901. Anti-Quran Film Fitna Pulled From Web Due to 'Threats'

Comment #152879 by Bonzai on March 31, 2008 at 5:01 pm

In fact one man I met from Abu Dhabi said "We want to be killed". That about summed it up for me.

What if they get killed with bullets coated with pig blood. Do they still go to heaven?

Maybe instead of dropping bombs, spraying them with pig shit would deter them?

902. Anti-Quran Film Fitna Pulled From Web Due to 'Threats'

Comment #152867 by Bonzai on March 31, 2008 at 4:50 pm

Some people are talking about "the religious groups" presumably not to single out Islam.

The religious groups? Not all religious groups are the same. The COE, the Catholic Church and even that arsehole Robertson's church are not anything like Islam.

Islam is a toxic ideology, you would be deluded to think it is just another religious problem and respond with the trite "all religions are false" homilies. Some people here seem to take equal offence, if not more, at COE Bishops opposing same sex marriage as imams calling for killing gays, right under their noses.

I have argued many times that when there is a specific conflict where real grievances are involved, it is naive to attribute the primary cause to religion. The M.E conflict is geo political rather than religious in nature. I still stand by that.

But this doesn't let Islam off the hook. While geopolitical struggle and nationalism explain Hamas, it doesn't explain why British born and raised Muslims would blow up the subway.

When our "leftists" try to spin it by laying the blame on "British foreign policies", there is an air of unreality to it. The fact is many of these young Jihadists had never lived a day outside their comfortable middle Class Western lifestyle. They wouldn't know what it is like to be in Iraq or Palestine. If they mention "British foreign policies" at all, it is almost an afterthought.

Some, like Nairb may say these young men are alienated so it is again the society's fault and we need more accommodations, not less, to their religion to remove the alienation. It is as if the teaching of Islam has nothing to do with it.

There are many alienated young people of varying racial and religious background, but none other than Muslims are talking about Caliphate and plotting mass terrorist attacks.

We can accept the supposition of alienation and do a thought experiment. If our alienated young man discovers the Hare Krishna instead of Allah, he may get a bit goofy, but certainly wouldn't have develop the idea that blowing up a trainload of innocent people is a legitimate way to deal with his alienation and with God's blessings too. Even if he takes up Christian fundamentalism, he would just become a prick rather than a homicidal maniac.

All religions are not the same and we better not delude ourselves into thinking that they are.

Also, as AL pointed out, the danger of radical Islam is not confined to terrorism, which seems to be getting all the attentions. Sharia through the ballot box is just as deadly. Take a look at the alarming rate of radicalization of Malaysia, which has been always a model of a secular, modern Muslim country.

903. Anti-Quran Film Fitna Pulled From Web Due to 'Threats'

Comment #152805 by Bonzai on March 31, 2008 at 3:02 pm

"What you get is outrage and a sense of alienation."

"Alienation" is the condition of all young people, and Muslims are not the only immigrants. How come no one else are plotting to blow up subways and behead politicians?

904. Are the 'New Atheists' avoiding the 'real arguments'?

Comment #152686 by Bonzai on March 31, 2008 at 10:56 am

Who are the observers, how do you know they exist?

905. Are the 'New Atheists' avoiding the 'real arguments'?

Comment #152684 by Bonzai on March 31, 2008 at 10:47 am

Jac.

Descartes said "I think, therefore I am." As I understand it that is the most basic thing we can ever assume to be true and all else falls into question. Rocks. God. Free will.

Yes, rocks and god. But can you untangle "free will" from "I think"? I don't know if it would make any sense to speak of "unfree will", so it seems it is taken for granted that "will" must be free.

Can you say "I think", without being able to "will"?

If free will is an illusion, perhaps so is "I think". But then if I don't exist, "who" is being deluded? My brain hurts.

906. Anti-Quran Film Fitna Pulled From Web Due to 'Threats'

Comment #152581 by Bonzai on March 31, 2008 at 8:27 am

Aside from execution, another "treatment" for homosexuality in Iran is forced sex change operations. Apparently they have the second highest rate of sex change operations in the world after only Thailand. I posted a link before but it would take a while to find it again.

Apparently it is not ok to be gay in Iran but being transgender is somehow acceptible after Khomeini issued a fatwa approving it.

907. My quest to get de-baptised

Comment #152573 by Bonzai on March 31, 2008 at 8:19 am

Also I do recall several devices on the market designed to pull the skin had names that made me chuckle.

