51. We need to stop being such cowards about Islam

Comment #229783 by BFKate on August 14, 2008 at 3:07 am

Stewart what about the strongest ones? To agree with me that Hari is a preening little egoist you'd need to do a lot of reading. It's my view. I can't do anything other than say that. That his view happens to coincide this time doesn't make me want to defend him. I think it's a fake argument. Like Mussolini I love trains that run on time that doesn't make me a supporter. I say Judge the person's performance not the opinion. If I call you a cunt but then say I like your dress does that make us friends?

52. We need to stop being such cowards about Islam

Comment #229779 by BFKate on August 14, 2008 at 3:02 am

Peacebeuponme

Internet discussion rule #238: Whenever your view on a public individual is opposed by 3 or more people, group them together as 'followers' or 'groupies' of said person. This attacks their objectivty and avoids actually dealing with the issues they bring up

53. We need to stop being such cowards about Islam

Comment #229775 by BFKate on August 14, 2008 at 2:58 am

So far I've been twice accused of attacking Hari because he is less than perfect. I don't demand perfection from anyone let alone public commentators. I ask that they are trustworthy.

Peacebeuponme. You don't get that it is my view that Hari is a preening little egotist. I have read A LOT of his work I have spent time listening to him. Because I can't be arsed looking out a load of articles for you doesn't mean I shouldn't EXPRESS MY OPINION on a forum. So far most of the posts here support Hari. I don't - even though his views coincide with mine this time. Hari has never once said anything thought provoking. He only ever jumps on the bandwagon. That is all. You told me not to express and opinion unless I backed it up with references for you. If you can't be bothered to check up on the people you support don't try and make it my job.

54. We need to stop being such cowards about Islam

Comment #229768 by BFKate on August 14, 2008 at 2:51 am

Goldy

Railing against him doesn't change the fact that people believe what he writes, the people feel the same way as him.
So don't go trying to defame him or belittle him - his views are topical and popular.

55. We need to stop being such cowards about Islam

Comment #229760 by BFKate on August 14, 2008 at 2:40 am

Eventhorizon

No. I just dared express a view about Hari that isn't in line with his neo con groupies. I'm being check mated by the rapier like debate on here. I mean it doesn't get any finer than "BlowJobKate" and "resist laying down such thoughtless rubbish"

Like my favourite murdering psychopath says.


"Fuck all you assholes."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hBSGEzpw-8

56. We need to stop being such cowards about Islam

Comment #229757 by BFKate on August 14, 2008 at 2:37 am

Peacebeuponme

Thanks for telling me not to have an opinion. Silly bastard.

57. We need to stop being such cowards about Islam

Comment #229752 by BFKate on August 14, 2008 at 2:31 am

While you may never find someone perfect that articulates your views it at least needs to be someone credible. Someone you can trust. That's not a demand for perfection.

58. We need to stop being such cowards about Islam

Comment #229748 by BFKate on August 14, 2008 at 2:26 am

Eh? Since when did someone's egoism make his/her opinions untrustworthy?

59. We need to stop being such cowards about Islam

Comment #229745 by BFKate on August 14, 2008 at 2:20 am

Fanusi

You called me BJKate. You little prick is that a piece of clever sexual innuendo? BlowJobKate?

About what I'd expect from someone who needs Johann Hari to tell them what to think.

60. We need to stop being such cowards about Islam

Comment #229740 by BFKate on August 14, 2008 at 2:17 am

That's right. It is an Ad hominem attack. Which invalidates everything I have to say. Fucking NOT.

I agree with the article. Gettit. I AGREE with the viewpoint. My point isn't the feckin article. It's that the man is utterly untrustworthy. Dismissing my point as ad hominem is also missing my point. Ad hominem is not invalid. Well, it is if you're pure bread middle class & never bothered by strong feelings. Like having to trust the people who allegedly speak publicly ``for'' my position.

61. We need to stop being such cowards about Islam

Comment #229738 by BFKate on August 14, 2008 at 2:10 am

suffolkthinker

Quite frankly I don't care what you think about the author from other sources, I completely agree with this article and support what is says wholeheartedly.

