851. Neither intellect nor faith will save humanity

Comment #18429 by Veronique on January 20, 2007 at 6:45 pm

Gray's article is fine. She does have a way with words and she does Richard Dawkins well.

Thank you scottishgeologist for your link that led to a fine review by Richard Holloway. I also loved his final paragraph.

Don't ever forget that third Richard.

Richard Plantagenent, portrayed as a villian by Shakespeare (writing for Tudor England, so he didn't have much choice in the portrayal), gave us bail, the presumption of innocence, protections in the jury system against bribery and tainted verdicts, and 'Blind Justice' - the concept that all men should be seen as equal in the eyes of the law. And that was in 1483. Not bad.

Now there are 3 Richards. There must be more.

V

852. Deliver us from the god delusion that imperils our humanity

Comment #18428 by Veronique on January 20, 2007 at 6:19 pm

On a more upsetting note:

The Jesuits said (paraphrased): Give me a child until he is seven, and I will hand you the man.

Einstein said: Common sense is the set of prejudices that are acquired by the age of eighteen.

Plato said (using Socrates as his mouthpiece in The Republic): Children cannot distinguish between what is allegory and what isn't, and opinions formed at that age are usually difficult to eradicate or change...

I am only too aware that rationalists do not have the requisite doctrinaire, blind, dogmatic vituperative certainty that the religites display in their indoctrination of our children and their children.

It's pretty hard to combat.

I have taken Yorker's advice and will not direct my comments to any religious post on these threads. Josh, could you please troll TinySaint? It is a diversion we can do without.

Regards
V

853. Deliver us from the god delusion that imperils our humanity

Comment #18422 by Veronique on January 20, 2007 at 5:37 pm

I just have to say that David Williamson is a terrific playwright whose plays underline greed, personal aggrandisement, compassion (and its lack) and a lot of other baggage that we carry around with us. He is a clear and communicative person.

Australia is so laidback that religious vilification is tiny. That said, I have to go back to the comments and follow the links. I know about the Exclusive Brethren and have mentioned them before in these threads. I know there are other extremist groups and they appear to be growing in Australia.

It would appear that the christian (at least) extremists are trying to combat 20th century scientific advances that make their Bronze Age religious doctrines null and void. I just hope that this very dangerous religious dogma is the last gasp before its overdue death. I am not at all sure this is the case however.

Indoctrination of my grandchildren's generation abounds - see the Jesus Camps in the US. Frightening.

Thank you David for your sanity.

Thank you MEim for that link to Memra TV that you gave in another thread. It is truly uplifting.

854. Send a Message to God: He has gone too far this time

Comment #17763 by Veronique on January 16, 2007 at 12:53 am

Hello Russell Blackford.

I only really feel Australian when we win the cticket or the gorgeous opening and closing ceremonies of the Olympics. The wonderful larrikanism of Aussies swells my heart!!

I was brought up in Singapore until the Chinese threw us out in 1958. So my compatriots were Malays, Indians and Chinese. It has taken a long time to adapt to being Australian (I was born in Adelaide).

In other ways I can say I would rather live here than anywhere else. I don't have to lock my car or my house. I have been robbed once (by children who undoubtedly needed the money I left on my desk). I have had one person only make the sign of the cross at me (I thought him weird anyway).

Australians are in a better place than most of the rest of humanity and I think we tend to forget our immense luck of birth and take so much for granted.

Pity about Howard and Costello though! And Rudd ain't going to shape up any better. It's all politics and lies though. Why should we be surprised? Nice to meet you.

Regards
V

855. Send a Message to God: He has gone too far this time

Comment #17739 by Veronique on January 15, 2007 at 9:25 pm

JohnC

Fraser is not that high profile. He's a media mouth. He won't attack the fundamentalists; he can't; he believes in the basic doctrine after all.

I have just watched excerpts and comments of the Jesus Camp videos on YouTube and yes, I am horrified. These people are instilling in children the same sort of 'jihad' as the Islamists. I watched these children brandishing pretend swords.

I don't know how to combat this stuff; I haven't your journalist skill; I haven't any forum except this one.

But head butting won't solve it. And Fraser is what he is - lazy, frightened and unable to address the issues. I wouldn't have the gall to compose an article for public consumption (and criticism) about what I think is happening.

No-one seems to engage eachother in any meaningful dialogue in the media. Dawkins, Harris, Dennett and others do and suffer the consequences. They are focussed on reason as the antidote to believe. I applaud them.

You are right, but the Frasers of the world will never stand up. Their moderateness is all they can call upon and it's better than outright war, because you know what that can mean.

I apologise for being so new at expressing my thoughts on paper (muddled as they may be). I am not Socratically trained. I am trying and any help is appreciated.

Your use of language is great. Don't give up on me yet.

Regards
V

856. Send a Message to God: He has gone too far this time

Comment #17725 by Veronique on January 15, 2007 at 6:13 pm

Thanks Logicel. It's weird to realise that I am writing at 1pm on 16th Jan in the middle of the cricket.

I agree that 'moderate' religion underpins the growth of fundamentalism because it does not denounce its own nonsense and can therefore not denounce the very dangerous nonsense of fundamentalist religious doctrines.

I agree that ALL religion is based on horrible 'statements and stances' attributed to any god by any of his supposed biographers, saints &/or prophets.