I read one method consists of hanging some steel balls there to help the skin grows back using gravity. This guy was giving a presentation at work, suddenly he heard something snapped and he went "shit", then a little steel ball fell out from the bottom of his pants and it rolled on the floor for a while and landed by the feet of his boss. The boss picked it up and said, "Er... Jim, you dropped something.."

908. Fleabytes

Comment #152563 by Bonzai on March 31, 2008 at 8:13 am

I don't like gossiping about people but sometimes I just can't help it. I read the messages by Robertson, I come to the conclusion that the problem with the man is not even so much in what he believes, the guy is just an asshole. There are fundamentalists like revcort who believe in more whacky ideas but they come across as nicer and more honest people.

909. Anti-Quran Film Fitna Pulled From Web Due to 'Threats'

Comment #152550 by Bonzai on March 31, 2008 at 8:03 am

I don't have any statistics but based on informal data I note an interesting pattern. A lot of religious fanatics appear to be engineers. Many of the 9/11 terrorists were graduates of engineering schools, as are some of the people arrested in various busts. Many well known creationists are also engineers.

Am I onto something or am I just having too much coffee?

910. My quest to get de-baptised

Comment #152539 by Bonzai on March 31, 2008 at 7:54 am

This sounds kind of silly. It is nothing but grand standing knowing that it is safe to do so.

I was baptized as a Catholic when I was a baby. It has absolutely no significance in my life. If you don't want to be part of the religon, just stop going to Church and stop believing and tell people you are an atheist when asked. At least we have the freedom to do so.

Now it would be a lot more significant and worthy to campaign for the right to apostasy in Islam.

911. Anti-Quran Film Fitna Pulled From Web Due to 'Threats'

Comment #152368 by Bonzai on March 30, 2008 at 8:32 pm

MG

I don't know why, but this whole thing reminds me of the political video that won the youtube contest. It really scares me that that pro-islamic video won. It shows a women and burka, and a pop-idol or whatever and the words "free" and "repressed" (I think those were the words, if not similar words) switched between them. My jaw dropped, and that angered me. How many teen-idol or whatever they were suppose to be are beaten to death by their fathers for not dressing like little sluts? Women in burkas certainly are free to dress like that, but the important thing is that they aren't free not to dress like that.

Actually, that kind of attitude is quite prevalent among some naive secular "leftists". Let's celebrate "cultural diversity" as long as we don't have to endure their practice. I use "leftists" in quote because they betray the traditional leftist ideals of universalism and embrace a kind of toxic identity politics. If you are a white guy and beat your girl friend you should have your sorry arse hauled to jail,--which I agree,--but if you are a Muslim from Pakistan somehow that deserves some special considerations.

Some of my friends are among these "new leftists" and it is frustrating to even have a sensible debate with them. For example, when I said that gays got executed in Islamic countries, they retorted by saying that we are just as homophobic in the West because many people don't support same sex marriage. I mean, hello? I am gay, I certainly don't think not being able to marry is quite in the same league as being beheaded in public,

912. Beware the Believers

Comment #152360 by Bonzai on March 30, 2008 at 7:57 pm

Maybe this is a university project in "post modernism".

The creators of this video are now monitoring our discussions to gather data for their report.

The arts in an area where PoMo would "make sense".

But it is an attitude, a kind of playfulness and a celebration of ambiguity and multi-layered meanings. It is not a formal -ism. The moment you try to turn it into some kind of high level "discourse" like the ivory tower intellectuals you lose its spirit. It becomes too self conscious.It is like on the other thread, some 8 year old little girl who attended some "freethinker Church" said grotesquely, " I like to be a freethinker". The irony is she sounded totally brainwashed. A truly free thinking 8 year old just does, she wouldn't even be aware of the label.

I agree that this is a success just by arousing our interest and generating so much discussion. It has at least succeeded in intriguing us, that is good. As someone pointed out, RD never posted that many messages in one thread.

I also agree with the other poster that the 24 year old Alexander kind of sounds like my dad. Actually no, even my dad is not that stuffy. I am 33.

913. Beware the Believers

Comment #152274 by Bonzai on March 30, 2008 at 3:31 pm

It is so typical of some people here, religion is only about making truth claims, love is "just" electro-chemistry; art is only about its "message" and whether it is "with us or against us",

Try to challenge your linear, mechanically rational mind a bit. Not everything has a point to it, and sometimes what is intended to be the point is not the point at all. It is often ambiguities that make life interesting,

Some one once said, even if you don't know what the spider web is for, it is still a beautiful thing to look at and that is enough to make his day.

I frankly don't care whether this is from "our side" or not, it is still interesting even if it is an IDer who came up with it.