62. We need to stop being such cowards about Islam

Comment #229735 by BFKate on August 14, 2008 at 2:06 am

PJG
It's not ad hominem. Ad hominem would be me calling him names for no reason. My arguement is that his position as an egoist makes his opinion untrustworthy.

From his wikipedia page.

Hari seems to be a pugilist who enjoys political arguments. His website has stated:

"Johann has been called 'Maoist' by Nick Cohen, "Stalinist" by Noam Chomsky, 'Horrible Hari' by Niall Ferguson, "an uppity little queer" by Bruce Anderson, 'a drug addict' by George Galloway, "fat" by the Dalai Lama and "a cunt" by [the boyband] Busted.[22]

[edit] With George Galloway

Hari has engaged in a long disagreement with his Member of Parliament, George Galloway who he accused of "supporting a string of dictators" and being a remnant of the part of the left that supported Stalinism.[23] Galloway contested this.[24]

[edit] With Niall Ferguson

In 2006, Hari engaged in a public debate with the historians Niall Ferguson and Lawrence James in The Sunday Times, Daily Mail and The Independent about the overall effect of the British Empire in India. Ferguson viewed British colonialism as a positive thing for India, whilst Hari argued that the British Empire was a form of totalitarianism comparable with Stalinism.[25][26][27][28]

[edit] With the Chapman Brothers

In 2007, Hari criticised the Chapman Brothers for adopting an anti-Enlightenment philosophy, and for Jake Chapman saying that the boys who murdered Liverpool toddler Jamie Bulger performed "a good social service"[29]. Jake Chapman responded by calling Hari "fat-faced ugly [and] four-eyed" and "a fascist", and claimed the Bulger quote and others had been "stripped from the serious debate in which they belong"[30].

[edit] With Mark Steyn

Hari has frequently disagreed with Canadian writer Mark Steyn, describing him as "vile" [18] and an 'uneducated former disc jockey'. [19]

Defending the use of the word 'Islamofascism' in some contexts, Hari wrote: "It has been picked up by some people, like the vile Mark Steyn, who seem to think that all Islam is evil. I dislike all religions and would happily see the whittling away of every last church and mosque, but to imply that all Islam is on a par with al-Qa'eda is grotesque." [20] In reply, Steyn wrote in The Spectator: "Johann Hari casually reveals that he'd like to see the end of 'every last church and mosque'. Surely Islamophobia isn't any more politically correct for being subsumed within theophobia, is it? The assumption of virtue by radical secularists comes so easily you wonder whether they ever stop to think it through." [21]

Steyn later wrote "his characterization of me as an extremist Islamophobic wingnut war-drunk loon is uncannily accurate. I think he has the hots for me." [22].

In a review of Steyn's book 'America Alone', Hari condemned passages he argued showed Steyn to be celebrating that more "white babies" are born in the US, and his prediction that there will be "evacuations" of white people from France by 2015. [23].

However, when complaints were submitted regarding Steyn's writings to the Human Rights Commissions in Canada, Hari defended his right to free speech. [24] He wrote: "The free speech of a man I loathe is being threatened. ....We can get into a puerile game where we all shriek to silence the people we disagree with. Or we can grow up, and have an argument."

[edit] With Nick Cohen

In 2007 Hari reviewed Nick Cohen's book What's Left in the American Dissent magazine, where he called for Cohen and others (like Hari himself) who supported the Iraq war from a left-wing perspective to admit they had been wrong and had profoundly misunderstood neoconservatism.[31]. Cohen argued that Hari's review was "Maoist" and "deceitful".[32]. Hari responded by offering quotes from Cohen's writing which he argues backed up his claims and accusing Cohen of "a baffling denial of his own words".[33] Soon after they were both nominated for the Orwell prize, which Hari won.

63. We need to stop being such cowards about Islam

Comment #229730 by BFKate on August 14, 2008 at 2:02 am

Hari is a member of the modern William Joyce club.
(A club I am now founding.)

64. We need to stop being such cowards about Islam

Comment #229727 by BFKate on August 14, 2008 at 1:55 am

PJG You're wrong.

