51. Interview with BHA President Polly Toynbee

Comment #68125 by heathen2 on September 6, 2007 at 7:56 am

Regarding Comment #68107 by fides_et_ratio, please look at the history of the lack of tolerance by the catholic church and you will see a big difference. How absurd to compare humanist principles with religious ones.

I think the last three words from the Vatican council quote you provided says it all: "within due limits". In practice, these negate the tolerance of the words that preceed ("that no one is to be forced to act in a manner contrary to his own beliefs, whether privately or publicly, whether alone or in association with others").

52. Mother Teresa's '40-year faith crisis'

Comment #66773 by heathen2 on August 31, 2007 at 9:58 am

lane,

I have a close, dear friend who is a born again very devout Christian. We discuss, but have agreed to disagree, about religion, politics and some social issues.

A few years back, she told me how sorry she felt for me because I did not have the comfort of knowing that my kids would go to heaven when they pass from this life (she has the magnamity to believe that even my little heathens will go to heaven). There was no time for discussion at that time, but I started thinking about what her faith provided most for her is comfort, because even for her it did not make sense at a logical level. She is a smart and capable person, and yet so dependent on her god and religious guidance from those she considers her superiors (church leaders). I think that is what bothers me most - the sacrificing of truth for the sake of personal comfort.

As to your relinquishing attachment to the outcome of the your business dealings to god, that sort of philosphy is nothing new and can be achieved without reliance on a higher power. It is a great way to achieve stress relief.

53. Orthodox Call on Sinners To Give Chickens a Fairer Shake

Comment #66744 by heathen2 on August 31, 2007 at 7:46 am

Reading about ridiculous rituals such as this one just intensifies my abhorrence for religion and its practices. I feel like I'm being a grumpy grouch when I don't want to participate in some that are fairly benign from my culture of origin, but that invoke gods and prayer (no animal slaughter involved).

Should I just go along to please my mom?

54. Christopher Hitchens and Bill Donohue on Mother Teresa

Comment #66739 by heathen2 on August 31, 2007 at 7:15 am

scooternyc,

The following makes complete sense to me:

I often make the statement on other "pro religious" sites that:

If your religion or belief in god is making you do the things you do, then you lack the natural and innate humanity that drives others to do good deeds without those precepts. As such, your behavior is fraudulent, to yourselves and to your all-knowing god, as he would know that you're only doing it because you seek reward or favor, not for the good of mankind.

55. Mother Teresa's '40-year faith crisis'

Comment #66635 by heathen2 on August 30, 2007 at 5:33 pm

lane,

I appreciate that you were able to share your difficult experiences and the way you felt that faith in your god restored the positives in your life.

On a certain level I can understand it, but the way you obliterate your sense of "self" and defer to your diety is very difficult for me (and I would guess to others on this site).

You see god in your life as someting of a father figure. But it seems to me to be a very childish view of a father (one who must be obeyed, one who has reasons for doing things we cannot understand, one who watches over us). When people grow up and have a mature and healthy relationship with their father, it's not like that at all. I feel bad for you that you must cling to this type of father figure, because as others here have noted, you had enough strength of mind to turn your life around.

Another thing I noticed in your posts was the insinuations (especially to the younger posters) that greater wisdom brings one to religious belief. That sort of attitude (which I mostly get from Christians) is really offensive. I hope that I misunderstood you.

56. Christopher Hitchens and Bill Donohue on Mother Teresa

Comment #66628 by heathen2 on August 30, 2007 at 4:50 pm

Hitchens said an exorcism was performed on MT. Okay, now I sort of feel sorry for her. Sounds like she was trapped in her "marriage" (with Jesus) and that he was a rather neglectful husband.

57. Christopher Hitchens and Bill Donohue on Mother Teresa

Comment #66377 by heathen2 on August 29, 2007 at 9:07 pm

Isn't Bill Donohue the same guy from the catholic league that was interviewed on Penn and Teller's Bullshit! episode abour Mother Teresa? Seems like I've seen him on some show.

And the whole thing about nuns being "brides of christ" is just gross, sick and twisted.

58. 'Jesus loves you' email

Comment #66177 by heathen2 on August 29, 2007 at 7:33 am

I sure wish I could go, but it's a long trip and too many prior committments. I'm so jealous of all of you who are going. I'm sure we will hear interesting reports when you all get back.

