901. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #168676 by MaxD on April 25, 2008 at 9:27 am

Frankus,
Glad you liked it.
Hopefully Remnant sees it.

902. Student's 'Be Happy, Not Gay' t-shirt ok

Comment #168671 by MaxD on April 25, 2008 at 9:22 am

Anna,
I'm not sure where I sit on the offense taking at the hooters shirt. However, I think the girls protest was brilliant and pointed at silly double standard. They should not have been suspended. Hooters is clearly a slang term for female breasts, and the restaraunt itself a place for people to see them on display behind the veneer of a tight fitting t-shirt. Cock is a slang term for penis. So why the girls get booted and the guys don't is a shock to me.
This strikes me as the same double standard that exists for frontal nudity in film. Full frontal male nudity will likely get you an NC-17, full frontal female is always okay. I'm not sure what the reason for that is but it seems related, don't you think?

903. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #168663 by MaxD on April 25, 2008 at 9:14 am

Bonzai,
That is an excellent challenge.
Love it.

904. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #168662 by MaxD on April 25, 2008 at 9:13 am

Benway said,

Perhaps we ought to support each other's efforts more explicitly. Example: al-rawandi asks a question. If the believer posts something without answering that question, I might say, "Al-rawandi's on the mound... The pitch is good! Oh, no swing from the batter - strike ONE!" Then I say, "Mr. Believer, please answer al-rawandi's question: (quote question).

I think you are spot on. This ties in with Epeeist's theme. It is one reason I've tried to keep to the Flood theme. He hasn't answered a single question in a direct forthright manner. So until he does I say we just direct him to our expectations of honest dialogue.

I don't mind the insults so much, I just wish he would put some meatier filler between them.

905. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #168657 by MaxD on April 25, 2008 at 9:10 am

Oh, I just published a quickly drafted short story on RD.net. Man, I suddenly feel too, too naked, and not in that fun adult fantasy way Remnant is always going on about.
Actually he may mean something else.

906. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #168654 by MaxD on April 25, 2008 at 9:05 am

Remmnant:

Finally, a simple math lesson. John ate three of his ten apples. Sue ate 50 of her 100 apples. Who ate the greatest percentage of their apples? Who ate the most apples in real numbers? and, who had the most apples left?

Wow. That was maybe the dumbest thing I've read in defense of God. I suppose it is about quantity though. Since you think God killed a lesser number of innocents than say Hitler. You never did answer my "Slaughtering of the First born of Egypt" point. And now you are going to ignore that fact God killed millions of innocents who had no idea about him. Say your flood myth is true. Here is what you have to believe God did.

From the discovered diary of a mother living near Noah at the time.

The rains are coming down too hard. I know I haven't much time left. The master isn't home, I can only hope the floodwaters have killed him.

My sons are gone. I have no idea where. Or really how except maybe in the general sense that it was the damned water. They were playing in the neighborhood, this morning when the rains began. The deluge they will probably call it. If anyone survives. As I sit and watch the water cresting the lower portion of my master's roof I can only hope my sons were taken by the currents quickly. I see them though in my minds eye, screaming for me to help them. I see them trapped in a small place as the water rises and the fear they must have felt makes my insides break apart and I want to vomit. I cannot stop crying.

I just watched one of my neighbors laying his wife, stiff and pale on his roof. He tried to lay her down in some way that would be thought dignified I think. He noticed me and laughed and shook his head. Then he walked to the edge of his roof, slightly higher than the one on which I now sit, gave me a small wave and leapt off into the water. He did not surface.
Is this happening every where?
I think I will lay down for awhile. I've written all I care to write about this. And I've seen all I care to see of this. Hopefully the water will spare me of my pain soon.

Perhaps that put a human face on your Just and Loving deity's actions.

907. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #168618 by MaxD on April 25, 2008 at 8:35 am

Remnant attempt to spread his delusion thus:

The is no question that historically, people have done things in the name of religion that were contrary to God's Word. That does not mean that they are truly following Christ.

Okay, how do you distinguish between who is, and is not a true follower of Christ Let the rivers of ink and blood flow. The reason this has been historically so contentionious is because there no way to distinguish the different interpretations. By what criteria do you distinguish such subtlties? Do you think the inquisition had it right when they where massacring witches? Is the pope God's vicar on earth? What about the assertions of Mormonism? Are you a trinitarian? And how do you come by your authority to dismiss, if you do the great theologians of history? Who precisely are you?