914. Beware the Believers

Comment #152263 by Bonzai on March 30, 2008 at 2:54 pm

I add this to my favourite. It is clever. But then I am one of those guys who love South Park.

915. Police: Girl Dies After Parents Pray for Healing Instead of Seeking Medical Help

Comment #152092 by Bonzai on March 30, 2008 at 5:01 am

All right, as Dylan sang "one more cup of coffee before I go".

For goodness sake man, get a grip. So far on this thread you have called me (and others) puritans, idiots who would not pass the Turing test and now anyone who responds quickly to you is some like of virtual stalker.

1. Yes I did call you guys Puritans of "reason", I think that is apt and you least of all should be offended. With thinking like "the moderates enable the fundamentalists" and "belief in invisible God --> a licence for gullibility all the way --> refusal to see doctors" Puritanism for "rationality" is exactly what you have been promoting here, is it not?

2. I used "people who can't pass the Turing test" and "idiots" for believers such as the parents. Not you and others. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

3.I mentioned your quick response because Hobbit was apparently insinuating that I may have OCD.But obviously I am not the only one and hardly the most acute case here, It didn't mean to imply that you're cyber stalking. Again my apologies if that wasn't clear.

916. Police: Girl Dies After Parents Pray for Healing Instead of Seeking Medical Help

Comment #152079 by Bonzai on March 30, 2008 at 4:45 am

Richard M,

If you had any self-respect, you could have found a more direct way of admitting that you'd lost that argument.

Who makes you the judge?

If I lost an argument at least I have one to begin with, can't say this about you.(of course I haven't lost the argument, but it will take more time to respond and I am outta here for now, I do have other commitments)

EDIT: TGD is not a very good book, have read it, find it so so. Dawkins is much better when he sticks to biology, just my opinions.

917. Police: Girl Dies After Parents Pray for Healing Instead of Seeking Medical Help

Comment #152075 by Bonzai on March 30, 2008 at 4:39 am

No, I'm talking about you, who has no image all over this site, but lots of text.

He also has more text than me, do a search, and I don't log on here 24/7 waiting to pounce.

I am surprised that whenever I made a post I can expect Steve to respond within minutes.

Speaking of which, it is relax time, have to go.

Oh, one last thing

Geoff

Yes it does! lists of salt/fat/etc contents. "May contain nuts".
Plus all the government health warnings: "5-a-day" and so on.

Well in that sense you do have safety warnings for religion. Some are labeled cults.

918. Police: Girl Dies After Parents Pray for Healing Instead of Seeking Medical Help

Comment #152065 by Bonzai on March 30, 2008 at 4:23 am

Hobbit

I really don't want to get into this argument, simply because Bonsai is a bore who is like a dog with a bone when he gets into an argument.

Are you sure you are not talking about steve z? Whose picture do you see all over the site?

Sorry steve, I just can't resist this. :-)

Rape is almost never about sex or sexual fantasies. I t is almost always about power.

Sexual fantasies can be about power too,

919. Police: Girl Dies After Parents Pray for Healing Instead of Seeking Medical Help

Comment #152059 by Bonzai on March 30, 2008 at 4:15 am

As you are the one making the distinction, perhaps you could tell us, along with
the "proper" use of faith and prayer?

All reasonable people would make the distinction.


Your big pharm analogy doesn't work unless, you believe prayers actually have active ingredients,

Many more people die of causes induced by eating junk food and fat,--heart diseases, diabetes etc,-- in the U.S than prayers. Food doesn't come with safe use manuals.

Most things in life don't come with instruction manuals and people get along fine, except for a few robotic individuals or so called rationalists who want to pretend that everyone else is a robot.

It encourages permanent delusion - it is not switched on and off within relatively safe bounds, and if someone wanders around all day in a dress and claims they hear God we call them Bishop, and invite them on government committees.

You keep harping on this and it has been dealt with many times. When Bishops got invited to committees they were invited by your secular government which does so for political reasons,-- rational calculations. They could have miscalculated but it has nothing to do with "faith".

It is not he Bishops' fault to accept the invitation. If you are given a podium for free wouldn't you use it?

920. Police: Girl Dies After Parents Pray for Healing Instead of Seeking Medical Help

Comment #152049 by Bonzai on March 30, 2008 at 3:55 am

irate,

So, has your dentist not heard of modern anaesthetics? You need to get new dentist.

