a small class of types of cases) where it is inaccessible before unpacking does not invalidate my point - "doing the math" was meant as refering to the same thing as "constructing the proof" in the case of the socrates example, where beforehand you already have "Socrates is human", "All humans are mortal" and "(If P then Q)(Now P)(Therefore Q) is an admissible operation".

That would be equivalent to knowing "2", "2", "4" having a definition of "=", of "PLUS " and knowing that it is admissible, - AND considering ONLY the this.
That from my use of information also already contains the information that 2PLUS2=4

But as I said, my point was reducibility (meaning that there is nothing more to a specific tornado than the specific strucure and behaviour of the system on the lower level). And I really do think the halting problem and cellular automaton examples do detract from that specific point.

826. Are the 'New Atheists' avoiding the 'real arguments'?

Comment #149604 by MPhil on March 26, 2008 at 1:47 am

The insight I have gained is that reducibility as being fully 'implemented' (I'm not sure if that word is correct - with all its connotations) does not mean predictability in all cases. A valued one... I might have to write a paper for philosophy of science about that.

827. Are the 'New Atheists' avoiding the 'real arguments'?

Comment #149603 by MPhil on March 26, 2008 at 1:44 am

Anyway - my main point remains. The lower level (and this has nothing to do with "doing the math"/"constructing" the proof", ie "unpacking" or accesibility of information in general) has the higher level phenomena implemented in them - ie they are reducible - such as that the higher level object "tornado" is reducible to the specific nature, structure and behaviour of the lower level particles.

828. Are the 'New Atheists' avoiding the 'real arguments'?

Comment #149598 by MPhil on March 26, 2008 at 1:38 am

Damn, I just can't let it be.

For one thing - I abhorr platonism. It is the "essence of redness" thing... universals again. Abstract entities as "really existing entirely objectively, completely independent from the construct and abstraction".. nah, that just doens't work for me. As you know, I'm a materialist. But I get your point and I don't think it necessitates platonism.

Anyway, I think the analogy is incorrect:

I would suggest it (may) make no more sense to say that the information the behaviour of the automata or programs is present in the starting states than to say that the information you will find when you explore a fixed landscape is somehow present in your starting point and direction. What information you find is determined by those, and is entirely reproducible, but it isn't really useful to say that the starting point and direction contain what you will find.

Not starting point and direction. That would not be analoguous to the Socrates example I used to give the definition of how I use "information", as from information about starting point and direction alone, you cannot "unpack" the information of what you will find.

My point was made in the analogy, that the information "Socrates is mortal" is contained in what I have listed above.
These elements by themselves already contain the information that is contained in "doing the math", in "constructing the proof", ie in

" 'P1:All humans are mortal; P2:Socrates is a human; C:Socrates is mortal' is sound."

829. Are the 'New Atheists' avoiding the 'real arguments'?

Comment #149592 by MPhil on March 26, 2008 at 1:29 am

Bullshit. It is you two who mark precisely what this site is about.

Having off-topic discussions? :)

Nah, I get what you mean - thanks. But it's not just Steve and myself... I feel the same way about so many people and contributions on here.

Mabye not all is right with the world - but at least something is still right in all the corners where the valued contributers on this site reside :)

830. Are the 'New Atheists' avoiding the 'real arguments'?

Comment #149588 by MPhil on March 26, 2008 at 1:17 am

Aaaargh! 2-dimensional space!!!
Aaargh!

With just a touch of sarcasm, I wonder if he would make sure that they be forced to stay there until they've worked it all out?

Now we've done it, Steve... we've become a menace to the RD-society :P

831. Are the 'New Atheists' avoiding the 'real arguments'?

Comment #149587 by MPhil on March 26, 2008 at 1:16 am

So...

With some systems, the only way to acquire the information is to sit back and wait.

... granted and integrated :)

832. Are the 'New Atheists' avoiding the 'real arguments'?

Comment #149585 by MPhil on March 26, 2008 at 1:07 am

This may, in some sense, be correct, but I am not sure it is at all useful. It is hard to think of a sense in which information is "there" if it is not accessible, and can't be used to describe the system in a simpler way.

EDIT: This is sort of related to the question of Turing Machines. The termination or otherwise of a program is undecidable, even though entirely deterministic.