You don't even know what the Bible teaches so you are not even prepared to make a decision on that other than out of ignorance.

.
That is just silly Remmynant. Plenty of people in here know the bible, and theology backwards and forwards. They just come to different conclusions than you. This you chalk up to free will because you can't imagine a world in which people can actually come to a different conclusion than you. If we don't see evidence for God it can't be because the fact fail to warrant the proposition, it is because we wickedly use our free will to ignore it. I ask you where is the free will in believing things that are well evidenced?

If I witness a man stab someone to death there is very little choice in what to believe. I can chose to maintain a falsehood, i.e. The man did not stab the victim. However that would not necessarily be the same thing as believing he did not. Evidence based reasoning requires no extra step, faith to get to a belief. And there is little choice in the process.

If you want to compare atrocities between true Christians and atheists like Mao, Stalin, and dozens of other atheists I could name, you will be embarrassed.

.
You have missed Epeeist rather important point. It wasn't Christian Atrocities he was comparing to Axis atrocities. He was comparing God's atrocities to axis powers.
Atheism to genocide is not a short conceptual walk to make. It is tortuous, and requires other religious type dogmas to spur such actions. However I suggest you look to recent history to see what has recently justified genocide. Hint it is religious dogmas for the most part.

For you to even suggest that true followers of Christ are running around physically harming people or advocating that reveals the dishonest intent of your post.

I suggest a look at African conflicts to see if this is indeed so. And again....show me how you identify a true christian.

Christianity was the foundation of all of western civilization and formed the basis of our legal and systems of justice.

Generously we might call this hyperbolic, honestly we say, outright, blatant falsehood. I am not even a historian, and I would point you to classical greek philosophy and democracy, and then I would suggest you look at the secular enlightenment.

Most atheists would like to see Christianity and all traces of it eliminated from society.

I think you mean to say is atheists think it nice if religious thinking were much more marginal and at the very least accepting of the limits of what it can actually accomplish in the real world.

I have news for you friend, if that ever should happen, that will be the end of freedom and justice. It will also lead to immorality. You can deny that but scholars far greater than me have written reams on that issue.

Luckily no one is advocating such censorship, or forced proclamations of the citizenry. That is you strawmandering. You and you alone.

908. Student's 'Be Happy, Not Gay' t-shirt ok

Comment #168578 by MaxD on April 25, 2008 at 8:08 am

I agree he should be allowed to wear the shirt and cannot think of any good reason to deny him that right. Is it hate speech, I think that is not a good concept legally.
If a school were to say, no shirts of any kind with slogans because we think it endangers the learning environment I suppose that would be okay.
As stupid as the shirt is, and despite the wealth of ignorance it betrays, he should be allowed to wear it. And everyone who disagrees should feel free to challenge on it. By wearing any kind of shirt they want, or direct debate. Somewearing a shirt like that has brought a certain amount of conversational interest their way and had better be able to defend the ideas they espouse by wearing them. I hope anyone wearing "Be happy, not gay," shirts gets a good dose of argument, and ridicule for their efforts.

909. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #168561 by MaxD on April 25, 2008 at 7:53 am

Benway!
Indeed it must. Just ask Kirtland's Warbler. I saw what will probably be my last Junco till winter yesterday, but we will see. In the US, especially the mid-western and NE this is the best time of the year for birds.

The parula's are back, I am monitoring an area that I think will be home to Lousianna Waterthrush for the nesting season. Its a great time to be outdoors. Which reminds me....

910. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #168534 by MaxD on April 25, 2008 at 7:33 am

Annabanana,
I think he is here to prove to himself the flawed thesis of Expelled is indeed the true state of the world.

Epeeist,
In boxing people groan about southpaws (miserable to train, miserable to fight) I notice in the second vid the guy on the right is a southpaw, is there a similar dread of the non-orthodox stance? Or is fencing primarily a strong side leads sport?

911. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #168529 by MaxD on April 25, 2008 at 7:27 am

Epeeist,
My daughter has been on about fencing for awhile actually. But try finding a fencing club in my neck of the woods and you will begin to see the problem!

912. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #168517 by MaxD on April 25, 2008 at 7:19 am

Poor hungover Dr. Benway,
I tried to explain that to him a page ago. He completely ignored it. But as your avatar is less intimidating than mine he may respond to you. Cute titmouse that you are.