In order to apply local anesthetics they need to stick a needle in your gum first, that is scary and painful. Secondly, you are conscious when the dentist does his thing because the anesthetic is local. You may not feel much pain but you can hear all the drilling and pulling. I have had a dentist who felt inclined to do a play by play update when my tooth was being pulled. "Oh.. oh.. it is coming off, oh shit, get to pull harder,,,"

921. Police: Girl Dies After Parents Pray for Healing Instead of Seeking Medical Help

Comment #152033 by Bonzai on March 30, 2008 at 3:38 am

As you are making the distinction between proper and improper use (I'm not - I think it is all silly), then presumably you have some way to make the distiction. I am asking what it is.

So what is the "proper use" of sexual fantasies? We all have them but some do go out and rape. Do we need an algorithm to determine what is a proper fantasy ? The answer is obvious to most people with common sense except for idiots who wouldn't pass the Turing test. The answer is just as obvious to your rhetorical question.

This is an appropriate analogy as some here are behaving like Puritans for "reason".

922. Police: Girl Dies After Parents Pray for Healing Instead of Seeking Medical Help

Comment #152023 by Bonzai on March 30, 2008 at 3:13 am

How do we know for a particular believer whether or faith and prayers aren't precluding common sense? How do we know they are being used "safely"?

What are you, the thought police? How do we know you won't go out and rape people because you have sexual fantasies?

How do we know that a committed environmentalist wouldn't turn into an eco-terrorist? How do we know "science" is safe? It is used in the creation of weapons of mass destruction, including so many nuclear bombs that would blow us up ten times over.

I think this is a silly question.

923. Police: Girl Dies After Parents Pray for Healing Instead of Seeking Medical Help

Comment #152012 by Bonzai on March 30, 2008 at 2:50 am

Steve,

Someone is harmed in a car crash. They were driving too fast. They weren't wearing a seat belt. Were they harmed because they were driving too fast? Were they harmed because they weren't wearing a seat belt? Both reasons are true. Without either factor, there may have been no harm.

No, this is not the right analogy, Your argument would be like saying they get hurt because they drive.

I was interested in your responses to the questions I put. If you claim that faith and prayer are safe for those who use them appropriately, then it is reasonable to ask you how we can determine they are being used appropriately.

Faith and prayers don't preclude common sense, this is the way practiced by many believers.

There seems to be an unspoken,--sometimes even spoken,--assumption that religious people either inhabit a different universe where they are completely immune from non religious considerations, or that they are required by their religion to so segregate themselves. This is as valid as the mad scientist stereotype.

924. Police: Girl Dies After Parents Pray for Healing Instead of Seeking Medical Help

Comment #151959 by Bonzai on March 29, 2008 at 6:50 pm

The "implication" wouldn't be weird if you quote the whole paragraph instead of just a snippet out of context so you can't see what is the point being made. It doesn't "imply" anything of the sort you think it does,

925. Police: Girl Dies After Parents Pray for Healing Instead of Seeking Medical Help

Comment #151954 by Bonzai on March 29, 2008 at 6:29 pm

newskin

Her parents knew she was ill, as they were praying for her recovery. You may have skipped what the parents said in the article:

I know that, but that is their particular take on "faith"and prayers. When posters challenge other Christians to comment, the assumption is that somehow this is integral to any belief in God, or at least Christianity. That is plainly not true. So, it was not the belief in God, or even the belief in Christianity, that killed the girl, it was the parents' peculiar way of believing.

. It's a real stretch to assert that a non-religious person would have acted in the same way,

Well the South African President believes that HIV doesn't cause AIDS.Their health department insists that a combination of herbs, organic food, chicken soup and garlic is a more effective treatment for AIDs than modern medicine. They are not motivated by religion to my best knowledge, pesudoscience is the culprit.

Merely believing in some God is not the most irrational thing humans can do. In some cases it may be drastic, in others it is pretty tame on the scale of irrationality, it depends on the specific contents of the beliefs,

926. Police: Girl Dies After Parents Pray for Healing Instead of Seeking Medical Help

Comment #151948 by Bonzai on March 29, 2008 at 5:53 pm

newskin

The doctrine of prayer. As already stated but I am beggining to understand you are have selective vision.

Again, the passage cited by mmurry doesn't say blessings would just happen. You may still have to buy the lottery ticket instead of waiting for money to fall from the sky even if the prayer is answered. I don't see how this is a "selective" version

Popes do see doctors when they are sick and that is not just in modern times.

Finally, as again you have not grasped it, I am saying that modern christians go to the doctor (as you have), so why bother with prayer? I am also saying that god made them ill in the first place.

That is an entirely different argument, I would agree with you on this.

But the original accusation you made was the little girl died "because the parents believe in God", that would imply the belief in God and prayers prevented them from seeking medical help. Where is the evidence of that?