Yes, this has crossed my mind as well. And especially the edit has provided me with hours and hours of interesting thoughts about information, causation and such.

I think that the way in which I use information to describe this is useful for the debates about "levels" and "being entirely implemented in the lower level".

And I happen to think that the first part of your comment is a useful insight that "follows" from my view - "The informational content is there by virtue of being deterministic - but inextractable"
We need other notions as well (whatever name we have for them or for mine) - I completely agree.


Well - I am satisfied. I suggest we leave it at that - you have answered my questions to my complete satisfaction and I think I have gained some insight.

It's been a pleasure - as always.

EDIT:

I still think I was correct when talking about tornadoes. Especially the point about the higher-level information (my usage) being the structure/systematicity/order of the system or behaviour of its parts in the lower level, meaning there is nothing added. The highly interesting Turing-example and cellular automaton-example can be integrated into my position by adapting the latter to include the provision that for specific deterministic processes, the information cannot be accessed in advance.

833. Are the 'New Atheists' avoiding the 'real arguments'?

Comment #149583 by MPhil on March 26, 2008 at 12:58 am

But some systems are too complex to be able to replicate in practise

[my emphasis]

No argument from me here. And as for the entire universe - predicting to the last detail the entirety of that is of course even a logical impossiblity, since one would have to predict oneself - which would have to including the effects of "doing the predicting", which in turn would have to take account of the effects of doing the predicting - infinite regress.

The information about any point at a given moment in time

Well, I wasn't taking time into account - and meant to talk about a system in which only discrete states are allowed - ie in my example 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 on every axis - nothing in between. So the Mandelbrot-set would be impossible within that system.

Consider the Mandelbrot set. Is the complexity contained within present. In the simple recipe that produces it? Could you look at the recipe and say "I know what that will produce - and it will get printed on a lot of T-shirts!"?

I think addition temporal progression distracts from what I talking about - or the point I was trying to make.

Let me put it this way. If I have a completely deterministic system, a complete description of the system at time t₁ (for a physical system - including the impulse of all parts), and know all the "laws" that completely determine how the system progresses from one state to another, I would be able to extract from this the exact state of the system at any time t_i. Since the system is completely deterministic, all states before and after t₀ follow necessary from the complete description at that time and the "inference rules". Thus I already have all the information - I only need to "unpack" it by doing the calculations.

That -again- describes how I use the term "information".

834. Are the 'New Atheists' avoiding the 'real arguments'?

Comment #149580 by MPhil on March 26, 2008 at 12:35 am

On second thought, maybe it shouldn't be "the axioms and the complete list of allowed operations", but "the axioms, the complete list of allowed operations, and the complete list of allowed sentences or a - ie formally admissible sentences)
But if all sentences that can be called mathematical "allowed sentences" can be gotten solely from the axioms and inference rules, that would be redundant.

My point: If you need no additional information or "change of states" of the components (in which case the nature of the change or its sufficient causes and the "laws of causality" for the change would have to be known) at all to produce something - then the information is already there. - As with the socrates example. That would describe a property of what I mean by information.

835. Are the 'New Atheists' avoiding the 'real arguments'?

Comment #149577 by MPhil on March 26, 2008 at 12:25 am

In principle, as the behaviour of the system is the simplest way to describe the behaviour of the system.

I'm afraid that doesn't answer the question that puzzles me... I'm not saying I don't believe you. But it seems to me to be trivially, logically true that only randomness is genuinely unpredictable.
If it isn't at all random, it is completely causally determined - so if you have the causes and the "laws of causality", it is predictable.

Maybe there's something I really don't get here...
I must say I'm puzzled.

Is the information for all mathematical proofs present in the axioms?

If you had said "the axioms and the complete list of allowed operations" I would be tempted to say yes. Just as the information "Socrates is mortal" is contained in the combined information of:

-"All humans are mortal"
-"Socrates is a human"
and
- If P, then Q.
P.
Therefore, Q
(Modus ponendo ponens as allowed operation)

Think of a 2-dimensional space of a cartesian coordinate system. Let's say it's finite and only positive, and we have a space that extends from 0-10 on the x-axis and 0-10 on the y-axis.
The information about any location of any point or collection of points in that system is already there in the description of the system - since it describes all possibilities for the way things can be in that system.