However if he ever pulls titmice out of a mistnet he will find that cheery image of you dashed. He will also come to hate Chickadees and Cardinals. Oh I am having a Cardinal flash back, must slug some Jameson, make vicious image go away.

913. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #168492 by MaxD on April 25, 2008 at 7:08 am

Epeeist, just watched the first vid you sent.
What was the white light at the top of the column signifying? Fouls?
Excellent. I don't know anything about what is going on but the foot work is really quite amazing to watch.

914. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #168477 by MaxD on April 25, 2008 at 7:02 am

Well remnant,
Science isn't necessarily a search for causes. It is a search for cogent explanations.

But hey stop shifting. Answer the questions that have been put to you.

We have offered explanations ad nauseum only to be met by your bald assertions.

We say, here is a transtional fossil.
You say. No it isn't.

We ask why,
You say,
You guys are just supposin'

We say, but our supposin' fits predictions. It maybe wrong, but it looks right so far.
We ask what would you predict, not the punctuated equalibrists.

You say,
Atheistic indoctrination gurus don't know what happened prior to the big bang, bowhaaaaaaa, ha, haa, ha, ha ahhhhh, bowaaaaaa!

We say neither do you, but cosmologists are working on the problem.

You say;
God x, y, z. End of story.
Bible says x, y, z. What is your problem?

We say uh....that isn't science.
You say,
something insulting. Then add some none related thing about liberals.

915. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #168411 by MaxD on April 25, 2008 at 6:07 am

Phillip1978,
The tiktaalik example (I've seen you use it too) is salient for this particular discussion because it violates the predictions of hydrological sorting based on the Flood hypothesis. I am asking him-Remnant- specifically what the Flood event would predict about geology.
I have not been given an answer.

916. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #168404 by MaxD on April 25, 2008 at 5:51 am

4056. Comment #168392 by Remnant on April 25, 2008 at 5:36 am

OMGoodness. Remnant, did you really just do that? I have to say I think the sensational way Gould tried to sell punctuated equalibria and his own strawmandering is partly to blame for the selective useage of these old papers (1979). (That Ager paper cited by TruthID was also late 70s).

I think something we all noticed in address of the fossil record is that you didn't address it from your Flood geology point of view. How does the flood explain the fossil arrangement? That is the question. Answer it. Do not got to early punctuational equilibria theorists and claim that supports your case. That sir, is disengenuous and perhaps the tinsiest bit dishonest.

What would a global flood say about the arrangement of fossils in the geological column?

917. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #168400 by MaxD on April 25, 2008 at 5:42 am

Epeeist,
You may find this interesting as you are pirate like sword fighter and all. This was the weapon art I used to do. (I'm currently teaching it to my daughter!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WoMgotN90I
Of course you may not find it interesting.

918. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #168377 by MaxD on April 25, 2008 at 5:17 am

Remnant,
you said:

Did you have to rehearse that for long or is it an "evolutionary thingy"? If man is "evolving" to a higher plane, as you believe, one would think that natural selection would have filtered out all of that hypocrisy, anger, and hate. Maybe you are an exception to the "higher plane" theory. Maybe you are just a random mutation and are actually de-evolving back into a Neanderthal state.

There is no judgement about "higher planes" or organisms evolving toward them. A human being is no more, or less evolved than an antelope jackrabbit (Lepus alleni). Both are excellently evolved (that is possess key adaptations to do x)for survinging in certain environments and less well in others. Humans seem to have a sweet (EDIT: yes I know it is suit, but after reading it my error made me laugh so it stays)of behaviors ideal for living in tribal groups of 100 or so people, antelope jackrabbits for making a living in dry desert climates (like say the most beautiful place on earth, the Sonoran Desert). There is no business about higher or lower.

Neanderthals were quite "well evolved" and desparaging them earns you no points what so ever. They had larger brains relative to their body size than we do (this in fact could be one reason that Homo sapiens displaced them. It seems likely that whatever infant/mother mortality was like for the latter, cranium size/birth canal arguments would have been much worse for the former.

919. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #168368 by MaxD on April 25, 2008 at 5:06 am

Bonzai,
(Remnant this post is not for you. It contains one or two profanities and would-possibly offend your refined sensiblities. A friendly warning.)
Ooops you use a minor profanity! That might earn you some scorn from Remnant who had trouble bringing himself to read my posts because he claims I am an avid profaner. He wouldn't read my lullabyes (ani difranco songs I posted for him to read) I found this odd for two reasons. I've been pretty nice in my debates with both TruthID, and Remnant. Any swearing I've done has been to provide emphasis only, and not stylistic flourish, like say a Diacanu, or certain Dark Reverands of which we can think. Of course they are doing it for emphasis as well, but their delivery is more for people like us who can take it and not be mortified by the usage of various combined letters.