The religious wars of past centuries were hard to take and moderation and a more mature tolerance resulted.

No, I am not saying that atheists 'fan' the flames of militant fundamentalism. It is, however an unwinnable situation. To keep reiterating the rubbish of the OT and Revelations to a mind set of people who appear to be incapable of reason (who then subvert what is being said to them) and react like Anne Coulter & friends is dangerous. Yes, they have the money and influence, because we no longer have a monitoring system to keep things in check. Now there's a discussion.

Yes, our countries' weak leaders pander to those votes and the lucre they can bring to bear.

You seem to imply that because moderate religion is not fulfilling people's needs, the changes made (ie female vicars, tolerance re: homosexuality etc.) together with the concommitant argument and dissention within the moderate hierarchy and its ranks has led to the growth in fundamentalism.

You may be right.

It's not that I recommend tiptoeing around religious superstition. I just don't think head butting is efficacious. It certainly appears that way.

Feminism has NOT emasculated men. Feminism has been accepted as fair and equitable in modern, normal 1st world societies and beyond.

Radical, antagonistic 'feminism' which distorted the feminist cause has resulted in their becoming marginalised. I see it in my own community. I would hate to see that happen to science and reason.

Regards
V

857. Send a Message to God: He has gone too far this time

Comment #17706 by Veronique on January 15, 2007 at 3:23 pm

BTW has anyone read Michael Burleigh's book Earthly Powers?

I heard an interview on ABC Radio National Summer on Saturday. First time I had heard of him. He's written a lot!

JohnC - you may have read Burleigh.
Which reminds me, annonymous or not as these posts are, how many Australians are they apart from JohnC, Aussie and me? I get an Australian flavour when reading some of the posts here.

858. Send a Message to God: He has gone too far this time

Comment #17704 by Veronique on January 15, 2007 at 3:15 pm

Thanks for the link Logicel.

I only came to this site after Fraser's articles and your discussions. I have now read through most of the comments.

I certainly had not realised that Fraser referred to himself as a 'failed atheist'. Rather pathetic.

However it is not so much the previous discussions that (and you are right) show his vacuity.

This article posted today (your time) is in regards to 'media atheists'.

I also recall the tortuous road centuries ago that led to the 'tame' mainstream christianity of today. The bloodshed that led to current tameness both in the UK and in Europe meant that everyone had had enough of the religious wars. Europeans in particular, while walking to the corner shop today pass places that recall those bloodbaths. No wonder they had had enough.

The fact that fundamentalism is on the rise is the result of the 'emasculation' of the ordinary 'vicar' culture that grew in the UK and the secularism of the US Constitution. And remember that Fraser is such a vicar, not as Kimpatsu would have it, 'a high-ranking member'.

RD's excerpt was from an April 13th 2006 article by Fraser. Very different from the October and November articles your link led me to.

There few people I wash my hands of forever because they exhibit thinly veiled religious views. All people sometimes voice vacuous and ill-thought out arguments to propel their particular positions. I know that I have been guilty of ill-considered arguments that ultimately fall in a heap under examination. I don't berate myself or walk away from me. I learn to research and read more and then test my better-considered views on others.

Fraser is merely an exponent of the wishy-washy form of Christianity that developed in the UK over centuries. How I wish it had been retained rather than subverted by the extremists.

On these posts, it appears to me that everyone is taking religion by its fundament and pointing out the revolting passages in the OT as arguments. This is what Fraser is concerned about. His preference is for a sort of godless secular christianity.

I prefer no religion and that is not about to happen, however if I had to choose I would opt for the bumbling vicar.

859. Send a Message to God: He has gone too far this time

Comment #17681 by Veronique on January 15, 2007 at 1:10 pm

I have been reading Dr Giles Fraser's articles in The Guardian, one of which is mentioned in TGD.

The latest article was published 15th Jan '07 and can be found here:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,1990370,00.html

He takes Polly Toynbee to task for playing into the fundamentalists hands.

It is a thoughtful and timely warning against stridency.

I would like to hear some of your comments.

Regards
V

860. Religiously Arguing: A response to Michael Novak

Comment #17577 by Veronique on January 14, 2007 at 11:12 pm

MacDonald is getting caught up in a non-argument - as she has done in several previous articles posted on this site. She keeps on hopping on the same shunt car going back and forth on the tracks.

I am putting my money on neurophysiology and neuropsychology. The answers to people's 'experiences' lies down that road. Give me a biochemical science any day. My great aunt mary saw jesus standing at the bottom of her bed several times. But that was yonks ago (and she wasn't put into a loony bin). The sciences hadn't even really looked at what was going on in brain chemistry at that time.

It's all a personal view of what the fundamentalists want to perceive. Forget arguing and writing articles about it. It goes nowhere new. For me, I'll wait until something sensible is said.

861. Send a Message to God: He has gone too far this time

Comment #17560 by Veronique on January 14, 2007 at 6:05 pm

Don't forget John Cleese's comment re: Americans.

'...Americans operate from a low level of mental health.'

He was talking about the reception of The Life of Brian by US audiences. The quote seems. well, still apt...

862. Reason, Unfettered by Faith

Comment #17098 by Veronique on January 10, 2007 at 7:23 pm

Sancus - comment 16819

'The association between religion and children among New Atheists has got to stop before it becomes insufferably ignorant.'