Hari has form on this stuff. He even managed to get Noam Chomsky calling him names. As far as putting his head over the parapet goes - please give me a break. He's another priviledged media ego sitting pretty & getting paid a wad. He's a Dick. If you spend more than 30 seconds letting him tickle your outrage gland and actually go and find out about the man you'll see that.

Edited for spelling - though I don't know why.

65. We need to stop being such cowards about Islam

Comment #229724 by BFKate on August 14, 2008 at 1:43 am

Can I please ask that you all go over to the comments section on the Independent site and express your support for Johann Hari. There are an awful lot of ignorant dimwits posting there at the moment

66. We need to stop being such cowards about Islam

Comment #229722 by BFKate on August 14, 2008 at 1:37 am

And Fuck you utelme. Calling people you don't know victims is a sign of a half wit. I am not

"trying to talk the bully out of it, crying for mummy and not lifting a finger to help yourself."

I'm standing up to these tossers every day. Ever been assaulted utelme? Ever been in the postion where you've had to defy the cops to their faces? Ever been Gay bashed? Bet the answer is no. Ever been called a bitch by some random bloke who doesn't like that you've stood up to his bullying?

From the sound of it you're probably one of those cowards that fucks off abroad after depressing the rest of us with your inadequate social skills and lamentations that England(sic) is doomed.

67. We need to stop being such cowards about Islam

Comment #229719 by BFKate on August 14, 2008 at 1:28 am

Before we go all gooey over Hari's article remember that first and foremost he's a sweaty little self publicist. If you told this prick that paedophilia was the new in thing he'd be publicly professing his love of children. There is nothing he won't do to further develop his own media image. This has to be the only time I'd dig a fatwa.

68. A third of Muslim students back killings

Comment #220312 by BFKate on July 28, 2008 at 9:43 am

Mitchell Gilks. ;-)

69. A third of Muslim students back killings

Comment #220309 by BFKate on July 28, 2008 at 9:38 am

`Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe...


"Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
The frumious Bandersnatch!"

He took his vorpal sword in hand:
Long time the manxome foe he sought --
So rested he by the Tumtum tree,
And stood awhile in thought.

And, as in uffish thought he stood,
The Jabberwock, with eyes of flame,
Came whiffling through the tulgey wood,
And burbled as it came!

One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back.

"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.


`Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.

70. A third of Muslim students back killings

Comment #220305 by BFKate on July 28, 2008 at 9:34 am

F*ck it. Why don't you just settle this like real men and start killing each other?

71. A third of Muslim students back killings

Comment #220299 by BFKate on July 28, 2008 at 9:30 am

Ten million black people swimming to Africa with a jew under each arm.

72. A third of Muslim students back killings

Comment #220290 by BFKate on July 28, 2008 at 9:24 am

How do you define the American dream?

73. A third of Muslim students back killings

Comment #220287 by BFKate on July 28, 2008 at 9:22 am

People should look up the meaning of words before bandying them about. I was wrong about blowback as someone has just been wrong about their use of anarchy.

74. A third of Muslim students back killings

Comment #220263 by BFKate on July 28, 2008 at 9:06 am

From the article;

"Significant numbers appear to hold beliefs which contravene democratic values,"

75. A Holocaust Denier Hits Manhattan (And Hearts Hitchens)

Comment #219777 by BFKate on July 27, 2008 at 2:09 pm

Did I call him stupid?

I don't think he's stupid. I just don't think he's as great a thinker as he thinks he is.

76. A Holocaust Denier Hits Manhattan (And Hearts Hitchens)

Comment #219743 by BFKate on July 27, 2008 at 1:44 pm

Christopher Hitchens reminds me of William Joyce. He's a great cheerleader for war that other people will be picking up the tab for with their lives. He is always extremely selective with his chronologies, as this is the only way to justify his position. There is nuthin Orwellian about the man and it royally pisses me off when he takes Eric Arthur Blair's name and reputation in vain. Always suspicious of people when they angle to wear the mantle of great men. Like the other Blair and his friend G.W. going for a Churchillian aura in the lead up to the war in the demented slaughterhouse formerly known as Iraq.

