51. Islam in Europe

Comment #114823 by Paine on January 23, 2008 at 1:03 am

Some very good points by Pat. But IMHO the Europeans deserve a good share of the blame for bringing this on themselves.
Firstly Islam is not new or recent. Europeans should have known what they were getting themselves into when they let hordes of fanatics settle into their societies. Instead of letting only educated and ambitious people in (like the US) they brought in the most backward villagers, hoping that they'll do the dirty work that Europeans did not want to do. Naturally those people brought their primitive practices with them.

Furthermore, most European societies are clannish and chauvinistic that look down on outsiders. This makes integration for immigrants very difficult and encourages ghettoisation.

Compare this with the Americans who are much more open and accepting of diversity. That's a big reason why American Muslims are upstanding and well-grounded rather than the canker sores that their European brethren have become.

Europe seems to have dug a deep hole for itself and must have the courage to stand up for its values in the face of faith-based threats to society.

52. Stop revisionist Christian nation House Resolution 888

Comment #114376 by Paine on January 22, 2008 at 5:38 am

SummerSeal

I wish Dick Cheny was in power

Of all the infantile ideas Ive heard......I thought you were interested in winning the war on terror, but apparently not. If you were you wouldn't think of letting a certified half-wit like Cheney anywhere near a battle plan. Cheney is no Patton. Patton knew how to win. Bush-Cheney only know how to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.
Look at Iraq and Afghanistan. More dangerous and worse off since the invasions. They should have been walkovers but those buffoons contrived to screw them up. Anyone halfway competent would never have let the jihadis get so strong. Bush only drones on and on about 'freedom' while walking hand-in-hand (literally) with Wahhabist thugs like the Saudis.

Al qaeda is stronger than ever before and Bush doesn't have the balls to do anything about it. Patton would never have gotten suckered over and over again by a two-faced scumbag like Musharraf who gives the Taliban a free reign. Musharraf knows that as long as they are around, idiots like Cheney will keep gifting him billions of dollars. Portions of which go to Al qaeda(via the ISI) and is used to blow up American troops.
Im not happy that my tax dollars are being used to fund the resurgence of bin Laden, but I guess that's what you want.

I dont know when people like you will grow up and realise that we need someone who actually wants to WIN rather than just sleep while handing victory on a platter to the terrorists.

53. Huckabee Wants A 'Faith-based' Constitution

Comment #112329 by Paine on January 16, 2008 at 9:01 pm

Obama does profess that he is a Christian

I think Obama is a prime candidate for the OUT campaign. I really suspect he's in the closet.
His parents were atheists, and he only joined that ridiculous congregation of his to get some street-cred for his social work.

The OUT campaign could definitely use a high profile politician like him.

54. Sam Harris debate with Rabbi David Wolpe

Comment #108025 by Paine on January 5, 2008 at 8:47 pm

SummerSale

Judaism does not actually make any claims about other religions, really.

Correct me if Im wrong, but looking at the Old Testament Jews are supposed to massacre non-Jews and drive them away from the Promised Land. That seems like a pretty huge claim, per se.

55. Sam Harris debate with Rabbi David Wolpe

Comment #107979 by Paine on January 5, 2008 at 6:17 pm

And now, having watched the entire video, I can finally agree with those that advocate the smackdown between Harris and D'Souza.

Why? Is there any point in debating D'souza? He spews so much nonsense that you'd take hours to refute each point.

Besides, I think the debate with Dennett showed that he doesn't need to be demolished by his opponent, he can do it all by himself. I mean, as boring as Dennett was, Dinesh still managed to make a complete jackass of himself.

There's no point in anyone serious debating Dinesh, any unknown would be up to the job.

56. Sam Harris debate with Rabbi David Wolpe

Comment #107823 by Paine on January 5, 2008 at 12:37 pm

I prefer these events, when the two sides are discussing with a referee. So much better than when D'Souza gets to speak for five minutes, throwing out countless fallacies, with no interuption from someone picking him up on each one.