I looked through http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0421-09.htm
and read an article on Patrick Henry College in Virginia. It's founder Michael Farris of Home School Legal Defense Association boasts that it only took 10 years to get home schooling into 50 US states. Unlike legitimate teachers who are required to have a BA or MA and a teacher's certificate in order to teach, the home school parents are exempted from this requirement 'on religious grounds'.

If home schooled chidren go to a legitimate college they will face a very different science than the creationist science taught them by their parents.

If they go to Patrick Henry College (PHC) they will be groomed to take their place in US politics with the same creationist bent that they were taught at their parents' knee.
With the decision at Dover on ID being thrown out as science, a lot of evangelical parents may now have the excuse to bypass the public education system altogether. That means more children will be taught creationist 'science', more will go to PHC and the number of PHCs will proliferate. These colleges are funded by the religious right and so the annual tuition fees are far lower than are needed to go to a normal college. Don't forget Liberty College either.

I think that the association between religion and children is growing exponentially throughout the US and is now infecting the UK in its 'faith schools' that are also privately funded.

I think it is impossible to ignore this association and I find it very frightening. I am not a New Atheist (I am 63) and I think that ALL people should make themselves aware of the incipient subversion of children that belong to my grandchildren's age group.

Please check out the above link.

Regards V

863. Sam Harris's Faith in Eastern Spirituality and Muslim Torture

Comment #16475 by Veronique on January 6, 2007 at 7:09 pm

Thank you John Pritzlaff. I agree with your post. I joined the Sam Harris email list and saw this one earlier. Then I read his (Sam's) reply to the critical interview.

Post to the original on alternet. It will get further out there. A lot of people seem to have trouble understanding both Harris and Dawkins. They convolute arguments and that twists them into knots. Keep it all as simple as possible.

864. God-less

Comment #16474 by Veronique on January 6, 2007 at 6:40 pm

Fedler - 16404

Just remember Aesop's Fables were penned about 630BC with some of them believed to stretch back to 1000BC. Moral behaviour existed long before the Bible's edicts. Don't worry too much. The place will not fall apart if religions go (as they surely will in the next couple of generations).

The morals and social behaviour guidelines of the Fables make much more sense than the Old Testament commandments anyway.

gimlibengloin

Socially interactive species 'know' how to behave and usually do so quite well thank you very much. They don't agonise and develop convoluted arguments or want anything explained. They just 'do' and so do we if we are left alone without cant, superstition or force. Read your Aesop. It will help.

865. Secular fundamentalists are the new totalitarians

Comment #16392 by Veronique on January 6, 2007 at 1:19 pm

I read the article in its orginal publication and was staggered at the number of comments. I couldn't get through them all at one sitting.

I think the big and galling problem for the increasing number of anti-Dawkins, Harris and their like is that while scientists and scientific philosophers are able to marshall properly evidenced arguments, the religious lot have an empty arsenal.

It is this emptiness that results in muddled articles and reviews that are spattered with vitriol and sarcasm. There is little, if any, of the objectivity apparent in the 'Dawkins et al camp'.

The Tobias Jones of the world run off at the mouth attempting to stir up "believers" into a state of fear that 'the rationalists are coming; lock the windows they're coming through the doors, lock the doors they're coming through the windows'

These reviews, comments, call them what you will are not really worth the time or effort of a considered reply.

Yet here I am replying. Damn!! At least I am not replying to Tobias Jones.

866. Without God, Gall Is Permitted

Comment #16289 by Veronique on January 5, 2007 at 11:41 pm

Sorry everyone. I guess that part of what I was trying to point out is that time has moved on from religious explanations for the existence of the earth based on a geocentric belief.

However it doesn't stop any one of us being able to be moved by artists who have survived the centuries and were writing, composing and delivering their art in a time when the only patrons they could find were also caught up in the prevailing religiosity of their times, as were they themselves.

That we know their work all this time later attests to their universality of appeal. No one will ever remember Mr Sam Schulman - he will be consigned to being filed under T for Trash. I think that Dawkins et al will survive for a long time yet. Contribution that has merit always survives.

I am tired of the nay sayers. They contribute nothing except angst. I will not get angry again about their drivel. I will not even try to answer them rationally. I will try to keep this NY resolution. I cannot promise. The fire is rising again in my belly.

I will, however keep posting.
VG

867. Without God, Gall Is Permitted

Comment #16288 by Veronique on January 5, 2007 at 11:27 pm

Soul less? without compassion? no feelings? no morals? no ethics?

Who amongst you cannot read Shakespeare without weeping, without joy, without humour and compassion for the frailty of the human condition? I'm thinking of of MacBeth, Hamlet, Romeo & Juliet. These are my favourites. And yet what of the towering strength of Henry V? What of Shakespeare's language able to move all of us?

What of Donne? Can anyone read him without experiencing an amazing depth of feeling? Wordsworth? Shelley? Keats?

What then of Bach, Teleman, Mozart, Beethoven? Is no non-atheist stirred by the magnificence of their musical expression of universal feelings?

Who among you cannot know the universality in the human experience?

What on earth is Mr Schulman on about? He certainly seems to express a lot of his own gall. And nothing he says moves me one bit!