77. A Holocaust Denier Hits Manhattan (And Hearts Hitchens)

Comment #219695 by BFKate on July 27, 2008 at 11:31 am

god
is not
G r e a t
and
neither is
H i t c h e n s

78. A Holocaust Denier Hits Manhattan (And Hearts Hitchens)

Comment #219662 by BFKate on July 27, 2008 at 11:01 am

Black Wolf;

Your crush on BFKate's Miss Piggy is solely your problem

79. A Holocaust Denier Hits Manhattan (And Hearts Hitchens)

Comment #219481 by BFKate on July 27, 2008 at 3:01 am

Irving's work may not be all bad but it is the next best thing - it's utterly untrustworthy. Either way it is valueless. Noam Chomsky is a much better source for `controversial' defenses of freedom of speech. Specifically in relation to another holocaust denier Robert Faurisson. Hitchens could be described as a hypocrite (by me anyway.) I don't need sweaty, fevered egos like Hitchens on my side. He'll happily write one thing but his behavior at times undermines his principles.

80. A Holocaust Denier Hits Manhattan (And Hearts Hitchens)

Comment #219476 by BFKate on July 27, 2008 at 2:47 am

Crono 454,

My mistake. I have read about Irving but the Hitchens reference was the first time I'd heard that. Should have realized there'd be more to it than Irving claims - proof of how if Irving told you what the weather was you'd still need to go outside and check for yourself. Cheers for the link. Still I can't be arsed with Hitchens and his framing of himself as the new Orwell. He is an also ran with ideas beyond his capabilities. A.K.A C.A March (join it) Hitchens.

I also agree that jail for thought crimes is bad. But there are so many examples of it now. The problem is that it's easy to say Irving shouldn't be jailed for his nonsense but there are some thought crimes that it seems we accept it is alright to punish.

81. A Holocaust Denier Hits Manhattan (And Hearts Hitchens)

Comment #219463 by BFKate on July 27, 2008 at 2:25 am

This is an odd little publicity seeking piece. Deborah Lipstadt has it spot on. Holocaust denial is such a no brainer that she refused to even engage in debate with Irving. He's a clown and so is Hitchens. A great book about the Irving via Lipstadt trial is Telling lies about Hitler
by Richard J Evans. Irving lies about evidence and was found not be a great historian (Hitchen's words) but a devious thimble-rigger of history. The reason I think the piece is odd is because almost anyone with a camera could make the same program. Irving is an easy target for lazy journalists and this stuff always backfires. You put Irving and his acolytes on tape to point fun at them and ``challenge'' them and you get nothing useful, you give them air time to fire these bullets of shit into the brains of other gullible people. It's a no brainer, leave it alone and it will die because the facts of the holocaust are undeniable.

82. Anti-Evolution Film Misappropriates the Holocaust

Comment #173772 by BFKate on May 1, 2008 at 8:30 am

Being defended by the ADL is like being defended by the mafia or Donald Rumsfeld. They called Amnesty International borderline anti-semitic. Bullshit merchants of the highest order.

83. Inadequate, private and late apology with grotesquely inadequate excuse

Comment #167410 by BFKate on April 24, 2008 at 2:27 am

Hey Cleetis,

If my statement about her representing the majority of her constituents was read in context you'd understand what I meant. Instead you are mis characterizing what I said. She cannot represent the views of all of her constituents because she would have to advocate for every kind of crackpot or crypto-fascist idea going. What you have described is her duty to represent the rights of her constituents. A different thing to the subject being discussed. As for feeling safe, yip. Feel fine thanks for asking. People like Davis with their half baked view point don't threaten me in any way. The people that scare me are the shriekers who can't cope with opposing opinions. They are the ones who exact a disproportionate price when they perceive someone to have "spoken out of turn". It's a reaction that goes hand in hand with sensibilities I think are silly.

. Comment #160240 by Epinephrine on April 13, 2008 at 8:45 pm


Glad it's not necessarily me, very generous of you

84. Inadequate, private and late apology with grotesquely inadequate excuse

Comment #159995 by BFKate on April 13, 2008 at 1:53 pm

whose views is a Representative hired by the people to represent?