By the way, I saw the documentary called "Godless in America" about the American Atheists and Madalyn Murray O'Hair. Interesting perspective on atheists (that we are just normal, nice people - we don't bite). Why is that such a shock to the "Godfull"?

59. Fallen Pastor Seeks Aid to Pursue Studies

Comment #66068 by heathen2 on August 28, 2007 at 8:20 am

Oh Great Scott. If Ted Haggard is EVER identified as a Psychologist, my profession is doomed. Luckily, our ethics code prevents any psychologist from introducing religion into any treatment where it is not explicitly requested.

60. Fallen Pastor Seeks Aid to Pursue Studies

Comment #66067 by heathen2 on August 28, 2007 at 7:40 am

Maybe Pastor Ted Ignoramus should study history instead of psychology. Then he would understand what the reference to the Nuremberg rally meant when Richard referred to it in the The Root of all Evil interview.

61. Mother Teresa's '40-year faith crisis'

Comment #65766 by heathen2 on August 26, 2007 at 11:47 am

This is good stuff! Something about MT did not sit well with me for years, all her righteousness and piety and they way so many people (including my mom) worshipped her was annoying. Until I heard about Hitchens' criticisms, I too assumed that her work with the poor was beyond reproach.

The sainthood stuff is just pure idiocy. How even people of faith can tolerate searching for miracles toward granting sainthood is beyond me.

It makes sense (in the religious mind) to take her latest confessions and twist them to make a case for sainthood, that's what they do. The religious are able to take overwhelming evidence against their position and turn it around into something that supports their position, at least in their minds. And they seem to get away with it. I'm with AtheistAttorney, it's hard not to get really mad.

62. CNN Request for 'I-Reports' on religion

Comment #65751 by heathen2 on August 26, 2007 at 9:54 am

Religious faith is wastefully useless at its best and dangerously deluded at its worst.

63. Rational Atheism

Comment #64838 by heathen2 on August 22, 2007 at 3:29 am

If "new atheism" is truly a movement, then we need the "militancy" of Messrs. Dawkins, Dennett, Harris and Hitchens to pave the way for the "rational" brand of atheism that Shermer suggests.

I, like others here, take exception to the term militant however. Theists are alarmed at the disrespect for their silly beliefs, so they label it "militant" in order to put a negative spin on valid criticism.

And please, Mr. Shermer, you do an injustice when you level the charge of "militant" against Dawkins. How many books has he written extolling the beauty of the natural world and promoting science? I think he has more than done his part in educating the public about science.

64. A Matter of Faith

Comment #64789 by heathen2 on August 21, 2007 at 9:49 pm

I saw Prothero on the Daily Show (if I'm remembering correctly) and he was talking about the book of his.

It is true that Americans know very little about religion, in a real sense, such as comparative religions and a history of religious thought. Especially Christians, who rely on a personal relationship with their god and feel they have no need for any other knowledge. That seems to be part of the problem.

The other stuff that Prothero said though, about all the great stuff that flows from religion and evil atheistic Stalinistic regimes is pure bullshit.

65. Bill Maher Making New Documentary Movie, 'Religulous'

Comment #64787 by heathen2 on August 21, 2007 at 9:39 pm

Comment #64584 by CruciFiction on August 20, 2007 at 8:00 pm
So I'd bet during the entire six hour documentary she won't even hint that there's an alternative to the divisiveness and violence of god delusion.

66. A Matter of Faith

Comment #64749 by heathen2 on August 21, 2007 at 3:50 pm

Having read about Madalyn Murray-O'Hair, i might back up a little from uber-cool and say "fascinating character" instead.

67. A Matter of Faith

Comment #64747 by heathen2 on August 21, 2007 at 3:43 pm

Crazymalc,

Check out "All the Questions You ever Wanted to Ask American Atheists" (1983) By Jon Murray (her son) and Madalyn Murray O'Hair. It is published by American Atheist Press.

I read through it recently. She was very straight forward and explains the philosophy of atheism in a way that everyone can understand. She was very hated and vilified, people considered her strident and shrill in her criticism. As Dawkins is sometimes characterized. I think even more so because of her gender.

Also, her life events are interesting and her death (along with her family members), bizarre and sad.