868. Divided by a common language: Richard Dawkins clarifies his position

Comment #15669 by Veronique on January 1, 2007 at 11:41 pm

Galactic Lord Xenu - comment 15583

I never subjected my sons to any religious or poltical ideology throughout their young lives. They are now 42 and 35 respectively.
What I did do and that can't be avoided by any parent, was teach them language and communication skills. That language (that I use) with all its overtones and undertones, all its unconscious inflections and usage was transmitted directly to them. So, in some sense, one cannot help but indoctrinate one's children.
Both of them have excellent language skills and are very articulate. That's to their advantage.
Did I 'abuse' them by teaching my language with all its interpretive commutations? The answer is probably 'yes'.
Both my sons are atheists and both are married to marginal (however indocrinated) Catholics. My older son has the greater problem during this time of the year. My younger son is more sanguine.
It is all something to ponder.

869. William Crawley, BBC Belfast, names Richard Dawkins as Person of the Year 2006

Comment #15662 by Veronique on January 1, 2007 at 10:52 pm

He has had my vote for 25 years. Well deserved Prof. Keep up the good fight. Don't even think what they mean by rude. Your tolerance in the often appalling thrusts at you from the religites is highly commendable. Never, ever suffer fools gladly. My gentle father taught me that.
Your sometimes testy responses seem very restrained to me.
In contrast to your vilification from religites, these pages and pages and more pages from the rest of us must help. You and Harris and Dennett (and I know there are many others but I only have so many hours in a day and am just waking up from a deep sleep of not caring about any of it) are our voices. You all have profiles. Not many of us do; all we can give is our support.
You have it.
Congratulations. Whose man of the year? Every rational thinking person in the world. Will that do icouldbewrongbut?

870. Let's Hope It's A Lasting Vogue

Comment #15657 by Veronique on January 1, 2007 at 10:26 pm

Sailnsouth - Comment 15553
Part of the turning tide may well have had to do with the independent assessments of Diebold's touch screen voting machines.
The assessments showed the vulnerability to infiltrate the integrity of the machines by viral infection codes that were capable of changing a voter's touch vote to Bush.
The other point made was that Diebold machine availability in known Democrat (often black) precincts were few, meaning that voters waiting up to 8 hours to vote simply fell out of the line and went home.
In other precincts known to be Republican (often white) the machines were far more numerous, meaning that votes were recorded from a far greater number of voters.
Having said that, well done you guys in the mid terms. Keep your wits about you for 2008.

871. Oh, we Brits of little faith

Comment #15522 by Veronique on January 1, 2007 at 2:37 am

What seems to be replacing religion in this basically irreligious country I live in - Oz - is the growing reliance on superstitious 'know thy inner self' healers and others. I have said before somewhere, check out the ads in our local paper http:/www.echo.net.au
It abounds with faith healing, faith in the universe, change your DNA for $80x4 sessions, tantric yoga, spiritual enlightenment etc, etc.

The age group just under mine - the 35 to 40 somethings seem to be obsessed with 'healers'. How can I be happy? - go to a tarot reader, a psychic, an intuitive, an astrologer, a counsellor (with no quals, & if they do have quals where do they get them from?).

This is a growing new-age phenomenon that will replace the old standard-fare religions. And it still frightens me. Critical thinking has not risen with science coming to the forefront. These people take the lazy cop-out route and it's called STILL BEING LAZY.
I despair.

872. How Old is the Grand Canyon? Park Service Won't Say

Comment #15521 by Veronique on January 1, 2007 at 2:09 am

Thanks Aussie. My brother has yet to give me misleading information in the 63 years I have known him.
I know you have said elsewhere that we don't realise how fortunate we are living in Australia until things like this occur and we learn of them.
I have never known our Oz pollies come out in public and express their belief structures except in the last year or two. Except for Fred Nile, of course (and he's a loony). That Howard and Costello were filmed at Hillsong singing and clapping made my blood run cold. I don't care that it was a media exercise, it is frightening. Now we have Rudd, another self-professed Xtian.
The Federal elections coming up worry me.
BTW no-one could put a spin on the formation of Uluru within a biblical context could he? How far away are we in Oz from this lunacy? My tenant is a speak-in-tongues,6,000 year earth charismatic Xtian. First one I have ever come across. How many are there in Oz, apart from the Exclusive Brethren and the Nile group? Do you know? I am secluded in Mullumbimby, have only recently found this site. I am so pleased it is available as are all of you.

873. Not Yet The Majority But No Longer Silent

Comment #15464 by Veronique on December 31, 2006 at 3:13 pm

I try not to use the word 'gay'. Its meaning has been hijacked as Dennett says. I can't quite give up its original meaning so I don't use it.

'Bright' isn't in the same league. However when it develops its new meaning over which no-one would have much control, it could end up in terrible trouble.

I have no problem calling myself an atheist because the word is so evidently self explanatory. I too live in a smallish community where there are a lot of varying sects, superstitions, 'new age' faith healers and the like.

They merely avoid talking about anything that could be seen as contentious. And I am polite, sometimes questioning, but not often. I love having found this site, but do not feel that I could ever take on changing someone's belief from evidence-free faith to evidence-based reason. I can't even see how you can discuss these two diametrically opposed views with anyone to whom faith isn't hogwash. So I don't bother.

I am so pleased that the likes of Dawkins and Harris are able to take it on the big screen. However even Dawkins says he will not formally debate a creationist. It would give creationism a type of credibilty it does not deserve.