85. Inadequate, private and late apology with grotesquely inadequate excuse

Comment #159980 by BFKate on April 13, 2008 at 1:43 pm

...everyone else is entitled to rip the shit out of her for saying it. Freedom of speech takes no sides

86. Inadequate, private and late apology with grotesquely inadequate excuse

Comment #159837 by BFKate on April 13, 2008 at 8:20 am

. Comment #159828 by Bonzai on April 13, 2008 at 8:02 am
Here we are promoting "conversational" intolerance regarding religion yet some people think saying atheism sucks is "bigotry" without a hint of irony, would you say this regarding Islam, Christianity, capitalism or communism?

87. Inadequate, private and late apology with grotesquely inadequate excuse

Comment #159826 by BFKate on April 13, 2008 at 7:55 am

Good morning prettygoodformonkeys,

Hope you slept well. A question for you, is a person stripped of the right to speak their mind just because they are elected to public office? I had a look at Dr Benway's post at 119. Pretty interesting, but for the same token I can also tell you about social workers and police officers who save lives because of the authority they carry.

Shannon Matthews springs to mind as a current example. As for the anti person analogy. I need to mull this over a bit more.

88. Inadequate, private and late apology with grotesquely inadequate excuse

Comment #159749 by BFKate on April 13, 2008 at 3:13 am

prettygoodformonkeys

How can you continue, in this thread, to maintain that her abuse and attempted ejection (while performing her duties of office) of someone from a public process - just because he is an atheist - is merely an expression of opinion,

...and should just be sprayed with a lemon-scented odor-masking agent like, oh let's use, Free Speech?

Let's talk about witch hunts then. For fuck's sake, if ejecting someone from a public process isn't a witch hunt, then what is?

Flaccid logic; you should write papers for ID.

89. Inadequate, private and late apology with grotesquely inadequate excuse

Comment #159328 by BFKate on April 12, 2008 at 1:04 am

"You need political power for a witch hunt, and for very obvious reasons, atheists do not have political power as a group and we probably never will."

The reaction to Ms Davis remarks isn't limited to atheists, I'm not just referring to opinion I've read on this forum. I don't think it is ridiculous to talk about witch hunts, witch hunts are popular among the easily offended. Impotent or otherwise.

90. Inadequate, private and late apology with grotesquely inadequate excuse

Comment #159325 by BFKate on April 12, 2008 at 12:51 am

sarah95

"We only said that she should own up to the opinion." I don't think she has a choice in this area, from what I've read it was a fairly public faux pas.

"As citizens we DO have the right to simply ask her to do so AND to say that her opinions make her unfit for office"
I agree you have the right to ASK her to leave office, I however hope she exercises her right to ignore your request.

As for her opinions making her unfit for office, I completely disagree. It's her performance in office that you should make this judgment on not her opinions.

91. Inadequate, private and late apology with grotesquely inadequate excuse

Comment #159322 by BFKate on April 12, 2008 at 12:35 am

sarah95

"To resign is to leave willingly. " It is also possible for an individual to be so pressurized that they resign unwillingly. It used to be called 'doing the decent thing' So yes people can call for Ms. Davis' to resign and that is just an opinion but what seems to be getting going around the hapless representative could so easily degenerate into a witch hunt. Forcing her to resign against her will because she committed a thought-crime would be more serious than Ms Davis' offense.

92. Inadequate, private and late apology with grotesquely inadequate excuse

Comment #159318 by BFKate on April 12, 2008 at 12:12 am

Epinephrine

"Sorry, but this (not necessarily you) is idiotic."

Glad it's not necessarily me, very generous of you.

The point that you make about the waitress and walking into an airport and shouting "I have a bomb" are not examples of freely expressing an opinion. They are both possibly illegal acts, in the UK the bomb example would lead to your fairly immediate arrest and might even lead to you getting shot dead (even here the cops at airports carry sub machine guns.) The subject of the hypothetical waitress' ire would, I suspect, have room to sue her and the restaurant. This is NOT what representative Davis did or what Salman Rushdie did or what the Danish cartoonists did. Or in fact what I'm talking about. If representative davis has done more than express a silly point of view then she should be brought to account. But she is entitled to say what she did and even how she did it.

