Comments by Titania

51. The Religious Support Behind Proposition 8

Comment #293125 by Titania on November 28, 2008 at 1:50 pm

2452. Comment #293115 by Bernstein

Because they aren't trying to gain momentum.

Again, I ask you, should black people have been satisfied to sit at the back of the bus since it was such a minor inconvenience?

Should we have called inter-racial marriages something different so racists wouldn’t be offended?

Should women have stayed in the kitchen and not fought for the right to vote?

Why would any oppressed group not try to gain momentum when the cause is equality?

Again, what is it that is going to happen to society if gays are allowed to marry? You have been asked this a thousand times. Please answer it.

52. The Religious Support Behind Proposition 8

Comment #293116 by Titania on November 28, 2008 at 1:44 pm

2427. Comment #293086 by Quetzalcoatl

Quetz, you have been brillant on this thread.

53. The Religious Support Behind Proposition 8

Comment #293109 by Titania on November 28, 2008 at 1:38 pm

2420. Comment #293078 by Frankus1122

No.

54. The Religious Support Behind Proposition 8

Comment #293106 by Titania on November 28, 2008 at 1:37 pm

2417. Comment #293074 by DarwinsPitbull

DP, we are busy with one irrational person who keeps resetting, we don't have time right now to reeducate you for the umpteenth time.

55. Does Religion Make You Nice?

Comment #293095 by Titania on November 28, 2008 at 1:26 pm

407. Comment #292411 by jgirolamo

Here is one more link you may find interesting and informative.

http://preposterousuniverse.com/writings/cosmologyprimer/expanding.html

I should also add that the implications of this research may mean that other universes exist outside our own and that the big bang is not the beginning of everything (for want of a better term.) There appears to be no necessity to postulate a supernatural being as a creator for the universe. Since you disagree, please tell me why and what evidence you have to support your contention.

The other mind-boggling concept is that there may be no such thing as nothing. Creationists are fond of making the statement that something cannot arise from nothing. Well, if you read up on the subject, you will find that quantum fluctuations likely occur even in a vacuum (one definition of nothing.) It’s hard to get my mind around this concept that “nothing” may not exist, except that it may be true on a quantum level.

Please let me know what you think about all this. Thanks.

56. Does Religion Make You Nice?

Comment #293094 by Titania on November 28, 2008 at 1:26 pm

407. Comment #292411 by jgirolamo

God operates outside of the physical laws, I don't suppose he would be God if he couldn't, Afterall he created these laws

How do you know this? What is your evidence?

Anyway, Where did everything come from?

For a long time, I had a problem understanding how the universe could exist without being created. I think this was because everyone always told me that the universe is so big and complex and this can’t possibly come from nothing, therefore, it must have been created by a supernatural being. Then I wondered, where did the supernatural being come from? Isn’t it simpler (or at least just as simple) to believe that the universe has always existed rather than that god has always existed? So I started to research the subject. I read everything I could find on the subject from scientists, and I recently attended the Skeptics Society Origins conference at Caltech where this issue was addressed by some top-notch scientists.

I also researched opposing views. I read the Bible cover to cover seven times and I read what many theists (of many different religions) have to say on the subject. I could not find a single shred of evidence presented by any theist that god exists or that any god is responsible for the existence of the universe. I could not find a single theist who could provide any evidence that any god existed with the attributes of any particular conception of god.

In fact, I found most of the attributes of these supposed gods to be reprehensible. (A topic for another time, but I learned enough to make me see Christopher Hitchens’s point of view that anti-theism is a much more moral stance than theism of any stripe.)

In order to discuss this with you, I would like to know what you think since just saying the world or the universe was created does not really tell me what you think about the details.

How do you think the universe was created and when?

You will agree that there was a big bang? If not, why not?

The exciting thing is that some scientists are researching whether there is evidence that our universe is a bubble of sorts that popped into existence as a result of a quantum fluctuation in another universe.

The links below will give you some idea of this research.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7440217.stm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_inflation

http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/gr-qc/pdf/0505/0505037v1.pdf

http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/hep-th/pdf/0410/0410270v1.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_cosmology

I have to split my post since I can't post all the links. So please see my next post.

57. Does Religion Make You Nice?

Comment #293054 by Titania on November 28, 2008 at 12:47 pm

438. Comment #293009 by Wosret

Mitchell, great post, except I object to the use of the word "charlatan." Quack is a much better and more descriptive word.

The Fairy Queen (me) has pronounced "charlatan" to be verboten.

58. The Religious Support Behind Proposition 8

Comment #293011 by Titania on November 28, 2008 at 12:00 pm

Bernstein,

Were the issues important enough for you to vote in the recent presidential election?

59. The Religious Support Behind Proposition 8

Comment #293002 by Titania on November 28, 2008 at 11:51 am

2362. Comment #292999 by Cartomancer

Aye

60. The Religious Support Behind Proposition 8

Comment #292995 by Titania on November 28, 2008 at 11:44 am

2353. Comment #292982 by jabber

Bernstein creeps on in his petty pace from day to day...