874. How Old is the Grand Canyon? Park Service Won't Say

Comment #15458 by Veronique on December 31, 2006 at 1:52 pm

To nine9s comment 15447

I think you might have been replying to Jiten 15339.

I mentioned nothing about poverty.

To JohnC:

I understood that the Bush Administration was trying to get NPS to sell the Noah's Ark book (can't recall the name) by Vaille? and trying to get NPS to not advertise its geological, researched material. That NPS is coming out with 'No Comment' about the age of the Grand Canyon seems to me to stem from its reliance on public funding. Where was I wrong.
As for travel, my brother also visits the US. Must be another US.

875. Islam and science

Comment #15397 by Veronique on December 31, 2006 at 1:18 am

I have glanced through some of the comments made by Islamics on the thread.
I am struck with the idea that Islamic sects and cults are as diverse as those of Christianity. One poster noted that Islamic Malaysia is more influenced by its neighbours than by the absoluteness of the Q'uran.
Groups of people (regardless of religious belief) that have been instructed, nay, impelled to constantly read holy books and pray regularly (5 times/day for Islamics) are being constantly and totally reinforced in that belief system.
Pretty difficult to divorce from such heavy and consistent indocrination.
Science can only develop within societies free enough to think critically and imagine. Religions do not appear to allow such freedom.
Lip service religion is to be, at least, forgiven for allowing freedoms to grow and science to flourish.
Not that I think anyone should pay lip service to anything. It is intellectually dishonest. No wonder I live by myself.
Someone said "the more I see of people, the more I like dogs". Paraphrased I know and I can't recall right now who said it. He was an English playwright and camp.
Thank you all for your postings and humour. I have never felt better since finding this RD site.

876. How Old is the Grand Canyon? Park Service Won't Say

Comment #15394 by Veronique on December 31, 2006 at 12:52 am

LDmiller - comment 15364
What happens in all our countries is an electoral system.
We have 'zanies' in power already, but not our PM. Very savvy, he's taken us back to the 1950s. That has underscored the religites getting into our Parliaments anyway.
But yours is the only country with an Electoral College with appointees who state who they will vote for in a Presidential election. You don't vote for your President.
But then, neither do we. Our leaders are chosen from the Parliamentary arm of the party(s). We only vote for the reps &/or senators standing within our electorates.
I understand from my reading on the 2004 US elections that there is a lot of local input from governors and other officals who actually conduct the elections in their areas. Like Ohio, Florida et al.
We have one Electoral Commission whose sole job it is to register voters, changes of address, changes of electoral boundaries and the overseeing of our elections. It is MUCH more difficult to rig elections here. Having said that, I suppose it could be infiltrated; how far such infiltration would get is another matter.
I think we may have better checks and balances in Oz than you do in the US. We don't have Diebold and touch screen voting for one, though I believe they have an office here (automated teller machines, of course, and I understand Diebold is good at that).
John C/Aussie - care to comment or are you out for NY eve? It's 8pm here so maybe you are.

877. How Old is the Grand Canyon? Park Service Won't Say

Comment #15391 by Veronique on December 30, 2006 at 11:55 pm

Comment 15324-fatcitymax
I agree with you. I have posted elsewhere that everyone has the right to be stupid; some people abuse the privilege.
6 years of this lunatic and 2 more to go. The damage is unbelievable. We've had Howard for 10 years and maybe for 1 more. What we are likely to get after that is frightening in itself.
We have come in on the coattails of US with the diminution of the separation of church and state.
The rot seems likely to continue for a while yet.
You must have some very brave publishing houses in the US. My brother tells me that his friends in the US buy books like Sam Harris' and other with cash so there is no money trail. That's police state stuff. In the 'free' western world.
I hope I live long enough to feel safe enough to visit the US and see its natural wonders. There is no way I would go there at this stage.
I can't quite believe that the Bush administration could try to ban a geological and evidenced paper, books, maps that let people know what has been researched.
The NPS is funded with public funds, right?

878. Woman beaten on Jerusalem bus for refusing to move to rear seat

Comment #15377 by Veronique on December 30, 2006 at 8:51 pm

Homo economicus comment 15107

Everyone has the right to be stupid. Some abuse the privilege.

879. 20 Million Years and a Farewell

Comment #15375 by Veronique on December 30, 2006 at 8:26 pm

Wow - I just looked this fish up in wikipedia. You do have them off Nova Scotia. They also occur off Chile, off Durban and in the Eastern Atlantic. Not for long, I fear.

They are slow moving, deep water, maybe sluggish and easily caught. Hey, some of these fish were youngsters or fry around about when we started the Industrial Revolution. A bit mind boggling.

On a par with Japanese minke whaling. Though there are probably more minkes. Not for long, I fear.

The list moves on.

880. 20 Million Years and a Farewell

Comment #15374 by Veronique on December 30, 2006 at 8:15 pm

Down here in the Antipodes, there is a fish commonly known as the orange roughy. It has a beautiful taste I am told and sells at the best restaurants. It is thought to live for up to 150 years and its breeding cycle doesn't commence until its somewhat late maturity.

I first heard of this fish when it hit the vulnerable to extinction lists. By that time, of course, it was being overfished.

Do this fish a favour and walk out of any restaurant that has an orange roughy dish on its menu. I have done it twice now (because I don't eat out often) and have given management (and the other diners) my reasons, loudly and in no uncertain terms.

