51. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #171496 by Elli on April 28, 2008 at 2:22 pm

Dick, atheism is nothing more then the proposition that god(s)=exist has not been proven, and until any evidence can be presented to the contrary, the assumption must remain god(s)<> exist. It makes no other claims, including not making any claims about the requisite thoroughness of research.

52. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #171484 by Elli on April 28, 2008 at 2:15 pm

Firstly, Dick - it was 600 thousand at Sinai, not 6 million. You are confusing the Holocaust.

Secondly, try positing a thought on the conflicts I raised. Use your own intellect - don't just defer to an argument from authority.

I was not posting that website as an example of a peer reviewed publication. I was being lazy and didn't want to write out some of the issues that are raised by the disingenuous misinterpretation of the word "yom". But I wrote out 2 of them anyway, above. How about addressing those ideas.

Of course it does not represent the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church. And why should it? - are you suggesting that whatever the RCC says must be truth purely on the basis that it is the RCC that is saying so? That sounds more like arrogance to me... don't you think?

53. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #171477 by Elli on April 28, 2008 at 2:09 pm

Ok Dick, then be sure to ask your Rabbi about the following:

If a day means more than 24-hour period, then how are we to interpret the following verses, as well as scores of others. "Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath.... in it thou shalt not work.... For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth...and rested the seventh day" (Ex. 20:9-11)

Adam was made on the sixth day (Gen. 1:26, 31), which was supposedly thousand of years long [Elli: millions?]. This was followed by the 7th day which was also thousands of years long [Elli: millions?]. Following the 7th day, Adam fell into sin and was expelled from the Garden. This would mean Adam lived thousands [Elli: millions?] of years, which is false, since he died at age 930 (Gen. 5:5).

54. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #171471 by Elli on April 28, 2008 at 2:02 pm

Dick, I don't claim to have a deep knowledge - just that I studied biblical Hebrew at school. In any event, I am suggesting that you don't take my word for it, and I suggest that you don't take a Rabbi's word for it. What I suggest you do is go and conduct proper scientific/academic research into the matter for yourself - or at the very least, read up on people who have done such research and produced legitimate publications, properly referenced and so forth.

Anyway, this webpage raises good refutation of the day=era concept:
http://members.aol.com/ckbloomfld/bepart16.html

55. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #171458 by Elli on April 28, 2008 at 1:53 pm

I second Quine. Nothing beats doing your own research. One should never use the argument from authority. "An important guy once told me that..." is just a really bad way to gain knowledge.

56. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #171440 by Elli on April 28, 2008 at 1:42 pm

Max, I do remember discussions at school about the usage of the word "elohim" which takes a plural form for god "el", but if my memory serves me correctly it is consistently not used in a plural context - or something like that. Anyway, errors in the bible are not exactly newsworthy discoveries, given their frequency. In regards to that particular verse "let us make man in our image" I believe the very next verse goes something like "and god made man in his image". Who knows, maybe god was using the "royal we"? - again, these pedantic textual issues are vastly overshadowed by the more glaring inaccuracies and immoral aspects of the bible.

57. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #171395 by Elli on April 28, 2008 at 1:21 pm

That's my point Dick: I have spoken to many a Rabbi about this. Only the least sophisticated run with an argument that "yom" in genesis meant something different to what it meant every other time the word was used. And they only use that argument with youngsters: it doesn't do much to solve the other gigantic scientific problems in the biblical genesis account.

Anyway, I thoroughly recommend not taking things as true because they are told to you by religious ministers. I recommend doing your own critical research into things. Not only will it bear more fruitful and accurate results but it is a very rewarding process.

58. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #171380 by Elli on April 28, 2008 at 1:13 pm

In any event, even if one was to accept (for the sake of argument alone) that "yom" in genesis actually meant "some enormous span of time" it still does little to make the genesis account much more credible or scientifically plausible. This argument is the sort of thing they teach you at pre-school when a kid questions genesis. Trust me, I went to a Jewish pre-school and can speak from actual experience on this. It is amongst the least sophisticated arguments imaginable.