68. Richard Dawkins and Alister McGrath

Comment #64551 by heathen2 on August 20, 2007 at 4:46 pm

Friends (ha!) of ours recently said that they would abort a Downs baby (their words) because "we deserve better than that".

69. Sikh girl will convert for a place at Catholic school

Comment #64512 by heathen2 on August 20, 2007 at 10:50 am

If the only reason they want her to go to this school is because "she is upset and wants to remain with her friends" then that is weak parenting.

I couldn't disagree more strongly.

70. Sikh girl will convert for a place at Catholic school

Comment #64459 by heathen2 on August 20, 2007 at 6:04 am

The title of this article should have been "Sikh girl will be converted by her parents for a place at Catholic school". Not enough room for that I suppose.

71. Good luck, Dawkins!

Comment #64199 by heathen2 on August 18, 2007 at 3:28 pm

I asked my kids about their perception of the Santa/Easter bunny/Tooth Fairy as they were growing up. They said they wised up to it at about 6 or 7 years old as they started to reason and figure out the inconsistencies in the stories. The details of the stories just did not mesh with reality.

72. Interview with Richard Dawkins

Comment #63839 by heathen2 on August 16, 2007 at 11:53 am

Comment #63761 by _J_ on August 15, 2007 at 5:04 pm

I too have enjoyed your thoughts and wit on this site. As well as that of many others. It is good to have the support. Addictive, yes. It helps me cope.

73. Good luck, Dawkins!

Comment #63833 by heathen2 on August 16, 2007 at 11:06 am

sane1,
We actually allowed the Santa Claus, Easter Bunny and Tooth Fairy myths while they were young. But we also encouraged and promoted judgement, critical thinking, scepticism and that they evaluate ideas for themselves. We discuss and critique belief systems and value evidence. My kids are freethinkers also, I am happy to say.

I understand what you mean though, and as much as I love the santa myth especially, if I had to do it all over again, I'm not sure that I would promote the myths. It is telling lies.

74. Good luck, Dawkins!

Comment #63826 by heathen2 on August 16, 2007 at 10:30 am

And when we read a fantasy book, I didn't have to explain often, that no, such and such are not "real."

75. India's Internal Partition

Comment #63822 by heathen2 on August 16, 2007 at 10:15 am

I am saddened by the Hindu-Muslim conflicts that just go on and on in India. In some part this is due to the fact that the culture is mired in superstition of one kind or the other. At least though it is not a theocracy like Pakistan.

76. Good luck, Dawkins!

Comment #63820 by heathen2 on August 16, 2007 at 10:07 am

It's amazing how unpopular you become by trying to tell the truth, and how little effect experiments and evidence have on the exploitative and money-making New Age world. So good luck, Richard! I hope you won't get too depressed by it all.

77. Atheists and believers have got religion wrong

Comment #63655 by heathen2 on August 15, 2007 at 8:40 am

It seems from his comments that Mr. Steel himself is "smug and superior" in his attitude toward believers.

78. The new preface to The God Delusion paperback and Q&A

Comment #62810 by heathen2 on August 11, 2007 at 3:16 pm

Everywhere there is Christianity we see hypocrisy, because Christianity does not fit the nature of human beings. Islam accepts human beings as they actually are, and gives us laws that lead to peace and brotherhood.

79. The new preface to The God Delusion paperback and Q&A

Comment #62681 by heathen2 on August 10, 2007 at 8:59 pm

Regarding the last post, #137, What is the (AS) supposed to stand for?

80. Interview with Michael Behe

Comment #62217 by heathen2 on August 8, 2007 at 9:04 pm

Comment #61719 by Quetzalcoatl on August 6, 2007 at 1:45 pm

For the love of all that is good in the world, Heathen2, what are you DOING? To read your post I had to put my hand over the avatar! Please, think of the children!

81. New age therapies cause 'retreat from reason'

Comment #61875 by heathen2 on August 7, 2007 at 8:27 am

And "two inches in diameter"!?!

I knew they were big assholes, butt(!) I had no idea.

82. God in the Military - The Pentagon and its Christian Embassy

Comment #61873 by heathen2 on August 7, 2007 at 8:18 am

It's funny when the nutjobs talk about spreading the word to the foreign embassies and ambassadors (the REAL ones) through the pretext of social gatherings. Unless the embassy people are already christian, they won't get anywhere as people of other faiths from other countries are already sick and tired of generations of christian "ministry". They are used to christians invading their own countries trying to convert them.