Maybe we don't export this fish to the northern hemisphere. But it is on its way out now.

881. Collateral Damage: Part 2

Comment #14848 by Veronique on December 25, 2006 at 11:05 pm

Morten Comment 503

Seems to show, though, that the most powerful nation in the world is also morally bankrupt. And these things seem to dance in tandem?

882. Collateral Damage 1: Embryos and Stem Cell Research.

Comment #14841 by Veronique on December 25, 2006 at 8:21 pm

Thank you ZT. You are on the money! The other thing is:

The end of Time is coming who cares if we pander to the mad religious right in our constituences. In any case, I want to be there when the second coming of jesus wafts (isn't it called the Rapture?) us up onto clouds. (Bush could have said this-yes?) I am Australian, we have them here too but nothing like the proportion in America. I guess our turn is coming. I hope we are what I fondly like to think we are. A nation that delights in its larrikins, is fairly cynical though, (or perhaps, because of it) lazy
and somewhat hedonistic. Nothing too serious please or we'll take the piss.

I watched the Doomsday Code on youtube. I am blown away with this infection of fundamentalism. It's reaching out into the 3rd world for many reasons, not the least of which is political economics.

I have the feeling that Bush does support those who want to bring on the second coming. I will have to read Revelations again. I always thought it was the workings of a madman and not to be taken seriously. I was wrong. In fact I didn't realise that it had been cannonized by the Catholics. I know it was adopted by the Orthodox Greeks in 1672. My brother asks whether there has been any retrospective pschyciatric assessment attempted on the John that wrote Revelations. Does anyone know?

883. A Christmas thunderbolt for the arch-enemy of religion

Comment #14833 by Veronique on December 25, 2006 at 6:33 pm

Another infuriatingly smug person. Look at the language he uses!! The arrogance of this piece takes my breath away.

Thanks IrateHarry 14795 for supplying a background for this man.

I am getting sick of these silly reviews and interviews. I have been out of the loop for so long now that I am reacting as if I were in my 30s. And I am not. I'm 63 and the fire in my belly is starting to ignite again.

Using god as his deliverer is the weirdest convention for Cornwall to use in his diatribe. It is patently obvious he has not read RD's TGD with any sort of critical ability whatsoever.

The man is nut.

884. How the Great Atheist got polite society standing

Comment #14737 by Veronique on December 24, 2006 at 8:23 pm

What a spiteful little man. The only thing I got from it is that Charles Simonyi dubbed RD 'Darwin's rotteiler'. What a delightful dub. Tenacious, strong, focussed and directed, determined.

I don't know where to start with Hattersley.These are some of the emotion laden, subtle language use laden words he uses to describe RD:

cold stare
permafrost of his ego
boasting..he has personally freed..
rant
positively puce
snarl

In his penultimate paragraph, Tattersley says that in RGD, RD 'almost, but not quite, proves that God doesn't exist'.

Did this man read TGD? RD says that God's existence can't be disproved, but that the probability of that existence is minimal

885. Preaching to the converted

Comment #14705 by Veronique on December 24, 2006 at 3:53 pm

Comment 13436 Martha

Indeed it is our formative years that have great (I don't know about 'greatest') impact in our lives. The Jesuits knew this well and advertised it.

I suspect that whatever religion was involved in RD's early upbringing would have been low level or moderate occasioning the occasional lip service to form and tradition. It is certainly swept away by now, with the possible exception of those lingering superstitions, like cracks in the pavement and walking under ladders.

I think you are off the mark by thinking that RD's driving force against Christians and Moslems has anything to do with his own religious indocrination. In any case RD is not crusading against any particular religion. He is for REASON and AGAINST the lack of reason that accompanies every fantastical religion, sect, cult in the world.

Your opinion that the REAL atheist would be completely indifferent to the beliefs and fantasies of others may be right.

However, I don't think so. Your REAL atheist is still part of his local community, part of his larger society and cultural group and, ultimately, part of the global population.

He is still concerned at the increasing acts of violence staged in the name of religion, economic and political domination and the manner in which we, as a species, are beginning to devastate our living space to the tipping point of no return.

RD is the same as any intelligent person with the ability to evaluate his surroundings (except his ability is in spades!) His concern, as with most of us, is that fundamentalism is growing out of the bedrock of religious moderates at an alarming rate. It is these 'moderates' he hopes will opt for reason over religion. Then the bedrock starts to reduce.

It is an admirable aim. I can only hope it works quickly and well and to an order of magnitude I can't envisage. He has the highest public profile and a strong communicative capacity that is instructive, full of analogies and easy, for lay people like I am, to follow.

That's why the scientific community wanted him to start writing in the '70s. Not many scientists have these skills. Of the top of my head I can think of Koestler, Sagan, Suzuki, Flannery, Diamond and Quammen. But there aren't many and certainly few like RD who spread themselves across disciplines. He always admits to his inadequacies in the related fields he writes about that are not within his immediate ambit of expertise.

I, for one, think he writes lucidly and clearly. That TGD has taken off as it has attests to this.

I reiterate, I can only hope it works.