Anyway, this reminds me of Ricky Gervais' reading of genesis - one of my favourite stand up bits of all time... "in the dark!" :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yixAOfyAXoY

59. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #171359 by Elli on April 28, 2008 at 12:59 pm

Dick, as it happens I am Jewish and a scholar of the Hebrew language (at least, I studied it for 14 years, including ancient Hebrew, although not at a University level). "Yom" does not mean era or age or stage. It means day. Sunset to sunset. It is used consistently in this context throughout all historical Hebrew documents.

In case you are wondering, my name is one of the great ironies about me, given I am an atheist. For those wondering, it means "my god".

60. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #171343 by Elli on April 28, 2008 at 12:50 pm

Whilst I do not personally respect any flag, nor do I see any reason to arbitrarily exalt symbols of any kind, I do recognize that many people do find certain symbols important to them, whether for rational reasons or otherwise, and I personally would respect that. For example, I wouldn't personally photograph myself in sexual congress with a baby jesus, nor would I photograph myself defecating on a photograph of Martin Luther King. I would consider that this would likely be very offensive to many people, and therefore not the kind of free speech I personally want to engage in. Although I hasten to add that I would most certainly fight with my life for the right of anyone to express themselves in such a way if they so choose to do so. And we must also recognise that many people have a different opinion on what it means to express themselves with pride in regards to their country of origin (or country of residence). The lovely gentleman lying on Carto's flag may have felt full of love and honour for his country whilst in that pose. To him, it may have been the ultimate expression of patriotism. Far be it from I to judge how someone should or should not express their love for their country - or indeed their derision. Part of being a valuable member of a democracy is knowing the importance of protest.

61. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #171318 by Elli on April 28, 2008 at 12:30 pm

Dick, it was a serious question. I am sincerely fascinated as to whether it is indeed possible to reconcile the facts of evolution with a belief in an interventionist god (I use the word interventionist to distinguish here from a god which merely sets the universe starting with its physical laws and sits on her hands). For what it is worth, I think it is impossible to reconcile the two. So I would be interested to know how you do so. Perhaps you could sway my mind.

62. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #171238 by Elli on April 28, 2008 at 11:39 am

Dick,

how do you reconcile your belief in a judeo-islamic-christian god with your understanding of evolution? Or are you a deist?

63. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #171217 by Elli on April 28, 2008 at 11:23 am

Dick: "There are no atheists in foxholes"

64. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #169594 by Elli on April 26, 2008 at 11:33 am

Remnant said:

Anyway, one of the big sticking points for these secular scientists is the something from nothing thingy. They have to find a way around this at all costs. Anything goes as long as it is not associated with God. They have to find a way for something to begin to exist from nothing.

65. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #169137 by Elli on April 25, 2008 at 2:57 pm

Rev Dark - I want that parrot !!
That was brilliant.

Remnant: Flood?

66. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #169125 by Elli on April 25, 2008 at 2:53 pm

Stuart Paul Wood just became my favourite person.

67. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #169096 by Elli on April 25, 2008 at 2:43 pm

Quetz said: Elli-
you should be flattered that he's picked you out to be insulted. You must be getting to him.

68. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #169061 by Elli on April 25, 2008 at 2:30 pm

4471. Comment #169037 by TheTruthID on April 25, 2008 at 2:22 pm:

Hey Elli,
Nice prom picture. You must of been Home Coming Pig.

69. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #169034 by Elli on April 25, 2008 at 2:20 pm

Very proud to be an animal. Much better then being a vegetable like Remnant.

Flood?

70. Lying for Jesus?

Comment #169001 by Elli on April 25, 2008 at 2:03 pm

Remnant, you should read those articles you cited more critically. For example, Trevor Loudon of "New Zeal" has a very different definition of "left" and "right" then is traditionally used. He defines the spectrum as being collectivism on one end and individualism on the other, from "left" to "right".

You're just revealing your own vacuousness here.

71. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #166677 by Elli on April 23, 2008 at 11:27 am

TTID: Why won't you answer Epeeist's questions?

72. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #166564 by Elli on April 23, 2008 at 9:58 am

thetruthid: if you are going to claim things are impossible, please learn how to spell the word.

Aside: what is it with fundamentalists and using all-caps? Is there some sort of syntax guide they give out in churches or something?

73. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #165908 by Elli on April 22, 2008 at 3:07 pm

chewmanfoo on April 22, 2008 at 2:29 pm: "When we all get to heaven, I'll say, "I told you so!"..."