836. Are the 'New Atheists' avoiding the 'real arguments'?

Comment #149572 by MPhil on March 26, 2008 at 12:09 am

again Steve :)

but there is no way to predict that higher level behaviour other than to set the system going and wait.

In principle, independend of the constraints of any logically possible methods of observation? Other than genuine randomness, I don't see what could possible make something genuininely unpredictable in principle.? In practice - sure. But in principle?

If the behaviour is entirely determined by interactions on the lower level, then all the information is there, at least this is a logical truth from my usage of the terms "information" and "determined".

(Maybe it's semantics again)

837. Are the 'New Atheists' avoiding the 'real arguments'?

Comment #149569 by MPhil on March 26, 2008 at 12:04 am

Steve,
this was about free will? ;P

you can see retrospectively that it was entirely determined by interactions at the lower level

That was my point. But exactly this statement means that the information is there on the lower level.

So maybe I should rephrase the statemt to say that whether or not we can predict it - the information is there, as it is if the higher level behaviour is completely determined by interactions on the lower level?

838. Are the 'New Atheists' avoiding the 'real arguments'?

Comment #149568 by MPhil on March 26, 2008 at 12:01 am

Addendum:

I think I just had a little epiphany.
What you say cam be - I think - interpreted as being true if it is something like this:

Having a theory of how quarks or atoms behave generally - what their attributes are, how they can interact - that does not give us a description of what genes do. Of course not. The information that is in the the theories of genetics is not contained in the information of the theories of particle physics, quantum physics or indeed any physics.

That is true - trivially. But also absolutely consistent with what I said - the information about the behaviour of genes is still present in the level of the system that physics investigate. You don't get the information of the structure of specific interactions of particles if you only have a theory about how particles can behave. But if that theory is correct and complete and used to get a complete account of what the particles in that specific system actually do - you can pick out the higher level information.

839. Are the 'New Atheists' avoiding the 'real arguments'?

Comment #149563 by MPhil on March 25, 2008 at 11:41 pm

I disagree with that, obviously - and especially the edit. But I do get your point.

This is the issue of reduction again.

Would you say genes are not objective and only a description at the level of quarks is "objective"?

The whole is more than the sum total of its parts

Indeed, the whole is the ordered structure of its parts. Genes are real - as functional elements, but they do reduce to atoms and thus quarks behaving in a certain way
The "encapsulation" of oxygen in hemoglobin can be described as movements of atoms. The decoding of mRNA into proteins can be also be described as specific processes of atomic and molecular behaviour - since that is what it is. The important part here is of course that it isn't just some behaviour of quarks, atoms, molecules - it is a specific kind of behaviour.

If we had only looked at the atomic level, we would have noticed that there is a systematicity, a uniformity in the grouping and behaviour of the atoms. And if we had the power to observed all the relevant consequent behaviour of atoms- we would have picked up the higher level phenomena, because they present in the lower level as systematic and uniform behaviour that we can make out.

Because the programmer does realize there is a higher level of description, and you, the person who read the output, do realize they are not just random splashes of dots!

I don't think that's the point. The point is that they aren't random. And we do nothing else than the program, but we're programmed by evolution and interaction with the environment to call a specific order, a specific systematicity of paint-molecules on a canvas (or rather a specific order and quality of visual information) a pointilist or cubist painting, or a "good" or "bad " painting.

There is something in the painting that elicits this behaviour in us, and there is something in us which determines our response. But that doesn't mean that the painting is "intrinsically good", unless you redefine that to mean just that its attributes (which does reduce to - i.e. is the order and structure of the paint-molecules) are so that they elicit these responses in people dispositioned to respond that way.

In this way - I do not deny that the higher levels make sense. But there is a difference between "The level of the quark vs the level of the gene" and "the level of the paint-molecules vs the level of the 'artistic quality' of the painting", since the latter part of the latter example is something which can only be intersubjective (because it is determined by how the mind ie the function of the brain is dispositioned/conditioned to react to inputs)- while the level of the gene is objective meaning that it is entirely independent of what people think and feel about it. A gene would still behave how it does dependant on the context in which it is implemented, no matter if threehundred years ago it was impossible that anybodys mind had a representation of it which can be accurate or not to different degrees.