886. The Komodo Dragon's Tale

Comment #14703 by Veronique on December 24, 2006 at 3:31 pm

Riley Comment 18

I used to breed Siamese cats many decades ago. Those of us in the trade where, at that time, trying to breed a red-point Siamese. I had also had cats all my life. The tortoishells - tricolours were female. If, however a tortie male was born, he was invariably infertile. The same applied to the red or red tabbys. The reds were usually male, if a red female was born, she was invariably infertile.

I don't know if that helps, but at it is experienced and evidenced!

887. It is possible to respect the believers but not the belief

Comment #14580 by Veronique on December 23, 2006 at 1:50 pm

Somehow my post was lost. I'll try again.

To Martha, comment 12.

As an atheist why do you 'believe' at all? It is anathema to me to read throughout these forums that 'belief' has anything to do with atheism.

I can't wish anyone merry or happy any celebratory dat except his/her birthday. Every other day is an un-birthday and can be celebrated with the joy and wonder of being alive in this world despite the increasingly atrocious things that are escalating in the name of religion of whatever colour.

To mspatriot Comment 16

Well said, because I couldn't have put together so cogent a comment myself.

I rarely meet anyone who understands that he/she is responsible for his/her own reactions to themselves (our language is lacking and needs updating) and outside events. Until everyone accepts personal responsibility for his/her perceptions and stops believing that something else 'did' it to him/her, we will get nowhere.

I have only recently come across the archived videos on this site and have been led to some truly horrifying external sites. The Doomsday Code is one of them.

I don't know how Richard can keep going day after day, putting up with idiotic questioning from show hosts, audiences and other show guests. The worst I have seen so far is Tony Benn whose apologist attitude and intellectual dishonesty (he was a polly after all) disgusted me.

888. The Only One in Step

Comment #14574 by Veronique on December 23, 2006 at 12:36 pm

My father would turn over in his grave at hearing of these two 'professors'. He was Professor of Bochemistry (in the sense of Head of Dept) at UWA in Australia. He ended up as Dean of Science and was then an emeritus.

It occurs to me that these two (and presumably others of the same ilk) have educated themselves to tertiary level IN ORDER to infiltrate educational establishments with their loopy ideas. That they have deliberately pursued and achieved professorial status gives them a perceived authority over students and others that allows them the delivery of their twaddle to a large audience.

It frightens the hell out of me if my assumption is correct. God botherers acheiving status in order to disseminate rubbish should be viewed as nothing less than disgusting. Professorships are granted, inter alia, on peer reviewed publications. That means that these people have abused the system of education from a very early age in order to subvert the young, eager and inquisitive who aspire to knowledge through our learned institutions.

Richard, this form of educational abuse is on the rise. How does anyone combat it?

889. Response to Richard Dawkins' Criticisms in The God Delusion

Comment #14516 by Veronique on December 23, 2006 at 12:14 am

I don't really want to talk Swinburne who I see as a dissembler.

Thank you Roy_H comment 24 for the link to The Doomsday Code. I had to take several breaks throughout the 101 minutes to do something physical to stop the absolute horror I experienced.

Forget silly Swinburne trying to defend the indefensible. This program presented by Tony Robinson is truly horrifying. It frightens me more than anything I have seen so far either on or via links like yours through the RD site.

How are we ever going to deal with the reality of the world we live in and what we are doing to it if this revolting stuff is spreading at the rate it appears to be.

We are the most destructive species this poor planet has ever had and with the kind of of homo sapiens who believe and proselytise the book of revelations that the mad American right religites are doing in order to hasten the end of the world, I starting to feel that every atheist everywhere has to become an activist.

That, in itself, has enormous problems. We maybe like cats and be unable to be herded because we are all so individual, but this apocalytic stuff seems to be spreading like wild fire. The Uganda segment was appalling in its adoption of this American madness.

I am only just beginning to understand the power of these people and how Bush has either buckled or is a born again anyway (which he appears to be). There was one bloke that boasted that the White House phones him for approval of policy. This is utter madness.

I apologise for this being such a rave. How on earth can this stuff be combatted?

I cannot thank you enough Roy_H for putting that link in your comment. I have sent the link to, admittedly very few, people that I know (if they can stand the length) will be as horrified as I am.

I ahve to have a drink and try to calm down. Thank you so much.

890. Huw Edwards Interviews Richard Dawkins

Comment #14303 by Veronique on December 22, 2006 at 1:38 am

To Garry Bannister

"all we ever experience is what our minds create for us. Things are only so because we perceive them to be so.'

You sound like you haven't looked at Descartes properly. Now, in this time, quantum physics can't be 'seen' but the theory is pretty damned good at predicting outcomes and the physical evidence is there.

Comment 9 Vince De luca - get some help with your spelling if not your grammar

Garry - 10 religion is a viral meme. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to see the obvious connection and its proliferation. You say in post 11 'Most of our motivations are hidden from our conscious minds.' THAT is exactly what RD is saying about the religious meme.

16 - Geoff. Read Plato and maybe I'll talk to you

891. Richard Dawkins on The Late Late Show with Pat Kenny

Comment #14287 by Veronique on December 22, 2006 at 12:14 am

I don't know why my posts disappear when I scroll back to the comment I am commenting on. Help.

I have just come across the archived videos and find posters whose names I recognise. Yorker you are here as well. We have more in common.

Three cheers for your mother. I too have no partner; he shot himself when he was 26 (I was 23). I too have two children, one the son of the suicide who still has trouble coming to terms with it and me; the other lives on the other side of this large continent.