Yeah, I made the point in an earlier post that moderators need to take an active role in debates. Especially when idiots like Dinesh are around.
This debate was much more entertaining because the rabbi was inherently a much nicer guy and much more open to reason and discussion. I almost felt sorry for him at the end.
I dont think the Hitchens debate will be as good because, let's face it, Hitchens style is much closer to Dinesh than Sam Harris'. Low on discussion and high on bloviation.

BTW, sam had me in splits when he brought Elvis up.

57. Sam Harris debate with Rabbi David Wolpe

Comment #107817 by Paine on January 5, 2008 at 12:24 pm

SummerSeale

Okay then, obviously we should eliminate all sporting events as well.

Why stop at sports. Have you seen any video on youtube? It could be music or wildlife, but within 30 views the comments always degenerate into abuse. Anyway, I thought it was obvious I was talking about nationalism and not sport in my original post.

epeist

Not quite wars

Actually, yes. El Salvador and Honduras went to war after a controversial football match. On the bright side, Nigeria stopped their civil war to watch Pele in an exhibition match.

58. Sam Harris debate with Rabbi David Wolpe

Comment #107780 by Paine on January 5, 2008 at 10:26 am

SummerSeale

And all our societies generally have way bigger things to worry about than red sox fans going against yankee fans in some bar during the world series, or eagles fans getting into fights with anyone else =)

Haha....you obviously haven't seen a South American football(soccer) match or an India-Pakistan cricket match! Wars have hung over the outcome of these games.

Nationalism can be just as dangerous and delusional as religion.

59. Huckabee: Guns, God and rock'n'roll

Comment #107755 by Paine on January 5, 2008 at 7:49 am

I think the US has made a huge mistake by not attacking Al-Qaeda in Pakistan. This should have been done 5 yrs ago. I cant believe people saying it's a bad idea, the only bad idea is trusting Musharraf to do anything about it.

The simple reality is, anti-terrorism has gotten a bad name because of Musharaf's dictatorial power grabs.

60. Pope's exorcist squads will wage war on Satan

Comment #104738 by Paine on December 29, 2007 at 9:53 am

Paula

To judge from that photo, they won't have to look far to find their first candidate for exorcism ...

And to judge from your photo....you are Julie Andrews!

But you're right, his photo has Hitler Youth written all over it.

61. Wisdom From The Founding Rationalists

Comment #104731 by Paine on December 29, 2007 at 9:25 am

Divineosaur

I think that the reason we argue over the intent of the forefathers is because they crafted the founding documents based on certain ideals and if we start to abandon some of the original intent for this nation then we set a precedent for the abandonment of all of it.

Right, but dont you think it's more productive to debate issues based on what would be beneficial in the here and now rather than what Jefferson or Adams might have been thinking when they wrote this-or-that.

Imagine if the debate over slavery had followed that path. The slaveowners certainly had the stronger argument based on the Founding Fathers.

It's much more cogent to argue Church-State separation on its inherent benefits to society rather than its speculated prominence in the minds of long-dead revolutionaries.

62. Wisdom From The Founding Rationalists

Comment #104642 by Paine on December 29, 2007 at 3:56 am

Don Quix

I totally agree that we should put things in context when discussing the FF. What I object to is using their supposed intentions as relevant to modern issues.

Like this whole Church-State separation issue. Both sides spend all their time arguing over what the Founding Fathers believed. That's irrelevant and a complete waste of time, IMHO.They should be saying 'never mind what the Founding Fathers thought, Church-State separation is good for us in the here and now'.

When Americans get all uppity and teary-eyed about the revolution, they are generally having an emotional reaction towards the ideas that the founders represent, not the founders themselves.

Yeah, but this poring over and parsing of their words that goes on really resembles theological cherry-picking. Like scouring Scripture for words and phrases that support your own ideas. I'd say this Founding Father Fetish resembles some latter-day form of idolatry that we'd be better off without.

63. Wisdom From The Founding Rationalists

Comment #104565 by Paine on December 28, 2007 at 7:00 pm

annabanana

I am disgusted to hear people simply dismiss the voices of reason of our Founding Fathers.