That is what I meant by distinguishing objective, subjective and intersubjective.

Returning to a point made above - you cannot lose information when you move one or more levels down provided you have sufficient information about that level - this is also true ex hypothesi because after all the higher levels are completely 'implemented' in the lower levels. The "additional" information is only additional if and because the observation and knowledge of the lower level is not complete enough - ie if and because we haven't picked up the systematicity/uniformity/order/structure in the lower level that corresponds to the objects of the higher level.

A specific tornado is not just any "can of hot gas", it is a specific structure and order of molecular movement of specific particles at specific coordinates. And if we had just a print (a veeeerrrry long print) of the movement of all particles during a tornado and also the data of how the system usually looks (without the tornado) and what these particles "do" when they aren't part of the tornado - then we would theoretically be able to pick out not only that there was something different, but that there was some specific event with such and such structure - ie the tornado.

Thus the higher levels are valid, but they have no information that cannot possibly be gotten from the lower level, because they are completely 'implemented' there.

I think you may be confusing the practical impossibility (or extremely high but finite improbability) of picking the higher level information out because we don't have enough and detailed enough information about the entirety of the lower level to pick out the systematicity/structure/uniformity/order that corresponds to the higher-level phenomena (or even 'objects' such as tornados) with a genuine difference of information content.

As for the edit - I don't see that I'm avoiding or trying to explain away any problem? Especially from your point of view, -to use your analogy- that would be like accusing the particle physicists of avoiding the problem of mRNA transcription.
From my point of view - the higher level phenoma, correctly understood - are part of what the theory explains.

Once we recognize that there is no "intrinsic moral goodness" of an act - independent of every judgement thereof past present or future, there is no problem, because moral quality of an act consists entirely of how people judge it and what elements of the act elicit these judgements in what context. And everything that is ascribed to the supposed "intrinsic moral goodness" of an act, every information that is in this point of view can be dervied from the perspective I advocat - only that the information is not 'centered' on the supposed 'object' of a moral value or the supposedly existing objective, intrinsic moral quality of the act is distributed to the agents who judge the act, and explained as the judgement that agents make. There is no information lost.

840. Are the 'New Atheists' avoiding the 'real arguments'?

Comment #149552 by MPhil on March 25, 2008 at 10:54 pm

... and now you'll have to excuse me, I need something to eat and a round of Battlefield 2142 to provide my mind with some R&R :)

841. Are the 'New Atheists' avoiding the 'real arguments'?

Comment #149551 by MPhil on March 25, 2008 at 10:49 pm

I corrected myself later, stating "uncaused, spontaneous causation of a macroscopic system within spacetim".

The problem about non-deterministic elements is that they ex hypothesi - per definition - cannot be forseen. Take radioactive decay - as far as I understand a genuinely random event. We cannot state that a decay-process and the emission of alpha, beta or gamma-radiation will occur at a precisely specifiable time, although we can give a statistical half-life for a mass of radioactive particles.

Now if we would have the need a specifically timed event, we cannot use radioactive decay as the trigger - because we don't and cannot know when it will happen. In this sense, the exact characteristics (including time of occurance) of a genuinely indeterministic processes cannot be part of a larger functional process.

The point I am trying to make is that for everything you say free will is necessary - the will must be causally connected to reasons and grounds.
Spontaneous, uncaused causation would be something like me totally uncharacteristically stripping bare on the street and praising god - and then answering the question "why did you do it" truthfully with "No reason. There were no causes - it was the exercise of spontaneous, uncaused free will".

You would think me mad (rightfully).
I don't have any big problem with a system being not completely determinstic. But every function - every planning, every exercise of free will that serves a purpous has to be deterministic in the important aspects - namely in being causally connected to reasons and grounds. Otherwise no planning, no aboutness and thus no intentionality, and no meaning.

Here is an idea you may find interesting.[...]

Very interesting indeed - thank you for that information, which I am sadly not equipped to judge for veracity, but I'll take your word for it - and it seems that it is coherent with what I know of the subject.