To all of you who suuport voluntary euthanasia, join your local Voluntary Euthanasia Society. I became a life member of our NSW VES about 10 years ago.

Our Federal Government, on the bill of a god bothering MP in the Fed. House of Reps, overturned the enabling legislation of our Northern Territory (no State status-as yet). Only one man who was suffering terminal illness was able to take advantage of the NT's legislation before the Feds stepped in. I find it absolutely outrageous that people who want to die have to resort to hanging themselves or some other equally undignified method. Some go to Mexico to buy Nembutal over the counter and try to smuggle it back to Australia to die in the company of people they love.

Although public polls are not terrifically indicative they show that in Australia more than 70% polled are in favour of voluntary euthanasia. The VESs need numbers so join them in the same way as we are all joined as atheists.

Back to RD and comment 50 from Vardu. I think we all get testy with no brainers. We can walk away. RD can't when he's on a show. I am amazed that he can do it all again and again. I think he handles his frustration with being misrepresented and misunderstood extremely well. At least 1,000 times better than I could.

Talk later. I am going to have a drink with friends

892. The Blasphemy Challenge

Comment #14204 by Veronique on December 21, 2006 at 1:28 pm

Yorker - sorry about my previous comment directed straight to the mad fool. You are right, he should be ignored. I had only just got up and looked at the posts since last night (my time).

I got cross. Plain and simple.

I rather like the word troll. Your baiting of him certainly did work. Unfortunately his baiting caught me. But hey, there are lots of mad people out, mate.

Where does 'Yorker' come from. Someone suggested that it was maybe your preferred delivery. And now we are losing Shane Warne to the next phase of his life. Good luck to him. Not so good for our cricket though.

893. The Blasphemy Challenge

Comment #14200 by Veronique on December 21, 2006 at 1:09 pm

Peterg123

I have no idea who you or where you are coming from.

Please understand that The Blasphemy Challenge was hosted by a group of young Americans - RRS on their website and elsewhere. It would appear that many of them are recovering christians and are mounting a space to encourage other recovering christians to be brave and come out of the closet.

The only way that makes sense for anyone to denounce Islam is for a group of equally brave recovering Islamics to do a similar thing as RRS has done but in their own country.

For those of us who have never affirmed a god or prophet any anything else supernatural, it makes no sense whatever for us to deny anything. That is the position of Richard Dawkins, myself and many others.

As Dawkins has said, up until now most declared atheists were old codgers like me. It is so incredibly refreshing to see the youth of an increasingly mad religious right country like America taking a stand against the American Taliban in all its many guises.

Please stop using this forum to display, what appears to me to be, your own very mad views.

The majority of people using this site are discussing and sharing their thoughts with others; some with humour (very necessary) and all with serious undertones. If you look at these 177 posts (so far) you cannot help but see the obvious sharing of ideas, publications and other web sites.

Take your silly glasses off and look clearly and with dignity at what is happening on this post.

894. The Blasphemy Challenge

Comment #14030 by Veronique on December 20, 2006 at 9:44 pm

I just lost my post when I went to look at a preview and found a spelling error. I couldn't get back to my comments. So, here goes again .

I love an ambivalence of agnostics. A really inspired choice.

I also like an apocalypse of atheists. However it now appears to me that most atheists are recovered christians, born agains, muslims and jews. So how about an apostasy of atheists? Seems appropriate. Yorker and I are in a minority it seems. We were indeed fortunate to have parents who left us free.

You are all wonderful. I am about to join RRS and give them some dosh as I will also to the RD Foundation.

I applaud this growth in understanding. I have listened to the discussion between RD and RRS and it sent shivers down my spine. Marvellous stuff. Never, ever give up. I certainly have never felt less alone since coming across this site.

895. The Blasphemy Challenge

Comment #13879 by Veronique on December 19, 2006 at 11:53 pm

I am new at this so I hope I don't make an error in posting. This is a first for me.

Comment 88 Yorker

I, too, was fortunate to have been brought up with no religious or poltical indoctrination. My father persuaded my mother to leave the three children free. I have no idea what that did to their relationship and it didn't occur to me thank him for this legacy until I was in my early 30s.

Like you, I have little or no idea of the torment of someone letting go of inculcated concepts instilled since birth. The Blasphemy Challenge must, in some way, be as frightening as it is cathartic. I know few recovering religious people and far more that are religious even if it only be lip service. In Australia, we are quite adept at taking the piss so it's difficult to assess the depth or not of belief in our communities. However the mad religious right is as growing a phenomenon in this country as it appears to be scourging the world.

I am guilty of not speaking up seriously and questioning belief structures. Instead I quip that I am a devout atheist. People laugh and things lighten but it is pretty ineffective. All it does is save me from god botherers and celebrations that are common in the christian world.

I live in Byron Shire on the NE coast where there is a plethora of conventional, charismatic & evangelical 'churches' and 'philosophies' like Buddhism, Osho & etc. Then there are the numerous 'spiritual' healers, DNA changers, Get-in-Touch-with-your-higher self counsellors. I don't distinguish any of these types of pseudo religions.

Take a gecko at the public notices pages at www.echo.net.au
I don't know how to make that site into a link on this page. Maybe someone can help me learn this art. I am 63 years old and haven't taken to the internet like a duck to water yet. I am trying.