Fair enough, but I have been more than puzzled by the Founding Father Fetish that exists in this country.

Ofcourse, they were pioneers of democracy and political justice, which can never be stated enough. But it's foolish to base our arguments on modern issues on speculations of their supposed intentions.

I dont see why we can not appreciate their immense contributions while at the same time recognising that they were sexist and racist bigots. And quite hypocritical about it, too.

I know it was a different time and all that but if we are going to co-opt their assertions to decide modern issues we need to judge them by modern standards. It's that simple.

64. Survey finds most Americans believe Jesus born of virgin

Comment #102406 by Paine on December 22, 2007 at 4:13 pm

These surveys are all bullshit, anyway.
Having just identified yourself as a Christian, you're sure as hell not going to go on and deny the virgin birth, are you?

Q. Are you a Christian?
A. Yes

Q. Do you believe Jesus was the son of god?
A. Yes

Q. Do you believe he was born of a virgin?
A. Errrr...actually no, that's just a made up fable.

Even the most feckless moron is not going to say that!

65. Interview with Richard Dawkins: On Christmas

Comment #100535 by Paine on December 18, 2007 at 8:41 pm

RickM, you're completely missing the point. It should be obvious.

There is a difference between praising a god who does not exist and chanting about racism which very much DOES exist.

What will you say next? That nobody should say they are 'heartbroken' because then they are endorsing medieval superstitions about the heart being the source of emotions?

I cant believe this even has to be explained!

66. THE FOUR HORSEMEN - Available Now on DVD!

Comment #99342 by Paine on December 16, 2007 at 11:24 am

Best video on the site!

I think RD nails it on the head when he tells Christopher in hour 2 "you're confusing the fact that it will never be eradicated with whether you would want it to be eradicated. You want it to be around for you to argue and sharpen your wits"

HAHAHAHAHAHA....Got to love Hitch. He just likes to argue!

67. Interview with Christopher Hitchens

Comment #93702 by Paine on December 4, 2007 at 12:32 am

Hahahahahaha.......fading out with 'Sympathy for the Devil'. Fantastic!

Scarborough makes me smile.

68. Daniel Dennett Debates Dinesh D'Souza

Comment #93352 by Paine on December 2, 2007 at 8:02 pm

Yes, well, people who publish books on the NY Times bestseller list are presumed to be functioning at a level above the average middle school student. They're expected to be intelligent, educated, mannered, aware of the rules and capable of following them without a reminder every five minutes.

Hahahahahahaha.....after watching Dinesh, that just brings laughter. Someone should send him back to middle scool.

I'd have absolutely no trouble stepping in. 'Excuse me Mr D'souza, but the question was about Scandinavia'....or whatever else. 'Can we have an answer to that?'

I think they do this much better in Europe and the UK, where questions are directed to the moderator, who then pursues it with a speaker until he is satisfied.

69. Daniel Dennett Debates Dinesh D'Souza

Comment #93347 by Paine on December 2, 2007 at 7:23 pm

Dr Benway, I get your point about these being publicity events, but you would expect some input from the moderator.

Every middle-school kid learns this from his first debate....stick to the point and it's the moderator's job to ensure that. If things are moving too quick, he has a duty to step in and make sure that the speakers stay relevant.

70. Daniel Dennett Debates Dinesh D'Souza

Comment #93340 by Paine on December 2, 2007 at 7:01 pm

Im shocked at the 'moderator' who just sat on stage doing nothing. He had no idea where the discussion was heading, had no control over what should be done as to moderating.

Whenever Dinesh contradicted himself, every time he evaded a question, he should have jumped on him and held him to account.

71. Sunday School for Atheists

Comment #90979 by Paine on November 26, 2007 at 9:41 pm

Bri Kneisley, who sent her son Damian, 10, .......Kneisley, 26, a graduate.

Am I the only one who noticed and was bemused by this? I thought it was only condom-hating, abortion-banning, non-college-going faith-heads who started breeding at 16. ;)

Hope it's a misprint.