61. The Religious Support Behind Proposition 8

Comment #292987 by Titania on November 28, 2008 at 11:37 am

Bernstein,

Be sure to attend the next planning session of the Gay and Lesbian Atheists’ Conspiracy to Overthrow RD.net aka GALACTOR in Dublin, Ireland July 10-12, 2009. We’ll let you in on all our secrets. ;)

Please email rationalmama@gmail.com if you plan to come or want to speak.

62. The Religious Support Behind Proposition 8

Comment #292965 by Titania on November 28, 2008 at 10:56 am

2337. Comment #292960 by kkelly

kkelly, not hours, days.

63. The Religious Support Behind Proposition 8

Comment #292963 by Titania on November 28, 2008 at 10:54 am

2314. Comment #292932 by Bernstein

I have yet to hear any reasoned arguments, that examine the issue without bias, from both points of view, that says I should go out of my way to support gay rights.

Having gotten to know you a bit on this thread, I would say that what we are really asking is that you not go out of your way NOT to support gay rights, especially because of your dislike of one gay person.

This would be your first baby step on the road to rationality.

Also, could you specify what both points of view area and to what bias you are referring?

2330. Comment #292951 by Bernstein

I still don't feel the urge to go out of my way to support gay rights (let me be specific, please). Maybe part of the reason I don't is because I'm not gay myself (but I don't think that's my fault). I also don't think this makes me a bigot.

You said previously that you would not vote for gay rights because you dislike one gay man. That is being a bigot.

Also, voting for gay rights is not going out of your way. If you believe in equality and you are not a bigot, how is voting going out of your way?

64. The Religious Support Behind Proposition 8

Comment #292948 by Titania on November 28, 2008 at 10:37 am

2316. Comment #292934 by bendigeidfran

LOL, although it probably ties with Mein Kampf.

OK OK - you all knew it had to come down to a Nazi comparison eventually. It's the law. Besides, Steve started it with the pink triangle.

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65. The Religious Support Behind Proposition 8

Comment #292926 by Titania on November 28, 2008 at 10:02 am

2306. Comment #292923 by mordacious1

This is why I almost hope they won’t grant cert until the composition of the court swings more to the left. Hopefully, Obama will be able to do this within the next few years. I do want change to come NOW, but if we force the issue too soon, it could backfire.

66. The Religious Support Behind Proposition 8

Comment #292924 by Titania on November 28, 2008 at 9:58 am

2302. Comment #292919 by Apathy personified

You may find it helpful to check out some of my previous comments on this thread wherein I wrote about how US federal law defines marriage as between a man and a woman (Defense of Marriage Act or DOMA) so any federal benefit such as being able to immigrate a spouse or collect spousal benefits under federal disability, social security or federal pensions, etc. require that “spouses” only include marriages between men and women, thereby excluding any homosexual couple in a civil union.

Google, for some strange reason, is not working for me right now so I can’t link you to DOMA.

67. The Religious Support Behind Proposition 8

Comment #292921 by Titania on November 28, 2008 at 9:51 am

2301. Comment #292918 by BrandySpears

It's frustrating, but I think change is in the air. We have a much better chance of changing the rhetoric during Obama's administration. One of the most damaging effects of the conservatives being in power for so long is how they were able to skew media and public perception to conform to their rhetoric.

2302. Comment #292919 by Apathy personified

Yes, but we are talking about a divided America where labels apparently matter to people like Bernstein.

Brandy and I are talking about how to move a step closer to true equality given the current political climate.

68. The Religious Support Behind Proposition 8

Comment #292912 by Titania on November 28, 2008 at 9:35 am

2292. Comment #292905 by BrandySpears

Brandy,

I would rather wait until he has had a chance to appoint some more liberal members.

I am also hoping with a Democrat majority, Congress will get rid of the Defense of Marriage Act, first.

I can't say that I am in favor of Obama's stance on this. I think he cannot come out for gay marriage as it would be political suicide, but for now civil unions may be the best we can do.

Edit: 2294. Comment #292909 by mordacious1

Great minds think alike.

69. The Religious Support Behind Proposition 8

Comment #292906 by Titania on November 28, 2008 at 9:29 am

Brandy,

Bernstein never responded to my post here:

1841. Comment #292205 by Titania in response to his post 1611. Comment #291823 by Bernstein wherein he said:

You should not take advantage of the real suffering endured by other minorities to rally people into supporting your cause which is basically for something comparatively trivial (the right to "marriage", word for word, per se.

I asked him:

Let me ask you if black people suffered any real inconvenience by being made to sit at the back of the bus? They had a place to sit and they got where they were going and they weren’t denied transportation. Should we still have laws or policies that require black people to sit at the back of the bus since it does not really inconvenience them other than having to take a few extra steps?

I don’t think he gets what equality means and why being denied equality on the basis of something like skin color, sexual preference, or social class is so wrong.