His reticence to read a post of mine though has me baffled. For a guy who positively oozes insults it would seem that he should cowboy the fuck up and read people's responses to his vitriol, and not be offended by the occasional profanity.

920. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #168363 by MaxD on April 25, 2008 at 4:57 am

Remnant said

I am a creationist

Then, scientifically speaking all of your work is still ahead of you. All of it.
Not just a little.
All of it.

Debbyo, again bravo.

921. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #168360 by MaxD on April 25, 2008 at 4:49 am

BillySands made the trenchant observation:
(Remnant you might want to read this too as it directly affects your arguments and their internal consistency)

So Remnant, with holding vital information from us are we. Suppose your god is real. Our blood is on your hands. I must say you have very little love for man kind. So, where is the evidence that the bible is a divinely inspired book?

Our friend Remnant (of gray matter) is inconsistant on this point though I am afraid. The problem arises because he blames our free will for our rejection of the obvious (dog's existence) and not the fact that we are using the faculties of our non-remnant gray matter to examine the evidence. He can't accept that people could come to a different conclusion than he himself. This would cast huge doubts on the Dog is Love, Dog is Just thesis.
Well he says that when he is of one mind.

He also says only the Holy Spririt can covict us of the reality of Dog. This falls in line with the "Do not cast your pearls before swine." Line and Dog's leaving the unbeliever in their ignorance. I think Remnant (of working synapses) goes here when being testy. However when he does this he immediately ruins his claim that an unbeliever is culpable by din of his/her free will. At least that is how it seems to me.

922. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #168259 by MaxD on April 24, 2008 at 8:07 pm

Diacanu,

Glad I helped you focus more fully on your task. It is important. And becareful when you go up to that hill and have to say those words, what were they? Immaterial. Make sure you remember them very well!

923. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #168258 by MaxD on April 24, 2008 at 8:04 pm

Thor is a rough character. I think he is the only diety to have ever fought the incredible Hulk to a stand still.
Though he did take an L when he tangled with the Juggernaut, and the Hulk knocked Juggs out ruby stone of cytorakk or not!

I'm not sure Jesus could hang with the likes of that heavy weight crowd!

924. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #168252 by MaxD on April 24, 2008 at 7:50 pm

Diacanu,
Don't we have to also add one hand to the costs?

I at least don't think we should over look it.

925. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #168251 by MaxD on April 24, 2008 at 7:48 pm

Hopeful,

I must have messed up the URL somehow. Lucky I didn't accidentally send TruthID off to look at a porn video!

that might have been the best thing in the world for him.

926. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #168245 by MaxD on April 24, 2008 at 7:36 pm

Okay I know that second one isn't as godless as the first but....
why not you know?

927. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #168241 by MaxD on April 24, 2008 at 7:30 pm

Remnant here is another to play for the family, and your self!
Hey here is another one by the same singer/song writer

God's Country
-Ani Difranco

state trooper thinks I drive too fast
pulled me over to tell me so
I say out here on the prarie
any speed is too slow
I miss brooklyn I miss my crew
let's start over
I missed my cue
guess I just forgot
who I was talking to

I should have recognized
that fierce look in his eyes
I've seen it in the mirror
so many times
he's going to put his two cents in
'cause he's got a gun
but I'm gonna put in three
'cause history owes me one

guess I came out here to see some
stuff for myself
I mean, why leave the telling
up to everybody else
this may be god's country
but it's my country too
move over mr. holiness
and let the little people through

thank you for serving and protecting
the likes of me
thank you for the ticket
now can I leave?
you know I have left everywhere
I have ever been
I don't really recommend it
though not like anyone asked me
maybe you and I
will meet again someday
I've been known to
come down this road
call it destiny
and then again
maybe not
I don't know


Thats fun to play on the harmonica. Your family will love it!

928. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #168238 by MaxD on April 24, 2008 at 7:27 pm

Here you go again, definately no cussing.
Enjoy.
What If No One's Watching"
-Ani Difranco

If my life were a movie
there would be a sunset
and the camera would pan away
but the sky is just a little sister
tagging along behind the buildings
trying to imitate their grey
the little boys are breaking bottles
along the sidewalk
the big boys, too
the girls are hanging out at the candy store
pumping quarters into the phone
'cause they don't want to go home

and I think,
what if no one's watching
what it when we're dead, we're just dead
what if it's just us down here
what if god ain't looking down
what if he's looking up instead

if my life were a movie
I would light a cigarette
and the smoke would curl around my face
everything I do would be interesting
I'd play the good guy
in every scene
but I always feel I have to
take a stand
and there's always someone on hand
to hate me for standing there
I always feel I have to open my mouth
and every time I do
I offend someone
somewhere

but what
what if no one's watching
what if when we're dead, we're just dead
what if there's no time to lose
what if there's things we gotta do
things that need to be said

you know I can't apologize
for everything I know
I mean you don't have to agree with me
but once you get me going
you better just let me go
we have to be able to criticize
what we love
say what we have to say
'cause if you're not trying to make something better
as far as I can tell
you're just in the way

I mean what
what if no one's watching
what if when we're dead
we're just dead
what if it's just us down here
what if god is just an idea
someone put in your head

I mean what
what if no one's watching
what if no one's watching...

Here you go again

929. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #168235 by MaxD on April 24, 2008 at 7:23 pm

I think you have me confused with some other poster. I keep my color metaphors to a minimum.
There was no profantity that I can remember in the lullabye.

930. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #168231 by MaxD on April 24, 2008 at 7:17 pm

Remnant,
God is mocked. All the time. Hmmmm.
Do you think there should be blasephemy laws by chance?

931. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #168225 by MaxD on April 24, 2008 at 7:10 pm

Did you enjoy the lullabye Remnant?

932. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #168203 by MaxD on April 24, 2008 at 6:18 pm

Oh fuck me Bonzai,
That prediction had better not come true! The book length peak oil thing!

933. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #168200 by MaxD on April 24, 2008 at 6:09 pm

Bonzai,
Kids know cigarettes are bad. I think most of them will be okay.
I hope!
: )

934. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #168187 by MaxD on April 24, 2008 at 5:24 pm

Hey Remnant here is a lullabye you might try for your kids.

"What If No One's Watching"
-ani difranco
If my life were a movie
there would be a sunset
and the camera would pan away
but the sky is just a little sister
tagging along behind the buildings
trying to imitate their grey
the little boys are breaking bottles
along the sidewalk
the big boys, too
the girls are hanging out at the candy store
pumping quarters into the phone
'cause they don't want to go home

and I think,
what if no one's watching
what it when we're dead, we're just dead
what if it's just us down here
what if god ain't looking down
what if he's looking up instead

if my life were a movie
I would light a cigarette
and the smoke would curl around my face
everything I do would be interesting
I'd play the good guy
in every scene
but I always feel I have to
take a stand
and there's always someone on hand
to hate me for standing there
I always feel I have to open my mouth
and every time I do
I offend someone
somewhere

but what
what if no one's watching
what if when we're dead, we're just dead
what if there's no time to lose
what if there's things we gotta do
things that need to be said

you know I can't apologize
for everything I know
I mean you don't have to agree with me
but once you get me going
you better just let me go
we have to be able to criticize
what we love
say what we have to say
'cause if you're not trying to make something better
as far as I can tell
you're just in the way

I mean what
what if no one's watching
what if when we're dead
we're just dead
what if it's just us down here
what if god is just an idea
someone put in your head

I mean what
what if no one's watching
what if no one's watching...
There you go off to sleep little fella

935. Is religion a threat to rationality and science?

Comment #168178 by MaxD on April 24, 2008 at 5:05 pm

Mitchell Gilks,
Indeed there was an episode about the early astronomers and indeed Kepler was featured.

936. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #168175 by MaxD on April 24, 2008 at 5:02 pm

Remnant,
I am sure your youngest has been diligently drilled in the ways of rote repetition. Much like you. The perfect picture of enlighted self-discovery.

937. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #168174 by MaxD on April 24, 2008 at 4:58 pm

Remnant.

Do you expose your child to the Bible or just atheism?

Be honest

By expose you mean?

This is silly. Why just the bible? Why the false dicotomy all the time? Did you get your kids a copy of the Koran and read it with them. I can't speak for anyone else here but I have discussed Christian theology with her. For awhile she attended sunday school at a Quaker school when her mother was still being a cultural Quaker. I answer my daughter's questions about what I think honestly.