To illustrate the point, I used the example of Jehova Witnesses, for whom there is a doctrine against transfusions so it would be valid to say the parents' belief caused the daugther's death if she needed a transfusion but was denied,

927. Police: Girl Dies After Parents Pray for Healing Instead of Seeking Medical Help

Comment #151945 by Bonzai on March 29, 2008 at 5:43 pm

newskin

Bonzai, Im afraid i cannot help but raise a smile whenever the religious get so up tight about evidence. It seems you are happy to base your whole philosophy, and life, on something that you take on faith but require detailed evidence for anything else!

You are so wrong about this. I am an atheist, never been religious.

However, I do abhor simple minded thinking, wherever it comes from.

I have no problem criticizing religion and I have done so often, but I don't like to caricature all religious people with one broad brush and I happen to think that there are intelligent believers with whom we can have a conversation instead of using bully tactics to "challenge" them, most notably by putting words in their mouths and attributing to them idiotic beliefs that they don't hold.

"Not my religion" often is not an excuse, but a valid response to strawman arguments,

928. Police: Girl Dies After Parents Pray for Healing Instead of Seeking Medical Help

Comment #151940 by Bonzai on March 29, 2008 at 5:24 pm

newskin

You did not argue, you merely asserted that with some weak anecdote.

You claim there is a Christian reason to not see doctor, give me one. The onus is on you,

You have adressed no points from any of the contributers and have meerly seemed to suggest that modern christians accept that prayer is a load of boloney and seek help from doctors.

The contributors here don't make much a point except trying to use this tragedy to implicate all Christians. It is not a valid point and I have addressed it by showing how an intelligent Christian would have refuted it easily,

You are saying that the modern Christians are somehow perverting the religion while these idiots who expect magic healing to fall from the sky are not, Where is your evidence?

929. Police: Girl Dies After Parents Pray for Healing Instead of Seeking Medical Help

Comment #151933 by Bonzai on March 29, 2008 at 5:16 pm

Richard M.

So many different types of Christianity. But the common factor is Christianity... and magic prayers.

When you claim "there is no "Christian" reason that prevents them from seeing a doctors", I do hope you are not setting yourself up as the ultimate decider of Christian doctrine. That would be a little ironic in the context, don't you think?

Well many Christians do believe in the magic prayers, but other than a few isolated cases like this I have never heard that the magic will just fall from the sky and you don't need to do anything for it. If you pray and hope to get rich, at least you should buy the lottery ticket instead of sitting to wait for a bag of money to fall from the sky.

You may know otherwise, but I don't know of any Christian school that says that believing in prayer means you have to wait for the money bag to drop from the sky (after a hurricane perhaps?)

930. Police: Girl Dies After Parents Pray for Healing Instead of Seeking Medical Help

Comment #151925 by Bonzai on March 29, 2008 at 5:02 pm

That's not MY Christianity

Your point being?

Well maybe indeed that is not,

I certainly wouldn't think for a moment that this kind of idiocy is flying goose's Christianity, for example, and likely not Robertson's or McGrath's either,

A soundbite is just that, it is not an argument,

EDIT When this soundbites is invoked, it is usually an expression of frustration because of the failure to set up strawman arguments.

931. Police: Girl Dies After Parents Pray for Healing Instead of Seeking Medical Help

Comment #151920 by Bonzai on March 29, 2008 at 4:54 pm

This tragedy was the result of many causes - the illness, the idiocy of the parents, their religious beliefs. Just because the parents were idots does not in any way justify dismissing the religious factor.

If there are many factors why say she died because her parents believed in God?

newskin is at least honest in stating his assumption, but you seem to shift all over the places,

When being called out for simplicity by pinning everything on the general belief in God, you would say, no, no. It is complex,you never said religion is the only factor. but then you would turn around and argue exactly as if you think religion is the only factor,

Are you using techniques you attribute to religious moderates in your own debates?

Religion enabled their idiotic behaviour

I don't agree with such a blanket statement.

As I argued, there is no "Christian" reason that prevents them from seeing a doctors.So if they are "just" Christians she might very well still be alive. They have their own weird interpretations of prayers that is clearly not shared by most Christians,

Now Jehovah Witnesses do have a specific dogma against transfusion, if the girl were a JW and she died because her parents denied her a transfusion than you can say religion was an enable factor,

932. Police: Girl Dies After Parents Pray for Healing Instead of Seeking Medical Help

Comment #151905 by Bonzai on March 29, 2008 at 4:34 pm

Praying is good. Trusting God is good. Listening to preachers is good. God moves in mysterious ways. He answers your prayers. Listen hard enough and you can hear his voice. But, he doesn't answer all the time. You may need to have more faith, and repent your sins. Suffering is God's way of cleansing.