72. 'Muhammad' teddy teacher arrested

Comment #90973 by Paine on November 26, 2007 at 9:21 pm

Let's not get carried with all the generalisations about Muslims. I mean, the only reason these idiots do stuff like this is because they know they can get away with it.
They KNOW that they would never be prosecuted for targeting a Westerner in the name of god. It's a safe(from their view) outlet for all the abuse they've been getting for Darfur. It's not particularly religious, even.
For example, last year in Bangalore a 76-yr old actor called Rajkumar died of natural causes. Mobs of his fans went on a rampage, smashing windows, burning buses and killing the odd bystander. They shut down the city for 3 days. They said it was a 'spontaneous outpouring of grief' and anger that people 'were not mourning enough'.
Official reaction was indifferent because no politician wanted to appear unpopular and risk losing votes.
Remember, this was not some medieval hinterland but the most advanced city of the largest secular democracy in the world. Anthropologists can speculate about the causes( income gaps, class resentment etc.), but it shows that there is a lot of craziness around, and religion does not have a monopoly of it.

73. Taking Science on Faith

Comment #90470 by Paine on November 25, 2007 at 8:42 am

Who is this guy and what is his claim to fame?

I cant believe he has made such a sophomoric error. Scientists dont need to have faith that the world is rational. They just realise that universe can only be understood in terms of rational ideas. In other words, the 'rationality' of the universe is only our means of making sense of it all.

And he fails to mention, the 'rational' approach has worked pretty well so far. How much 'faith' does Davies say we need to work a TV set?

74. URGENT APPEAL: Please Help Protect Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Comment #89157 by Paine on November 19, 2007 at 10:02 pm

mmurray said:

I doubt she sees more than a few bucks from each book so can't see it adding up to four to six million a year.

Where does this figure of four to six million come from? There are hundreds of public figures with security details, I wonder if they each have to shell out that much annually.

I don't see why she has to hide in Holland or why this is a Dutch problem. She should be protected wherever she goes.

She is a Dutch citizen, and living in your home country is not really 'hiding'.
Besides, the US and UK have done a decent job of protecting Salman Rushdie all these years, despite the additional state-sponsored bounty on his head. Why cant they do the same for her?

Personally I don't see the argument that she is somehow obliged to spend her life improving the lot of Muslim women just because of an accident of birth.

Well, she has been portrayed as "the most prominent advocate of free speech and women's rights in the Muslim world". (Sam's words) Given that she has not been part of the Muslim world for almost 2 decades, I seriously doubt she has any impact over there.( Im eager for evidence to the contrary, but have not found any yet)
This is not to detract from her heroism, but there is a difference between living courageously and making progress on the ground. From the latter point of view, she is quite ineffectual by sitting in the US.

75. URGENT APPEAL: Please Help Protect Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Comment #89104 by Paine on November 19, 2007 at 6:00 pm

Josh, you keep a wonderful site and I cant thank you enough for all the fantastic work you do here. But, with all due respect, I think you should get off your high horse in this case and not be taken in by her pretty face alone.

Like others, I have a few questions that I would like to hear answers for before I contribute.

a) Given the huge sales of the book, why can't AHA afford the security herself?

b) What about her employers who, I gather, are also pretty well-funded. Is it too much for them?

c) She's a prime asset to her publishers. What is stopping them from protecting a lucrative source like her?

d) Why doesn't the US govt grant her asylum and protection or send here back to Holland, where they are willing to protect her?

I think these are quite reasonable questions and on what basis do you say that we do not deserve answers ?
The amount of money might be trivial to you, but it's a matter of principle.

I have a $50 check waiting to be sent as soon as I can get some convincing answers from her or Sam or anyone else in the know.

I am also willing to contribute ten times that amount if she announces a lecture tour of a Muslim country. After all, she can't be a real 'beacon of hope' to Muslim women who suffer every day, while she sticks to the lecture halls of New York and Washington.

76. D'Souza - Nothing to Refute Here

Comment #86655 by Paine on November 9, 2007 at 9:45 pm

I hope D'souza has the guts to respond. The twit is known to lurk around these pages, trolling for out-of-context quotes he can use for his self-aggrandizement.