Also, it is coherent with my position as stated above and in my previous comments. The systemticity, the uniformity that is required for intenionality, meaning, reason and free will as responsiveness to reason(s) may well in the end be so because of the nature of the quantum level. What matters is that there are systematicity, uniformity and underlying causal connections.

842. Are the 'New Atheists' avoiding the 'real arguments'?

Comment #149547 by MPhil on March 25, 2008 at 10:19 pm

The picture only "exists" at a higher level of description,

I don't think my theories cannot handle this data. First, as you correctly state (at least implicitly in what I quoted), whatever pattern or phenomenon only appears at higher levels is thus interest relative - like value-judgements of art or meaning. Which means it is not intrinsic, not objective - there is no "objective matter of fact" about it. In the end it has to be implemented at the lowest level - in the end a painting must consist of molecules with specific attributes in specific order. This is trivially true.

But interestingly - it wouldn't be that hard to program software that can identify a pointilist painting as a pointilist painting by analyzing a digital picture of it - or a cubist painting etc.
So once we identify attributes as attributes of objects, they can be picked out at the object-level.

You cannot derive an appreciation of the quality - since that is interest relative, not objective.

Because of that, "my" theory need not be concerned with how "good" the painting "is", because "good" in this case doesn't refer to functional adequacy, but to subjective or intersubjective judgement. But in the end - there is (even if we never find it) a neurological explanation of why we make certain judgements about a painting and what is the corresponding neural activity of uttering or thinking that judgement. So in that sense, it can handle that data.

The rest is interest-relative, and not - again as you correctly state - a matter of "truth".

843. Are the 'New Atheists' avoiding the 'real arguments'?

Comment #149545 by MPhil on March 25, 2008 at 10:11 pm

Bonzai,

it seems we're talking at cross purposes.
I don't think subjective experience is a delusion - I think we cannot infer from that anything beyond "we have THIS", we cannot describe what this is, only its content.
Many people, especially some qualophiles and phenomenologists have inferred that the experiences are not identical to the activity of the brain, not identical to firing patterns of neurons in context to the state of the whole neural net. They argued that from the fact of experience we can infer dualism.

This is what I meant by underdetermined and delusional.

I do deny some concepts of folk-psychology. Some will have to be abandoned when one wants to be coherent with the advancing neurosciences - most will have to be extremely modified.

Just recently, I had a theist argue that because when I see a person, there is nothing shaped like a person in my brain - the perception and the thought cannot be physical, cannot be a brain-process. Aside from the fact that it is factually incorrect that there is no direct, observable representation of the geometrical shape of what you see in your brain (as I have mentioned two comments ago), it is irrelevant. The inference is unwarranted.

That is all I meant.

We are however data-processing machines. But you're right we do not "only work on logic". But even our emotions, our emotional responses, our reminiscences, our moods are caused by input, partly from outside, partly from within one's own system (self-monitoring). And they are "mechanical" in the sense that they are caused and work though deterministic system of hormone excretion, neural firing patterns.
Thus, what I mean by "we are information processing machines" is that it all comes down to firing patterns of neurons, to neural activity - and what they do is signal-processing.
But yes, some of it is the logical thinking we do, some of it is our feelings, our moods and other non-rational aspects of ourselves.

But I assume you weren't contradicting that, so - see what I mean by talking cross-purposes? :)

844. Are the 'New Atheists' avoiding the 'real arguments'?

Comment #149538 by MPhil on March 25, 2008 at 9:49 pm

if there is no free will, there will be no agency, no sense of talking about intension, hence no meanings because meanings is only meaningful to intentional agents that can ascribe it and grasp it.

If you mean classical "uncaused, spontaneous causation" free will - I don't agree... but I have stated so in another post ... I think.

I have also stated that I think there is no inherent, intrinsic "meaning". Btw, I suppose you meant "intention" or "intentionality", not "intension"?
That can be gotten in a deterministic universe as well - as representation and thus aboutness of states, and as actions and events dependent on representation, and thus themselves about what is being represented. Representation needs a certain uniformity, but no "inherent" "meaning", whatever that is supposed to be. A lock has a representation of the functional aspects of a key, or things that imitate keys. The pattern of neural activity in your visual cortex is representative of what you see (even geometrically - the pattern of neural activity on the back of your brain where optical input is processed has a geometrical shape that is similar to that of what you see).