Christian "embassy" is so wrong on so many levels. The incidents that Lou Dobbs mentioned have been since Bush came into office. He seems to have brought a christian culture and flavor (fishy and loafy?) to the WH. Hopefully when Bush leaves office, this movement will be gone too.

83. Does the Bible have a place in public schools?

Comment #61791 by heathen2 on August 6, 2007 at 10:32 pm

I attended junior high and high school both here in the States and in several other countries. When I make the comparison between them, there is an appalling lack in courses offering world literature and history. Yet we learned US history over and over again. No wonder most people consider history boring.

Things haven't changed for the better from what I see in my kids' school courses. I think it would be more helpful to address that before they go higher level with the bible in literature. And I agree with others who mentioned how having the bible in schools is fraught with problems.

On the other hand, in my daughter's sixth grade history class, they taught Greek mythology. This would have been a good time to bring up and discuss god/s of various religions and their fictitious nature. However the bible would be inappropriate in the sixth grade due all the sex and violence.

84. Does the Bible have a place in public schools?

Comment #61750 by heathen2 on August 6, 2007 at 6:12 pm

Why not leave this for college. There is so much real education that students miss out on that this is not necessary at the high school level.

Also, in our multi cultural, multireligious society, people will start asking how about the "Book of Mormon as Literature" or "Koran as Literature" or The Bhagavad Gita as Literature" courses, where are those? As I said, that stuff is available in college.

85. New age therapies cause 'retreat from reason'

Comment #61738 by heathen2 on August 6, 2007 at 3:29 pm

Getting back to the original topic, it seems inevitable that irrationality in myriad forms will continue to exist and "evolve". Of course there is no way to eradicate all of it, but we can work to reduce its power significantly.

It is worth the good fight to attack all of it though, not just religion and belief in god, because otherwise some other derivation (such as new age mumbo jumbo) of irrationality will eclipse religion. It seems like the new age stuff is a weaker form of belief than most types of religious belief, so the shift has already been happening. I have read that the religious resurgence is an expression of its decline since the population as a whole is becoming more agnostic/atheistic. Certainly hope that is true.

86. New age therapies cause 'retreat from reason'

Comment #61736 by heathen2 on August 6, 2007 at 3:13 pm

Dr. Benway, who is that lady with the dog on your new avatar?

87. New age therapies cause 'retreat from reason'

Comment #61711 by heathen2 on August 6, 2007 at 1:13 pm

This is so silly but I can't stop laughing whenever I look at the googly eyes staring back from the messages. Weird and juvenile sense of humor I guess. Professor Dawkins, if he visits, will realize just how silly we are and just shake his head sadly.

88. Interview with Michael Behe

Comment #61697 by heathen2 on August 6, 2007 at 11:53 am

The disclaimer from LeHigh is interesting. I guess they have to keep him on due to tenure? Or maybe he can't be let go just due to "personal views" even though I imagine those impact what he teaches. Propagating lies in the academic environment is wrong but I don't know what he actually teaches his students.

Like Tumara, I too am disturbed by his composure and confidence in the face of all the lashings he has recieved. He must be getting positive reinforcement from some quarters, I suppose, in order to keep going. What a joke he is, and does not even realize it.

89. New age therapies cause 'retreat from reason'

Comment #61693 by heathen2 on August 6, 2007 at 11:22 am

I guess today is "smile like a psychic day."

90. New age therapies cause 'retreat from reason'

Comment #61691 by heathen2 on August 6, 2007 at 11:06 am

Dr Benway,

When is "smile like a psychic day"? I was not aware of that as it is not on my calendar. I'll have to take the day off of course to properly celebrate.

91. New age therapies cause 'retreat from reason'

Comment #61686 by heathen2 on August 6, 2007 at 10:54 am

Ok Yorker, that is really creepy (and funny) having that lady's face for your image. Is she the smile faith healer?

"Smile your very best smile, swallow the smile with some saliva into the heart and let the heart smile back at you...

Gross. With a smile like hers, I'd be worried about doing that. That was mean, I know.