Maybe that is your understanding, along with some fundamentalists such as the unfortunate girl's parents. I have never heard from any Christian I know that "God answers prayers' means you should just sit on your arse and wait for blessings to fall from heaven.

It seems that you have again just quoted one or two sentences from my post and ignoring the rest.

933. Police: Girl Dies After Parents Pray for Healing Instead of Seeking Medical Help

Comment #151903 by Bonzai on March 29, 2008 at 4:30 pm

There are no cheap points being scored here, this girl died because her parents believed in god.

No, believing in God doesn't mean they have to deny her medication. Many people believe in God and they do go to the doctors when they or their families get sick,

The little girl died because these people are idiots,

934. Police: Girl Dies After Parents Pray for Healing Instead of Seeking Medical Help

Comment #151894 by Bonzai on March 29, 2008 at 4:17 pm

I am not sure why so many here seem to think that all Christians should somehow apologize for or excuse for such behaviour. The assumption is that somehow these crazy parents are doing what good Christians are supposed to do

I don't quite see the logic here.

An intelligent Christian would simply tell you that God would have answered their prayers through the doctor but they have to get off their arses and do their part of the job. No apology, no excuse, no evasive mental gymnastics, There is no need for all that, the answer is too easy.

It reminds me of a joke a Jewish friend told me. He said this poor Jew was praying to God everyday begging for God to send him a fortune, But his prayers were not answered and he died poor. When he met God in heaven he demanded, "God, I prayed to you days and nights, why did you ignore my prayers?" God answered, "I didn't, but you've got to spend the two dollars to buy the bloody lottery ticket yourself!"

I don't think this is a "gotcha" moment for the moderate Christians and I find it kind of crass to try to exploit this tragedy as ammunition to score cheap debating points with theists.

935. Beware the Believers

Comment #151825 by Bonzai on March 29, 2008 at 2:01 pm

I don't think it is pro-ID, but it is not a ringing endorsement of RD and gang either.

I agree with Janus that

If I had to guess, I'd say this was made by a theistic evolutionist, or an atheist who "believes in belief".

Like devolve, I love South Park.

936. Beware the Believers

Comment #151727 by Bonzai on March 29, 2008 at 9:01 am

Cartomancer,

I guess I must put my hand up and say that I burst out laughing uncontrollably at this too. I couldn't work out which side it was satirizing either, but I don't think that matters because the humour here is not primarily in the satirical content. It comes from the burlesque - the incongruous juxtaposition of radically different style and content.

Well said, you have a way with words that makes me envy. I wish I could have expressed it so well and elegantly.

937. Beware the Believers

Comment #151719 by Bonzai on March 29, 2008 at 8:50 am

Brian,

You'll grant this episode is pretty interesting at least?

Oh, don't get me wrong, I actually like it a lot.

938. Beware the Believers

Comment #151711 by Bonzai on March 29, 2008 at 8:41 am

Richard,

You mean you don't understand it well enough to know which side it is satirizing,, yet you still consider it well made, clever and very funny?

Sometimes art is not meant to be "understood" (I am making a general point here, not to this video in particular). Do you understand Dylan's lyrics?

Sometimes the purpose may be just to convey a whimsical image, an attitude or some vague allusions and let the viewers reach their conclusions.

Good art, in my view, is always a little ambiguous so that the artist doesn't appear to shove a message down your throat and it leaves room for the imagination. There is more to an artist work that the "message"

"Post Modernism" is disastrous for science, but it does make sense in the arts,

I think Mark Smith hit the nail on the head in message #52

939. Beware the Believers

Comment #151700 by Bonzai on March 29, 2008 at 8:23 am

--but one of the things that convinced me was the "machine" which is, as others have already pointed out, nothing but the wonderful, incredible, ever-moving, and awe-inspiring Scientific Method.

I don't know. I think the image of the machine is ominous, sinister and foreboding and it has a money sign hanging on it. It tramples everything ruthlessly under its feet, flatten everything wherever it goes.

I wouldn't find it a very flattering representation of the scientific method, let alone "wonderful".

Remember in the beginning the guy was saying to his colleague he saw something other than natural selection,--no mention of ID,-- the colleague reported him in the secretive way that people turn in their friends to secrete police in totalitarian countries, The machine showed up and "expelled" the victim. I don't think that conveys the scientific method at work, but rather the impression of a dark enforcer.