If you are so sure heaven exists then why are you wasting all this time maintaining your life? Why do you cry at funerals? What was so wrong about the holocaust for you? - were not these people just given the chance to arrive in paradise just that much sooner... believing in a post-life heaven is nothing but a cult of death. It is a thoroughly detestable notion.

74. Open Letter to a victim of Ben Stein's lying propaganda

Comment #165292 by Elli on April 21, 2008 at 9:56 am

William Sierichs Jr., that was an excellent post by you. How anyone can attempt to claim that the anti-semitism that motivated the holocaust was from any other source then christianity is beyond me.

75. Sexpelled: No Intercourse Allowed

Comment #162906 by Elli on April 17, 2008 at 4:42 pm

Brilliant!

This is why I love this site!

76. Fleabytes

Comment #150902 by Elli on March 27, 2008 at 2:33 pm

Al, don't you mean FINRA?
"NASD" is so last season!

77. Expelled Overview

Comment #149425 by Elli on March 25, 2008 at 3:34 pm

Thanks to Josh for that review.
I shudder to think if, being in that theatre, I would have been able to keep my composure - or my blood pressure at healthy levels!

78. Fleabytes

Comment #147876 by Elli on March 21, 2008 at 1:37 pm

Comment #147872 by Artful_Dodger:

History is littered with examples. Where do you want me to start? Which failed utopia would you like me to refer you to?

79. EXPELLED!

Comment #147826 by Elli on March 21, 2008 at 11:34 am

This is from the Amused Muse blog, from one of the gentleman who was in line:

Blogger Rev. Barking Nonsequitur said...

Expelled was shown at the Mall of America multiplex.

For the record - and Kristine and I witnessed the whole thing, PZ was approached as he was in line and pulled aside by an officer and was told "Sir, we got a call from the producer that you must leave the premises". PZ was making the rounds talking to Dawkins and other Atheists in the line. He came up to Kristine and I and told us he was being kicked out. At that point the officer pulled him aside and said "Sir unless you have a ticket to see another show in this theater you are to leave immediately". PZ did not argue or anything he just said he would go and he did. He was NOT bothering anyone, just talking to friends in line. It was cowardly for Mathis not to ask PZ to leave himself.

80. I don't believe in atheists

Comment #145260 by Elli on March 17, 2008 at 12:29 pm

al-rawandi,

I must admit I had always just assumed one side of this issue was right and the other wrong. It wasn't that I chose to not think about the issues - but I don't think I was very frequently contemplating the correct data. From both sides, there is so much "information" that is spurious, deceitful, invented etc. Recently I am finding myself re-evaluating what I had previous considered to be "obviously" the case. One thing is for sure, things would be a lot more resolvable if the nut-cases from *both* sides removed themselves from the conflict (however impossible that would be). The fundamentalist Jews involved in the conflict are every bit as culpable as their Palestinian counterparts - however different their political "strategies" may appear on the surface.

81. I don't believe in atheists

Comment #145250 by Elli on March 17, 2008 at 12:04 pm

Here is the difference. Shaykh Ahmed Yassin, head of Hamas until his assassination said that all Jews who could trace ancestry to Palestine before 1948 would be allowed to stay in the Palestinian State, once Israel was destroyed.

There is not one Jewish Fundamentalist would even entertain the notion of an Arab presence in Eretz Yisroel.

82. Fleabytes

Comment #143814 by Elli on March 14, 2008 at 1:04 pm

Paula: Good to hear from you, Elli - haven't seen you around for ages!

83. Fleabytes

Comment #143670 by Elli on March 14, 2008 at 9:45 am

Paula, your story just made me emit a sullen and involuntary "aaawwwwhhhhh". I am for some reason very emotional this afternoon.

84. Bulldozers tear down giant religious teapot

Comment #138515 by Elli on March 4, 2008 at 1:12 pm

Shakes head...

85. Christopher Hitchens Debates Timothy Jackson

Comment #124104 by Elli on February 8, 2008 at 11:17 am

Jackson says that Hitchens talks of the bad parts of the Bible, but ignores the good parts. He even cites lovely passages from Leviticus (eg 19:34), and chastises Hitchens for only focusing on the "worst, vindicative, violent" aspects of Leviticus. My mind immediately turned to the following saying:

"mix 9 pounds of honey with one pound of shit and what do you get? 10 pounds of shit."