I don't go out of my way to discuss Christian theology with her any more than I go out of my way to discuss Thor or Zeus. Though we have spoken about all of it.

My daughter currently thinks there is no God. Her path to that conclusion was different than mine. She seems to base her conclusion on the fact there sure are an awful lot of Gods and not much way to figure out who is right. She has a concept of the soul though that closely parallels Phillip Pullman's. I'm sure I've influenced her thinking. I'm sure her mother has. But there is no test, and no dogma for her to learn in our house. (EDIT: It would be strange if this view of hers stayed the same over the next 80 years or so. I'll be interested to see how she changes on this during the portion of her life that I am around. Whatever the case, I am not interested in directing her thinking toward a particular end goal. I do hope that I am teaching her scientific ways to think though).

She isn't yet 10 years old but I think she is already on the road to asking all the right questions. Whatever I've had to do with that I am quite happy to take pride in.

938. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #168150 by MaxD on April 24, 2008 at 3:36 pm

This was TruthID's response to my example and explanation of how theories work in science.

MadX,

No matter how idiotic the theory is? Believe the immpossible versus the unthinkable? You left yourself no other choice.

What drivel. Not scintilla of point addressing. just the equivalent of bumper sticker slogannery.

Okay the vast majority of the Academy of Science finds evolutionary theory to be compelling. As does the British equivalent. Biologists, again the vast majority think it is compelling. Have I mentioned that most such people are atheists or non-religious? Clearly for so many highly intelligent people to find it compelling it probably isn't idiotic.
Allow me to repeat my charge.
Drivel. Worthless crappy drivel.

What is impossible? What is unthinkable? Better get to doing your research leg work instead of depending on the no-nothing propagandists that sit on your side of the issue.

939. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #168146 by MaxD on April 24, 2008 at 3:16 pm

I'm almost cynical enough to think that Bush's no child left behind was an effort to break public schools for a host of reasons. But I do think there is something in what you are saying.

940. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #168141 by MaxD on April 24, 2008 at 3:09 pm

In the US I have to agree that schools are failing. Though not for the reasons Remnant thinks. Not because they are indoctrination centers determined to "atheize" kids. The problem, at least in the US is Education Programs (graduate programs that train teachers) themselves. No one thinks content is important. Teach the kids how to think is the constant mantra, not realizing it is through content (not blinedly applied but sensibly) that people develop critical thinking skills. I just spent the better part of a year in an accelerated program and decided that education wasn't for me. Post-modernism has creeped in, and I think only a major overhaul will bring it back from the brink here in the states.

941. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #168139 by MaxD on April 24, 2008 at 3:02 pm

Steve,

Lynn is an excellent example on this point, especially on her gene transfer and symbiosis theory. Because she isn't widely supported in the way she wishes to apply her theory.

She has put forward some novel ideas and I am waiting to see what happens. I happen to think the robustness of her theory is somewhat limited. I am not alone. However Lynn ran up against this when she helped us all understand the way in which the eukaryotic cell arose. Still you don't see her crying foul, demanding "equal time" as it were. She just keeps doing her research and plugging away. She knows how science works.
And she also knows she hasn't been expelled.

942. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #168134 by MaxD on April 24, 2008 at 2:53 pm

When I was teaching I never ever mentioned my atheism. It isn't salient to biology nor is it necessarily even implied in the strong form. I just taught biology. If a kid asked me, I would of course tell them what I thought. No student ever did. They just took their notes and asked questions.

Many of the science teachers, especially biology teachers I have known are complete unbelievers. Do you know how often this comes up in classes? I've never ever seen it come up in a science class. I lead a discussion last year on stem cell research. Several kids oppposed it based on purely faith-based grounds. I asked clarifying questions and kept the discussion moving forward. I even helped them clarify their position to some of their more ready to pounce classmates.

Do you know who I do see talking about God and religion. It is your side Remnant. Fellowship of Christian Athlete's ring any bells? Meet me at the Flag? I've never seen any one tell kids they shouldn't believe the Judeo/Christian mythology, but plenty of bible thumping in the public indoctrination centers.

I think a certain amount of Atheism (without religion) is implied by what science has discovered about reality. I think that justifies living as if there is no god. But that is something that people are going to have come to on their own after their own research. I've never seen anyone of my view pushing the view in an educational setting.

943. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #168122 by MaxD on April 24, 2008 at 2:36 pm

Phasmagigas,
Winter World is an amazing book. For awhile I was reading it every fall as winter approached.
Just to get in the mood,

Diacanu, allow me to say bravo at your esteem for modern mythology! I think most people share the affection.

944. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #168117 by MaxD on April 24, 2008 at 2:30 pm

Remnant sorry wrong answer, wrong comment, wrong everything.

You will have to prove some group think is going on. You will have figure out how such a thing occurs among scientists. Here is some advice go out for a field season with some ecologists. What you will see is a competitive, volitile group, never so happy as when they are proving someone else wrong. They will discuss their research interests argue about everything and agree on...and this oh so key, only the most well established things.

But bring up processes still being researched actively, sit back open your Guiness and watch the contentious sparks fly. Then return in a few years to see what has been resolved. You will see people letting go of cherished ideas, even their own.

Yeah, group think.
I think you find that more in your neck of the woods anytime you are in worship.

945. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #168101 by MaxD on April 24, 2008 at 2:12 pm

Phasmagigas,
I read your post about the strange way theists buy into evolution and don't even realize it with questions like "is this related to x." Or how they are happy to talk about changes in gene frequency, or epidemiology or whatever and not even get they are actually on board as it were the Darwinian express.

They don't really get it either though. That is why they make glaring errors later when they try to speak authoritatively about these processes and outcomes. See either Remnant or TruthID for examples thereof.

946. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #168092 by MaxD on April 24, 2008 at 2:03 pm

Remnant said:

Now a question for you. If you have children, do you read the Bible to them and discuss it with them?

I haven't no. I would if my daughter wanted me too. But the last book she wanted me to read to her was Winter World by Bernd Heinrich. Which is a popular work on winter ecology. She herself has a fascination with mythology but has found the Christian mythos a tad boring.

947. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #168068 by MaxD on April 24, 2008 at 1:51 pm

TruthiID.
Evolution happens that is a fact. Darwin's theory of Selective processes is one way to explain this.
Hold that in your mind.

While you are holding that there is another fact and theory for you to ponder.
I borrow the example from Richard Feynman.
Red bricks are facts.
The insides of red bricks are theories. It is a theory consistent with all the know behaviors of red bricks though. Assuming red bricks are more or less uniform throughout we can make predictions about their behavior in various situations. And behold the brick brick behaves as predicted. Thus we don't accept the null hypothesis that red brick innards are vastly different from the material of their exteriors. There are no neutron star bits inside them, or cotton candy.

You cann't really show me the inside of a brick. Go ahead break the red brick open. Nope that isn't the inside, that is now the outside of two bricks. Do you see what theory means a little better now?

The neo-darwinian theory of evolution is a theory that is so far consistent with all the know facts and predicts other phenomena. Until such time as it fails to do so, or something else comes along that can do this better, The Theory stands.

948. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #168032 by MaxD on April 24, 2008 at 1:29 pm

Hey all, I just cleaned up this Comment #167935 by MaxD. It was kind of a mess. It may still be. But in my defense I was very, very hungry

949. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #167935 by MaxD on April 24, 2008 at 12:34 pm

Grass is still grass. You have no understanding of the species, or genetic isolation, or divergence. If new species can and are created then you will be hard pressed to convince people that over longer time things like genera, families, orders and so on are not also capable of being created. For a long time the creationist insisted kinds (as in species) were the immutable points that permentantly damaged the evolutionary case. However when that wall fell, kinds suddenly got redefined, actually it was never defined. It is just blanket catch all that means-scientifically- nothing. That is why we can all have a chuckle at your

grass is still grass

nonsense. Becuase in a fundemental way it isn't.

My point about domesticated dogs is that we have, with various degrees of intent taken in the example of domesticated dogs, the wild-type wolves, and made, by any biological classification you want to name hundreds of new species. I would bet that if we found them in ,these domesticates, in the wild we would place some of them in seperate genera too.

For something even more crazy look at brussel sprouts, kolrabi, swedish turnimp, golden savoy, and drumhead cabbage, and cauliflower. All are derived from wild cabbage which is nothing like any of its descendents.(example taken from Climbing Mount Improbable). Now you can't use your little pet ignrance and hide behind a label that describes a broad range of types. That is you cannot say, "Its still cabbage!"

950. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #167914 by MaxD on April 24, 2008 at 12:20 pm

If it is a Australian Cattle dog then of course you will have no problems!