940. Beware the Believers

Comment #151687 by Bonzai on March 29, 2008 at 7:54 am

Richard Dawkins,

If anyone can understand a single word of this, don't bother to translate, just tell me whose side it's on. I get the feeling (same with South Park) that there are people out there who assume that something that is obviously MEANT to be funny therefore must BE funny, and they immediately shower it with accolades such as "Wow", "Hilarious", "Awesome" and, most side-splitting of all, "LOL".

Sorry to say this, Richard, stop being so puffed up and taking yourself so seriously. Having a little fun won't hurt. :)

Whichever side it is on, it is well made, clever and very funny.

941. Beware the Believers

Comment #151668 by Bonzai on March 29, 2008 at 7:01 am

Who cares whether it is "pro science"? It is fun and ingenious.


P.S. But I don't think it is on "our side" though, seriously, I don't know how some of you could think it is.

942. 'We Make Our Own Heaven'

Comment #151540 by Bonzai on March 29, 2008 at 12:32 am

So no dealing with schoolchildren, which is the issue here. Well, I have friends who DO teach kids at school, and I know what they achieve.

I have a friend who is an award winning highschool teacher,--in fact a friend of my highschool teacher,--he said very much the same thing about curricula, it is bull shit. He also said teacher's
college is a waste of time, Teacher's colleges are designed by the same arm chair "experts" in "education".

I have another friend who worked with very young children,--primary school students in the U.K system. He teachs them sophisticated mathematics using a novel, conceptual approach that he develops. He says the same thing about the factory schools that I said, only he is a polite sort of guy and doesn't use swear words. Why does he work with young children instead of highschoolers? He said, to work with them before they got ruined by the system.

Well, we just going to have to disagree about what teachers aims are and what they achieve

Well teachers don't call the shot. They get their orders from the ministry of education and they work under a lot of constraints, It is a wonder that some teachers can actually achieve what they do under the rigid restrictions imposed by the system. In Ontario, I was told by a teacher friend, a teacher spends the bulk of his time not on teaching, but doing paper work.

943. 'We Make Our Own Heaven'

Comment #151532 by Bonzai on March 29, 2008 at 12:14 am

Are you a course designer?

Do you mean am I an arm chair general? No, I loath the education consultants. I have been a student and I am a university instructor so I would know first hand what teaching and learning mean.

I should add that while the factory approach doesn't make educational sense it makes complete economical sense. Its goal is to produce a technically competent work force which on the other hand is docile enough not to ask too many questions. "Critical thinking" is not a primary goal for a system whose main function is to produce workers and consumers. Too much "critical thinking" is bad for the economy, you need just enough.

944. 'We Make Our Own Heaven'

Comment #151524 by Bonzai on March 28, 2008 at 11:55 pm

I am beginning to lose track of what your point is. You started by claiming that children couldn't be taught "critical thinking". Then you moved to claiming that they weren't being taught critical thinking. Now you seem to be saying that they musn't be taught critical thinking!

You lost track because you didn't read my first post where I stated what I meant by it cannot be "taught" and how a genuine education should "nurture" children to develop those skills.

I am sorry, it seems that you do have the habit of cutting and pasting randomly from a post and ignoring the rest. Just an observation.

Socrates didn't "teach" critical thinking, he motivated people to ask questions, provoked them to think for themselves.

The reason you suddenly need "thinking skill development" is that the entire factory system is based on the "filling up vessels" approach, teaching answers rather than motivating questions. It is based on evaluation and testing, which is a game of meeting quotas based on the false premise that learning can be precisely quantified,--a prime example of modern numerology and pesudoscience.

To do more of the same, making students to take more exams and to undergo more evaluations are not going to get you critical thinking. Richard Morgan's description of the French system actually makes a lot of sense, that would be exactly what I would have expected.

945. 'We Make Our Own Heaven'

Comment #151519 by Bonzai on March 28, 2008 at 11:37 pm

Teaching children according to a curriculum is not a factory approach.

Of course it is, with all the rigid prescriptions, goal setting and outcome evaluation spelt out as if it is a production plan.

My evidence is that this fellow taught me, and many others, about how to be critical and think for ourselves, illustrating that you were wrong to declare that this can't be taught.

You didn't answer my question, was he just a good teacher having something to share, or was he teaching according to some prescribed curriculum drawn up by some one else and test you and grade you in the end?

Are you seriously trying to say that the national curriculum of the UK is just a "mission statement"? Do you know anything about how this works? That critical thinking and reasoning ability are actually required in coursework, and are assessed?