86. The Pagan Christ

Comment #95085 by Elli on December 7, 2007 at 10:26 am

Jesus had a brother James? I wonder if he ever got jealous that his father was playing favourites. I mean that's a pretty tough gig. "So James, your telling me you want to be a column builder eh? Why can't you be more like your brother... being a god not good enough for you is it?"

87. Richard Dawkins at AAI 07

Comment #86473 by Elli on November 9, 2007 at 11:02 am

It may not disprove the experience, but an understanding of how the brain can deceive us certainly changes ones perspective, for example, fi yuo cna raed tihs, yuo hvae a sgtrane mnid too. Cna yuo raed tihs? Olny 55 plepoe out of 100 can. i cdnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht I was rdanieg. The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid, aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it dseno't mtaetr in waht oerdr the ltteres in a wrod are, the olny iproamtnt tihng is taht the frsit and lsat ltteer be in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it whotuit a pboerlm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Azanmig huh? yaeh and I awlyas tghuhot slpeling was ipmorantt!

88. Jury Awards Father $11M in Funeral Case

Comment #84217 by Elli on November 1, 2007 at 12:33 pm

Realize that this is not about 1st amendment issues and the criminality or otherwise of the speech. It is a well established intentional tort. It is not the speech that is relevant but the intention to cause emotional damage. We can argue whether the elements of the tort were met, and the nexus between causation and what was reasonably foreseeable, and the appropriateness of the damages, but not about first amendment issues. Or maybe I am missing something (been a while since I studied torts).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intentional_infliction_of_emotional_distress

89. Help Counter the New Atheist Crusade to 'Evangelize' America!

Comment #79439 by Elli on October 17, 2007 at 8:59 am

Famed market researcher George Barna ominously warns Christians: "The new evangelists are atheists."

90. Do you have to read up on leprechology before disbelieving in them?

Comment #79145 by Elli on October 16, 2007 at 9:53 am

Sad.

Society really does need to teach more reason and critical thinking in schools.

91. Sam Harris seems like a nice fellow, but very confused

Comment #77403 by Elli on October 9, 2007 at 7:56 am

IanG, thank you for your brilliant post. I am in total agreement with your comments. Bravo.

92. In honour of Dan Dennett

Comment #76875 by Elli on October 7, 2007 at 2:23 pm

Some comic relief perhaps...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrShK-NVMIU

93. Atheists arise: Dawkins spreads the A-word among America's unbelievers

Comment #75327 by Elli on October 2, 2007 at 10:50 am

I think it is sometimes perceived by rational people that the jewish lobby in the US has disproportionate influence demographically speaking, but I do not personally feel it is against the interests of society as a whole. For example, the NRA is a wonderful example of disproportionate influence to the detriment of society, but the jewish lobby in the US mostly argues in favour of socially beneficial politics. let us not forget that Israel is a free democracy with a terrific record of equality to women, secular values and scientific research. It has very controversial military policy, but the society itself, and the democracy itself, is one to be admired in the region it is in. I have always felt that pro Israel is a pro secular democratic stance. Having said that, I am an issue voter, not a party voter, so I would never favour Israel as a general rule - but I typically find that the jewish lobby campaigns for good secular values - with a few exceptions. It is also fairly clear that the jewish lobby is not a religious one at all, unlike the evangelical lobby, and the influential members of this lobby are not religious at all, nor is religion a primary concern (or even a concern at all). Religious jews in the US are a tiny minority of jews with very little influence on anything outside the price of kosher gefilte fish.

Nick raises a very good counterpoint regarding the lobbies of Saudi et al, especially on the Bush governments (father and son).

Perhaps I am wrong and the US being so strongly allied with Israel is in fact due to dodgy dealings under the table by powerful jewish influences etc. But my better judgement tells me it is more to do with Israel being a society which fully represents the US ideals of freedom, equality and democracy, in a region where the US desperately needs to maintain influence for a variety of reasons, with oil likely headlining the list. But perhaps I am wrong. It would not be the first time.