Thus I think there is no "intrinsic" meaning, because it is interest-relative, there is no "objective fact of the matter" about it.

Also, I think you've got it somehow backwards. I think intentionality is more basic than "meaning", since the latter depends on the former. But maybe I have misread you and you did state this.

So, intentionality is aboutness is representation is dependent on causal link between what is being represented and the system that represents, and thus only possible in a largely deterministic universe.

Anyway - my point: incompatibilistic "uncaused spontaneous causation"-free will is not required for intentionality, in fact it would make it impossible, since a system of whose states none is caused by the "outside world" cannot have representations, since they have to have a causal connection to what is being represented.

The meaning of "agency" obviously depends on the concept of free will and of "origination". If I am to read "free will" and "agency" in the quote at the beginning of this comment in a way that corresponds in the relevant parts to what I have layed out as compatibilistic free will, origination and agency - then I agree with that quote.

845. Are the 'New Atheists' avoiding the 'real arguments'?

Comment #149536 by MPhil on March 25, 2008 at 9:39 pm

...sorry I'm a bit behind, guys... writing this took some time :)


Bonzai,

the phenomenological data is compelling and even more

I'd say that depends what you mean by it. Our phenomenological experience is evident - but evidence for nothing beyond that. The (pre)theoretical notions, "explanations" and inferences many many people draw from this are at best extremely underdetermined by the fact that we have phenomenological experience, at worst they are deluded.

jac,


I'm positive Dennett is aware that pathological repeatings of futile behaviour occurr - but that is no objection to his point, for the fact there is endless repitition of futile or damaging behaviour makes that very behaviour pathological. And we're not talking about pathology.
Also, I'm sure Dennett is very ware that there are degrees of determination.

ad "egocentrical bias":
I don't think so. Dennett postulates no absolute. It's a matter of degrees of freedom, aka non-sphexishness. Compared to the wasp, we have hugely more freedom, compared to a super-intelligent being whose brain comes with hugely more complicated meta level monitoring and behaviour-modification functions, we might look like sphex do to us, but the distance between sphex and us would remain.

As evident from "we have ADMITTED that we REALLY have no free will" - you still argue from a classical understanding of "free will" - and you will get no argument from me that this is impossible, nor from Dennett. Once you have understood (or 'admitted' or have been convinced or are open to that) that freedom can coherently be seen as responsiveness to reason and reasons, and thus control (the unique system that is you has a lot of control over things - not in spite of being a deterministic system, but because of it), the problems disappear.

What Dennett (and other compatibilists) do is only "word-twisting" under one reading of "free will"... one that makes no sense, because - as I do not tire to state - the concept it describes is impossible.

But this also means that clinging to this interpretation of "free will" and from that position stating that those who say we do have free will, but who give a different definition, one that can actually refer to something real, is somehow a bit tiresome and meaningless - IMO.

What is possible and real is responsiveness to reason(s) and control.

The analogy to "God" and definitions thereof fails, partly because of what Bonzai said, partly because the issue of God is also an issue of religion, politics and oppression, of violence and misinformation. Clinging to the term "God" when one means nature is thus dishonest because one implicitly sides with religions, with churches, policies etc - simply because one openly uses the term. One also implies reverence.
If one takes care to deny all these implication everytime one openly uses "God" in the pantheistic or Spinozistic sense, then there is less of a problem.

You don't have that with the free-will issue.

And I do think it's somewhat insulting both to Dennett and to those who agree with him to state that Dennett calls what he identifies free will so as to console, to soothe, -because it feels good. a) he doesn't use this as an argument for his position and b) he simply states that what is really worth wanting is not classical free will, because that's impossible and solves nothing. What we want is reasonableness and control, and that is possible and actual.

Also in some sense, there is being the originator of one's actions. The system that is you is determined - but it is a functional system. The actions you perform are dependent on that system. The causal origins and determinations of you as a functional system alone are not sufficient. The system itself is the direct causal origin of your actions. Its composition, its structure and its mechanisms are necessary for them.

If you do want to argue - "No. Being the originator of one's actions must mean that that the causal chain of one's actions end (seen temporally backwards) in oneself, that there are no antecedent causes", be my guest. But that is the impossible notion of uncaused causation by a macroscopic system within spacetime.