Of course I know how it works. I didn't say it was a mission statement. I said it was a bureaucratic document with a mission statement. But how is that an evidence of anything?

Is critical thinking not required in doing course work before? Then what were they doing?

946. 'We Make Our Own Heaven'

Comment #151517 by Bonzai on March 28, 2008 at 11:28 pm

The most basic premise in the current thinking skills movement is the notion that students CAN learn to think better if schools concentrate on teaching them HOW to do so

The "thinking skill movement"? My bull shit detector is in full alert mode whenever I hear buzz words like this, I can't help but think it is yet another atrocious invention of the consulting industry. Now think skill is a new "movement", you wonder what they have been doing all the while.

It is a sad testimony of the state of education if you need a separate course to teach "critical thinking". One wonders what the hell are people doing in other subjects.

947. 'We Make Our Own Heaven'

Comment #151513 by Bonzai on March 28, 2008 at 11:17 pm

When I say that my memories of my childhood were clear, and I was indeed taught critical thinking, you declare, based on no evidence, that this must have been some kind of fluke.

Was he following some curriculum? Were you tested on that material? If not, then it is not any evidence for the factory approach that you are endorsing here.

Your opinion about what is and isn't taught in schools seems to be irrelevant when we can actually look at the evidence - the UK teaching guidelines snd curriculum.

How is a bureaucratic document with what amount to a mission statement an evidence of anything?

It is evidence that U.K's students would be writing one more exam, as if it is not enough already to have to do all the subjects already on O and A level.

Where does it stop? Do we need to teach common sense in school and test students on it?

948. 'We Make Our Own Heaven'

Comment #151494 by Bonzai on March 28, 2008 at 8:56 pm

Frankus,

Sounds like you are a good teacher. There is a saying, I don't remember by whom (Yeats?) and the exact words, which basically says that teaching is not filling a vessel, but to light a fire. I am sure a good mentor, who takes an interest in the subject and the student, would be a great source of inspiration for young people. But I don't believe in syllabus with well set out goals, evaluations and expected outcome, this is bureaucratic bull shit. Teaching is not a factory operation.

Now it is all about teaching answers without the students even knowing what the questions are, like filling of the vessel and there is a huge obsession over grades and exams.

I taught mathematics (calculus) briefly in Ontario (a few years ago), It was painful to have to teach according to the curriculum, which was clearly drawn up by idiots. The is no internal cohesion, no central narrative, no clue. The material is chopped up into units to be covered according to a specific schedule so that students can be tested and evaluated.

It is no wonder Mitchell Gilks says he can't learn mathematics. Any intelligent student would be bored out of his skull and would ask the obvious question, "what is the fucking point?"

949. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #151485 by Bonzai on March 28, 2008 at 8:25 pm

Besides, social Darwinism "selects" the guy who makes most money, not the person who have most kids, There you go, it is not natural selection.

950. 'We Make Our Own Heaven'

Comment #151479 by Bonzai on March 28, 2008 at 8:09 pm

Steve,

I do remember being a child, and I remember a particular teacher, indeed a particular lesson that had a dramatic impact on me. When I was a young teenager an English teacher showed us a documentary that turned out to be an advert. We were introduced to the idea of being suspicious of things presented in easy soundbites, and of carefully packaged views. We were taught to think critically.

Well good for you. But I bet that was his special treat. He was not following some syllabus developed by the bureaucrats from the ministry of education so that you could be graded and tested on the material,

I can't say I remember any teacher or figure of authority who had "taught" me how to think critically and be an argumentative asshole,

As a child I always had a lot of questions. Adults usually ignored me so I was left thinking on my own. My mother told me that when I was 6 or 7, we went to Church and after the sermon, I asked, "how did the guy know all these stuffs, was he there with God?" Now after having lived in a house with small children I don't think I was that unique. Children question, they don't need to be "taught".

My parents' attitude towards my mental development was benign neglect. All they cared about was that I did well in school, other than that I was free to read whatever I could get my hands on, I never expected or received any advice from them, but they didn't force me to believe or think in any set way either. I was free to explore, more or less on my own. In retrospect they were very young and inexperienced and always too busy for work. But actually I am quite thankful for that.

When I went to highschool, I met some like minded friends, we greedily devoured books on philosophy, history and literature and would spend long hours on discussions and debates. We did that all by ourselves without any advice or guidance from adults.

What could the teachers have taught us anyway? They were all burnt out, comfortable with their habits and conventions. We were only too happy to be left alone. I would have hated it if we had to take courses on "critical thinking" and be graded by people who weren't that good in that themselves!