92. The Flea Circus Invites a Newcomer!

Comment #60598 by heathen2 on August 2, 2007 at 11:34 am

the_assayer: Nice summing up of the morality/ethics position. You're right, it's so obvious already, and tiresome to have to repeat what ought to be recognized as the "default", that the capacity of moral behavior is basic to human (and possibly other animal) nature.

And I would add to your last point about ideas of right and wrong predating christianity, that these existed also in the realm of philosophy (such as ancient Greek)in addition to the ancient religions that you cited.

93. The Flea Circus Invites a Newcomer!

Comment #60589 by heathen2 on August 2, 2007 at 11:01 am

Can you (or anyone) please tell me how to block quote?

94. The Flea Circus Invites a Newcomer!

Comment #60582 by heathen2 on August 2, 2007 at 10:29 am

Thanks _J_ for the youtube video link of David Robertson's little talk. That was interesting.

It was funny how he asks us all to "think" then follows it up with asking us to pray in order to let jesus or god or whoever in. The thinking part I already do, so don't insult me by being so condescending as to imply that I and most other agnostics and atheist don't think for ourselves. In fact, it is my religious friends that really need to put on their thinking caps. The call to prayer at the end is equally condescending and insulting.

(by the way, I'm a devotee, in equal parts, of the sun and the great god quetz. Q has accepted me despite my polytheistic heresy, thank you lord Q!)

95. Christians disrupt Hindu Prayer at Senate Invocation

Comment #60021 by heathen2 on July 31, 2007 at 1:43 pm

Hinduism believes in one God. Their anger is founded on false views.

96. God-Fearing People: Why are we so scared of offending Muslims?

Comment #60013 by heathen2 on July 31, 2007 at 12:42 pm

I know some people of the Muslim faith (they were born into it at least) who are well educated, bright, liberal and tolerant. I have the greatest respect for them. They are from my parents' generation. I am sure they are atheists, but they would never say as much, yelling about their beliefs is just not their way, as with most atheists. I wish they would speak out, but I would fear for their safety at the same time.

97. God-Fearing People: Why are we so scared of offending Muslims?

Comment #60007 by heathen2 on July 31, 2007 at 12:16 pm

Thank you Christopher Hitchens for your assault on the coercive and threatening Islamic position. If there are so many moderate and peaceful Muslims, why don't they speak out against the hate and violence perpertrated by the extremists? Because they are afraid too. For their lives.

98. Beyond Belief: Atheism (with AC Grayling)

Comment #59992 by heathen2 on July 31, 2007 at 11:31 am

A few months back, I heard Dawkins and Collins on NPR. Dawkins talked about TGD then the next day they aired the "other viewpoint" I suppose, by Collins entitled The Language of god".

Collins apparently grew up in a liberal household without religion. He was an atheist (like McGrath) and explains how he came to religion as a doctor (that was his starting point at least). It does not make sense. It is even hard to listen to, because it is painful to hear a man of science and education submit himself to such simple mindedness and degradation. And his religion is degrading to the human spirit.

Professor Dawkins, on the other hand, gave a wonderful interview that was clear, eloquent, responsive to the callers. What a huge difference from the views Collins explicated.

99. Come Out!

Comment #59703 by heathen2 on July 30, 2007 at 10:10 am

dlitt:

I really like the first slogan. I could actually see myself wearing that one because it makes a point humorously, is not in your face offensive but has an anti religion message.

The second one, I don't know about, I just know I could not wear it. You're right it is mean, but I'm glad that people were able to see the humor in it. Here in the States, I'm guessing not so much.

What I find irritating also (I guess alot of religious stuff bothers me these days that I just shrugged off before) is how people wear large crosses and religious jewelery in work settings and it is no big deal, but if I were to wear, say, a necklace with cross crossed out symbol I would hear alot about it I suspect. I know, it is supposedly negative instead of positive. I would never do that though because I think it is inappropriate to wear that at work. A few weeks ago, one guy was wearing a t-shirt to my work that advertised his church and also had the word "god" on it.

100. Come Out!

Comment #59532 by heathen2 on July 29, 2007 at 11:54 am

Comment #59497 by gcdavis on July 29, 2007 at 9:00 am

I have just re-read P Z Myers comments at the top of this thread, and I am struck by arrogance and condescension that are bordering on the papal