70. The Religious Support Behind Proposition 8

Comment #292904 by Titania on November 28, 2008 at 9:19 am

2287. Comment #292898 by hungarianelephant

So true.

It does take more than Supreme Court decisions, but they are instrumental in changing the dialogue and the moral and social zeitgeist. This was one of the main reasons why it was so important that Obama win the election.

71. The Religious Support Behind Proposition 8

Comment #292900 by Titania on November 28, 2008 at 9:15 am

I highly recommend the book Children of Crisis by Robert Coles, a Harvard psychiatrist. It should be required reading. People like Bernstein and DP should have to read it twice. It is condensed into one book from five.

Dr. Coles actually spent a great deal of time in the 60’s and later in various communities (migrant workers, African-American, ghettos, Native American, Eskimo, etc.) studying how children coped in various advantageous and disadvantageous circumstances.

http://www.amazon.com/Children-Crisis-Robert-Coles/dp/0316151025/ref=pd_bbs_sr_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1227892122&sr=8-3

The description from amazon.com:

Product Description
In the 1950s Robert Coles began studying, living among, and, above all, listening to American children. The results of his efforts--revealed in five volumes published between 1967 and 1977--constitute one of the most searching and vigorous social studies ever undertaken by one person in the United States. Here, heard often in their own voices, are America's "children of crisis": African American children caught in the throes of the South's racial integration; The children of impoverished migrant workers in Appalachia; Children whose families were transformed by the migration from South to North, from rural to urban communities; Latino, Native American, and Eskimo children in the poorest communities of the American West; The children of America's wealthiest families confronting the burden of their own privilege. This volume restores to print a masterwork of psychological and sociological inquiry--a book that, in its focus on how children learn and develop in the face of rapid change and social upheaval, speaks directly and pointedly to our own times.

About the Author
Robert Coles is a professor of psychiatry and medical humanities at the Harvard Medical School, a research psychiatrist for the Harvard University Health Services, and the James Agee Professor of Social Ethics at Harvard College. He lives in Massachusetts.

Edited to add text accidentally omitted from cut and paste.

72. The Religious Support Behind Proposition 8

Comment #292894 by Titania on November 28, 2008 at 9:07 am

2283. Comment #292893 by hungarianelephant

No, I am sorry to say that I missed it.

73. The Religious Support Behind Proposition 8

Comment #292892 by Titania on November 28, 2008 at 9:04 am

2274. Comment #292882 by Peacebeuponme

Why?

74. The Religious Support Behind Proposition 8

Comment #292891 by Titania on November 28, 2008 at 9:03 am

2277. Comment #292886 by mordacious1

Mordy, decius is a genius, too.

75. The Religious Support Behind Proposition 8

Comment #292890 by Titania on November 28, 2008 at 9:02 am

2272. Comment #292880 by BrandySpears

Brandy,

You are so right about separate not being equal.

Bernstein could stand some education on the subject.

http://www.yale.edu/ynhti/pubs/A5/wolff.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plessy_v._Ferguson

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_v._Board_of_Education

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=347&invol=483

The Supreme Court in Brown said:

To separate them from others of similar age and qualifications solely because of their race generates a feeling of inferiority as to their status in the community that may affect their hearts and minds in a way unlikely ever to be undone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separate_but_equal

BTW, Glad you're back and in top form, too.

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76. The Religious Support Behind Proposition 8

Comment #292879 by Titania on November 28, 2008 at 8:45 am

2253. Comment #292856 by Bernstein

I have no obligation to the gay rights movement. Never had, and thanks to you, never will.

True colors, again, Dr. Peacock.

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77. The Religious Support Behind Proposition 8

Comment #292872 by Titania on November 28, 2008 at 8:42 am

2265. Comment #292871 by decius

Now you tell me after I deleted all mine!!!

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78. The Religious Support Behind Proposition 8

Comment #292860 by Titania on November 28, 2008 at 8:34 am

2236. Comment #292835 by Bernstein

The first time it cost you a vote. This time, it's cost you potentially thousands. Go to hell.

What exactly are you ranting about? How are you going to get thousands to vote against homosexual rights because of Steve?

What has Steve said that is so offensive?

79. The Religious Support Behind Proposition 8

Comment #292851 by Titania on November 28, 2008 at 8:27 am

2242. Comment #292843 by hungarianelephant

Nice try, but it's not a triangle. :)

80. The Religious Support Behind Proposition 8

Comment #292832 by Titania on November 28, 2008 at 8:16 am

2229. Comment #292826 by Hellene

Happy Happy Birthday, Hellene!

81. The Religious Support Behind Proposition 8

Comment #292823 by Titania on November 28, 2008 at 8:13 am

hungarian,

Can you turn the triangle upside down?

Edit: can you make it rainbow colored?

82. The Religious Support Behind Proposition 8

Comment #292822 by Titania on November 28, 2008 at 8:13 am

2220. Comment #292815 by hungarianelephant

Another show off, but I love it!