93. Inadequate, private and late apology with grotesquely inadequate excuse

Comment #159152 by BFKate on April 11, 2008 at 1:58 pm

Quetzalcoatl

"it is hard to believe that a queer-hating surgeon, who might well despise and discriminate against gays in every other aspect of his life, would suddenly become even-handed when he had "one of them" on the operating table in front of him."

I accept that it's difficult but such a surgeon would run the risk of professional ruin and perhaps even prison if they weren't even handed with patients and they would know it.

94. Inadequate, private and late apology with grotesquely inadequate excuse

Comment #159143 by BFKate on April 11, 2008 at 1:44 pm

Quetzalcoatl

"Even if you do treat them, then it's more than likely that you would be less careful than with a straight person. Would that make you suitable for the job"

I really disagree that it's more likely that such a hypothetical person couldn't be trusted to be even handed. However if they were biased in their practical approach to work THAT would make them unsuitable.

(I mean if an actual bias became evident in their work. )

95. Inadequate, private and late apology with grotesquely inadequate excuse

Comment #159142 by BFKate on April 11, 2008 at 1:40 pm

Annabanana,

I do think it's possible for people to put personal feelings aside and do a professional job. I do also think it's a warning sign as well so I wouldn't accept it and just blithley go along with it, I'd challenge it.

96. Inadequate, private and late apology with grotesquely inadequate excuse

Comment #159137 by BFKate on April 11, 2008 at 1:33 pm

annabanana

"the constituents of her jurisdiction have every right to ask her to resign if she is not properly representing them"

I agree. They are directly affected by her ability to do her job. However, it's not clear whether or not Rep. Davis is good or bad at her job from this one opinion. Calling for her to resign based only on that seems a touch OTT.

97. Inadequate, private and late apology with grotesquely inadequate excuse

Comment #159130 by BFKate on April 11, 2008 at 1:24 pm

brian_d_w

"Does that include cases where speech causes direct harm? Fraud, incitement to riot and direct orders to someone to kill or injure someone are good examples of this."

Hmmm, again I am no expert in law but isn't that type of `free speech' already covered by criminal law? Aren't those examples of crossing from expressing an opinion to conspiring to commit a criminal act?

"Your definition is not specific enough. Taken as stated, no one should be denied a job for saying inappropriate things at an interview for example."

As for the job interview example, as a situation an interview is designed to uncover someone's suitability for a job so of course its ridiculous to say no one should be denied a job for saying inappropriate things in an job interview. However, having oddball opinions doesn't automatically exclude a person from a job either. If I say I hate queers but I happen to be a superb surgeon does that mean I can't be trusted to treat gay people? Or could it be that I can put my opinion to one side and treat every patient the same?

98. Inadequate, private and late apology with grotesquely inadequate excuse

Comment #159119 by BFKate on April 11, 2008 at 1:11 pm

Bonzai

"She has apologized, he has accepted it, I think it should be over. Let them vote her out if the electorates think that her views on atheism make her unfit for office. "

Hear hear. couldn't agree more.

99. Inadequate, private and late apology with grotesquely inadequate excuse

Comment #159116 by BFKate on April 11, 2008 at 1:03 pm

Diacanu

"If a teacher gets caught with a stack of kiddy-porn, and a bunch of NAMBLA literature, they fire his ass"

Again, don't know about the US but in the UK this would be an offence, not an opinion.

100. Inadequate, private and late apology with grotesquely inadequate excuse

Comment #159114 by BFKate on April 11, 2008 at 1:00 pm

brian_d_w

You said
"The freedom of speech is a very specific thing. It's the protection of citizens from government prosecution for any statements that they make."

I'm no expert on law and this sounds like a fairly legal definition of freedom of speech which is not the sense I use the phrase in. I do believe the freedom has to be absolute to have any value.