If you want to identify a holistically viewed system as the originator of action, and thus as "agent" - you'll find it in each individual. And there is IMO nothing wrong with that.

Dennett - as explained above - does not say that having the illusion of something is the same as having that something, he identifies what we have - and he calls out illusions wherever he finds them, such as the "self" as a contained subject.

ad Morality:
Good that that makes sense to you. Yes, the laws and customs, the "holding people responsible" is part of the environment. But it's part of our collectively self-imposed environment. For the most part - it is the effect of reason and rationality.

ad "This is a weak argument on a few grounds":
I think you misunderstood Dennett here. He does not argue that we are the best that the universe can produce in these terms.
He argues that the human mind in general has some limitations - beyond witch it is impossible to even imagine what might be (because the limitations referred to are the limits of our conceptual abilities).
This invalidates especially your third point, because since these are limits of conceivability, even if something beyond that existed, we could not have evidence of it, or recognize it (ex hypothesi true, since it is per defintion beyond what can even imagine). Thus, we cannot possibly have reason to positively assume that there is something beyond that. We can only say "Well, there might be, but we cannot say it is because we could not know of it"

Ad '... no sufficient explanation of why it seems to us that we have free will.':

It might be that Dennett doesn't cover this enough, I don't remember to be honest. But I think we do have a good idea of why this is so, as I explained above. If I may freely quote myself:

"I agree that we are hard-wired that it seems to us as though we have free will because we cannot compute future states of ourselves, our brain, us as a system. I don't think that we "feel" that we have free will... I think we have this as an underlying assumption because of the practical impossibility of producing a detailed prediction of our own future states and behaviour - and that we cannot forsee to a high degree of detail the input we are going to be subject to... and thus what our future will be. Thus it seems to us that that our choices are undetermined, because the monitoring and production of our response to stimuli is not conscious - and I would venture a guess that it would detract from our abilities that rely on our conscience if it were. So there might be an evolutionary reason for this.

Of course we can predcit systems including oursef to to some degree. I can predict what my alarm clock will do, and how the character of others will determine their actions... to some degree. I can also know that I usually or always respond to certain situations in a certain way, since I know my own character. And to that degree that we can forsee our own responses to stimuli we anticipate - we do not think we are free."

846. Are the 'New Atheists' avoiding the 'real arguments'?

Comment #149498 by MPhil on March 25, 2008 at 6:31 pm

Oh, I forgot - the corresponding wikipedia-entry (also worth reading, and far more informative than the one on "Freedom Evolves") for "Elbow Room" is this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elbow_Room

847. Are the 'New Atheists' avoiding the 'real arguments'?

Comment #149496 by MPhil on March 25, 2008 at 6:23 pm

Actually, the book by Dennett really worth reading here is not (IMO) Freedom evolves, but "Elbow Room - Varieties of Free Will worth wanting".

It really all depends on what you mean by "Free Will". If you keep sticking too "free will only deserves to be called thus if it is uncaused, spontaneous causation" - then the answer is that not only do we not have it, but it is an impossibility.

However, Dennett analyzes the notion very differently. I suggest you read this:

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/compatibilism/

It presents (briefly) Dennettian Free Will in point 5.2, but the entire article is very informative.

848. The science of religion: Where angels no longer fear to tread

Comment #148998 by MPhil on March 24, 2008 at 10:05 pm

Intenionality can be seen as real from a position that denies that there are qualia under the classic description and denies that there is 'intrinsic' meaning.

I do think that our brains are syntactic engines that mimic and approximate the power of what we would think semantic engines to be. This has no real bearing on "truth", because there can be representation and thus intentionality (about which there may be no fact of the matter - it may be interest-relative) without intrinsic "meaning".

Furthermore, I have yet to see any theory of meaning that is entirely unproblematic.

Just thought I'd mention this.

849. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #148963 by MPhil on March 24, 2008 at 7:04 pm

Ah, that's okay of course...hmm, maybe philosophizing "before" would be a new tactic... "Boring the pants off of her" :D

850. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #148959 by MPhil on March 24, 2008 at 6:57 pm

You mean I'll be a waiter? Might very well happen, seeing as there are extremely few jobs for philosophers ;)