94. Atheists arise: Dawkins spreads the A-word among America's unbelievers

Comment #75056 by Elli on October 1, 2007 at 1:57 pm

Northern Bright, that is how I read it too. I think Nick raises a valid point here, and I understood his reference to his foreskin to merely be an attempt to humourously point out that he has not taken umbrage with the Professor's statement out of feelings of personal offence or bias.

Nick, I try and read everything Professor Dawkins writes and also try and catch most of his spoken appearences, and I honestly can not say he ever approaches anything like a prejudice towards jews - other than the very sensible prejudice which I also hold towards the jewish religion itself - being an atheist and all that jazz. These words of his do hint at holding the incorrect position that the jews of America have control over elements of the US government (often extended to the media) - but I think this is a commonly held (albeit erroneous) position - and Professor Dawkins raised the point not to assert that he himself holds that position but to highlight the broader point that an atheist lobby could in fact have tremendous influence if it was formalised in some way. I am in New York at the moment and I watched Bill Maher on TV a while ago where he said basically the same thing - that 1 in 5 American's claim to be non believers of some sort and the vote-seeking politicians would be wiser to listen to the desires of this lobby then in fact any other minority group, be they ethnic groups or alternate sexuality groups etc. Non believers can in fact have tremendous influence on public policy if the cats can be herded in some way, so to speak.

My conclusion was it was a poor choice of analogy and not representative of Dawkins' actual opinion.

95. Mother Teresa's '40-year faith crisis'

Comment #66605 by Elli on August 30, 2007 at 3:20 pm

It was just that you spoke about your god in such paternal terms. I was wondering whether part of your faith was the desire for a surrogate father figure who will look after you, provide guidance and absolve responsibility.

Then again - I think most believer's may feel this way irrespective of their own personal familial background. Likely a big reason the church has been successful is in painting god in this way.

You should read Sam Harris' article which touches on Mother Teresa amongst other things. You may find it compelling - it certainly argues all the things I would like to say a lot better then I ever could. My gifts are in singing, not in writing...

The article: http://www.richarddawkins.net/article,1581,The-Sacrifice-of-Reason,Sam-Harris-On-Faith#66602

96. Mother Teresa's '40-year faith crisis'

Comment #66603 by Elli on August 30, 2007 at 3:12 pm

One further comment, you have referenced 'logic' a few times so does it not strike you as a logical impossibility for god to be personally interested in everyone's lives? I mean, for each victor in any scenario, there is also a loser. You are in business, so cast your mind back to first year economics, and concepts of equilibrium. Well, how do you logically rationalize a god that is interested in all of his/her creations? - is every person's gain a reward balanced by another's loss and punishment? god loves the young boy saved from the floods of New Orleans, but does god hate all the victims and their families?

I can see how sentiment can bring you to a response to this, but how does logic and reason enter into it? I propose it simply can not.

97. Mother Teresa's '40-year faith crisis'

Comment #66597 by Elli on August 30, 2007 at 2:57 pm

Lane,

Don't feel you have to answer this as it is personal, but do you mind sharing with me whether or not your father was around for you during your childhood and/or during your more desperate times you referred to earlier?

Forgive me if I am being too impetuous here. I am also of (or around) Quetz's age, so I am sometimes prone to over-assertiveness.

98. Mother Teresa's '40-year faith crisis'

Comment #66582 by Elli on August 30, 2007 at 1:56 pm

Where would I go to pick up that glory?

That is my real problem with devoting my life to this human existence. It's not meaningful enough. It all ends and then there is just nothing

99. Mother Teresa's '40-year faith crisis'

Comment #66557 by Elli on August 30, 2007 at 12:05 pm

Many people have been at the depths of despair and at the lowest point imagineable, downtrodden and out of money, friends and willpower. And many have been able to elevate themselves and their lives to great accomplishments. Many of these people have done so without any deference to the supernatural. If they can, then you could have. I see no reason why you should be any less qualified then they. In my view it strips our human dignity to credit an invisible father figure for what should be recognized as our own accomplishments.

I appreciate your courage to come on a site such as this and share your stories and feelings, however many will take umbrage at the assertion that you desire to "get others to understand it enough to act on it". It shows that Dr. Benway's observations are spot on (as usual).

100. The importance of doubt

Comment #66544 by Elli on August 30, 2007 at 11:19 am

Pwned!