If he has read this( and Im pretty sure he reads anything with his name in it) and if he is man enough( which I seriously doubt) he'd put finger to keyboard and respond.

What say, Dinesh?

77. Debate between Christopher Hitchens and Dinesh D'Souza

Comment #82610 by Paine on October 27, 2007 at 12:26 am

Hitchens did alright, I thought. On the socio-political-historical aspect, he owned D'souza.
On the scientific aspects though, he was quite lacking and let Dinesh get away with murder. I dont blame him at all, but it was unfortunate that Dinesh would stoop to misrepresent the facts.

I think the key is that the audience seemed completely science-illiterate and swallowed Dinesh's nonsense whole. Any group of halfway decent science students would have ripped him to shreds the moment he brought up that rubbish about natural 'law' and science being an 'act of faith'.
I cannot assume that any responsible adult could be mistaken on these points, and therefore am forced to conclude that D'souza was being deliberately misleading.


PS. I dont know much about this D'souza specimen, but I must say his interview with Stephen Colbert was a real pleasure to watch. Makes you wonder if the only way to defeat fraudulent bombast is with your own fraudulent bombast!

78. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, etc. were atheists, and they were terrible! Answer that!

Comment #81475 by Paine on October 24, 2007 at 7:42 pm

Here are some replies that can be used.

1. Hitler never said he was an atheist. he did say he was a Christian. YOU justify Hitler, and then I will justify Stalin.

2. None of Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, Napoleon, Cortes etc. believed in Pixies. That shows the moral deficiency of non-Pixie religions like Christianity.

3. Absence of belief is not moral philosophy. You have more in common with Genghis Khan than I do with Stalin.

4. Im not sure about this one, but I cant think of a single person killed by any of the above(or anyone else) because they were not atheists. Yet I can think of thousands killed because they were not Christians/Muslims/etc.

79. Sam Harris seems like a nice fellow, but very confused

Comment #77249 by Paine on October 8, 2007 at 8:53 pm

Without trying to sound confused, I would have to say they are both right. PZ in the short term, and Sam in the long one.

It is an issue of simple demographics. As long as we are in a minority, we will be labeled, like it or not. But the moment we reach a majority (or a substantial proportion) of the population, I think we should speedily and wholeheartedly rid ourselves of the word.

'Abolitionist' used to be a term of ridicule in the Old South. Then people adopted it as label of pride. Now it is completely unnecessary. 'Atheist' should go the same way.

80. The Price of Freedom

Comment #77243 by Paine on October 8, 2007 at 8:28 pm

What Hitch says is all very fine and true, but in fairness, she can not expect the Dutch govt. to indefinitely provide her security if she is not willing to stay in Holland.

81. Richard Dawkins at the Edinburgh Book Festival

Comment #65680 by Paine on August 25, 2007 at 2:09 pm

yeah, I would agree that in that position if your safety is at risk to publish a caveat saying that it is the violence and not fear of offence that prevent the publishing.

Ideally, all of them should have collectively agreed to go ahead and publish. It is an indictment of the journalistic community that they failed to stand together when their profession was threatened.

82. Richard Dawkins at the Edinburgh Book Festival

Comment #65669 by Paine on August 25, 2007 at 12:50 pm

Giskard and monoape. I think what Dawkins meant by prudence was the intimidation and violence(real or perceived), not pandering to religious sensibilities.
It's easy for us to be judgemental, but when your employees face injury and possibly death, it's not immoral to make their safety a priority.

just my 2 cents worth... RD does not need 'team orders' to be successful ;)

83. A Matter of Faith

Comment #64786 by Paine on August 21, 2007 at 9:36 pm

Sorry to interrupt the party, but am I the only one who finds Ms Sweeney hugely irritating? Her whiny squeals grate my ears and her 'jokes' are nauseatingly dull.

Good on her for having the courage to come out and stand up for herself. I just wish she'd shut up about it.

P.S. would love to see Hitch destroy Prothero in a debate. Now THAT would be funny.